Problems at 7,000 feet

[The Last Church]

What problems will I have flying between 7 and 9 thousand feet. My house is 5900 feet.

The picture shows what I will fly but I don't know what it is. Do you?

[Chuck Roberg]

It's rather hard to answer your question without knowing more about your gyro.

The picture quality is not that good when I enlarge it. So I can't really tell much about it. Other than looking like a HTL machine and does not seem to have a horiz. stab.

What engine and propeller does it have. What make and length of rotorblades. If you can post that information here I'm sure someone could tell you what type of performance to expect. If you don't know take some close up pictures and post them here.

[gyroplanes]

I believe you have a picture of the "Ranger" gyroplane. I believe it was a one of a kind and suffered a fatal crash somewhere in the Pacific Northwest.

[Rehan K.Janjua]

Thats a neat looking gyro.
Lets hear the specs and detail, so some one can figure out the performance.
The actual altitude will vary (density altitude).
I fly from a strip located at only 1600 ft on the foot hills of the great Himalayan mountain range. The density altitude some times could be as high as 9000 ft. The performance of my A/C 582 becomes lethargic and hardly climbs at 100 ft/min and may be go as high as 800 ft surface altitude.

thanks for posting the pic.

Good Luck and fly safe.
Rehan

[The Last Church]

1995 Ranger-II "Super Copter" 2-seat gyroplane. A beautiful, affordable 2-seater (tandem seating), with a powerful 135hp Subaru EJ22 engine, an electric prerotator, all-aluminum rotorblades and full instrumentation. Only 120 hours TT.

[Doug Riley]

That gyro is a widowmaker. It has a number of basic design flaws. Landing gear struts led up high on the mast, low seats, redrive up instead of down, no useful amount of HS and a questionable vertical tail design are some of the obvious ones.

Church, do yourself a huge favor and catch a cheap flight to the Bensen Days flyin in Florida at the end of the month. You will soak up so much new information your head will ache. You'll be in a much better position to shop for gyros after you've digested it all.

To answer your original question, flying from your base altitude will take a larger than normal rotor and more power than usual. Some single-place gyros used at your altitude use over 100 hp, when 60 or less would otherwise be adequate.

[The Last Church]

>That gyro is widowmaker. It has a number of basic design flaws. Landing gear struts led up high on the mast,
=========
Can I correct that with a little welding?

> low seats,
==========
You mean it is not center line thrust?


> redrive up instead of down,
=========
What is redrive?

>no useful amount of HS
========
What is HS?

> and a questionable vertical tail design are some of the obvious ones.
============================================
What is the question about the tail design?

>cheap flight to the Bensen Days flyin in Florida at the end of the month.
=============================
To sick to travel.

> You'll be in a much better position to shop for gyros after you've digested it all.
==============================================
You could just tell me

>To answer your original question, flying from your base altitude will take a larger than normal >rotor and more power than usual. Some single-place gyros used at your altitude use over 100 >hp, when 60 or less would otherwise be adequate.
===============================================
I have 135 hp. Don't know what rotor.

TLC

[Friendly]

Church,
I don't think anyone can tell you which gyro is right for you. Doug is telling you about the design flaws of that gyro. If you go to a flyin like Bensen Days you will see many gyros and you will have many comparisons. But gyros are like motorcycles. You fall in love with one and you don't know how it will handle. The High Thrust lines are like the long fork choppers . You are much more limited in the operating envelope although they can be operated but they are less forgiving of mistakes.
Beginners makes lots of mistakes whether its a car, motorcycle, bicycle almost any motor skill, dancing.
Church as beginners WE NEED FORGIVENESS in the air. Buy something that will give you an edge.

[The Last Church]

Church,
>I don't think anyone can tell you which gyro is >right for you. Doug is telling you about the >design flaws of that gyro.

Yes and I am trying to understand.
What is Redrive and HS?

If you go to a flyin like Bensen Days

I am to sick to travel more than an hour.

Church as beginners WE NEED FORGIVENESS in the air. Buy something that will give you an edge.

Yes And I have a shoot. They also make a shoot for the airplanes.

I am buying this one because it can be delivered. I don't have to drive. If you know what it is or what faults I will have to deal with please speak up. ;-)

[Chuck Roberg]

What is Redrive and HS?
A redrive is the unit mounted between the engine and the propeller. The propeller is mounted to the redrive. The redrive reduces the engine RPM to a slower RPM for the propeller. This is because the propeller operates at a greater efficency at a slower RPM.

Look at an airplane. The HS (Horizontal Stabilizer) is part of the tail assembly. The rudder is the vertical part. The HS is the flat part.

[Dale Young]

Listen closely to Doug , He is honestly looking out for your well-being.

[The Last Church]

A redrive is the unit mounted between the engine and the propeller. This is because the propeller operates at a greater efficency at a slower RPM.
Look at an airplane. The HS (Horizontal Stabilizer) is part of the tail assembly. The rudder is the vertical part. The HS is the flat part.

Redrive , Ok how can one be backwords?

Isn't the flat wing between the two rudders in the picture? So this plane has HS? correct?

[John Stahl]

Mike
This sport is a sport that requires you go slow and steady. You don’t want to make any fast or unplanned moves.

You have a large learning curve still ahead.
The gyro you have shown us has many problems.

Let’s start with the HS Horizontal stabilizer.
What this craft has is more of a rock guard. It keeps the rocks from being blowing up in to your rotor.
If you take a piece of plywood two feet wide and lay it across the top of the vertical stabilizers, that will show you the proper placement and size of a horizontal stabilizer.

There also doesn’t appear to be enough Vertical stabilizers to pass the weather vane test.
Cut out a picture of the gyro. Attach a string to the mast and lightly blow at the cut out. It should turn into the wind like a weather vane. If it don’t ,don’t fly it.

CLT rule of thumb. Level the gyro and draw a level line through the center of the prop. That line should go through the pilot’s belly button.

I question the mast height. It looks a bit short.

Can you fly at that altitude? With that motor and 25’ blades probably. Remember you have another problem living in Nevada the High temp, which is as bad as or worse than altitude. More that one pilot has crashed because the temp has jumped rapidly and the aircraft has lost altitude faster than that anticipated.

Can you fix it with a little wielding---------
Yes this is how I would do it. Buy the dominator plans and build a dominator.

If you have bought the gyro you have photos of, no big loss you have a motor and blades and prop and a great looking instrument pod that you can put on your new plans built dominator.
John Stahl

[mark treidel]

Church, What part of WIDOWMAKER dont you understand???? Doug above has tried to tell you not to mess with that purchase for reasons that Ray Charles could see!!! I believe you saw that one on 'Vortec hot specials' web site, correct? Its been there for a year. Guess why? I'm truly sorry about your health & inability to travel but you can get all the information right here. In answer to your questions,
1. HS = Horizontal Stabilizer or equivelant to an 'elevator' on an airplane, but mounted in a fixed position, usually 0 - 3 degrees parallel to the rear keel.
2. Redrive = The gear or belt 'reduction' assembly mounted between the motor and the propeller. This unit serves to reduce the RPM of the propeller to a 'useable' speed. IE: if the redrive has a gear reduction of 3 to 1, & the engine is turning at 6000RPM, The propeller will turn at 2000 RPM. I'm glad to see you asking questions; keep em coming. BUT, if you get answers you dont like, dont be stupid enough to throw them aside & go out & but something you are going to kill yourself in. If you cant make it to Fla. the try El Marage later on. Not too far from your location. Good luck.

[The Last Church]

Mike
This sport is a sport that requires you go slow and steady. You don’t want to make any fast or unplanned moves.

You have a large learning curve still ahead.
The gyro you have shown us has many problems.

Let’s start with the HS Horizontal stabilizer.
What this craft has is more of a rock guard. It keeps the rocks from being blowing up in to your rotor.
If you take a piece of plywood two feet wide and lay it across the top of the vertical stabilizers, that will show you the proper placement and size of a horizontal stabilizer.

There also doesn’t appear to be enough Vertical stabilizers to pass the weather vane test.
Cut out a picture of the gyro. Attach a string to the mast and lightly blow at the cut out. It should turn into the wind like a weather vane. If it don’t ,don’t fly it.

CLT rule of thumb. Level the gyro and draw a level line through the center of the prop. That line should go through the pilot’s belly button.

I question the mast height. It looks a bit short.

Can you fly at that altitude? With that motor and 25’ blades probably. Remember you have another problem living in Nevada the High temp, which is as bad as or worse than altitude. More that one pilot has crashed because the temp has jumped rapidly and the aircraft has lost altitude faster than that anticipated.

Can you fix it with a little wielding---------
Yes this is how I would do it. Buy the dominator plans and build a dominator.

If you have bought the gyro you have photos of, no big loss you have a motor and blades and prop and a great looking instrument pod that you can put on your new plans built dominator.
John Stahl

Where Can I see this dominator? I haven't got time to build one but I could get an idea how to improve the one I have.
Average temp around here in the summer is 75 to 80 and some times 90 but not much more. The hills around here go up to about 7500 maybe 8000.
You say I will need a 25 foot rotor? Actualy the elevation here can run from 200 feet below sea level to 9000 with one 13,000 peak.

