Posting on this forum

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

I thought I may as well explain why I no longer wish to post here.

It is not because I canno't take negative comments from other members, and that you can believe.

It is because I believe that no matter what one posts here it will always be argued by some members that your opinion is wrong because I don't understand the subject of how to fly gyroplanes.

Well I have to admit that I do not understand some of the opinions and beliefes posted here by some posters that are convinced that they are correct and everyone else must be wrong.

What I would suggest in closing is when the gyroplane group receive training that is structured like the rest of aviation whereby they take an indepth ground school and thereby understand the basics there will be a very big improvement in the group as a whole.

I noticed that Chris S. was lamenting that it is to bad that I don't build or fly gyros. Well Chris I hate to disappoint you but I have done both, and just to set you straight I found gyros to be the easiest of all flying machines to build and fly. And furthermore that opinion is based on being a professional pilot flying most everyhting known to man including heavy lift helicopters, to suggest that I would not understand gyros is ludicrous.

Meanwhile I really do not believe that I can add anything of value to this group and wish you all the best.

Chuck E.

[birdy]

To all posters and lurkers.

I somehow feel responsible for this loss of extensive aviation experiance,for this I am sincerily sorry.

Chuck E,I know your still lurki'n,it's not like your type to sulk.
Not having people agree with your oppinions,Hell man,you should try posting as a simple ozzy cow grower.I don't expect anyone to take what I say as gospel,but I do expect some respect for my oppinions,with are based on 2000 hours mustering.

I'v never once argued with you in respect to anything you have done,I have no idea what you have done.I'm not fool enough to argue about somthing I'v never done.

I'v only argued about things I'v have done.

Since you'v come down from the ceiling,your posts have become less irritable,which makes them more humerous and noteworthy.[not to mention gaining more respect from some of your detractours.]

But all that said,if you want to sulk,go ahead,I'v never begged for anything in my life,and I'm not going to start now.

[Brent_Brown]

Your post says it all.

[cgmg]

I don't know Chuck or Craig personally, so take this for what it's worth.

It won't change my life for the worse one iota if neither one of them ever post here again. Craig was an absolute zealot about gyros, and it was his way or the highway on everything. Anyone who did not agree with him, or did not understand his explanation, was an idiot. One of the reasons I hardly ever posted on the other forum was to avoid the venom from Craig. We all have had to work with someone like him, not by choice, but by need for an income. In my personal life, I do my best to avoid being around anyone like him. I visit this forum for enjoyment, and to glean what new info I can.

Regarding Chuck, when he gets upset, he just leaves the forum for awhile, which, again, is ok with me. We have a lot of other more helpful people on this forum who understand there are a lot of people on this forum who know little or nothing about gyros or flying science, but are anxious to learn.

In any area of life, there will always be people who do not believe or understand the laws of physics or science. Two examples: people who don't believe seat belts save lives and injuries, and people who don't believe they will get cancer from smoking. Nothing you or anyone else can do will change their minds, so why get mad about it? Just move on the people you can help.

I believe we have 8-10 extremely knowledgable individuals who contribute to this forum in a respectable, friendly manner, and I would much rather learn from them, than Chuck or Craig. And to Chuck or Craig, no offense intended, this is just my personal philosophy.

Mark

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Birdie:

I will eventually be in Australia connected with my flying business, so may someday run into you. I have to see Paul B. and go flying with him when I'm there.

You had zero to do with my decision not to answer posts here.

I started on Norms forum about eight years ago for only one reason and that was to advise gyro pilots that the RAF 2000 was a very flawed design and capable of killing you........which of course is now genneraly accepted by the majority in this group.

( When I first posted my findings regarding the instability of the RAF there was a great knashing of teeth and much flamming of my findings, you will note it was not just an opinion it was a provable fact that the RAF is unstable. )

Not only is the RAF a dangerous design but I pointed out that the company culture was formed by dishonest unethical management...which has proven to be accepted by many who have been screwed over by these crooks.

When one decides to post negative information it will by its very content drive a very big wedge between you and a portion of the readers who will defend their turf, that is probably the biggest factor in my attidude on the gyro froums, I guess I just got in the habit of telling certain people to get stuffed...and quite frankly I am not in the least concerned about their not liking my attitude.....so in the best interest of the group its best that I just read and not comment. There are enough self proclaimed experts to fill in for me in a heart beat. And when the self proclaimed are finished there are true experts that post here.