I wonder how connards would work here. (The small wings on Rutans planes.)

[animal]

1995 Ranger-II "Super Copter" 2-seat gyroplane. A beautiful, affordable 2-seater (tandem seating), with a powerful 135hp Subaru EJ22 engine, an electric prerotator, all-aluminum rotorblades and full instrumentation. Only 120 hours TT.

Is it just me or is does that engine look like it is a EA-82 and not the Ej-22.I thought the EJ-22 had squire rocker boxs. if thats and EA-82 I wonder if it will have enough power to fly 2 people. but with the redive and depending whats been done to the engine it might fly nicely.

I think I saw this machine listed on Vortechs website awhile back.

[John Stahl]

Where Can I see this dominator?
http://www.rotorflightdynamicsinc.com/

[The Last Church]

>Church, What part of WIDOWMAKER dont you understand????

The part where this Gyro has flown 122 hours with out a problem.
==================
Doug above has tried to tell you not to mess with that purchase for reasons that Ray Charles could see!!! I believe you saw that one on 'Vortec hot specials' web site, correct? Its been there for a year. Guess why?
=================
I had rather know than guess.
===================
I'm truly sorry about your health & inability to travel but you can get all the information right here. In answer to your questions,

===================
Ok who want's to deliver me a two seat Gyro
for $12,000. ASAP ;-)
==================


I'm glad to see you asking questions; keep em coming. BUT, if you get answers you dont like, dont be stupid enough to throw them aside
==========================
I am not the emotional type that likes or dislikes
any answer. I am looking at facts, cold, hard truth.
======================

If you cant make it to Fla. the try El Marage later on. Not too far from your location. Good luck.
==========================
Look, I might not live through spring or even long enough to fly any thing. I have flown fixed
wing and do not have a fear of flying. I want to fly
again before I die. But I am not stupid. The Gyro
looks fun and simple. I am reading books and watching film and finding out what the odds are.
I need a gyro and an education fast. So I listen to everyone.


I have been at it 10 hours a day for weeks. If anyone knows of a two seat Gyro that can be delivered here Speak up. I have the contract for
the widdow maker in my hand and about to sign.
I haven't found anything else. I am down to hours and the clock don't stop.

[animal]

I have been at it 10 hours a day for weeks. If anyone knows of a two seat Gyro that can be delivered here Speak up. I have the contract for
the widdow maker in my hand and about to sign.
I haven't found anything else. I am down to hours and the clock don't stop.

Mike, I am the one that told you about this Forum. trust me these guys know what they are talking about.do not buy that Gyro! there are people out there that will deliever if you pay them for their time and expenses.
you would be better to buy that RF-170 gyro I told you about.some would say the body will make it unstable,but if you take the body off of the RF-170,you will have a nice flying Gyro. Ron Awad had an RF-150 which is the tandem with out the body and he flew it all over. since that RF-170 is near where they have bensen days.maybe you could get someone to pick it up and bring it to you from there.
But By all means do not buy that widow maker. if it has not sold there was a single seat dominator on Vortechs site with a trailer.

[The Last Church]

Nice looking

[The Last Church]

Mike, I am the one that told you about this Forum. trust me these guys know what they are talking about.do not buy that Gyro! there are people out there that will deliever if you pay them for their time and expenses.
you would be better to buy that RF-170 gyro I told you about.some would say the body will make it unstable,but if you take the body off of the RF-170,you will have a nice flying Gyro. Ron Awad had an RF-150 which is the tandem with out the body and he flew it all over. since that RF-170 is near where they have bensen days.maybe you could get someone to pick it up and bring it to you from there.
But By all means do not buy that widow maker. if it has not sold there was a single seat dominator on Vortechs site with a trailer.

Yep almost had that one but he would only drive half way.

[The Last Church]

Is it just me or is does that engine look like it is a EA-82 and not the Ej-22.I thought the EJ-22 had squire rocker boxs. if thats and EA-82 I wonder if it will have enough power to fly 2 people. but with the redive and depending whats been done to the engine it might fly nicely.

I think I saw this machine listed on Vortechs website awhile back.

Yes this is the machine from vortex. It is advertized as 135 hp. If it is not ej-22 I need to know.

[Timchick]

The best deal right now for a 2 seater is Maxie Wildes tandem Air Command. Center line thrust and ready to fly.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7276&highlight=Maxie

[The Last Church]

The best deal right now for a 2 seater is Maxie Wildes tandem Air Command. Center line thrust and ready to fly.


$26,000 is a little out of my ball park.

[animal]

Yes this is the machine from vortex. It is advertized as 135 hp. If it is not ej-22 I need to know.
this is an EJ-22 on this RF-170, note the shape of the rocker boxs.

[The Last Church]

this is an EJ-22 on this RF-170, note the shape of the rocker boxs.


Can't see by that pictures. Valve cover

[animal]

Can't see by that pictures. Valve cover
ok here is a better picture of one I had to search the forum to find it.
take my word that is an EA-82 on that gyro and unless it has had a bunch of mods i dougt it is even 120 h.p. they were only 95 h.p. in the car.

pic of engine hanging from hoist is my old EA-82 out of my 87 subaru wagon note the valve cover shape and look at the ones on the widow maker.

[automan1223]

A subaru ea 82 does not put out 135 hp. You are lucky if you get 100-110. Heavy, underpowered. No tail.

Take Doug Rileys advice. Come to bensen days.

Play it safe.





===============================================
I have 135 hp. Don't know what rotor.

TLC

[automan1223]

$26,000 is a little out of my ball park.


Maxie had it listed at 20,500. Make him an offer.

Jonathan

[Timchick]

You don't have to buy Maxie's enclosed trailer. You can get a dual axle flatbed trailer for $1200. You're about to throw away $12,000. If that gyro is so good why were only a few of them made? 120 hrs on a one-of-a-kind gyro does not make it a proven design.

[The Last Church]

ok here is a better picture of one I had to search the forum to find it.
take my word that is an EA-82 on that gyro and unless it has had a bunch of mods i dougt it is even 120 h.p. they were only 95 h.p. in the car.

pic of engine hanging from hoist is my old EA-82 out of my 87 subaru wagon note the valve cover shape and look at the ones on the widow maker.

I can tell they have different valve covers but don't know what that means.

[The Last Church]

You don't have to buy Maxie's enclosed trailer. You can get a dual axle flatbed trailer for $1200. You're about to throw away $12,000. If that gyro is so good why were only a few of them made? 120 hrs on a one-of-a-kind gyro does not make it a proven design.

I just talked to him on the phone and he has a trailer for $750. but still wants $19.000. for the Gyro.
I never said the widdow maker was a good Gyro. Only a few made? Who made them.

[The Last Church]

A subaru ea 82 does not put out 135 hp. You are lucky if you get 100-110. Heavy, underpowered. No tail.

Take Doug Rileys advice. Come to bensen days.

Play it safe.

Told you I am to sick to travel more than a few hours.

[The Last Church]

I am thinking it would not be hard to add HS to
this machine if everything else is good.(It has the 135 hp engine)

[The Last Church]

These Gyros are of the same basic design

The Shadow seams pretty close. Is there something wrong with a shadow?
http://www.vortechonline.com/gyro/

[Dean_Dolph]

....... I haven't found anything else. I am down to hours and the clock don't stop.You buy this gyro and you are going to be down to minutes and seconds! WAKE UP! Everyone is telling you 'Do Not Buy This Gyro!'.

The statements you make, the questions you ask (it is good that you ask them!) and the pictures you post prove that you have a ways to go in aviation education before you are going to be prepared to buy any aircraft.

The learning takes time but it is fun because it is interesting. This is truly a case where the trip is more important than the destination. Just like learning to walk, this is a one step at a time situation. If you try to run first then there is going to be one big splat that you will not get up from.

[Papa Smurf]

Told you I am to sick to travel more than a few hours
Should you really be flying?

What's wiith the "bit" as an avatar?

[scottessex]

Are you well enough to take lessons?

[StanFoster]

Last Church: I just now started reading this thread. I have been looking at horsepower charts for a 160 horse engine such as my Subaru EJ25.

Basically they showed that at sea level you have 160 horse. At somewheres around 18000 ft...that power is cut in half to roughly 80 horse. This is the point where the atmospheric pressure is one half the amount at sea level.

The horsepower output is practically a straight line form 160 horse at sea level to 80 horse at 18000 feet.

Every 2000 feet in alitude....you lose around 10 horse power on this 160 horse example.

So with your 135 horse engine at sea level...you should only have one half the horsepower at 18000 feet which is 67.5 horse. Using the same ratio for the 160 horse engine...this gives your engine 110 horse at 6000 feet....and just over 100 horse at 8000 feet.

That isnt any numbers I would want to play with. :eek:


Stan

[BUD ONEAL]

Listen to the people man,The questions that you ask, the statements that you make has me thinking that you should put your money into a good rocking chair and stay on the front porch. I have been in gyros for at least twenty years and have seen people like you go ahead and buy a gyro,proven or not, and very promptly splat thier selves all over the ground, usualy on the airport, that is not fair to all of us who have to come and scrape thier leavings from the tarmac and then try and get the airport operator to let the rest of us continue to use thier airport.
I have scraped all the blood and guts that I care to, and I am sure that all the rest feel the same.