Anyhow there is no longer any desire on my part to keep beating that drum and it is obvious that I don't have the right stuff for several of the regular posters here so I really do not have anything that would be of any value to add to this group.

Anyhow Birdy I just thought I would explain to you as you obviously did not know where I was coming from.

And to the several self righteous condescending members in this group, you will find someone else that does not fit your perfect mold I'm sure. And you can berate them in your little kingdom.

As to my plans for gyros, my RAF shall remain in the hangar indefinately as I'm am presently building a two place Little Wing for instructional use if I ever I get the time. It will not be this summer for sure as I just signed on for the U.S. Air show circuit flying for a war bird collector ending up in Oshkosh so I will not even be home for those months.

Fly safe.

Chuck Ellsworth

[birdy]

Chuck
Good post,the more of them I read ,the more I like your attitud ,we are not that different,maybe I haven't been on this computer thing long enough to get pissed off as much as you do,yet.

Sounds like you have a few contacts around the world,if you is ever passing Ailce Springs you be sure to give us a call,I reckon we could solve the worlds problems over a couple o rums mate.

[jucie]

We all love gyros. We aren't that different from one another.

Some people are able to choose the right words to express their thinking, some are not. To judge people only by it's written words is not fair, is not smart. It's too easy to do a bad evaluation of somebody if you don't have the chance to know him in person.

[Heron]

What about the friends made during all the time here? Do they deserve been abandoned too?
What about the ultimate reason for this forum: better understanding amongst gyro lovers?
If you have thin skin, use boots when walking around snakes!
Look at the old Forum, it was dieing before been unplugged, technical stuff gets very boring some times.
Can you all grow up and just truck along?
Mark: I went trough El Paso this weekend and visited the Santa Teresa Museum, also got the blunt of the storm on I-10 I-20 junction, nasty!!!
Heron

[Hognose]

when the gyroplane group receive training that is structured like the rest of aviation whereby they take an indepth ground school and thereby understand the basics there will be a very big improvement in the group as a whole.


Let me zero in on the positive part of Chuck's message. I am not gonna beg him to stay, because I don't beg, and Chuck is not the sort of a man to react to begging. Chuck has done, and continues to do, more stuff in the sky than most of us. Anybody that flies the Atlantic below the flight levels in machines that were built when "Axis of Evil" meant Hitler and Tojo, doesn't need our respect to get by.

But... one reason that gyro training is not "structured like the rest of aviation" is that there is no standard syllabus, no books. (There are a couple of books, but compare their quality to, say, the Jepp airplane private and commercial books. The gyro books are deficient).

I don't believe there's even a review book for the FAA written, or software, unlike most other ratings.

The reasons that these instructors' aids don't exist proceed from the small and fragmented nature of the gyro community. In plain terms, there is no money in writing such a book. While it is possible to construct such a work with donated time, without some overarching control, by someone with some experience in instructional design, it isn't going to happen.

In addition, the widely varied field of gyros with their various handling characteristics complicates the task of writing an instructional syllabus and manual.

The FAA "Rotorcraft Flying Handbook," available from book and pilot shops, the GPO, and online (for free, as a .pdf) is a good start but that's all it is.

The ideal Private Pilot -- Gyroplane package would include:

a book, covering all a recreational, sport or private pilot needs to know (airspace, wx, etc)., history of rotorcraft and gyroplanes, and principles of gyroplane flight (parts and mechanics of the machine, aerodynamics), and FARs in relevant parts;
Part 61 checklists showing preparation for solo and checkride (you'd be surprized how many students get signed off with some ingredient missing);
Presolo. pre-written, and pre-checkride quizzes or exams;
a flight-by-flight syllabus, or "flights workbook," planned and disciplined sequence of flights leading up to the checkride on a systematic basis, including all maneuvers to be completed and standards to which they must be accomplished;
practice examinations (ideally, software-based and paper).


Supplemental material could (and probably should) include a video. The book should be written, as Jepp's and Sporty's stuff is, so that anyone can understand it, and what's more, so that it is fun to learn. It should be motivational; the kind of thing that somebody can buy at Barnes and Nobles and by the next morning, he's all fired-up and looking in the appendix that tells him how to find a gyro CFI and PRA chapter.

The thing is, developing quality stuff like this takes time, and costs money (even if done by volunteers -- it costs them money in terms of opportunity costs!). If it isn't going to be first quality, there is no point whatsoever in doing it.

The PRA can't sponsor such an undertaking -- it is too small and too ill-funded itself. We can't ask one gyro maker to sponsor such a project, because none of them is big enough by itself (and if the material is too specific to one firm's machinery, it loses its universal utility). Perhaps, if PRA could give its imprimatur to such a thing, without financial outlay, it would be enough to get an undertaking from instructors and those firms that wish to have networks of instructors (principally AAI and RAF) to be willing to use the product. We could also seek grants from universities and/or foundations.

If we were to put together a committee to do this, I should like to participate. I would also want Chuck involved, because of his many years and hours of instructional experience, as well as the currently active gyro CFIs and DEs. These guys would make a great "sounding board" in the early stages of development and "murder board" as the structure and parts of the syllabus come together. My personal opinions. YMMV.

cheers

-=K=-

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Hognose :

Of course you know that as a professional pilot I will respond to any topic involving training and safety.

Please allow me to define a little more what I meant by structured ground school, I was referring to subjects such as meterology - basic airframes, instruments and engines, - Air law, - navigation, - Aerodynamics, - Radio aids and such.

In other words attend a structured ground school to learn the basics of aviation the same as when attending a fixed wing or helicopter school.

With that basic understanding of flight a lot of the arguments surrounding aerodynamics and such would be less frequent here in this group.

When I received my U.S. Commercial Gyroplane license the written exam was nothing more or less than a repeat of the commercial helicopter exam, there was no study material avaliable for the kind of gyros that this group builds and flys.......

In other words the written was next to useless for flying homebuilt gyros, but did relate somewhat to the machine that I trained on and did the FAA ride for the license, a MC J2.

Basially my U.S Commercial gyroplane license is more suitable for ass wipe than a measure of my understanding of the gyros we fly.

Not to mention it cost me a lot of money to prove very little.

When I first started in the gyro business it was my intention to set up a Canadian gyroplane training syllabus and proper ground school that would properly address these machines, as an add on to the existing fixed wing and helicopter school that I owned at that time.

Unfourtunately I was unable to convince RAF that such a training school was needed, and of course it all went to hell in a handbasket with my suggestion we start with a stable trainer.............yeh it went all to hell because by their reaction you would think I had suggested sodomizing their grand mother by suggesting their gyro needed some aerodynamic improvement.

Anyhow just wanted to clarify what I meant by structured ground school.

Chuck E.

[Screw]

Chuck,

What's the "Beef?" I'll take care of 'em. You know I love ya Chuck E.

Hognose,

You and Chuck are right about the structure and something needs to be done. Not only in the area of instruction, but also in certification of aircraft. I swear this story is true. Dan Lesley, I think Phil R. and of course Steve McGowan was there. Since the FAA couldn't tell me whether or not they could inspect my aircraft for an "Airworthiness Certificate" in three days or 6 months, I hired a DAR. Not just any DAR, one with the appropriate ratings. I think it was an "26-L or 46-L" code. Anyway, I found a guy around Atlanta who was willing to come to Macon in a reasonable timeframe for $450.00 (ouch!). He and I faxed all sorts of paperwork, I had to get 3 views and wieghts and balance with fore and aft CG limits (You get the picture).

This guy shows up at the airport and starts looking over "DaScrew-Driver." His obvious (Wanna be like Dad) 30 year old son was there too. He seemed real intreged with the Hand Brake on the cyclic, so he squezzes it and noticed a rubber wheel began to touch the drum on the prop. The DAR looks at me and says, "Does that really stop the prop?" It took all I had to keep from busting out laughing and explain it in a way as not to offend him. When I pointed out the flex shaft going to the head, his son says, "The blades turn sharp end first right?" Again, I thought to myself, these guys are gonna tell me, the FAA, and the rest of the world, if "DaScrew-Driver" is flight worthy!