[animal]

I can tell they have different valve covers but don't know what that means.

It means they are differnt engines and the one on the Gyro you are looking at is NOT a EJ-22.
I give up.

[animal]

Told you I am to sick to travel more than a few hours.
If you are so sick then how do you expect to get legal to fly a 2 seat gyro anyway. and the way you don't listen to what the long time pilots are telling you make me wonder,if you don't want to splatter on the runway somewhere.

Oh well at least no one can say you have not been warned.

Guys I think he needs a dose of reality, maybe he should be shown some of the smoking hole pics, from unstable designs or untrained pilots.

like I said before, there are people around that ship or transport aircraft. just because you can not travel to get it does not mean you can not arrange to get it delivered. I had a Mac J-2 like Ken's delivered from Hubbard OR. several years ago by Road way trucking,so if they can haul that, then I know they can haul a gyro. in fact some truck lines use to have a rate just for experimental aircraft hauling. for the price of that RF-170 Gyro I told ya about,you could pay to have it shipped. and at least you would have a powerful enough engine to fly safely.take the body off and enjoy it.

[Timchick]

These Gyros are of the same basic design

The Shadow seams pretty close. Is there something wrong with a shadow?
http://www.vortechonline.com/gyro/

Church, You don't see any of those shadow gyros flying at the fly-ins today. Those are old has-been models that never became popular probably due to design problems. Buy a model that has more than 10 of them flying.

[animal]

These Gyros are of the same basic design

The Shadow seams pretty close. Is there something wrong with a shadow?
http://www.vortechonline.com/gyro/

those are also very old designs, high thrust line. and very much like the avenger gyro. Ask anybody about jamie Bodies adventure in the avenger gyro.

does anyone have the Link to the pics from Jamies crash? maybe that will wake Mike Up. maybe if he reads first hand what it is like to crash,he will take the advice of the long time pilots that know whats not safe.

Mike why not just get a nice single seat center line thrust machine,take lessons and enjoy flying it, you can get a 2 seater later. Have you even ridden in a gyro yet? if not before you go out buying one that can clearly kill you,maybe you should go ride in one and take the controls to see if you even like flying a stable design.

As for that Widow maker, if it had a bigger engine,you would at least have something worth working with to make it safe. but from what I see,you would have to do so much to make that one safe, that in the end you would have more then what you could buy Maxie gyro for. or not to mention could have had that RF-170 shipped for. since that RF-170 can be bought now for $8,000 and everything is there.

[Chuck Roberg]

does anyone have the Link to the pics from Jamies crash?

Click on photos on the bottom of the first page.

http://mentone98.8m.com/

[animal]

Click on photos on the bottom of the first page.

http://mentone98.8m.com/

Thanks Chuck,that is the link I was thinking about. Mike, read that whole story,look at the pics, then tell me you still want to fly that widow maker.

this is one of the most eye opening storys you will read becouse Jamie did live. but trust me you don't want to see the hospital pics.

make no mistake,these machines are not toys and they can and will kill you.
they do not fly like a fixed wing airplane,and they do not fly like a helicopter.

we just don't want to see you get hurt or killed,it does not help you,and it sure does not help the image of the Gyroplane.

[The Last Church]

Should you really be flying?

What's with the "bit" as an avatar?

Should you be asking?

The Bit? I think it looks like a face.

[The Last Church]

It means they are differnt engines and the one on the Gyro you are looking at is NOT a EJ-22.
I give up.

I have seen boats with heads that look stock yet
the engine is anything but. The valve covers do not tell one what engine is under them.

I have a bronco with 1 ton running gear and what looks like a 460 ci engine. How ever I put 429 parts inside the engine and got Hp that is much higher than a normal 460. It looks like a half ton and 460 engine. But it is a 429 bored to
460. Totaly diffrent engine. The Block is much stronger because I didn't have to boar it. Ford didn't make a 1 ton bronco so most people don't have any idea what they are looking at.
The Advertizing says and the contract says it is 135 hp engine. If it ain't Vortech is guilty of false
advertizing.

[brett s]

99% of the stuff that Vortec deals in is crap...they take advantage of the naive.

Why ask, if you have no intention of listening to the advice you're given?

[animal]

I have seen boats with heads that look stock yet
the engine is anything but. The valve covers do not tell one what engine is under them.

I have a bronco with 1 ton running gear and what looks like a 460 ci engine. How ever I put 429 parts inside the engine and got Hp that is much higher than a normal 460. It looks like a half ton and 460 engine. But it is a 429 bored to
460. Totaly diffrent engine. The Block is much stronger because I didn't have to boar it. Ford didn't make a 1 ton bronco so most people don't have any idea what they are looking at.
The Advertizing says and the contract says it is 135 hp engine. If it ain't Vortech is guilty of false
advertizing.

Ok beleive what you want that is not an EJ-22 in the pic of that gyro.
as for Vortech I know Joel.he listed my scorpion I had awhile back. but before then he tryed to sell plans for my Dusty2 helicopter with out my premission.I had to call him about that.Joel only knows what people tell him about an aircraft. ask him if the engine in the pic is the same one on it now. if it is then it is an EA82.valve covers do not interchange on these Subaru engines,unlike the v-8 in your truck,these are an over head cam engine,it will have it stamped on the block. if you are so stupid as to not listen when someone is trying to help you then fine. waste your money.just don't cry to us,when you learn it is not what you expected. you won't listen to anyone anyway. you have your mind made up.

[The Last Church]

If you are so sick then how do you expect to get legal to fly a 2 seat gyro anyway.

Legal? is not a problem. I prefer to judge things as
right or wrong.NOt legal.

and the way you don't listen to what the long time pilots are telling you make me wonder,

Always Question Authority.

if you don't want to splatter on the runway somewhere.

If I wanted to die all I need do is stop taking the
pills I have to take.


Oh well at least no one can say you have not been warned.

I was warned the day I was born.

Guys I think he needs a dose of reality, maybe he should be shown some of the smoking hole pics, from unstable designs or untrained pilots.

I have seen them. I have seen dead people before even in my front yard.
It don't bother me.

for the price of that RF-170 Gyro I told ya about,you could pay to have it shipped. and at least you would have a powerful enough engine to fly safely.take the body off and enjoy it.

What is the URL?

[animal]

99% of the stuff that Vortec deals in is crap...they take advantage of the naive.

Why ask, if you have no intention of listening to the advice you're given?
true when I had my Scorpion listed it was a waste of time, Joel jacked the price up to like $22,000, I was only asking $18,000 about the only machine I have seen listed that I called about was the gyro he has listed as a falcon 2 and it is not a falcon at all. it is a one off design.use part of a falcon body and part RF-170 body with sheet alum. it is now owned by Neal Carnes of Rotorhawk, but he did not design or build it.I talked to Neal several times about it my self. the machine was called the Competitior 500,and it has that painted right on the side. yet Vortech has it listed as a Falcon 2 gyro. when I talked to Neal, he was not in a big hurry to sell it and told Joal not to push selling it to hard. Neal did tell me he handles the kits for Don Parham for the RF-170 gyros if someone wants one.

[animal]

What is the URL?


http://mentone98.8m.com/

[The Last Church]

Church, You don't see any of those shadow gyros flying at the fly-ins today. Those are old has-been models that never became popular probably due to design problems. Buy a model that has more than 10 of them flying.

The "Shadow is a curent in production Gyro, is it not? I look at the prop on the widdow maker and it is lined up with the belly button. I would like to see the plans for a shadow.:)

[The Last Church]

Click on photos on the bottom of the first page.

http://mentone98.8m.com/

MUrphy's law in action.

[karlbamforth]

Contender for the Darwin awards ? :eek:

[The Last Church]

99% of the stuff that Vortec deals in is crap...they take advantage of the naive.

Why ask, if you have no intention of listening to the advice you're given?

What makes you think I am not listening? Or did you mean do as I was told.

.

[The Last Church]

I know Joel.he listed my scorpion I had awhile back. but before then he tryed to sell plans for my Dusty2 helicopter with out my premission.I had to call him about that.Joel only knows what people tell him about an aircraft. ask him if the engine in the pic is the same one on it now.

Now that is useful information. And It states in the contract it is 135 hp. Do you know what happens to a business that lies, in a contract?

if you are so stupid as to not listen when someone is trying to help you then fine. waste your money.just don't cry to us,when you learn it is not what you expected. you won't listen to anyone anyway. you have your mind made up.

Try not to get so emotional about
it. Control your emotions or they will control you.That's good advice!
I have it on hold and he will answer the questions. If my mind was made up I would not be here.

[The Last Church]

http://mentone98.8m.com/

No the url for the 170

[The Last Church]

Mike why not just get a nice single seat center line thrust machine,

I have to have a place for my cooler and a few survival things that are not optional.


take lessons and enjoy flying it, you can get a 2 seater later.

Can't pay $4500 for lessons.
If I watch and read I can figure it out.