Those guys were more concerned about the paperwork, placards, "N" numbers, and "EXPERIMENTAL," rather than the aircraft itself or how it worked. Forget that I had 2 threads exposed with every bolt, Or the time I took ensuring all was locked in place and doesn't rubb or chaff. How the h*ll can someone grant an airworthiness when they don't even know? I forgot $450 will buy alot. The FAA does it for free, they just can't say when or where. Do ya think they (FAA) would understand how it all works? Mine is simple, I feel for them if they had to look at a more complex gyro.

Chuck,

You and Hognose keep at it, and when someone pisses you off Chuck, do like you always do. Tell 'em to, "Get Stuffed!" You did it to me, Ron, and a few others. Why quit? We can take it, I know you can take it.

Sincerely,

John Stevens

[Screw]

Chuck E.,

Hows you Littlewing going. My frame is complete, but I'm still paying for the radial so it'll be some time before we go to the next step. I haven't decided on colors iether and powdercoated will be soon. Have you decided on colors? And didn't you say you were going with a radial also? Give me updates man.

John-

[Hognose]

How the h*ll can someone grant an airworthiness when they don't even know?

John and all,

When a guy gets the "papal blessing" as a DAR, he in effect has the FAA's "pen." He is exposing himself to certificate action (which is not necessarily restricted to the certificate that bears the violation -- ask Dofin about that, he violated the operating limitations on an experimental gyro and they took everything from Private through CFI to Examiner from him, temporarily, mostly). For that to happen, you would have to have committed some obvious construction (or design) boner, and then brought it to FAA attention, which would usually require something spectacular like having your teeter bolt, made of angel-hair pasta, let go as your ground track intersected the FSDO reserved parking....

Again, it all comes back to the fact that we are a small minority group. Like many minorities, we are sometimes feared and hated, and always misunderstood. (And I joined these guys? What was I thinking?) The long term answer is the one that Jim Mayfield & Co. are working on -- get more enthusiasts/gyros/dealers/instructors out there. It's a chicken/egg conundrum which others have tackled before (Air and Space... McCullough... Farrington... RAF) without lasting success, although RAF had a few years good run. (Chuck explains some of the reasons that their run was unsustainable in his post above). AAI has a chance because they have something that the others did not have, the capital of a public company.

The profile of gyro flight has to come up across the board before we can count on having DARs who can inspect a gyro knowledgeably (just think, what part of your income it would be if you could charge $450 -- is that with expences? -- to inspect an experimental gyro, and you inspected every gyro being finished this year... wouldn't keep you out of the poor house, would it!)

If our numbers grow, they can snowball: "the magic of compound interest" in the other sense of the word, interest, as more folks get interested. As the numbers grow the infrastructure, including knowledgeable inspectors, good instructors, clue-ful mechanics, etc., will all fall into place. Not that it's going to be easy, or that success is guaranteed.

cheers

-=K=-

[rehler]

I believe that all gyro pilots should have a private pilot's license - basic fixed wing training. That's where they should learn all the "basics".

The ONLY training that "we" need to teach is that which is unique to gyros and different than fixed wing aircraft.

[Heron]

I never been so happy with a thread that started bad! :)
This is it guys! we have to pound on this till we get it done. (not the salt Chuck, you pervert!)
And that DAR should be in jail . . .and his son taking lessons in a stock RAF!
Now what happened to that syllabus that I saw started 3 years ago on the olf Forum.
thanks
Heron

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Ken R. :

Exactly. You have summed it up exactly.

Chuck E

[Screw]

If anyone cares, I got my PPL prior to gyro's. I think it helped me alot with flying gyros too. I looked in my log book and the last time I flew a fixed wing was about a week before I got my gyro kit. That's been 11 months ago, but I aint lost a beat on the unicom :p or airport procedures.

John-

[gyroplanes]

I thought I needed to step in here and clarify a few things regarding DARs.

The fact that your DAR was more concerned about paperwork and placards is based on the fact that is his primary function.
Search and you will find there are no rules about 2 threads showing, 1/8" cables on primary controls or the need for any flight or engine instruments on an Experimental aircraft.

There are a lot of "rules of thumb" and hard and fast rules for certificated aircraft, but if you want to use a form of spaghetti for a teeter bolt, and I feel it won't kill you, you have every right to use the pasta.

Ken Rand once shocked the aircraft world by building an aircraft out of "picnic cooler" material and covering it with fiberglass. Molt Taylor did a similar thing by covering cardboard with fiberglass for his structural members. Such is the world of Experimental Amateur-Built. I have the right to not issue a certificate to a project I feel is unsafe. You have the right to find another DAR who may be more comfortable with your use of materials or design and approve your project.

The typical homebuilt has hundreds of fasteners, maybe thousands of rivets or may be built from a process that I know nothing about. I can't possibly take the time to check torque on every fastener or know if your composite mixing ratios were correct.

You have the right to build your own design aircraft, craft your own airfoil section and top your project off with a foreign auto engine that no one has ever heard of. Do you expect me, the FAA or anyone else to tell you if your 'aircraft" is "Airworthy" ? You could be building the next Van's RV design or the next "lawn dart"

Our mission is to determine that your aircraft meets the requirements for issuance of the certificate; Registration, Data plate, Placards, etc. and a reasonable adherance to standard aircraft practices. The flight test program is designed to protect everyone except you.

Now, as to the cost of a certification. It took me 3 years to get through the DAR process. DARs are made on an "as needed" basis. There is no guarantee you will be selected or that your designation will be continued if you are selected. You have to attend initial training in Oklahoma City, OK. entirely at your expense and on top of that, the FAA charges tuition. The designation has to be renewed every year. There is mandatory recurrent training at several changing locations throughout the USA. It seems the cool locations: Orlando, Las Vegas, Long Beach get snapped up by the feds themselves as soon as they are announced. This leaves guys like me with Appleton, WI., Bridgeport, Conn. or Everett, Wa. to name a few. (Everett was pretty cool however)

If a week of no income, airline tickets, motel room, rental car fast food, sitting through 25-30 hours of FAA regulations and paperwork (no aircraft or any type of hands on, ever)and the distinct possibility of a lawsuit has a price, it's not cheap.

I charge $350.00 and 50 cents a mile, one way, for a certification. This is pretty much a break even price. If the quantity of certifications ever increases, as they predict, my rates will go down. (that is unless the EAA Volunteer DAR program takes off. The EAA demands they charge only for travel expenses. An insurance issue I'm told) in which case I'll drop my designation. I paid my dues long enough as a volunteer EAA Tech counselor.

I can and do make improvement suggestions to my applicants and hope that my 30 years as a homebuilder and A&P, A.I. is of some benefit and value.

I don't want to sound like a whiner. I just wanted to introduce some facts.

[PTKay]

Gentlemen,

I joined this (and other forums) some 4 months ago to complete my knowledge on gyros, technology, training etc.

During this time I have seen reports on 5 people killed in gyros. I have seen firce arguments, mud slinging etc.

My conclusion was:

.....go get PPL in fixed wing !


Maybe one day, after very good ground school (which I am doing now) and many hours in fixed wing I will come back to gyros.

The professional approach of AAI, Magni and few others encourages me.

Just as a comment:

Building an experimental craft (gyro or any other) in Poland is much better supervised than in US. The inspectors from ULC (Polish FAA) are visiting the workshop frequently checking the quality of every step of construction. The s.c. "special" cathegory (comparable to experimental) in Poland gives me much more confidence than anything I have read on these forums.

PTKay

[Dean_Dolph]

Kevin, I don't have time you give you an in depth reply but...

There has, and is, an on going effort (three years so far!) to create a standardized training system that is flexible enough that any instructor should be able to make it fit his/her training process. It has been PRA blessed (not sponsored or financed) and there are five highly recognized instructors that are part of team. I serve as the moderator and preliminary wordsmither. Where were you when we were looking for someone to help out?!

This effort lost a little steam this past year but the plans to complete it are still in effect. I'm headed out of town for the next week but if you want the details then email me and I'll try to provide more info. My time is at a premium these days but I'll try to get back to you.

Oh yeah, your comment about time and money was right on target! One other thing, for some reason a training syllabus has become synonymous with a training system. A syllabus is nothing more, or less, than an outline of the training system. I know, its just semantics and such it really doesn't matter. It is just a pet peeve of mine.

[pwendell]

I believe that all gyro pilots should have a private pilot's license - basic fixed wing training. That's where they should learn all the "basics".

The ONLY training that "we" need to teach is that which is unique to gyros and different than fixed wing aircraft.


Ken, Chuck, et al,

I strongly believe that you are correct in that Gyroplane pilots should be held to the same standards of knowledge and performance as fixed wing pilots have always been. I don't necessarily think that getting a fixed wing license first is the only way to do that.