As for that Widow maker, if it had a bigger engine,you would at least have something worth working with to make it safe.

It had better have the engine
advertized, or they might be buying me a new one.

not to mention could have had that RF-170 shipped for. since that RF-170 can be bought now for $8,000 and everything is there.

Is it put together ready to fly? What is the URL

[animal]

No the url for the 170
I don't have one for it, the RF-170 was designed by Don Parham of R.F.I. he is still on the Forum here,he use to put out Homebuilt Rotorcraft Magizine that Robert Stark bought out. I can give you Neal Carnes phone Number from Rotorhawk 260-748-4495

[animal]

Is it put together ready to fly? What is the URL

I am talking about that RF-170 that I gave you the E-mail address to the guy in Fla. has. the purple one it is almost ready to fly, just some finish work to be done.

call steve at (727) 543-9127

pic are of it below. $8,000.00

what I am getting at is the widow maker is $11,800, you can buy this gyro for $8,000 the money you save,you can get it shipped for I would sure think. the RF-170 has a EJ-22 on it with redrive and is powerful enough to fly 2 .who knows you might find someone going to bensen days that is in your area or near that might can pick it up for you. I don't know if anyone is in your area going to bensen days or not. I just Know that steve will probably take this gyro there to sell. but anyway it's your money,I am just trying to help you get the most for it. I have not seen an RF-170 fly with the Body on it. i do know that Ron Awad had an RF-150 that he flew alot. the RF-150 did not have a body on it,was just open frame. when i was looking at this gyro my self,I was told the body could make it do strange things.I wanted an enclosed gyro so I passed on this one,also it was priced a lot higher the $8,000 then. at the price it is at now. it will ake someone a nice gyro if they take off the body and fly it open frame.
anyway just something for you to think about.or who knows maybe someone else might want the RF-170 to play with.

[The Last Church]

Last Church: I have been looking at horsepower charts for a 160 horse engine such as my Subaru EJ25.

Basically they showed that at sea level you have 160 horse. At somewheres around 18000 ft...that power is cut in half to roughly 80 horse. This is the point where the atmospheric pressure is one half the amount at sea level.

The horsepower output is practically a straight line form 160 horse at sea level to 80 horse at 18000 feet.

Every 2000 feet in alitude....you lose around 10 horse power on this 160 horse example.

So with your 135 horse engine at sea level...you should only have one half the horsepower at 18000 feet which is 67.5 horse. Using the same ratio for the 160 horse engine...this gives your engine 110 horse at 6000 feet....and just over 100 horse at 8000 feet.

That isnt any numbers I would want to play with. :eek:


Stan

Vortex has this to say:
Michael,

Please read carefully:

We have communicated further with the owner of the Ranger-II gyroplane, who then communicated further with the person he had purchased the gyro from. The current owner purchased the gyro from Jim Moon in Oregon, who installed the Subaru engine, and Mr. Moon confirms that it is an EA82 and not the EJ22. So the current owner acknowledges and apologizes for his error. This is the engine that for a long time had been used on the RAF2000 gyroplanes. Because the engine was specially modified for aircraft, Mr. Moon said it has "125+ hp." To put this in perspective, a comfortable figure for power-to-weight ratio is about 10:1, which means that the 125 hp is suitable for a gross weight of about 1,250 lbs. Since this gyro weighs approx. 550 lbs, you would have a weight-lifting capability of up to 700 lbs. For a gyro of this weight, the 125 hp is well beyond what is needed. For example, see the Falcon2 at http://www.vortechonline.com/specials/falcon.htm which only has an 85hp twin-cylinder 2-cycle engine, whereas the Subaru is a four-cylinder 4-cycle engine. This Subaru EA82 engine is in great condition and starts right up; it has, of course, electric start.

Mr. Moon (who installed the engine and flew this gyro with that engine) is very knowledgeable about rotorcraft, and for further details you may contact him at 541-546-2100, or by e-mail at moonriverranch@cs.com

We regret the error. The owner is taking a loss of $7,000 on this gyro, but in compensation for his error will knock $500 off the price. Also, we would then have to modify the purchase confirmation form.
Regards,
Vortech, Inc.


See boys, we seam to be getting at the truth. What should I offer this man for the Gyro now?

[animal]

[B][COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Vortex has this to say:
Michael,

Mr. Moon confirms that it is an EA82 and not the EJ22. beyond what is needed. For example, see the Falcon2 at http://www.vortechonline.com/specials/falcon.htm

which only has an 85hp twin-cylinder 2-cycle engine, whereas the Subaru is a four-cylinder 4-cycle engine. This Subaru EA82 engine is in great condition and starts right up; it has, of course, electric start.


, See boys, we seam to be getting at the truth. What should I offer this man for the Gyro now?

what you have to remember here is the Subaru is alot heavyer then the hirth engine on the so called falcon2 gyro.as stated before. the gyro Joel calls a falcon 2 is a one off design and the airframe is 4130,I also was told by Neal Carnes,that owns the gyro,that it only weighs about 430 pounds empty.

all I can say about the widow maker is. you might could use the parts and redesign it to CLT and make it a single seater. but even then I would not offer more then $8,000 for it. but thats just me.
BTW Neal does make a Falcon 2, but it is an open frame side by side 2 seater.

[The Last Church]

I am talking about that RF-170 that I gave you the E-mail address to the guy in Fla. has. the purple one it is almost ready to fly, just some finish work to be done.

Looks like more than I can do. I remember that one now. Can't remember
what the problem was but I may check again.
call steve at (727) 543-9127

pic are of it below. $8,000.00

what I am getting at is the widow maker is $11,800,

Yes I understand

the RF-170 has a EJ-22 on it with redrive and is powerful enough to fly 2 .who knows you might find someone going to bensen days that is in your area or near that might can pick it up for you. I don't know if anyone is in your area going to bensen days or not.


There is no one near me. the nearest town in 250 miles away.

I wanted an enclosed gyro so I passed on this one,also it was priced a lot higher the $8,000 then. at the price it is at now. it will ake someone a nice gyro if they take off the body and fly it open frame.
anyway just something for you to think about.or who knows maybe someone else might want the RF-170 to play with.

thanks
It's an option

[The Last Church]

DESCRIPTION: Vortech offers this:
What do you think of this? It only has 85 hp.
Super value in a unique, highly affordable 2-seat gyroplane. Offers tandem seating with dual controls; extruded-aluminum rotorblades; excellent, individual suspension + large tires for super-soft landings; a powerful Hirth F-30 85hp engine with "high-performance" option + electric start; dual high-output ignition; full instrumentation (digital and analog) with engine-info system; handheld Navcom with GPS unit. Warp Drive prop; NSI redrive; electric prerotator; large fuel tank separate from seats; large tall-tail and highly effective horizontal stabilizer; 4130 chromoly steel air frame; rotor brake; main hydraulic brakes. Beautiful black design on white enclosure. Only 47 hours TT. Cruises at 70-75 mph.

I wonder what the punishment is for attempted fraud?

[animal]

DESCRIPTION: Vortech offers this:
What do you think of this? It only has 85 hp.
Super value in a unique, highly affordable 2-seat gyroplane. Offers tandem seating with dual controls; extruded-aluminum rotorblades; excellent, individual suspension + large tires for super-soft landings; a powerful Hirth F-30 85hp engine with "high-performance" option + electric start; dual high-output ignition; full instrumentation (digital and analog) with engine-info system; handheld Navcom with GPS unit. Warp Drive prop; NSI redrive; electric prerotator; large fuel tank separate from seats; large tall-tail and highly effective horizontal stabilizer; 4130 chromoly steel air frame; rotor brake; main hydraulic brakes. Beautiful black design on white enclosure. Only 47 hours TT. Cruises at 70-75 mph.

I wonder what the punishment is for attempted fraud?

well besides what joel called it, that gyro is decribed right. I don't know why he does not have it listed by it's real name. but there was a pic of it in home built rotorcraft several years ago.and in the yellow on the nose it had competitior 500 on it, and when I talked to Neal he confirmed that. Neal offered me that Gyro for alot less then what it is listed at. he said it is very well built and he has flown it a few times him self, but he does not have time to fly much anymore. main thing I liked about it was the 4130 airframe. I can't remember if it has ever flown with 2 people in it or not. Neal even offered to sell it to me with out the Engine,as I was thinking about putting a subaru on it. somewhere on the forum you can probably find where I was asking people what they thought about it. I will look for it so you can read what was said about it.

as for the widow maker,I would be suprised if it really weighs 550 pounds,my single seat air command CLT weighed about 480 and it was hand propped and had the smaller EA-81 engine on it. now don't get me wrong.the EA-81 with redrive can fly a 2 seater if built light enough. and yes the early RAF-2000 did come out with a EA-82 with Redrive. but it was very underpowered. In fact I had leads on an RAF-2000 project that still has the EA-82 new in the crate.

as for false advertiseing,Joel has been getting away with it for years,since he is brokering aircraft for other people,I guess it would be hard to prove in court that he knew differntly. all in all, from talking to joel on the phone he seems to be a pretty decent guy. but as stated. he goes by what others tell him. as he admitted to about the EA-82 on that gyro.

so basicly what I am saying is buyer beware,and take time to do the research, there are alot of gyros out there for sale,and alot of times people will deleiver if you pay the expeneces. Joel gets alot of hits on his site becouse it is linked well. but if you look around you can find lots of sites with gyros for sale. I had mine listed on about 6 differant sites. also better to deal with the seller direct instead of a broker like joel. I mean don't get me wrong i wish I had a site like Joel's where I could make $1,000 to $2,000 on a sale. look at all the aircraft he has listed.