I'm currently pursuing a PP license with a rotorcraft catagory and gyroplane class rating as my initial rating. I had NO flight experience before I started. I've been taking lessons for about a year now with Terry Brandt over at AAI, (my budget and work schedule has not really allowed me to fly more often) and currently have 33.3 hours. I feel that the quality of instruction I am receiving is excellent and is preparing me to be a good aviation citizen. I know that both Terry and Jim Mayfield are committed to producing pilots who know the rules as well as those who have flight skills. While I have not taken a formal ground school, I have done a lot of studying on my own about weather, navigation, airspace restrictions, airport procedures, radio communication, emergency procedures, etc. in preparation for the Knowledge Test (I have had a lot of formal education in my life and am an accomplished and experienced self-learner). I am determined to be, like many others who post here, an excellent ambassador of the gyroplane community by adhereing to the conventional standards of piloting and by being as knowledgeable and articulate as I can be about the aircraft I am flying. If anything, gyro pilots need to be more accomplished because we are such a small minority and have such an unusual flight envelope. I have certainly learned that I have to very aware and proactive when dealing with traffic in the pattern.

I'm very lucky to have quality flight instruction within easy reach. I know that Jim and AAI are working very hard to expand their dealer/instructor network and to ensure a consistant, high level of training, and not only for Sparrowhawk customers. Hopefully, over the next few years, we'll see more fully trained and certificated sport and private pilots with rotorcraft/gyroplane ratings.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

pwendell :

You are doing exactly what is most logical.

You are learning at a top notch school, and learning all the necessary subjects to become a pilot.

Enjoy.

Chuck E.

[Brent_Brown]

That is great but a fixed wing rating and then a gyro add on might be less money in the long run. When I got trained in a fixed wing it was about $40 an hour wet. I know all about why it is higher to get training in a gyro. I am just looking at it from that point $$$$. Good to hear you are getting training and good luck.

[PTKay]

Peter,

shake hands, that's what I am doing now as well. My ground school is at the Warsaw Technical Unversity, we visit wind tunels, see and test the models, have all the opportunities the aviation egineering students have. It's not only educative but fun.

Our teachers are test pilots and former military pilots, so I think what I get is the best you can get.

The filght hour in our aeroclub is just 11$ solo and 12$ with instructor on Cessna 152 or AT-3, 22$ on Cessna 172 or PZL-104 Wilga.

The whole ground school is 200$. I think it's worth all the money !

See the pic from my class yeasterday...

The glider is a study in ultralight contruction by the students,
the PW-1 from 1981, empty weight 115 lb. !!

PTKay

[Mike Hook]

I see everyone jumping in on getting a ppl right now , should the ones that don't have it wait till the LSP comes out???

Mike Hook

[Chuck Roberg]

Mike H.

I don't know what ratings you have. But the short answer (my opinion) would be to wait for Sport Pilot. Even if someone has a PPL/FW I would suggest they wait for Sport Pilot. Unless they have a RAF 2000.

I would suggest anyone who has not read up on the Sport Pilot proposal check it out at;
EAA Sport Pilot info (http://www.sportpilot.org/)

Questions (http://www.sportpilot.org/becoming/)

FAA's Site (http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/sportpilot/)
FAA Questions (http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/sportpilot/faq.cfm)

AOPA Sport Pilot site (http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_links.html)

[Screw]

What's wrong with taking fixed wing lessons? I mean, ground school at least. Isn't that what were talking about? Basic rules of the sky? The technique of flying is a learned skill, and differance between fixed wing and gyros are worlds apart, however, basic rules of the sky apply to everyone. Somebody may be flying a gyro at or around an airport @ 1000agl thinking they are out of the way.

PTKAY,

I would love to fly a Wilga!!! You can really fly one for $22 and hour? Bring to Atlanta, Ga. and I'll pay $40 plus fuel!

John-

[scottessex]

I don't know what you mean, JOHN! :eek:








I just figured it was safer than 50ft.AGL.

[PTKay]

John,

I also love Wilga, it's really a one of a kind plane, but not so easy to fly.

It might be difficult to get it over to you, but you are welcome to come to
Poland and I will introduce you to all the Aeroclubs around the country
that will be happy to give you lessons or let you fly as much as you
wish (for that price, provided you have Wilga rating).

With it's 260 hp engine and all the flaps, flaperons and slots it flies ALMOST
like a gyro, (you can land her on 200 ft. and take off on 150....)

PTKay

[pwendell]

What's wrong with taking fixed wing lessons? I mean, ground school at least.

John-

John,

I don't think there's anything wrong with it. In fact, I think it's a great idea. I almost signed up for ground school at my local community college, but decided to do it on my own.

Currently for most students who want to fly Gyros, it probably makes more sense to get PP ASEL first and then get a Gyroplane add-on, if they want one. This may be cheaper (if you want to get the Gyro add-on, you'll still need 20 hours of dual, 10 hours solo, night training, etc.), but, more importantly, most people just don't have a Gyro CFI in easy reach. Getting the first rating is always the hardest and longest. If you already have a fixed wing license, there's a good chance you could get the Gyro add-on, or at least get solo'd, is a couple of weeks of flying everyday with a CFI -- a very nice vacation.

[Screw]

Scott,

I knew when I posted that, you'd say something. I really wasn't going there, but it is a good example. I ment no harm. Call me at the office.

PTKAY,

The Wilga has always been one of my favorite aircraft next to the AN-2, which I believe Poland PLZ was or is now producing. Something about butt ugly STOL aircraft drive me nuts! What's up with Poland and these super STOL aircraft anyhow?

I would give just about anything to have an AN-2 converted with sleeping quarters and the abuililty to haul one gyro. Live at an airport and fly all over to gyro events.

John-

[scottessex]

No offense here, A valid point is a valid point. It goes without saying, if you are going to fly you need to learn the rules. if you are going to go boating, the same thing applies.

That is why alot of pilots don't like ultralights, and lots of boaters don't like the jet skiers.

[Heron]

Easy fix:
Turn the Associations responsible each one for its aircraft dealings, make the pilots supervisors with penalties for looking the other way!
The better one pilot does the better that group is . . .
Rules are good, guarded freedom is awsome!
Heron

[PTKay]

John,

The Wilga is still in production, but with (I think) Franklin engine.
See: http://www.pzl-okecie.com.pl

An-2 is now available only used.
I know about one, that will suit you perfectly.

It is a former VIP saloon airplane, with sofa etc. (An-2K, 5 seat).
If you are seriously interested contact Mr. Zaganczyk, his page is:

http://www.aeroplane.webpark.pl

I talked to him yesterday and he has one for sale.
(not yet on the page, but e-mail him, mention my name).
If not, he has lots of contacts and can help you.

For all An-2 fans: http://home.hiwaay.net/~jlwebs/an2welcome.html

PTKay

[Screw]

I personally got a PPL SEL because I enjoy flying. I enjoy taking the family. Therefore I got my ground school. I like flying gyros because it cool as h*ll!!!! :D

I now that some folk fly gyros because not only is it cool as h*ll, but also because they believe they don't need licenses, when in fact if the bird wieghs over 254, they do. But who's checking? If it looks like an ultralight, it must be an ultralight right? The next question is, Would a ground school only course be very helpful? I hear fatalities due to poorly designed or maintained machines or piloting. I haven't heard of any fatalities due to lack of ground school (not saying there hasn't been). Is there anyway, that someone or some group (PRA) or gyro manufacturer can offer an affordable Ground School only course? I don't know?


John-

[Screw]

PTKAY,

As far as the AN-2 goes, maybe one day, but not today. The best one I could find for what I wanted was still around the 70-100k range. Besides when I can afford one, I'll probable get two and send one to Ron Herron so he can convert into a "Big Wing" code name BW-1.

John-

[rtfm]

I believe that all gyro pilots should have a private pilot's license - basic fixed wing training. That's where they should learn all the "basics".

The ONLY training that "we" need to teach is that which is unique to gyros and different than fixed wing aircraft.
Hi,
Couldn't agree more. I've been mildly surprised by the lack of rigorous training required in order to qualify as a gyro pilot. I know that to get a microlite (fixed wing) licence, the ground school training isn't as thorough as that for GA, but it seems that an ab initio gyro pilot is in for only the most rudimentary training, which makes me very pleased that I've had the benefit of the full PPL training.

Now all I haveto do is to learn to fly a gyro.

Duncan