[animal]

DESCRIPTION: Vortech offers this:
What do you think of this? It only has 85 hp.
Super value in a unique, highly affordable 2-seat gyroplane. Offers tandem seating with dual controls; extruded-aluminum rotorblades; excellent, individual suspension + large tires for super-soft landings; a powerful Hirth F-30 85hp engine with "high-performance" option + electric start; dual high-output ignition; full instrumentation (digital and analog) with engine-info system; handheld Navcom with GPS unit. Warp Drive prop; NSI redrive; electric prerotator; large fuel tank separate from seats; large tall-tail and highly effective horizontal stabilizer; 4130 chromoly steel air frame; rotor brake; main hydraulic brakes. Beautiful black design on white enclosure. Only 47 hours TT. Cruises at 70-75 mph.

I wonder what the punishment is for attempted fraud?

My bad, it is called the challanger 500, here is the link to the posts about it and the Rf-150 and 170 when i was looking at them.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4151&highlight=falcon

[The Last Church]

well besides what joel called it, that gyro is decribed right. I don't know why he does not have it listed by it's real name.
.

Could you make it simple and say which you think would be better for me at this altitude with a full load?

[Butch S.]

I build EA81 motors for gyros & EA82s havethe same port shape & you can't
get 135hp out of a 4stroke 1800 enginewihout a hair dryer also EA82s are hevyer & belt reductons are around 2-1 a reduction of 2.4-1 would be better.
That said I would fly the blue gyro in the picture & then make up my mind if it
was a dud or not.
So get it demonstated & if somone can fly it then anyone with experience
will be able to.
what I am hearing though from the outher helpfull guys is it may not be ideal
for learning in so listen to advice
Butch S.

[The Last Church]

[QUOTE=animal]
as for false advertiseing,Joel has been getting away with it for years,since he is brokering aircraft for other people,I guess it would be hard to prove in court that he knew differntly. [QUOTE]
[U]
When you send a contract for sigining that makes false statement of any kind. There is nothing to prove. It is all there in black an white. The DA here is a friend of mine and wants to see the papers monday. He seams eager to file charges. This is a small town and he likes to have something to do. He coppied the site and all comunications here and says he has a sure case.[B][/U
[COLOR="DarkRed"] Im not to interested in courts and I just want something to fly.But I'll see where it goes.


Which one is best for me?

[Phil_Ruffin]

Can't pay $4500 for lessons.
If I watch and read I can figure it out.

If you don't take lessons then maybe you should talk to Bob.

Should you be asking?

The Bit? I think it looks like a face.

So what is the Avatar?

Look, I might not live through spring or even long enough to fly any thing. I have flown fixed
wing and do not have a fear of flying. I want to fly
again before I die.
Told you I am to sick to travel more than a few hours.
I am down to hours and the clock don't stop.

Other than your in ability to understand the Bible, What's wrong with you? The God I know can heal you.

[The Last Church]

If you don't take lessons then maybe you should talk to Bob.
Ok glad to how do I get to BOB?

So what is the Avatar?

Its just a picture I made.


Other than your in ability to understand the Bible, What's wrong with you? The God I know can heal you.

He has, can, But I sort of promised to take life any way he wanted with out bitching. No one knows how long their life is or will be. It's the Gamble that makes it fun. what's wrong? Heart attack, veins plugged up, 2 industrial accidents, sleep disorder Apneia,{I don't breath at night} And then there is the mileage and genes. All the males in my family die of heart failure before 50.

.

[Friendly]

Church,
Since you are not going to get instruction, I would recommend the Butterfly with the G Force landing gear. It is close to your price range. The Air Command with a pod if you must have an enclosure. But you wont be legal ultra light.

If you are too ill to travel, what are you going to do when you have an engine out. This is a real factor in flying. HOW will you walk back to any public place. You will have to preflight your machine. Are you up to that? Loading and unloading a Gyro can be strenuous, especially the larger , heavier machines. Gyros can roll over, they can bounce, they can get crabbed while landing.

Your post suggest that you have serious health issues. If you are not well enough to travel, you would be surprised at what energy a gyro takes in the learning stages. The adrenaline rush and the anxiousness of learning to fly will even have you asking yourself "why am I doing this".

You may save several thousands of dollars to take airline to the various major fly-ins and have someone take you for rides. You will meet people and socialize. Its not all just in the air. The camaraderie of different people with a common interest is a reward in itself. (like the forum live!)

[The Last Church]

But you wont be legal ultra light.

I am in the middle of no where and there is no
one to care.

If you are too ill to travel, what are you going to do when you have an engine out.

I have a cell phone and friends to pickme up.

This is a real factor in flying. HOW will you walk back to any public place.

I can't walk more than a few 100 feet. My 4 wheeler is my wheel chair.

You will have to preflight your machine. Are you up to that? Loading and unloading a Gyro can be strenuous, especially the larger , heavier machines.

It takes me a while to get the groceries in the house but I just take my time and several trips.

Gyros can roll over, they can bounce, they can get crabbed while landing.

Yep, that's a bitch. Nearly rolled my 4 wheeler last week. All that stopped it was the dropdown basket on the back. Learned a lesson there.

Your post suggest that you have serious health issues. If you are not well enough to travel, you would be surprised at what energy a gyro takes in the learning stages. The adrenaline rush and the anxiousness of learning to fly will even have you asking yourself "why am I doing this".

I am pretty calm about everything. If I were falling to my death I could probably think of a joke on the way down.

You will meet people and socialize. Its not all just in the air. The camaraderie of different people with a common interest is a reward in itself. (like the forum live!)

Yep and I invite everyone to come here for an expearence, Desert waterfall, hotsprings, etc Forest to sand Dunes its all here. And no one in it but me. I been here 35 years and haven't seen 10% of it.

I thought I had but then I got the 4 wheeler and found how many spots I had been missing. Now I am going to fly it and see more. There are many
mining camps that can only be found from the air.
Then take the 4 wheeler to get a closer look...The gyro will increase my range to.

[animal]

[QUOTE=animal]
as for false advertiseing,Joel has been getting away with it for years,since he is brokering aircraft for other people,I guess it would be hard to prove in court that he knew differntly. [QUOTE]
[U]
When you send a contract for sigining that makes false statement of any kind. There is nothing to prove. It is all there in black an white. The DA here is a friend of mine and wants to see the papers monday. He seams eager to file charges. This is a small town and he likes to have something to do. He coppied the site and all comunications here and says he has a sure case.[B][/U
[COLOR="DarkRed"] Im not to interested in courts and I just want something to fly.But I'll see where it goes.


Which one is best for me?

well if it was me I would try to get the so called falcon2, just becouse I have talked to the owner and know it does fly ok. but if I remember right it has not flown with 2 on board. as for the blue one. like the other guy said arrange for a demo flight when they deleiver it, since you said they will deleiver it. But I just don't see that engine haveing enough power.

As for court stuff, you are right the contract mis repersented the machine.now proveing that Joel knew differntly or that the seller knew differntly is another thing,but since the model of the Engine is clearly stamped on the top of the block,it's kind of hard to own the machine and not know what is on it.like I said earlyer Joel only goes by what the seller tells him. I think the blue machine could be a fun single seater with some redoing,but not for $11,000 anyway above all I hope you will get proper training before trying to fly any gyro. I have time in both fixed wing and helicopter,when I took gyro lessons it took me 2 days to just get the feel of the machine to where I was not PIO all over the sky. just be careful. hope some day you will be enjoying a gyro and exploreing the area around you. some people have tought them selfs to fly. but it is sure not recomended

[animal]

BTW is that an oil rig bit in the avatar?

[Friendly]

Church,
You have a full plate that is for sure. I wish you luck in your endeavor. It is not realistic that you will achieve gyro flight. I will not encourage you to do so. God Bless and keep you safe. If I make it back that way, I will try to stop by and say hello.

[The Last Church]

[QUOTE=The Last Church][QUOTE=animal] But I just don't see that engine haveing enough power.

Maybe you have a way to find out if subru did make a special version for flight.

when I took gyro lessons it took me 2 days to just get the feel of the machine to where I was not PIO all over the sky.

That is something I need to know about,[PIO} The book says cut power and ride it out then add smooth power. Can you add anything to that?
The Book "The Gyroplane Flight Manual" by Paul Bergen Abbott tell you how to teach yourself
and not get killed. It is most useful. Can you add anything to PIO recovery?

some people have tought them selfs to fly. but it is sure not recomended

It would be nice to have some one but there is no one. I taught myself fixed wing so with this book and all the videos I have watched I am sure I will do fine. But, If not
the wife Gets $400,000 Got any tips. or PIO advice.

[The Last Church]

Church,
You have a full plate that is for sure. I wish you luck in your endeavor. It is not realistic that you will achieve gyro flight. I will not encourage you to do so. God Bless and keep you safe. If I make it back that way, I will try to stop by and say hello.

Please do stop buy. Want to make any bets on the flight thing? It's legal in Nevada.I'll give two to one to any who wish to do so.

[KenSandyEggo]

"But, If not the wife Gets $400,000."

Uuuuh.....could you e-mail me the wife's phone number? ;)

[The Last Church]

BTW is that an oil rig bit in the avatar?

Yes they start out that way.

[Ron Marlett]

You know for the ammount of money you will spend on either of those gyros, you could probably find a used 2 seat fixed wing ultralight or trike, or even a powered parachute. It would get you into the air and you wouldn't have to re-invent the wheel learning how to fly it(you said you already had fixed wing experience). This might allow you to get in the air before the clock runs out. Just about anything you try will be hampered by your altitude and temperatures. The gyro is the second most inefficient aircraft in the air(second to the helo) and altitude, density or otherwise, is not it's friend. A ultralight/trike with it's low wing loading would probably give you a better chance of rapid success. I think just about everyone who has posted here would agree that it dosn't take much for someone self taught to wack a set of rotors. Then you are out $2000+ as well as the time it takes to replace them and refit/repair the machine.

Just my opinion.

[PTKay]

Guys, guys,

are you all CRAZY, or just this one man...

You know probably what TROLL is on the net...

I think he has great fun on all of you taking him seriously...
(But if he is serious, one of you should rather call a doctor or an ambulance in his vicinity.)

Sorry. Just my 2 cents...

[animal]

[QUOTE=animal][QUOTE=The Last Church]

It would be nice to have some one but there is no one. I taught myself fixed wing so with this book and all the videos I have watched I am sure I will do fine. But, If not
the wife Gets $400,000 Got any tips. or PIO advice.

No Subaru did not make an engine for flight, RAF did have some things done to their EA-82'a to make them put out a little more power, now I have heard that all Subaru engines are built to aircraft tolerances,and that is why they make such good Experimental aircraft engines.

AS for PIO, the way the Instructior I had showed me to recover was hold back on the stick and just let it slow down to either slow flight or vertical decent.I was training in a RAF-2000 with a horz. stab. and I can say if I had not had the Instructior with me I would have bunted over in a PPO for sure. being that you have fixed wing time,that natural instint to push the nose back over when it slows down is what will get you. I don't know how other gyros are, but with this RAF ever shift in the wind required a correction. you would feel the updrafts hit the from or rear of the rotordisk,nd hd to make corrections before the machine acted.like when you felt the stick push back in your hand,you had to give it just a little forward nudge and so on.
now note I only have 12 hours dual in gyros,but I have many hours in fixed wings,just never soloed,and about 6 hours dual in a hughes TH-55 helicopter.and I am here to tell you the gyro did not fly like anything I had flown before. in fact I always felt like a natural stick in fix wing and helicopters, I was doing take off and landings and flying the pattern in the hughes TH-55 in 2 hours. it took me 2 and a half days to get the gyro under partail control,after 12 hours I still could not land. Trust me when I say the odds are against you.but I guess the wife will be happy. If your D.A. freind is reading this let it be noted you have been warned about gyroflight with out proper training. BTW where did you get you figures of $4,500 for training? I paid for 15 hours for under $2,000. can you travel by airliner? if so I am sure there is an intructior willing to meet you at the airport. I and I am sure all the others on here would feel better if you would get some dual time.
as mentioned I only have 12 hours dual in gyro,and the above is how the machine reacted when I flew it. I am in no way an expert in gyroflight.but I can say in all honesty,that I know for dang sure if I had tryed to solo a gyro with out training I would not be here right now to type this. I just hope you will keep this in mind. I have nothing to gain here as i am not even flying gyros right now,but I wuld like to see the sport grow and get a better safety record. and well in all honesty people like you,that feel they can just hop in and fly the gyro,are the ones that end up being smokeing holes. yu seem like a pretty nice guy,and I hope you will take time to read more on here and see that these are like someone said no lawn mower. even though they look simple these machines can and will kill you.
at this point I have told ya all I can about them. I almost feel like I smacked the hornets nest pointing out the engine was not a EJ-22,but felt you should know for sure.just disappointed you did not want to believe what i was telling you, until Joel wrote you back and told you it was an EA-82 and not the EJ-22,with that in mind,it makes me feel that what I have told you about how the Gyro flys will go in one ear and out the other. In a way I wish you could have bought my Gyro,when you called about it, at least mine was CLT and would have been more pitch stable and easyer to fly and did have plenty of power.but mine had been sold a few weeks before you called. if you would settle for a single seater brent brown still has Peg leg for sale, it is a very nice CLT gyro with tall tail,and it can be bought for $6,000,that would leave you plenty for shipping. and to be honest, peg leg is the best gyro for the money I have seen. it even has eletric start from what I understand. look back to last year under the for sale thread. maybe I can find the link and post it for you. anyway good luck. I have said about all I can,it's up to you now.

[KenSandyEggo]

"You know probably what TROLL is on the net..."

Paul, I beat you to it in one of his other threads about a week ago. Seems the 2 Poles are the only ones that know what a "troll" is. To be wasting time answering this phony crackpot just to amuse him is nutty. Quit wasting your time, guys. He's jerking you off.

[animal]

Vortex has this to say:
Michael,

Please read carefully:

We have communicated further with the owner of the Ranger-II gyroplane, who then communicated further with the person he had purchased the gyro from. The current owner purchased the gyro from Jim Moon in Oregon, who installed the Subaru engine, and Mr. Moon confirms that it is an EA82 and not the EJ22. So the current owner acknowledges and apologizes for his error. This is the engine that for a long time had been used on the RAF2000 gyroplanes. Because the engine was specially modified for aircraft, Mr. Moon said it has "125+ hp." To put this in perspective, a comfortable figure for power-to-weight ratio is about 10:1, which means that the 125 hp is suitable for a gross weight of about 1,250 lbs. Since this gyro weighs approx. 550 lbs, you would have a weight-lifting capability of up to 700 lbs. For a gyro of this weight, the 125 hp is well beyond what is needed. For example, see the Falcon2 at http://www.vortechonline.com/specials/falcon.htm which only has an 85hp twin-cylinder 2-cycle engine, whereas the Subaru is a four-cylinder 4-cycle engine. This Subaru EA82 engine is in great condition and starts right up; it has, of course, electric start.

Mr. Moon (who installed the engine and flew this gyro with that engine) is very knowledgeable about rotorcraft, and for further details you may contact him at 541-546-2100, or by e-mail at moonriverranch@cs.com

We regret the error. The owner is taking a loss of $7,000 on this gyro, but in compensation for his error will knock $500 off the price. Also, we would then have to modify the purchase confirmation form.
Regards,
Vortech, Inc.


See boys, we seam to be getting at the truth. What should I offer this man for the Gyro now? intresting

I just went to Vortech site and he has corrected the add to say it is a EA-82 of 120+ h.p. also has a price drop. I wonder if he will edit the name of that so called RH-2 gyro. like I said I think he just did not know him self what was on it. but being a design that not many where made I would sure want to see a demo flight with 2 people before I would pay that kind of money for it. at sea level it might have enough power to fly, but at 7,000 I just don't know.

[PTKay]

Ken, let's keep ouerselves amused with the happenings... ;)

I don't really know, what it is, that Polish people are so resistant against trolling...

Maybe we have been fooled around in our history by our neighbors, allies and others,
so many times, that we just "don't buy it" any more... :)

[animal]

Ken, let's keep ouerselves amused with the happenings... ;)

I don't really know, what it is, that Polish people are so resistant against trolling...

Maybe we have been fooled around in our history by our neighbors, allies and others,
so many times, that we just "don't buy it" any more... :)

well I know this guy is for real as I am the one that told him about the Forum when he called about my gyro. but I, at the time did not think he would try and get a machine and self teach him self. I really did not talk to him long since my gyro was sold already,but did send him the link to the forum so he could learn more. I do wish he would try and get some training so as not to give the sport another black eye when he becomes a smokeing hole in the desert. hopefully he will learn enough to either get training or decide that the gyro is not the best choice of flying machine for him after all,with his health issues I am thinking an ultra light or power para glider may be a better choice for him to fly. he could still explore his area just as well with either one. for that matter a PPG he could carry on his four wheeler and if he came across something of intrest he wanted to check out unload it and fly. that may be something he might want to think about.

[Mike Schallmann]

Michael Rippie --AKA THE LAST CHURCH---Im a true believer in the Sport Pilot Regs -including the Drivers Lisc Medical --but I also believe that we have a responsibility to others -- It sounds like your health is so serious that you would not even qualify to fly under the Sport Pilot Proivisions--( remember you still must self certify ) Ethically and Morally you would be placing yourself and OTHERS at great risk -should you venture into the skies -- a Drivers Lisc would suffice in place of a Medical --but do you really think --realistically that you have the physical acumen to participate in what can be a adrenelin producing heart stopping activity -ther are times that flying can be demanding --both mentally and physically -Im off my Soap Box now--
I curently fly under the Sport Pilot Provisions -but I KNOW that at some point I will have to give up flying --hopefully it will be a long time coming --but Dirty Harry said -It is important for a man to know his limitations--

[KenSandyEggo]

He levitates 7,000 pound rocks, too.

http://www.skywise711.com/Skeptic/Floating/floating.html

[gyrofly]

Seems to me if you are too sick to travel, you surely are too sick to learn to fly a gyroplane. Especially one of an unproven design.
Ron Dupont

[The Last Church]

that is not fair to all of us .

What is not fair is one man telling another what he can do with his life. I am a free man.
It is not fair that you be allowed to fly anything dangerous at all. No paragliders no hang gliders no anything that is not government approved.

It is wrong for a person to form a club to say other people can not be free.

Freedom has and will always be paid for with blood and guts. Thats the only reason you can fly at all. Why don't you work on them base jumpers! Now there's a sport looking for a place to die! But fact is what they do with their
body is none of your business.

[birdy]

It cuts both ways church, we're free to protect ourselves from people who we recon are generaly dangerous to ourselves or others.

[animal]

It cuts both ways church, we're free to protect ourselves from people who we recon are generaly dangerous to ourselves or others.

Well Birdy, I think it is clear to us all now,that he is not here to learn.and well with that in mind. I think we can all expect a new smokeing hole soon.

when I gave him the link to the site, I thought he wanted to learn about gyros.seem to me he just wants to stir up stuff with his I don't have to obey the law talk. but one law he will have to obey,and thats the laws of gravity.oh wait I forgot, he levitates rocks....lmao

I am done with him.

[BUD ONEAL]

What is not fair is the fact that you want to fly an unproven design, a two place so that you can take out another who may or may not share your view on life. People like you should not be allowed near any type of aircraft untill a shrink says that you are stable.That should take few years.
Base jumpers are no probrem to us gyro flyers and will be adressed by the parachute guys when they become a probrem to them.
In the meanwhile stay on the porch and think of all the well meaning people who have spent thier time trying to keep your uncareing ass alive.

[Doug Riley]

If someone wants to die, or put himself in a position where that is the likely outcome, that really IS his business alone.

But we don't live on separate islands. When the foolish or don't-give-a-damn guy creates some disgraceful spectacle, the rest of us suffer by association.

A damnfool "pilot" killed himself in an unstable old Air Command (that I and others had warned him about) here last summer. (Photo attached.) He had no gyro training beyond a chat with the guy who sold it to him. Even though I've been flying gyros for decades, my students and I now get the "you can't fly that killer thing here" treatment.

If you want to take a suicidal risk, please find a way to do it that doesn't hurt others... including others' reputations.

[Luc De Keyser]

From the web site you advocate "Your own mind, body and soul are the only house of God."
Why not take the best care of that body, then, and fly a safe design after appropriate training?

Luc

[Crash one]

Church
You are great The only thing you are going to do is keep my old outfit or the American equivalent in a job. Digging you out of a hole in the desert!!!
Good luck.

[The Last Church]

we're free to protect ourselves from people who we recon are generaly dangerous to ourselves or others.

That's fine, Pull out your gun and kill him. But Don't ask me to kill him
for you.

.

[The Last Church]

What is not fair is the fact that you want to fly an unproven design, a two place so that you can take out another who may or may not share your view on life. People like you should not be allowed near any type of aircraft untill a shrink says that you are stable.That should take few years..

There is nothing unproven about a shadow and the design is on the market
today. Exact same thing. My cooler goes in the back seat and it has no choice but to go where I go even if that is to hell.

People like you should not be allowed ? Really? People like you should not be allowed? Who taught Benson how to fly? And who taught all the others
who had the guts to build and fly a Gyro. If not for people LIKE ME you would not have a Gyro to fly.
' A shrink is the most insane people on the planet. They have the highest sisuide rate of any one on the planet.
It's like abortion, if your not the mother abortion is none of your business. It's called freedom. The one you should be watching is the Government who says it has the right to tell you what you can or can not do with your body. I am not a slave. Are You?

Truth: It is not an unproven design. It is manufactured today under the name of Shadow. #2. My cooler has no rights.
.

[The Last Church]

my students and I now get the "you can't fly that killer thing here" treatment..

Your club does not have the right to say everyone has to do as you say.
Freedom is more important than life.

[The Last Church]

From the web site you advocate
Why not take the best care of that body, then, and fly a safe design after appropriate training?

Luc

Anyone who want's to come train me is more than welcome. I would even pay you. I would even beg you. But if not then God will have to ride in the back seat and he has never lied to me, not even once.

No one here has shown me any thing unsafe about this design. HS can be corrected but the same design with out HS is on the market. Can anyone show me the difference between a shadow and this ranger?

[The Last Church]

Church
You are great The only thing you are going to do is keep my old outfit or the American equivalent in a job. Digging you out of a hole in the desert!!!
Good luck.

I am already in the hole and the only way out is flying.

[Crash one]

From the kind of smoking hole I'm thinking of, that would be a neat trick, even with Gods help.

[The Last Church]

I had rather be talking about ways to increase HS or something more than how you are better than me.
If anyone want's to Gamble I bet I fly with no problems. How sure are you
that it is not possable. Please state your convictions in dollars and donations
Just state bet and I will cover it with two to one. You might even win the V-Max.

[The Last Church]

Michael Rippie --AKA THE LAST CHURCH---Im a true believer in the Sport Pilot Regs -including the Drivers Lisc Medical --but I also believe that we have a responsibility to others -- It sounds like your health is so serious that you would not even qualify to fly under the Sport Pilot Proivisions--( remember you still must self certify ) Ethically and Morally you would be placing yourself and OTHERS at great risk -should you venture into the skies -- a Drivers Lisc would suffice in place of a Medical --but do you really think --realistically that you have the physical acumen to participate in what can be a adrenelin producing heart stopping activity -ther are times that flying can be demanding --both mentally and physically -Im off my Soap Box now--
I curently fly under the Sport Pilot Provisions -but I KNOW that at some point I will have to give up flying --hopefully it will be a long time coming --but Dirty Harry said -It is important for a man to know his limitations--

I'm a true beliver in no Driver licence as stated in the constitution of my country. USA. You are just setting yourself up for more tax. The only difference between your licence and no licence is horse power and speed.
Neither has anything to do with safety. You can die just a quick with 60 hp as you can with 120 hp.
As for heart stopping activity nothing can compaire with an argument with the wife.
Moraly there is no one around here to put at risk. I am in the middle of no where and the 300 people that live in town stay there. I have thousands and thousands of acres with no one in it but me. When I can't drive or fly I am dead.

[The Last Church]

[QUOTE=The Last Church][QUOTE=animal]
I was doing take off and landings and flying the pattern in the hughes TH-55 in 2 hours. it took me 2 and a half days to get the gyro under partail control,after 12 hours I still could not land. I have said about all I can,it's up to you now.

Read the Book "" The Gyroplane Flight Manual"" by Paul Bergen Abbott.

It really is the best for learning to fly.

[scottessex]

I read that book too, Patrick Howell's book is much better, but I also took dual instruction, so I speak from experience. Reading does not make a pilot.

I just don't think you can do a "cliff-notes" version of understanding the gyroplane flight envelope, and teach yourself, it takes time, If you don't have the time toinvest see if you can get to Arizona and get some rides and/or training at AAI. Good luck!

[Vance]

Michael, in reading your posts I feel you may have a misconception.

The marketing of a kit aircraft only means that sombody built one. It doesn't even mean that money has changed hands. All that being on the market means is that someone thought it would be fun to be in the kit aircraft business.

There is no knoledge test, no proof of concept requirement and no one to sue because in therory, you as the builder are the manufacturer.

The asumption by the FAA is, you had the knoledge to evaluate each piece and the design as you were building it and you believed that it was safe. Many accidents don't get reported if there is not a dead body, so the NTSB is not a reliable test.

I have only a superficial understanding of autogyros and I can see that the person who designed this aircraft did not have a grasp of how a horizantal stabilizer works. The one on the blue ship is not big enough or far enough back to be aligned with current thinking on gyroplane stability.

It does hurt all the people left alive that fly autogyros, when someone crashes one. No one takes the time to find out if it was well designed or if the person flying was a good pilot or a thoughtfull person, only that autogyros kill people. Then these ignorant people will try to stop me from flying.

It is a nice looking ship and I suspect that with a little thought it can be modified to fly well. I hope you are able to have many hours of happy flying.

Thank you, Vance

[Chuck Roberg]

Anyone who want's to come train me is more than welcome. I would even pay you. I would even beg you.

I was understanding you did not have any money for instruction.

[Adam H]

You should make yourself more clear to Chuck, he's a gyro flight instructor.

[pwendell]

I think the Last Church should hook up with Bob K. They could self-train together and share all of their well-informed opinions.

[Chuck Roberg]

I think the Last Church should hook up with Bob K. They could self-train together and share all of their well-informed opinions.

I told myself I'm not going to post on this thread anymore. I don't know what keeps drawing me back. I really think it's a lost cause for both of them.

[The Last Church]

I was understanding you did not have any money for instruction.

I have Money-------- There is just no one here to take it. I even have
the worlds largest runway only 25 miles from here. Made in WW2 and full sized
757s can land on it with room to spare.
Again no one is using it except for a few small planes. It would be a great place to learn with all that room. We have had a few heavy Mayday landings
by the big boys but it is mostly deserted.

I HAVE MONEY!:)

[The Last Church]

Michael, in reading your posts I feel you may have a misconception.

The marketing of a kit aircraft only means that sombody built one. It doesn't even mean that money has changed hands. All that being on the market means is that someone thought it would be fun to be in the kit aircraft business.

There is no knoledge test, no proof of concept requirement and no one to sue because in therory, you as the builder are the manufacturer.

The asumption by the FAA is, you had the knoledge to evaluate each piece and the design as you were building it and you believed that it was safe. Many accidents don't get reported if there is not a dead body, so the NTSB is not a reliable test.

I have only a superficial understanding of autogyros and I can see that the person who designed this aircraft did not have a grasp of how a horizantal stabilizer works. The one on the blue ship is not big enough or far enough back to be aligned with current thinking on gyroplane stability.

It does hurt all the people left alive that fly autogyros, when someone crashes one. No one takes the time to find out if it was well designed or if the person flying was a good pilot or a thoughtfull person, only that autogyros kill people. Then these ignorant people will try to stop me from flying.

It is a nice looking ship and I suspect that with a little thought it can be modified to fly well. I hope you are able to have many hours of happy flying.

Thank you, Vance

> The one on the blue ship is not big enough or far enough back to be >aligned with current thinking on gyroplane stability.

That is what I was thinking. a little welding to add another HS between the
Virticals would be easy. I was even wondering about conards in the front.
===========
I understand a kit is not certified anything but the shadow is in production and I believe can be bought fully assembled. At any rate the design is a proven design. AS much as they can be.

Looks like I will need better supention on the front for off road ruff landing fields. But then we have flat dry lake beds all over here. There is a real nice
Lake bed just 7 miles from here that is perfect for take off and landings. There is one about every 10 miles around here.

>> Then these ignorant people will try to stop me from flying.

That's one thing I like about here. No one to get in the way of freedom.

.

[Friendly]

Church , if you bought a powered parachute you could be flying in a day, probably.

[Mike Schallmann]

Michael--
I must have missed the part of no drivers liscense as STATED in the Constitution -Sir with all due disrespect you are friggen nuts!

[The Last Church]

Michael--
I must have missed the part of no drivers liscense as STATED in the Constitution -Sir with all due disrespect you are friggen nuts!

You have never read the constitution. Try researching what you do not understand. And remember the majourity is nearly always wrong about everything.

[The Last Church]

Church , if you bought a powered parachute you could be flying in a day, probably.

Yes I have looked into these and found them to restrictive and slow.

.

[Eric62]

well done Church,
you've been stringing these guys along for 8 pages - they're too tied up in their own self importance to see thru your crap.
Ptkay & Ken picked it up , but that doesnt supprise me.

[The Last Church]

I haven't said anything that is not true.

[Eric62]

I did'nt say you were telling porkies........

If you want to catch the big ones you must use the right bait...well done Church , ol mate.

Hang on - i'll just give myself an upercut for even replying.

[The Last Church]

I did'nt say you were telling porkies........

If you want to catch the big ones you must use the right bait...well done Church , ol mate.

Hang on - i'll just give myself an upercut for even replying.

Please don't hurt your self or you may find fists are outlawed! One used to have to go to the bath room to smoke a joint. now you can smoke the joint at the table but you have to go to the bathroom for a cigarett.

/:confused:

[twistair]

So, guys, anybody wants to know the rest of the story?
This gyro which triggered this thread - it appeared in Russia :eek:
Somebody e-mailed me today asking to help him to sell "1995 Ranger-II "Super Copter" 2-seat gyroplane. A beautiful, affordable, blah-blah-blah..." and - photos. I wonder who sold it - Vortech or somebody else.
Anyway this contraption is now in St. Petersburg and owner wishes to sell it. I refused to help him, explained why and gave him a link to this thread. Hope he finds here some grains of wisdom before somebody else needs funerals.:rant:

[Timchick]

The best thing he could do is dismantle it and sell off the engine and any other usefull components.

[dragonflyerthom]

That Ranger II had been decertified back in the 90s. It would have been very difficult to recertify and the problems with the horse power and basic design is the main reason I didn't buy it back last year. The owner who was selling it thru VORTEC wouldn't deal either. It would have made a good fixer upper if the price had been right. He would only go down to ten thousand dollars. Not enough to do any real changes to the design and power situation.

Sorry someone bought it in St Petersburg. It was a waste of money and time but it could have been a nice bird with the right modifications and power change. It seems that this gyro has become a pass around to the unsuspecting. This is the kind of thing that gives gyros a bad reputation.

[JRB549]

This all sounds great,one man dying to kill himself. My advice after reading this thread go somewhere else, some other flying sport, and kill yourself there,we already have enough blackeyes from healthier people that didnt want to do what it takes to do the gyro thing right.
"It's time to either get on with the living or get on with dying"

[gyro-3xio]

I can't believe this kind of sh_t on this thread.
"Since you're not going to get instruction,.. I would recommend the....."

Get with it.

Somebody is fondling your balls here!!!

[Mike Schallmann]

This guy is a con man " par excellance" --I think this has been covered in this thread as well as several others - he apparently has PO'd people off all over the internet in various groups -- at one point he was trying to get $300K as start up capital to to develop an "improved " tie down method for OTR trailers -- there's lots more but if I bring it up Im sure to get deleted "AGAIN"

[Gyrobound]

OK, I could not resist. I kept thinking, if this were happening in person I’d be looking for the cameras and Alan Funt would come walking out.

Very interesting to note that in the first post Church said he’d be flying the gyro in the picture and wanted to know if anyone knew what it was. Not a question like, “I know what it is I just want everyone else to guess”, but a genuine I don’t really know what I have here. Then out comes the contract with full disclosure of what it is and what it should have on it. Enough so that when questioned about the engine he argues and when forum members are proven right he is ready to let the seller be sued.

Then post #60 he states he doesn’t have money for training. Don’t recall anyone telling him it would be around $4500 for the training but he came up with the figure himself. A little high unless someone knew he’d need a lot of training but none the less he didn’t have the money for it. Now in the last few posts he states he would like someone to come train him and he’d pay and even beg, but didn’t he say he had no money for training? Am I confused or is he?

He’s willing to listen to all the technical advice but not the practical advice. One way ticket to no where there.

Church, or should I call you, The Last Church, (Why do people who try and get something for nothing on this forum always use that name) your best bet is to strap a couple of homemade wings on your arms and let fly from the roof of your house. Tell yourself a joke on the way down and do everyone a favor and just get it all over with without giving gyro’s a bad name. Better yet say a loud fast prayer that starts off with the name Jesus. Don’t think you’ll get to much more out after that anyway. Sounds like the wife will be better off if the fighting is as bad as you say it is. She’d also be much richer and I’m sure will thank you for it. But first off, dig a big hole where you are going to jump so all anyone has to do is fill it back in when you're done.

Hey, I just read in one of your old posts from last year how you don't learn from books. SO why is it you keep quoting the Benson manual in this thread and how you learned all you need to know from that?

Scott

[Doug Riley]

Alan Fudd? Related to Elmer Funt by marriage perhaps?

Time to leave off this silliness.

[Gyrobound]

OK Doug you got me. I corrected it. So where are all the cameras? I checked this guy's posts from the past and they are all like this one.

Do we ever learn?

Scott

[Doug Riley]

Public forums, everything from New England Town Meeting to 'Net forums, attract nutballs. Goes with the territory. One of these times the cameras will be rolling.

[magilla]

Folks, this thread was dug up from over a year ago.

Secondly, it looks from the Member's list that Last Church has been banned.

No doubt from the fact that he was at the least disingenuous,if not outright trolling.

Forum Administrator: Time to lock this thread!!!

[Timchick]

It was brought back up because someone in Russia ended up purchasing the gyro and Alex was just telling us the rest of the story.

[Phil_Ruffin]

It seems that Mr. Last Church is now offering a gyro as a prize if your ticket is drawn when you donate to his cause. Or you can buy one outright! :wacko:

http://www.thelastchurch.org/

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

[enewbold]

You have never read the constitution. Try researching what you do not understand. And remember the majourity is nearly always wrong about everything.This whole thread is one big joke on the gyrocopter community, right? :D This person, whoever he is, obviously has no education in the Constitution of the United States, no flight knowledge what-so-ever, no common sense at all, can't spell common English words and continues to yank everyone's chain! Why is this thread continuing? :confused:

Oh well, just thought I'd toss in my $ .00001 cents worth into this mess. And don't bother responding, 'cause I've read enough of this nonsense. Won't be back to this thread ever again. Cheers, -Ed-
:rapture: