PRA airport and more to the story...

[GyroRon]

Spoke for a good long while today to Pam at PRA. Learned alot about PRA history and about the dealings with the airport and PRA moneys.

One thing people need to understand is the Airport costs the PRA 1000$ per month. This is to pay for the airport, and it is almost paid off. According to what Pam said, once the airport is paid off - less than a year away - the PRA no longer has to pay this payment................

If you think about it, the PRA would need someplace to call home. Be it a airport... a Small office building... a Rented office space... somewhere. Not many places to rent or pay mortage on a decent office space for around a grand a month is there??? By locating to this airport and paying a grand a month towards it, the PRA is now only a year from owning it free and clear with no more payments! How in the world would you do that if your renting someplace? The fact that the PRA owns a Airport instead of renting office space is the best option possible in many many ways.

Another tid bit I learned is ALOT of Pra members made private donations to help buy this airport. There was a large downpayment made to secure the property, and the bulk of that money was funded by private donations. For those that demand the airport is sold, do you think these people should get their money back???

As for the thought that this airport is in the backyard of some of the board members... Pam tells me there is hardly a sole around the airport except for special events and the convention. From what I could gather, there is little to no regular gyro activity there. She said the closest person to the airport that would likely use it for gyros is her and her husband and apparently they don't live all that close either.

There is alot of debate and fighting over who owns the airport and why the two boards etc.... Bottom line is the leaders we have voted in to run our PRA decided years ago that the way it is set up now is the best way to set it up. It has been fine and has not been a problem until the last year or two. Yes the way it is set up now, the board members on the PRA Mentone board - who controls the airport - could "Steal" the airport if they wanted to. But no court of law would allow it. Some will say the PRA could not afford to sue to get the airport back, true... But do any of you who really know Gary and the rest of the board think this would ever happen? It is ridiculous and insulting to even think it much less go on and on about it like we have here.

Do any of you know how long Gary has been our President? Do you know how much time of his life he has invested for the PRA?? Do you know how much of his own personal money he has given to the PRA over the years??? Maybe there has and still is better ways to do some things in the PRA, but you can't say the man is a bad man and to imply that he would steal the airport after all he is done.... what a shame.

There is so much that can be learned if any of you people would just pick up the phone and call Pam, or Gary or any of the long time PRA people... I can tell you one thing, I will be very surprised if after learning everything concerning this airport issue that you don't feel as crappy as I do for ever thinking Gary would "take" our airport.

Gary if you read this or get it passed on to you, I want to say I AM SORRY. I also want you to know I admire you for all you have done for the PRA.

[bogman]

Thanks for that Ron

[KenSandyEggo]

"As for the thought that this airport is in the backyard of some of the board members... Pam tells me there is hardly a sole around the airport except for special events and the convention. From what I could gather, there is little to no regular gyro activity there. She said the closest person to the airport that would likely use it for gyros is her and her husband and apparently they don't live all that close either."

So the point of buying the airport is.......?? For one fly-in a year? What's large down payments? Do they match the moneys that we the members have poured into it? How many were repaid? I know some were.

No one's saying Gary and Glenn are crooks, but it is bad practice for the ownership of the airport to be in 2 person't names, names other than the PRA membership. We paid for the thing, along with the expensive repaving. No good explanation has ever been given for this move and the membership has been told for years that the PRA owned it when this was not the fact at all. There were board members that did not know that only 2 names were on the deed. Why was it kept secret for so long? "PRA Mentone" was unknown to most people.

Was that a Freudian slip when Gary told someone to "Get the f**k off MY airport," or should we take it literally? Gary and Glenn "probably" won't take our airport, BUT there are no safeguards in place preventing them from doing so if they wish. Circumstances like this should never have been allowed to occur in the first place. What is stopping Gary and Glenn from turning proper ownership of the airport to the PRA right now.....like today? Like it should have been originally. The membership of the PRA should not have to trust and wait...and wait....and wait for someone to do the right thing. It should have already been done.

[Dean_Dolph]

Ron, are you trying to take the fun out of life for the conspiracy crowd?!!:)

I want to compliment you on a couple things. First is the fact that you did something by calling Pam that anyone of the people that have questioned the integrity of Gary and the BOD could have done but didn't. Getting at the truth would have taken all the fun out it I guess.

Second admitting that you had joined the wrong crowd in questioning the airport deal and then apologizing was a stand up thing to do and says a lot for your character. I can't speak for everyone here but I've seen a lot of personal growth since you first joined us.

Third, your writing composition has improved tremendously and consequently you display rational thought. Well, most of the time!:D

Your comments about Gary are ones you hear when you have an opportunity to discuss the PRA with those that have worked closely with him. Jim Mayfield recently made a post alluding to the depth of things that Gary has done for the organization. It is hard to tell but it sounded like he has learned some things that he didn't know before. There are so many stories of Gary reaching in his pocket to pay for something that I've lost track of all of them.

I recently was told that he and Art Evans (another big PRA benefactor) provided the mobile building that is the Mentone office free of charge. It didn't cost the PRA anything. Gary is low profile and does not self promote or bother to respond to unwarranted attacks. It is obvious that he is comfortable in his own skin and knows he has done the right things. It is unfortunate and unfair that his dedication and integrity have ever been questioned.

[Chuck Roberg]

Ron, Glad to hear you came over from the "dark Side".

But seriously, you have not said anything that has not been said by others here before. They didn't believe before. Hopefully they will believe now. Well except maybe Ken :D :D :D But he does make some good points.

[Adam H]

I am far from an expert but I have been told by reputable sources that the reason the airport is not held by the PRA is to insulate the PRA from any liability that would go along with owning an airport. Also, I can say from experience that $1000 per month would be nothing to pay for office space, let alone an entire airport! At this point since we're so close to owning it and at the very least being able to have our headquarters there rent free, why not just keep it? I think it's great that we have our own airport, and I'm told any PRA member can camp there for free (when the convention isn't going on), what a great place for a new guy to be able to peacefully fly his machine without having to worry about fixed wing traffic and people unfriendly toward gyros.

[KenSandyEggo]

Adam, that liability issue has been shot with so many holes, it looks like Swiss cheese. Is the PRA so asset-rich that we have to guard it? We have no assets, so what needs to be protected? If someone got hurt at Mentone and won a big judgment, they'd get the airport no matter whose name it's in.
Am I guessing that Homer Glenn is not too far from Mentone? The guys in Pakistan, Australia, South Africa and the like, and anyone more than 50 miles from it, probably would find it a little hard to hang around at Mentone, yet they're helping pay for it.

I'd suggest that any people unfriendly toward gyros may have a reason to be so.....like maybe buzzing, careless flying, noise, no N-numbers, no pilot's certificates and the like...... all things that can be cured with a little effort.

[GyroRon]

The problem is no one bothers to get off their ass and get facts on stuff. If I had said something.... anything.... and it was favorable to someones elses arguement it would be passed on and on here as fact. If what I said works against that persons arguement then perhaps what I said would questioned or even dismissed.

Alot of the stuff we tend to believe on this forum is second, third, fourth, or even hundred and thirty seventh hand information and there is no telling if it was ever true to begin with.

Almost all the information people are using in their anti airport debates as fact is just stuff someone else here said sometime ago and there is no telling what is true and what is not.

Why did even board members not know about there being a separate board to handle the airport? Some here have jumped to conclusions and passed off their conclusion so many times it is beginning to look like a fact.... But the honest truth of the matter is none of them bothered to ask before.

Some might go on to say that it was Garys responsibilty to tell everyone in the PRA how they set it up and why...

Well as President of our local chapter I can tell you that often, maybe even as much as weekly, Ray Pierce Tres. John Magnum Sec. Randy Berry Vice Pres. and myself make decisions for our chapter in many ways including financial Without ever speaking to our chapter about it or explaining ourselves. Our members voted us in office in good faith that we would take care of our chapter and our chapters assets and that we would lead, and that is what we do.

I don't think Gary and the other PRA officers need to explain everything they do to everyone else, and if members are concerned with something or fear there was wrong doing then the members need to vote out the officers and replace with better officers. Pam tells me Gary has been our President for 19 years and counting. This airport mess has been around for over a year, yet Gary won the 2005 election again just the same, so obviously most people still have faith in the man.

Ken my challenge to you and others that share your same view point is for you guys to MAKE SOME PHONE CALLS and collect some firsthand facts. Then draw your conclusions. Talk to Ernie Boyette, or Dave Prater, or Tom Milton if you want to talk to look time members who have also been long time board members that are not connected to this airport wrong doing conspiracy theory. Call Pam, or even dare I say Gary himself and see if you can get facts.



I still don't understand why us having a airport for a grand a month as opposed to having a small cramped office space for a grand a month does not make sence to everyone out there. It simply blows my mind how anyone that sits down and thinks about it for a few minutes can not see the good reasoning behind it.

Does it suck for Scott Hegar that it is probably over 2000 miles away and that he may never fly there? Sure it does. Sucks that it isn't in my backyard too. But it has to be somewhere and that is where those that WE as the PRA members voted into office decided was a good place for it.

EAA is based in Oskosh. EAA doesn't own a airport but they have more than 10 times what we have invested in our airport, invested in just one of their vintage warbirds. And EAA members still have to pay a enormous sum to take a ride on that warbird that their membership dues helped to purchase, restore and operate now. And that is but one plane, the EAA owns several planes, buildings, hangars, etc.... Oskosh is a long way away from Scott Hegar too, but that is life.

Sunstate rotor club in Florida has members world wide, yet their home base is in Labelle Florida. Let me tell you guys that unless you are a trucker in the Orange hauling business, your likely to never go to or pass through Labelle. But yet right on the end of the runway in Labelle Florida, Sunstate rotorclub has a nice Mobile home / Club house / Museum that any club member is welcome to drop in and visit, or bring a camper and hook into the power and water hook ups, and spend as much time as you feel like it there enjoying what the club has set up. I have never heard anyone complain about it. And Mentone is the same thing only on a grander scale. Any PRA member is free to drop in and camp and fly and so on... Might not be close by and might even be out of the way, but it is there for you to use and costs you nothing extra.

[GyroRon]

And why Is PRA's home in Mentone?

Well because quite simply that is in the general area that the people who are the DO of the PRA are at.

Sunstate rotorclub is primarly focused on southwest Florida, but they really cover nearly the entire state of Florida and have members worldwide. Yet their home is in the rinky dink little orange grove town of Labelle Florida. Why not Sarasota? or Tampa? Or Orlando? All more centrally located places..... No they are in Labelle because that is close to where the DO people in that chapter live.

Our Chapter is based in Aiken. Why Aiken??? Well that is where the people in our chapter that ran our chapter lived. At this momment there is no one hangared with a gyro in Aiken and no one even close to Aiken that is flying gyros. Closest people with flying gyros is probably myself and Ultracruiser and were 150 miles away. But the main people who DO for our chapter, the people who manage the bank account, the people who look after our chater hangar, the people who work hard to set up our fly-in, etc... all live in the Aiken area.

I wish Mentone wasn't mentone at all. It would be much nicer to have our PRA headquarters and airport somewhere closer and maybe closer to a bigger city. But the people who are the DO people for the PRA live in that region of the country and that is why the airport is where it is. There is snow to be shoveled.... Grass to mow... leaky pipes to fix.... lots of major work to set up for the convention.... if the PRA's homebase was in Corona California or Charlotte N.C. or Key West Florida, who is going to do these things? Should Gary and the other Officers have to drive to cali or the carolinas etc... to mow the grass each week?

[KenSandyEggo]

Ron, don't you think that buying an airport is a little more important to the members and other board members than paying the exterminator and for a roll of stamps? Like buying an airport is just a ho-hum, 'nuther day at the PRA. "We don't have to say nuthin, no one cares." I'd say the responses here indicate that a lot of people care. Some like it and some don't. Some people see through the cracks and some never will. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

By the way, $750 per month got me a 1,000 square foot store in a busy urban area in a strip mall on a main drag in San Diego with a bathroom, heat and air-conditioning. If you pay $1,000 a month for a cramped office, you got royally screwed, especially in the fields of Mentone.

[PW_Plack]

Ron, I appreciate your post, and I hope things work out OK. I've only been a member four years, so I don't feel I have as much to lose as some people here.

Lots of organizations wind up like this. A few people do all the work, put in their own money to get things done, and gradually gain a sense that they're entitled to do whatever they want without asking members, or the board, because the group "owes them for all they've done."

I was in a ham radio group that ran this way, and couple of the leaders finally got burned out from doing all the work. They got ticked off at being told "no" by the board a few times, and felt betrayed after doing lots of extra work all those years. They sabotaged the club's equipment on their way out. This was a group with about 400 members, and a $70,000 trust fund.

I hope the PRA/airport saga turns out OK, but it could go either way.

Three miles from my apartment here in Hillsboro, Oregon, there's an office building which will rent an office to small businesses for $250/month. That includes a shared, full-time receptionist who answers your lines with your business name, and use of common copier, conference room, and bathrooms. You bring in phone lines and have your phones hooked up, and you're in business. They have these setups in most cities, and it might be perfect for an operation such as PRA.

I had trouble one time when hotel rooms I'd reserved weren't available when I got there. I didn't feel the need to buy a hotel to solve the problem, even though I could probably have made a profit doing it.

[TomCarlisle]

When we had the national convention in Texas, it cost us almost enough to make the payments on Mentone for a year. When we got through, the improvements we had made became the property of the local airport and the convention was not as well attended as Mentone. So, I believe we are getting our moneys worth at Mentone and I am satisfied that I get more than my dues worth with just the magazine. I belong to some organizations that cost more and give less.

[Rando]

So, I believe we are getting our moneys worth at Mentone and I am satisfied that I get more than my dues worth with just the magazine. I belong to some organizations that cost more and give less.I agree with Tom. Thank you Gary G. and all you do for the PRA!

[Brent_Brown]

Did Gary kick Bob Miller out on the Airport telling him it is my airport? If so why? He was a ASC BFI. Bob is one of the best instructor I have trained with.

[Rando]

Did Gary kick Bob Miller out on the Airport telling him it is my airport? If so why? He was a ASC BFI. Bob is one of the best instructor I have trained with.Why don't you pick up the phone and give Gary a call and ask him for the REAL story instead of listening to hearsay?

[carlschneider]

Ken

SIT DOWN.

CARL

[GyroRon]

Yes arguements can be made that on some back alley in some town in Oregon a retail office space could be rented for 250 a month.... so why are we paying a grand a month for a entire airport?

What part of no more payments after it is paid off do you people not understand? That 250$ month place, will they give you free rent for life after 15 years of payments?

The airport is on 50+ acres of land. There is income to the PRA that will continue to come in once the airport is paid off. In one year the PRA will not only have a free home, but the home will be making money for the PRA.

To everyone out there that says a cheaper place could have been picked, how about posting the square footage of your house, how much it cost and where is it located. Maybe what kinds of vehicles you drive as well... I am sure I can help you find a cheaper house to live in and a cheaper car as well.

Did Gary tell someone to get off his airport? I don't have any idea. I do know Gary well enough to know he wouldn't do this with dam good reason. Not to mention you people have made it out to sound much worse than I am sure it is. I don't own the Aiken S.C. Airport, and I don't own the ROC fly-in or Chapter 13... but if someone is there at ROC causing a major problem I will not waste anytime to ask them to get out of my fly-in. Is it my fly-in, no not really but I can easily see myself using these words.

[barnstorm2]

Great posts Ron!

[Heron]

See . . .there are good points and bad points . . .so lets play around!
Heron

[KenSandyEggo]

"Ken

SIT DOWN.

CARL"

O.K.

[KenSandyEggo]

"I wear my roooooose-colored glasses."

Elvis Presley, from "The Farmer in the Dell," circa 1954.

[KenSandyEggo]

Why do all the proponents of the airport purchase go on and on and on with what a good idea it is and what a great investment it is, but suggest that those don't agree with them should shut up because we're causing trouble? Those that don't agree have just as much a right to post their views as the pro-airporters. We are assumed stupid because we don't see it their way...."Can't you get it? What's not to understand, etc." What part do you people not understand?" If you're going to tout the greatness of it all, be prepared to accept dissenting opinions. That's life in the U.S. of A. I don't think the pros are stupid, maybe a little gullible for accepting all the shenanigans that have happened over the years.

[GyroRon]

Ken, again all I ask is for you to make some phone calls and gather some facts beyond the heresay that has been floating around on the forum and then be as negative about it as you want. I never asked you to shut up about it, just to educate yourself better on the matter then let the opinions fly!

Or not. Free world and you can do what you want!!! ;)

In the meantime, instead of complaining, how about coming up with Kens way to fix PRAs problems, and what to do with the airport, the offices, the moneys etc.... That would be a nice read and I look forwards to hearing what your thoughts are on it.

Going out to Goose Creek in a little bit. Will be there all weekend too! Last screw off week for me before regular mowing scedule starts next week. Radio guy on your J-2 is MIA haven't seen him all week. Installed 3 more light fixtures in the hangar so the light level is much brighter now. Looking to get a mini fridge to keep plugged in so we got cold drinks out there....

[KenSandyEggo]

Fix: Sell the airport, if we ever legally can, use the money to properly promote the PRA at fly-ins, with ads in appropriate magazines and upgrade the PRA magazine.

Facts: The PRA does NOT own the airport, Gary and Glenn do. We are in a situation where we are relying on someone else to do the right thing and transfer the airport to the ones that paid for it. That secretive purchase of the airport and keeping the ownership secret for so many years, even though stating numerous times that the PRA owned the airport, does not sit right with a lot of people.

If ownership actually reverts to the PRA, I'll get off my soap-box, but why hasn't it yet been done? They could do it this afternoon if they wanted to, or at least within a week. What's the hold-up?

Are you going to provide the cold drinks as a tenant benefit? I better phone radio-man and see what's up. This itch to fly is getting uncontrollable.

[Rehan K.Janjua]

Thank you Ron.

Its certainly nice to see you are on PRA and my side.
Would love to have Pam and Mr Garry G on the forum.

We are die hard PRA members.
Best Regards.

[Heron]

Ken . . .forget selling the aiport and lets buy another one, with this platform you get my vote for President.
Ken in the White House now!!! :D
Heron (I knew it all along)

[KenSandyEggo]

O.K., Heron. Let's buy this one. The main house is going for around $365,000. I'll volunteer to stay in it and mow the grass as needed. Oh! By the way, it's in the Charlotte area.


http://www.aviationhomes.com/country_squire.html

[Heron]

There you go! It sounds nice but with lots of owners I am afraid we are going to have some issues there!
I wonder if we could have some kind of partnership with an airport here in Florida. Immokalee is a good place.
So you are inviting other guys to run with you in the same ticket?
Heorn

[Brent_Brown]

Why don't you pick up the phone and give Gary a call and ask him for the REAL story instead of listening to hearsay?

No I like hearsay.

[Vance]

I like the PRA. I like the airport in Mentone. I think that my $175 membership has produced value for me. I like my magazine. I like flying. I like autogyros. I like this forum. Life treats me well!

Thank you, Vance

[KenSandyEggo]

Vance, you malcontent hooligan. ;)

[Vance]

Hello Ken, was that humor?
I have always thought of myself as a hooligan, but I am confused about the malcontent part.

Thank you, Vance

[GyroRon]

Ken, please show me where or how you come up with Gary and Glenn owning the airport to be fact.

Also show me where it is fact that all this was done in secret.

Quote from Brent Brown.... No I like hearsay. Finally! Someone with balls enough to admit that they are not concerned enough with the truth to collect and discuss real facts, and instead just base their rants on rumor and heresay. Thanks Brent for at least being honest.

[KenSandyEggo]

Ron, don't you remember when someone contacted the Indiana Secretary of State's Office and paid something like 3 bucks, got a copy of the incorporation papers and posted it right here or maybe late in Norm's Forum? It was right there in black and white. The corporation was PRA Mentone and the only 2 shareholders were Gary and Glenn. As far as I know, the shareholders are the owners of a corporation, no matter what the membership is "told."

When this paper was posted, it started a lot of controversy because almost no one knew it was set up that way. Everyone thought that the PRA actually owned the airport. This belief was held for numerous years, because no one was informed of this setup. Don't you think the members had a right to know from the gitgo that they were basically being lied to everytime it was said and even written in the mag that PRA owned the airport? The only ones that own it are the shareholders of PRA Mentone. Gee, do you think that maybe that similar-sounding name means anything? What gave them the right to use "PRA" in their incorporation papers? They were not "PRA," they were a completely different organization. Could we call ourselves General Motors Goose Creek and get away with it?

Here, how's this? I just spent $2.04 to get this from the Indiana Secretary of State. This is the 2nd time it's been posted:


Name Searched On:
PRA MENTONE (Legal)
Current Information
Entity Legal Name:
PRA MENTONE, INC.

Entity Address:
12296 W. 600 S., MENTONE, IN 46539


General Entity Information:

Control Number: 1995041587
Status: Active
Entity Type: Non-Profit Domestic Corporation

Entity Creation Date: 4/28/1995
Entity Date to Expire:
Entity Inactive Date:

The Business Entity Report(s) is(are) due for this entity by 04/30/2006 . Click here to file the Business Entity Report.
There are no other names on file for this Entity.


Registered Agent(name, address, city , state , zip):
Gerald Goldsberry
12296 W. 600 S.
MENTONE , IN 46539

Principals(name, address, city, state, zip - when provided)
Gerald Goldsberry
President
2235 State Road 42
MOORESVILLE , IN 46158

Glenn N. Bundy Jr.
Secretary
207 W. South St. PO Box 146
BURKET , IN 46508

Transactions:

Date Filed Effective Date Type
04/28/1995 04/28/1995 Articles of Incorporation
06/07/2005 06/07/2005 Articles of Amendment



Corporate Reports:
Years Paid
1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005

Years Due
2006

Now, there was an amendment filed on 6/7/2005. What that was, who knows, seeing as no information is ever passed down to the members except what they want us to know.

[GyroRon]

The amendment was also posted here a while back. I am too lazy to search for it right now, but in a nutshell it states that if PRA Mentone were to sell off it's assets the proceeds would have to go to PRA INC.

Of course the people who don't trust the person who has been voted as leader of the PRA for 19 years running have said that the amendment is great but what if the PRA wants to sell the airport and PRA Mentone says no....

The easiest solution to this mess would be for the BYlaws of both Orgs to be revised to state that the elected officers of the PRA also become the elected officers and shareholders of PRA Mentone inc.

[KenSandyEggo]

"Hello Ken, was that humor?"

Yes, Vance. As happy as you are with everything, you couldn't possibly be a malcontent.

[Timchick]

Ken,
Just what are you trying to say? Speak english. What's your gripe?

[KenSandyEggo]

".........but in a nutshell it states that if PRA Mentone were to sell off it's assets the proceeds would have to go to PRA INC."

You sure? I seem to recall it as having to be sold to another non-profit corporation, not necessarily the PRA. It COULD be the PRA. We sure can't be making any profits if we have to cut back on the magazine to save money. Whatever.....it only took 10 years for them to file it, right after the time everyone was making a stink.

[KenSandyEggo]

Ron, what does tenure in office have to do with anything? My old Congressman in California, Randy "Duke" Cunningham served for years and years in Congress. He was sentenced today to 8 years and 4 months in a federal penitentiary for accepting millions in bribes and income-tax evasion. He also has to pay 2 million in back taxes owed. He would have gotten more, but the judge said he was taking into consideration that he was awarded the Navy Cross and was a top fighter pilot. And, there's no parole or time off for good behavior in the federal system. You serve until the very last day of your sentence.

[KenSandyEggo]

"Just what are you trying to say? Speak english. What's your gripe?"

What!!? I just wasted $2.04??

[Jazzenjohn]

The way I read it there are two Principals, a President and a Secretary. Just because someone is President of a corporation Doesn't mean they are the Owner. Just because someone is the Secretary of a corporation Doesn't mean they are the Owner. That means you Lied Ken. Whether you Lied because you are a pot stirrer, or you Lied because because you were ignorant of the facts, you nevertheless Lied. Every time you claimed they were the owners you Lied.

Are you man enough to apologize or are you going to make some mealy mouth excuse?

[GyroRon]

So Ken, what should we do? Sounds like we have been getting duke'd for the last 10 years now if we are to go along with your arguement.

[Udi]

Ken - every non-profit organization has the names of some of it’s officers (agents, principles, whatever) in the paperwork. They are not the owners -- they are the people who are legally in charge. Can these people sell the airport? Yes - but they won't see a dime out of the sale because they are not the owners. The corporation is the owner. Can they write check for themselves? Yes they can, but they will have to move out of the country if they want to stay out of jail.

When I was the VP of our congregation I had the authority to buy and sell property and write checks. None of it could or would go into my pocket. The only way to make personal profit out of a non-profit org., as an officer of this org, is thru corrupt or illegal means. If you think that Gary or Glenn are corrupt or criminal, Ken… are you forgetting to take those little pink pills again?

Come on People - get off of this airport issue. There is no reason to believe anything fishy is going on. To the contrary -- I believe we (PRA members) are EXTREMELY lucky to have had Gary and others get this airport property for us. Other similar organizations can only dream of owning their own airport. Frankly, I am ashamed of the way we have treated Gary in the past couple of years. No wonder he wants to quit – what a bunch of unthankful parasites we are.

This airport is not anywhere close to my back yard, but I can go play there whenever I want! You too! Further, I believe in time the airport will generate enough income to help support the mag, safety programs, and other member services.

What did the airport cost you and me? Nothing! We would have paid the same PRA membership whether the office was still located at the back of a funeral home OR at OUR AIRPORT. We are so lucky to have had Gary pull this off and how do we thank him? We tell him he is a crook…

Udi

[KenSandyEggo]

John, get out a dictionary if you own one and look up the word principal. They are both listed as principals, BESIDES officers. "There are no other names on file for this Entity." Who's left? Does it show any other stockholders/principals? I'll save you the time of going to Wal*Mart and buying a dictionary. Principal means owner, John. You might also want to find out what constitutes a corporation. I'm ignorant?

You're letting your emotions over-ride your common sense and judgment by calling me a liar. I guess the Secretary of State is a liar too. A president and secretary are usually required when forming a corporation. It's a title, John. Principal is the key word. There are only 2 principals listed. Get a clue before you go spouting off about stuff you obviously are grossly ignorant of and making false accusations.

[KenSandyEggo]

"What did the airport cost you and me?"

Let's see. What did the airport cost us? Before the purchase, the PRA was much more prosperous than it is now. We got 12 issues of the magazine. After the airport purchase, we're hearing that we are nearly broke, we better do something to increase membership, the magazine keeps getting cut back, rumors of people not getting paid, no one answering the phone or replying to e-mails, a screwed up website that won't let people join and pay dues, plummeting membership, and an organization that is sliding down the slippery slope of insolvency. That's all it's cost us. All that money spent on the airport and it's repaving could have gone a long way toward keeping the PRA solvent and recruiting new members. We've already heard from chapters that get no help whatsoever to recruit members at their fly-ins. "Sorry, the airport needs some new striping or something."

[Jazzenjohn]

It's you that needs a dictionary Ken.

The definition of principal is: A governing or presiding officer. In law it is: The person primarily responsible for an obligation.

While I was looking up stuff in the dictionary...

LIAR: A person who tells lies.

[gyroblackwell]

Ron,

Thanks for taking the time to talk to Pam, and get the facts. Sorry to see that some people still insist on stiring the waters, and trying to accuse GOOD PEOPLE.

I have been trying to pass this info along to all of you for a year now..... no-one wanted to listen .... or I just can't get the point across like ron can :D

Ken .... until you actually go to mentone and see the office,hangers,and all the other things that the MEMBERS (that actually do things... build things.... and donate time) your words are just dust in the wind with no substance to back them up other then the knowledge that you enjoy pissing others off, ... and your second grade teacher probably wrote on your report card that " kenny does not play well with other children" and "kenny is not happy unless he is hurting someone or something else" ;)

O.K. now I am starting to act like you Ken .... I will stop that right here and now.

Since Ron has let the info out, I will add some. Gary, Art, and a few others dumped more money into the purchase of the airport then all of us PRA mambers combined.

Guys like Glen Bundy have done more FREE work, Have maintained the airport at no cost, and have added value to the airport in the form of equipment, and personal time far above any of us PRA members.

So go ahead and bite the fellow PRA member that has put so much of his time into making a better PRA for you and me.

Glen and PAM are the CATFISH and MJ of the north.

Ron is the CATFISH of the mid east.

What are you KENinKerroLina?

I hope we all can now focus on the next couple of years for the PRA.

I want to throw my hat in as running for president of the PRA this coming July. Now you all know my intent.

I will post a more formal announcement at Bensen Days.

Thanks for your time..... and thanks again Ron for your efforts and this thread.

[Heron]

Oh Brother!!! :(

Plot #1: The Gang is Up to no Good
Not a very good plot, they can be made accountable and have more to loose than to gain.

Plot #2: The Well Intentioned President and His Zealous Support Group
They thought out a cover up plot to protect the PRA and that is the reason they misspelled the thruth, there is no sense in leting everyone know it is a cover up. NOt a very bright think but an attempt to do good anyway.

It is wrong in any case and Ken is right, I don think OUR GUYS are trying to double cross the PRA (after all they are it) and the other side is right.
So everyone is right and the Airport is a good thing and should stand.

Now administration seems to be a big problem in A-Mess-Rica . . .
WE can fix it, lets work together, unless some people have a real beef and it is impossible for them to be around each other, I don't see that . . .

Heron
Forgot . . .Tim B you are welcome and I hope more people throw their hats. You are going to have lots of support and I hope the advice from the actual BOD.

[Brent Drake]

I do not know your states corporation laws. But I do know Indiana Since I've owned 3 Corps for many years. The President of the Corp measns that he is the one the state goes to for answers. The President was voted in buy the the board of directors. It only makes sense. It does not mean he owns anything just the one in charge of singning corporate to sign for leagal matters. Brent

[KenSandyEggo]

Brent, if you read it carefully, he's listed first as the agent. The agent is the one who would be the subject of any papers that are served and who the State would go to for information. He's the contact person so to speak. Secondly, he and Glenn are listed as principals. It also states that no other names were provided for this entity. The president was voted in by what board of directors? He was voted in as president of the PRA. Look again and you will see that this corporation is "PRA Mentone," a completely different corporation that has no legal connection to the PRA. No one voted Gary or Glenn to their positions on the PRA Mentone Corporation. They formed it themselves and appointed themselves as the only 2 members and shareholders, and kept it a secret from the membership. This only came out a couple of years ago, if that. As the only 2 shareholders of PRA Mentone Incorporated, which owns the airport, they in fact own the airport. They are the only shareholders. Only they have control of the corporation that owns the airport. There is no one else. Of course if this is beyond the comprehension of anyone like Jazzenjohn, who somehow thinks this is all a made-up lie, I don't know what to tell ya. It's in black and white for anyone that can read with some comprehension.

Another question that I'd like some of the board members of PRA, like Tommy, Tim or Jim to answer or find out is this. There is some income from the airport. One of the sources is land that is leased out to a farmer for crop-growing. Does that money find it's way into the PRA treasury somehow? "PRA Mentone" owns the airport, so where does it go? Does this money get transferred to "PRA?" I think the membership has a right to know. In fact we have a right to see a yearly financial report. I recall seeing one posted here a few years back that got raked over the coals. There were outrageous amounts of money listed as "Bank Fees" among other nebulous entries.

Now everything may be completely aboveboard and being run like a church, but do we have to guess or trust that it is? That's my bone of contention. We have no way of knowing what is going on with our dues and moneys. All we know is that we are going broke.

Now if you're satisfied with the way things are being run, just hold still, because all of this will be totally ignored and everyone will sit around in Mentone and wait until it all goes away. We still won't know crap. The only difference between now and the "old days," is that in the old days, everything was close to the vest, no one got any information from anyone and they did whatever they wanted.....gee, like buying an airport with no input from the members.

Now we have the Internet, this Forum and some new blood on the board that hopefully will see the folly of "that's how we've always done it." Seeing as the PRA is basically broke, I believe all of us should see an accounting of where the money goes and why are we broke. To do otherwise is stupid. How has the PRA been "improved" in the past years, Tim? It's been bled to death to where it is a barely alive corpse and you know it.

[BUD ONEAL]

Thank You Ron,
For having the balls to admit that you were duped.Thank you for taking the time to call Pam and getting the answers.
Our heartfelt thanks to Gary,Glen,Pam and everyone who has pulled my share of the load at mentone all these years! May god bless each and every one of them,Our board members as well.
Bud

[Heron]

Gee . . .is this a Broke BAck Mountain trend? :D
Interesting situation, two people that I care for and love in different sides of issues . . .
Ken is right and Bud is right, now can two rights make one wrong?
PRA needs more everything, had some mistakes and can fix them, just need to recognise and expose them for analysis and suggestions (general membership to BOD > Executive Branch)
If you keep asking Ken for his views on the matter he will keep giving them as he sees it, until things change or he gets different facts from de official sources and that should be considered normal behavior, or we all should drop it and throw confetti all over ourselves for a job well done?
OR maybe we are just paranoid and the world is hunky dory!
Heron

[PW_Plack]

There's nothing wrong with Ken's expression of his concerns, except perhaps the form is a little rough-edged at times.

PRA is not a family, it's a legal entity which solicits money from thousands of people as a non-profit organization, supposedly for specific purposes. No matter how much you may personally like and respect the leadership, they are not entitled to buy property to be held by an unrelated private corporation.

I believe this will all work out fine in the end, and I have great respect for the accomplishments of these guys, but the end does not justify the means. This was an example of questionable judgement, and poor communication. It's probably too late to fix, but Ken and others are doing the right thing to shine a bright light on this. It shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

[Heron]

Questionable judgement? just an apologie and point the right direction . . .
Poor communication? change channels and welcome to the dance . . .
Heron

[Gary_in_Orygun]

If you strip away the details of this discussion, you will find that a number of PRA members would like an accounting of the financial aspect of the organization. So, let's do that. Let's see a year-end financial report for 2005. And while we are at it, let's see how the airport figures into that.

How much does the airport cost? How much does the newsletter cost? What are our other expenditures? What income is coming from the airport (if any)? What do we take in from dues?

Let's see this printed in the magazine...let's have a yearly financial report available every year. Our PRA chapter 73 has a running financial report available to all paid members on the pra73.net website. Why doesn't the mother ship do the same?

Whoever is running for president or the board needs to address these issues for me if they want my vote (or my sustained membership).

[gyrogreg]

This thread is absolutely embarassing, and certainly not addressing real issues that are pertinent to gyroplane sport growth and safety. This is a waste of good energy and good people, and I certainly wouldn't blame a lot of the people who have donated so much time and money to the PRA and its members to just up and say "screw it". Gratefully, they have a lot of integrity and loyalty - and very thick skins!!

"What did the airport cost you and me?"

Let's see. What did the airport cost us? Before the purchase, the PRA was much more prosperous than it is now. We got 12 issues of the magazine. After the airport purchase, we're hearing that we are nearly broke, we better do something to increase membership, the magazine keeps getting cut back, rumors of people not getting paid, no one answering the phone or replying to e-mails, a screwed up website that won't let people join and pay dues, plummeting membership, and an organization that is sliding down the slippery slope of insolvency. That's all it's cost us. All that money spent on the airport and it's repaving could have gone a long way toward keeping the PRA solvent and recruiting new members. We've already heard from chapters that get no help whatsoever to recruit members at their fly-ins. "Sorry, the airport needs some new striping or something."

The financial problems with the magazine and such are not the result of purchase of the airport. Do the math. 10 years ago the PRA had over 6000 members @ $35 per year. Today we have fewer than 3000 members @ $45/yr. Factor in the increased production and postage costs, and the increased cost to pay an editor for pretty thankless hard work, and you might understand why we can't afford quite as many magazines a year as before. As an investment, the $15,000/yr the airport is only marginally significant because we, like many clubs, lost members!

Why did we lose those members? Well, 9/11 happened. The Economy tanked for a while. Aviation and other clubs all lost membership and funds. Security and FAA rules were in a flux. But, I think we also lost membership for other reasons - we lost Paul Abbot and the very high quality mag he was able to somehow sustain by shear human will! We attracted members who seem to expect the PRA should do for them what the EAA is able to do for its members! It used to be that PRA members contributed to the mag, committees, etc. more - now the vocal ones just seem to expect the PRA to do things for them.

I suggest we also lose members when too many forum discussions reflect the community is stuck on unproducive and unconstructive and confusing finger pointing and name calling. Let's face it, the ranting on these forums often suggests this community is a bit less than professional - polarized into often childish defensive and argumentative positions. If I were just joining the gyro community, I would certainly have expected something much more constructive!

Let me tell you, for a totally voluntary org as the PRA is, if you want things done, you have to stand up and do them. It is embarrassing all the time and energy that is expended by some on this forum when they could actually be doing some constructive things - even if those constructive things might be formulating and edeveloping some real and practical real suggestions and solutions - rather than just reactionary criticizm of those who do do the work.

But, is this just the a reflection of the baby boomer me me me generation that we see far too much of in regular society and politics these days?

By the way, the donors don't want to make too much of this, but much of the fix-up work at Mentone, including the re-paving of the runway, was from donations (money and labor) - not from PRA dues! I have been astounded these silent donors still manage to continue bailing out the PRA amongst so much flak! If we could get some volunteers now, willing to actually put in some time and work, we could now probably figure out how to make the dept-free airport pay the PRA now! Any volunteers? At the Bensen Days BOD meeting in a month, I will be calling for an airport committee or coordinator to formulate options and implement actions to make the airport equity a paying resource for the PRA. Some suggestions have been to use airport equity to install CC fuel pumps, add hangar doors to attract more and higher hangar fees, rent or lease property to other organizations, even to plan the airport as an airpark with sales of lots! We may actually need to pay an airport manager or a consultant! Or, we could just sell it and buy another couple years of magazines for everyone! If you think you have real solutions or suggestions - please let me know you volunteer to help or take on this responsibility - I'll suggest the BOD appoint you! I really think Gary and Glenn would very gladly let you do that - they may even be glad if you would volunteer your name on the airport Board - then see how it feels to have to put up with the flack and mouthing and great pay!

Yes, this thread is embarrassing and often insulting, and I'm certainly glad the PRA BOD and officers manage to stick to a higher road!

Thanks for your attention - Greg

[KenSandyEggo]

Greg, we're interested in our organization and want to know what's going on. How can you find that insulting and embarrassing and taking the low road? How about all the stone-walling the members have had to endure over the last years. Promised "letters" and explanations that never come. I find that insulting. Please read Paul Plack's, Gary Kaminski's and Ron Awad's posts. They succintly express the information that a lot of the members are clamoring for......communication and accounting. Maybe people don't feel like expending any energy toward an organization when there is practically no meaningful communication from the president/board and the financial situation is kept in the dark. All we hear is that we're going broke, more money is needed, but we get no accounting where the money goes.

Most here are not asking for something the PRA can do for us. No one wants the PRA to fail, but how can you expect efforts at fund-raising when there is no accounting for the funds that are received? It's easy for members to feel that we are throwing good money after bad. How much comes in and from where and how much goes out and to where. That simple accounting is provided to the members of any organization but ours. Why couldn't you have come here and answered a simple question I posted a short while back..."where does the income from the farmland leasing go?" Is that an insulting question to ask? Do you think that the members are not entitled to this information? Or, do you even know positively? All the income and all the expenditures should be public knowledge and posted somewhere at least yearly.

I don't recall any amount of name-calling here other than when I was called a liar for printing the Indiana incorporation papers by John Anderson. Greg, you know I appreciate all your efforts for the gyro community, but you're basically beating the same drum as others before you......quit complaining, trust everyone, don't bicker (discuss) in public, don't question the president or the Board, send more money, get more members. Sorry, but that isn't working for a lot of us anymore.

I believe the expenditure for paving the airport was documented in the one PRA expenditure report that was posted here awhile back. As I recall, it came out of the PRA's funds. All I hear is that so and so donated so much, what's his-name gave more than you'll know. Well, let us know. That's called standard accounting practices. Nothing has changed. There is one constant though, a reduction in members. Therefore I profer that doing the things the same old way doesn't work. Members want accountability and the assurance that their money isn't being wasted. That's a normal request from members of any dues-paying organization. I guess the PRA is different. That difference is causing a lot of membership loss.

Maybe we lost a lot of those 3,000 members because of the airport purchase that the members had no say about. Ever think of it that way? I know a lot of people resented that much money being spent without so much as a straw-poll of the members, as if they didn't exist.

[Heron]

Randy
I didn't get it! Please come again?
Heron

[KenSandyEggo]

There was no Forum when the airport was purchased, or for awhile after. Heron, it's the same old stuff.......trust everyone, don't ask any questions. Don't dare ask for a financial statement that everyone in every other dues paying organization gets to see, so we can determine if the organization is being efficiently run and if our moneys are being used the way we want them to be. I was going to mention getting an accountant, but the last one they had embezzled around $15,000, if I recall correctly, from the PRA and no one seemed to give a sh*t. Maybe a board member can bring us up to date. Was he ever prosecuted? Was there even a police report made? I don't know if there was, but I'd sure like to. Didn't seem like anyone was too concerned about it. Could be wrong, but a little communication about it would surely clear it up.

[Dean_Dolph]

Ken, for you info, and everyone else that doesn't already know, the PRA does provide a yearly accounting. This past year it was read at the general membership meeting by the PRA treasurer. That has been the case for entire time I have been a PRA member and have attended conventions. I suspect there is a legal requirement if nothing else.

Now having said that, I agree that the financial statement should be published in the magazine and there was a time when it was. I asked at the general membership meeting last year if the financial statement was going to be published and never received a firm yes or no but obviously it wasn't. I can certainly understand that to do that invites the unwarranted attacks that would then occur here.

I don't have your memory or keep a score card like you obviously do but it seems to me that the last time a financial statement was made public it raised a big furor here. It is okay, and the member's right, to take issue with where the money goes but the BOD is elected to make those decisions and I have confidence that they do so in good faith. But when those issues show up here it just becomes a big circus with no resolution.

The organization would be better served if members contacted the BOD directly rather than present their case here. Have you done that? Has anyone but me done that? A response might not meet your expectations time wise but my experience tells me that you will get one. That doesn't mean you will like, or agree, with the response.

The fact is that we don't have a clue as to what takes place in BOD meetings so don't know just how issues are massaged and a consensus reached. We don't know who the strong power players are or who rubber stamps stuff. But just from seeing what takes place at a friendly life members meeting where no one has any decision making responsibility tells me that a BOD meeting probably gets a little heated and interesting at times. The fact that BOD meeting agendas and minutes are not published does bother me.

I've said it so much that I'm sure people are getting tired of it but I believer ALL our issues stem from lack of communication. In this regard I DO hold the BOD responsible. But communication is a two way street and WE are responsible for the other half. Using this forum to communicate with the PRA BOD has already demonstrated to be inefficient when compared to direct email. So, when do you, or others, plan on emailing the BOD with your concerns?

I apologize to the BOD in advance if all of a sudden people agree with me (that would something new!) and you get a more emails than you can deal with! If that happens then at least please let the sender know that you have read the note.

[KenSandyEggo]

It did raise a furor, Dean. I recall there being an expenditure of "Bank fees" of something near $1,000. Maybe it was 8-hundred something, but whatever, it was deemed preposterous by a lot of people. As I recall, big sums were merely noted as "Office expenses," with no further explanation, and it wasn't Pam's salary.

As far as "keeping score," is it better that absolutely no one cares about the finances of the PRA and whether we are in fact broke, as I've been told by several people? Phone calls to a Board Member, who may or may not know anymore than anyone else here are fine, but I believe fresh air and sunshine are eventually more effective. Don't anyone tell me that any of the Board members have no clue as to what is being discussed here.

Why can't the Board just type up a letter of explanation of some of the issues that are tearing us apart and include it with the next magazine? That'd be an easy and almost cost-free method of at least some communication. But it seems that the modus operandi was, is and might always will be to just ignore everything, wait until it dies out and go on with business as usual.

[gyromike]

I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, or any other PRA Discussion thread, because I am ambivalent on the whole airport thing. And I hope this post is not taken as a slam against any current board member or officer of the PRA, but I saw a couple of people mention 'Communication' and 'Accountability' and I thought I might be able to add my perspective.

At my airport, there is a complex of T-hangars owned by a corporation. Shareholders, like myself, own the corporation. I own a single share in the corporation that entitles me to occupy a particular hangar for as long as I own the share, or until the lease runs out. The more shares you own, the more hangars you occupy. Monthly dues are collected for lawn service, sewer/water, office supplies, etc.

Some of the original board members of the corporation had died off, or moved away, and the President pretty much ran the corporation as he wanted. General meetings weren't held, and board minutes weren't published. He did not like to disclose the finances to anyone, or say where our monthly dues went. Anyhow, enough people got upset enough that a full board was reconstituted and he was replaced as President. Since that time the goal has been full disclosure and accurate accounting.

No wrongdoing was ever found by the previous president, although it might be said that there was waste due to sloppy accounting. But not being up front with the members made them suspicious, and not allowing any input as to what was done with their dues sort of pushed it over the edge.

I was voted in the next year as a board member, and the board elected me Vice-President, Secretary, & Treasurer. I helped to streamline the accounting, make all corporate information available to the members, prepare newsletters, etc., to keep the members up to date on all expenditures.

Since making all of this information available, interest in the day-to-day running of the corporation has dropped considerably. At out last members meeting, we were scrambling to get enough proxies to even hold a meeting!

I guess my point is that if you have a fiduciary responsibility to a group, you're obligated to provide timely and accurate information when asked (and even when not asked). I try to put the information out before anyone even has a chance to ask. I may not be able to respond to one of my shareholders today, but they know that'll I'll get back to them as soon as I can. I don't hold anything back (short of divulging individual financial information). Our board meetings are open for any member to observe, and may participate in an open discussion after official business is concluded.

Running things in this manner goes a long way to stopping any grumbling before it even starts. Even though someone may not attend our board meetings or inquire about the finances, it's enough for their peace of mind to know that it's always available.

Again, this is not a slam against any of the folks who run PRA. I know they have regular jobs, and have lives other than just the PRA.

I don't know that I have any answers to these issues, I just thought I would share my experiences with a similar situation, and what has been working for me.


P.S. I had also written something about the PRA magazine, but I may start another thread on that.

[Timchick]

You've got my vote Mike!

[Dean_Dolph]

Well, Ken, this is a case of if we keep on doing what we have been doing that we are going to keep on getting what we have been getting.

You have just done it again. Do you think that hashing it out here is going to result in a resolution here? The resolutions are going happen in a BOD meeting like it or not.

This is no different than any other organization (or government) that elects a body of people to make decisions for that org. And up to a few years back the general membership didn't have a means to change that body.

They do now; so if enough people care (only 10% of the membership vote) and don't like how the PRA is being managed then they can run themselves or campaign for someone that they feel will do things differently and to their liking.

I thought is was refreshing when Tim Blackwell announced, what was it, 2 years ago, that he wanted to be on the BOD and was running for election. And he proved that presense on the Forum can help get a person elected. Up to then it seemed everyone was either hesitant or didn't want to admit that they thought they could do things better.

Tim now announces that he would like to see the by-laws changed so that a BOD member would not have to be on the board 3 years before he could be an officer. I'm not convinced that would be a good change but at the same time I admire his confidence in doing the job if he wants to be an officer. A tough job at that. Then again making that change would present an opportunity for someone exceptional that is newly elected to the BOD to assume a leadership position.

You too can make a difference in the organization since you see problems and have concerns. Running for the board and getting yourself elected or lobbying the present BOD would present you with a chance to implement your solutions. You do have some, don't you?

As far as the BOD printing resolutions to issues in the mag I agree that would be the best. However, the mag isn't timely and sometimes issues need to be dealt with asap. That is why I've suggested that a BOD/Forum liaison role be created on the BOD. That liaison would be the info conduit between the BOD and the Forum.

It would be better, in my mind, if a forum type section on the PRA web site in the members section only were created for this purpose. Yeah, I know there isn't a members only section yet but they keep promising! That way these little discussions that seem to divide us could be handled within family without involving those who aren't members. And it wouldn't make this Forum look like a organ of the PRA which is what people thought about Norm's conference.

[GyroRon]

GyroMike for PRA BOD in 06!

[KenSandyEggo]

"You have just done it again. Do you think that hashing it out here is going to result in a resolution here?"

Dean, you just posted 9 meaty paragraphs of your thoughts regarding PRA concerns, problems and suggestions. Should those that disagree with some of your thoughts quit posting? Who will decide who can post and who will not... and what they get to post? Who decides which comments will help the PRA and which might harm the PRA?

The discussions aren't what's dividing us, it's the topics of the discussion that are dividing us. How can anyone believe that sweeping problems and righteous concerns under the rug is going to solve them or make them go away? Unaddressed problems have a way of growing and growing like a carbuncle, until someone finally has to lance it or it destroys itself. Should we wait until the PRA self-destructs? It's well on its way according to some that seem knowledgeable about the subject and the PRA's finances. How can anyone expect people to help when we don't know how much help is needed, how much cash we have on hand, how much is flowing in and where it's flowing out to?

3,000 members is $135,000 per year in dues coming in. Take 12 away for the airport payments and we have 123K left. How much do Pam and Rick get? I'm assuming they're both part-time positions maybe costing the 23K? That leaves 100K for the magazine. I don't know, I'm asking...does it cost 100K a year to get the magazine out to 3,000 members for the number of issues we're down to now? I'm told that there is nice income from hangar rentals and leasing out airport acreage for farming. What's the big deal of letting us know how much? Does any board member know? This is information that all of us should know and without even having to ask for it.

Hitler thrived because of the mentality that some here are exhibiting. He made formidable fighters out of people that didn't question their leaders, blindly followed, trusted everything that was told to them, didn't question their morals and even justified horrendous mass murder as "just following orders." Seems that some of you would be happy if that was the mentality of everyone in the PRA.

[GyroRon]

Don't get too mad at ole Ken. He hasn't flown in a LONG time and may just have some illness from lack of flying. Maybe he is allergic to dust and all that dust on his gyro has made him sick somehow...? ;)

Ken, them bags of leaves I hauled out to the street at your house was heavy!!! I put out fertilizer while I was there too.

[Rotornut]

Mike, Great post! Talk with you soon. MJ :)

[Heron]

Rando . . .freeze! Don't go anywhere just yet!
You just took Ken's commnet out of proportion . . .are you aware of rules of debate? You don't get off untill you decided the other party is right of vice versa.
For the good of all . . .
The things been discussed are just a little part of the whole and some people think they are wrong, some don't, it does not take away from whatever PRA has done in the past that is good. It is just to say that some stuff in the present are not so good.
Dean my Sensei . . .don't you agree this is a wonderfull place for this kind of discussions and when we do have an agreement we should go to the PRA BOD and present some complete project for appreciation?
Leave them alone to do their job untill we have all the aspects of our plot covered and the means to finance it.
Do you want to come here and try our new club to join the PRA? Or you think this is my job too?
WE have 35 people involved in different levels, raised 40 G's to create a training center, hired instructors and need a permanent base do keep our machine. WE do have 4 airports to train from.
Should we go PRA or ASC? Should I tell them about RAF's? Should we propose our Sister Association Sunstate to work together?
How would you address this newcomers to become members of a major Association, what are they going to gain?
thanks
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

"You have just done it again. Do you think that hashing it out here is going to result in a resolution here?" Why not answer the question?
…….. Should those that disagree with some of your thoughts quit posting? Who will decide who can post and who will not... and what they get to post? Who decides which comments will help the PRA and which might harm the PRA? If you believe that I’m suggesting that no one be allowed to disagree with my comments or thoughts then you are taking what I said out of context. It is quite a stretch to take the suggestion that a place on the PRA web site be created for these types of discussions and saying that no one be allowed to comment here. In the first place no one would want to place Todd and Mike in the position of playing Forum cop anymore than they have to now.

The discussions aren't what's dividing us, it's the topics of the discussion that are dividing us. How can anyone believe that sweeping problems and righteous concerns under the rug is going to solve them or make them go away? Where has anyone suggested that the problems be swept under the rug? And I don’t believe it is the topics that are dividing us but instead it is the manner of discussion. Playing devil’s advocate is fine and I do a pretty good job of it myself. But like a I heard a psychotherapist tell some one once, bringing up a issue is fine, bringing it up the second time is a friendly reminder but bringing it up a third time and it is nagging. What you, and others, have turned into is the Forum equivalent of a nag. Unaddressed problems have a way of growing and growing like a carbuncle, until someone finally has to lance it or it destroys itself. Should we wait until the PRA self-destructs? Well, I, for one, certainly would not suggest that. What I am suggesting is that a different approach be taken since it is obvious that the one you guys are taking isn’t working for you or the rest of us. If you guys would get active within the organization via email and/or telcons with like minded people and the BOD then there might be some resolution. But, remember the resolution is not going to happen here! It's well on its way according to some that seem knowledgeable about the subject and the PRA's finances. Care to share who the ‘knowledgeable some’ is via a pm? I don’t like to see names mentioned here. I have probably used an equivalent of ‘some’ myself but try to avoid it since I’m always suspicious of unnamed info sources. I usually throw in a disclaimer if I can’t avoid saying that a ‘source’ said…. How can anyone expect people to help when we don't know how much help is needed, how much cash we have on hand, how much is flowing in and where it's flowing out to? Well, I guess I’m being naïve by saying that I expect the members to care enough about their organization to help when and where they can and it shouldn’t have anything to do with the finances. The help should start at the local level and proceed from there. Anything that strengthens the local presence helps the international organization. I say local presence instead of chapters because there is nothing to stop an individual who doesn’t have a local chapter from doing his/her part.

And did you understand that there is a yearly financial statement? Yeah, I think it should be more visible and now that we have both said it here do you think that is going to make it happen?
………How much do Pam and Rick get? I'm assuming they're both part-time positions maybe costing the 23K? It is my understanding that Pam’s job is full time and if Rick is able to put out the mag is his spare time then he is a magician. Until you hear him explain what goes into producing the mag then you have no comprehension of the extent of the work load.
Hitler thrived because of the mentality that some here are exhibiting. He made formidable fighters out of people that didn't question their leaders, blindly followed, trusted everything that was told to them, didn't question their morals and even justified horrendous mass murder as "just following orders." Seems that some of you would be happy if that was the mentality of everyone in the PRA. This analogy doesn’t warrant a response.

[Dean_Dolph]

…..Dean my Sensei . . .don't you agree this is a wonderfull place for this kind of discussions and when we do have an agreement we should go to the PRA BOD and present some complete project for appreciation?
Leave them alone to do their job untill we have all the aspects of our plot covered and the means to finance it. Heron, did you read what I said about having a place on the PRA web site for these types of discussions? No I don’t agree that this is a ‘wonderfull place for this type of discussion but it is the only place we have at the moment. What I’m driving at is what you have alluded to, like minded people working together outside this Forum to reach a consensus on a topic and present it to the BOD. But what everyone needs to understand is that the consensus the BOD reaches might not be in their favor and accept that. Sometimes we just don’t get what we want; that is life.
Do you want to come here and try our new club to join the PRA? Or you think this is my job too?...........
……..How would you address this newcomers to become members of a major Association, what are they going to gain?
thanks
HeronHeron, I would suggest that you do what you feel is best for your group. It sounds like you have all that you need except the political power, such as it is, of an international organization and the 5290 exemption. I would not attempt to sell you guys on joining the PRA even though I still believe it would be the best thing for you. Take members of your group to Bensen Days and Mentone, especially Mentone, and let them help you make the decision.

[KenSandyEggo]

I was going to add a disclaimer that it didn't mean I was comparing anyone to Hitler, but I thought, nah, no one can be that dumb. But then I saw this: "Unbelievable, Ken is now comparing the PRA and it's officers to Hitler!!??"

[Heron]

It will be the Club that will have the last word, I will present them with all info I have on gyros and both associations, but I think ASC will look much better today.
I will ask (already have) Tim B to come and talk to them, maybe having a BOD person here helps the PRA cause.
Now I ask . . .would that be cause enough to the Prez do show up for a chat?
Here in the Forum, on our chat or anywere (paltalk, skype etc)
Maybe 25 new members is a little more leverage . . .
Heron

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

" Ken, the DUMB one is the one that first said it. "

Ken has been one of the most helpful people in the gyro group and does not deserve to be called dumb.

[KenSandyEggo]

Lordy me. I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same stuff over and over. A few get it and a lot don't at all. They just want to be ignorant sheep, swallowing whatever is thrown at them, having no concern whether their money is being wasted or not, figuring out how to get more money to send in when there isn't a financial statement any better than you'd find from a hot dog cart. Willing to accept total stone-walling from those that have the info and refuse to publish or share it.

Dean, while sticking pins into a Kenny J. doll, mumbled: "Where has anyone suggested that the problems be swept under the rug?" Dean, no suggestion is needed. That's what has been happening for years and years.

My kid patient that I take care of was just admitted to the hospital, so my shift has been cancelled for Saturday. There are more important things than attempting to convince members that in effect they are getting screwed when there is no accounting for income of funds nor expenditure of funds, even if it's just information they're entitled to know. I better not use a Hitler analogy again, because the comprehension level for some is sub-par. How about ostriches and sheep?

[Pam Bundy]

Dean, while sticking pins into a Kenny J. doll, mumbled: "Where has anyone suggested that the problems be swept under the rug?" Dean, no suggestion is needed. That's what has been happening for years and years.
Ken,
what is your proof to back up your statement?

Curiously,
Pam Bundy

[KenSandyEggo]

Pam, how long before the membership found out about "PRA Mentone?" Where are the financial statements for the members? How much money comes in and from where, where does it go and how much? Why does getting that information that every other organization freely publishes have to be like pulling teeth? All requests for this info are swept under the rug unanswered until they hopefully go away it seems. People had tons of questions about the ridiculous financial statement that was posted here a couple years ago. No answers as to those outrageous "bank fees,"
"office expenses" and the like.

Why is it impossible to find out how much cash the PRA has on hand? Someone posts that we're broke and need to get more members, but nowhere does it say "how broke." This stuff should not be secrets that we have to complain about and dig for. In fact your salary and Rick's should be public knowledge to all the members. I've never seen it. All the financial information should be readily available to all members. I've asked several times about how much income comes in from the airport, like from hangar rental and land leasing and where is it accounted for. Are those such tough questions that the board members who post here can't find out and let us know?

A lot of people want to know what's going on with their money before sending more in or spending their time recruiting new members. What's so outrageous about knowing the financial status of our organization? A lot of us base our dues contributions on how well our money is being spent. I sent Todd 20 times more than the smaller average contribution to the Forum last time. Does this give me a bragging right? No, I freely gave it because I feel it's worth it and I see the results. Those that contribute labor or money to the PRA are not having their arms twisted to do so. To sprout up and brag about how much more they do for the organization to justify the total lack of meaningful communication is stone-walling in my opinion. It's like "Don't question me about where your money goes because I do more than you."

Is the money given coming from their day-job paychecks, or is it just some of the money generated by land and hangar rents? I'm not accusing anyone of any chicanery, but there should be no need to have to guess about it when simple steps could be taken to keep the membership informed.

I've said all I can say about this topic. If no one else gives a crap about it, so be it. I'll base whether I renew my membership on how well I think my money's being spent and communication with the membership about it. A blind plea for "more support" doesn't do it for me unless I can be convinced that the existing income is being used in the best way possible. So far, there's nothing to base a decision on as far as renewing, and I know that a lot of people that have communicated with me privately are feeling the same way. So unless some of these questions are honestly answered, the PRA can get ready for another big drop in membership when renewal time comes.

[PRA]

Pam, how long before the membership found out about "PRA Mentone?"
Ken,
I believe PRA Mentone Inc was introduced to the members some time in 1995. I'll check into which exact issue that was published in and get back to you.

People had tons of questions about the ridiculous financial statement that was posted here a couple years ago. No answers as to those outrageous "bank fees,"
"office expenses" and the like.
Ken,
the only person that I was aware of that had questions about what you call, "ridiculous" financial statements, was you. And if you think that this forum is the place to answer members questions such as these, I disagree with you. If members have questions, they should submit them to the P.R.A. Office for publishing in the magazine for all the members to see and there is where the answers should be given. Do you agree or disagree?

I have been working the P.R.A. Office now for 9 1/2 years and I have never once heard from you either in writing or by phone call, with any of your questions about the Popular Rotorcraft Association or PRA Mentone, Inc. You know, that communication thing goes both ways. What do you think?

[KenSandyEggo]

Pam, didn't you get P.O.ed about some of these matters a little while back and posted your anger about it right here because you were kept out of the loop? As I recall, you were very disgusted. It was either about PRA Mentone or the museum, if I recall. You even threatened to quit if my memory serves me correctly. So why is any of this a surprise to you?

The FACT that PRA Mentone was a separate entity and "owned" the airport with a separate board only came out recently, when the last brouhaha started. All the facts were not disclosed in '95.

I beg to differ. The "bank fees" and "office expenses" were questioned by several people other than me. In fact, I didn't introduce the questions. You suggest communicating with the PRA office. From what I've read by members who attempted to, it was mainly an exercise in futility. E-mail happens to be the main means of communications these days in the world and the PRA should be right on top of it. When people complain about their e-mails going unanswered for months at a time, where's the communication with the office? People have complained about not getting their magazines for months and months. They finally posted their gripes here in frustration, hoping to get someone to listen.

This Forum is merely a means of communication, no different than snail-mail, e-mails, letters or phone calls. Why should it be eliminated as a means of communication, because it's out in the fresh air? It seems to work better than any of the others eventually.

[Heron]

Questions posted here and fall on PRA's ears and eyes goes where?
Answers should be posted on the official vehicle the PRA web site and magazine.
I am not a member because my dues are not in yet, so I come here and ask questions, present solutions and just plain bitch about. What will change if I send my dues today?
Will a list with my requests over the years be placed on the site for analysis and considerations?
We can fix this with a few strokes of a pen . . .and then move on with the program . . . which is?
I feel that the debate should be kept on a general basis and not go personal.
We need more money, how much? How are we going to rack it up?
I know for a fact that, the new machines presented in the last two years are creating enormous interest on the general public as well as in the already involved in other forms of aviation.
thanks
Heron

[Timchick]

Ken, Maybe you could get some of your questions answered if you'd just pick up the phone and call PRA instead of relying on rumors.

[KenSandyEggo]

Tim, that's an old trick to put someone requesting legitimate info on the defensive with "why don't you do this or that." I shouldn't have to phone anyone to find out PRA's financial status. What I'm asking for are pure facts that seem to have been withheld from us. How much cash we have on hand, income and expenditures should be published in a manner that no one has any questions about it. Does anyone here know how much cash the PRA has? Does anyone know our monthly income from all sources? Does anyone know our monthly expenditures? If anyone really knows and can show the documentation, please post it and shut me up. Pam, in your position, you surely must know how much cash we have on hand. I notice you didn't address that question. Is it a secret?

Poll: Does anyone here see any need for me to explain my concerns on this topic any further? I sure had to repeat them enough. I'm tired of asking for the same old things that no member of the PRA should ever have to ask for.


Yes, tell us more_____


No, shut up already_____, that way everything will fade away again and everyone can once again start wondering why the PRA's membership is dropping like dead flies off of a greasy spoon's wall in Tempe, Arizona in August.

[GyroRon]

Ken, I am just as concerned about the PRA as the next guy. I would like to see more about the moneys, but not enough to make a big deal out of it, or else I would just call the PRA treasurer and ask him directly.

[Heron]

The Member is the most important cell of PRA, if one is in doubt, them someone should get on the phone and ease his or hers concern, it is like you guys are saying shut up, you are not important!
The web site is there to show all info necessary.
But maybe some are secret info and cant be made public, anyway, get on the phone and call Ken J.
What is the number Ken?
Burrinhos!
Heron

[KenSandyEggo]

I forgot. Anyone who says "Yes" will have the evil-eye curse put on them by my 84 year-old mother-in-law from Greece.

[LGoodhind]

>I forgot. Anyone who says "Yes"...

There is no need for you to continue to explain why any member of an organization has the right to make requests under section VI.D.2 of it's own bylaws through any channel given the complete lack of a formal process.

Shut up already Ken ... pissing in the wind shows a lack of understanding of micrometeorology.

[KenSandyEggo]

I was wondering why my pants cuffs and shoes are always wet and stinky, Larry.

[Rando]

No, shut up already_____O.K. I just wanted to be the first to reply. Actually, you brought up some good questions but I would prefer someone nicer, like Dean Dolph, to track down the answers.

[Rotornut]

Ron said/Ken, I am just as concerned about the PRA as the next guy. I would like to see more about the moneys, but not enough to make a big deal out of it, or else I would just call the PRA treasurer and ask him directly.
__________________
Good post. MJ :)

[Gary_in_Orygun]

Why do all of us with the same question need to call the PRA Treasurer? A request from multiple members has been put on the table. Board members have seen the request here on the forum. Next step in my mind is to honor the member request and get the latest financial information in the next magazine. Get 'er done!

[Heron]

There!
Heron

[GyroRon]

Why do all of us with the same question need to call the PRA Treasurer? A request from multiple members has been put on the table. Board members have seen the request here on the forum. Next step in my mind is to honor the member request and get the latest financial information in the next magazine. Get 'er done!


I would like it more so than anyone else here, to see Gary and Glenn and the rest of the board on this forum and communicating with us on a daily basis.

But it hasn't happened, and won't happen with the current board and current officers. PERIOD, END OF STORY.

If you or I don't like that then we need to get off our asses and vote in a new board this year. Who wants to run for office this year???

Does this make any sence???? I mean we just aren't going to get the board on here to answer a bunch of questions.

Saying that, they are likely not going to reply to the question about 5 people here have asked and that is for a full disclosure on the finances of PRA and PRA mentone. Heck I would bet money on that they will not respond to this question, not just cause we posted it here....

BUT.... if we call and ask, they HAVE to tell us the numbers. And I bet they would.

You have to bring the question to them, is that clear?

Now the question is how much more bitching and moaning are we going to do here on the forum before someone is motivated enough to really do something about it and pick up the phone and make a phone call?

Here is the treasurer.... Robert Rymer, 423-479-8460 robert.rymer@jonesprinting.com

And for anyone who wants to talk to the president, here is his contact info... Gary Goldsberry 317-632-7008 gsgold@ccrtc.com


Who is going to make the call?

[Heron]

Ken J. of course!
Heron

[TomCarlisle]

I just don't understand any of this. I send the same amount to Experimental Helicopters and get a magazine. I don't care if they buy a new house with my money as long as I get a magazine. I sent money to the PRA to be a member and get a magazine. I don't care if Gary gets filthy rich on this (although I know it cost him a lot more to do this job than he gets out of it). Once I send my dues, I am a member and I get a magazine. Its not my money any more. I have a lot more to worry about than what happens after I send in the dues. I also send dues to Sunstate club and I am 2000 miles from them and I don't get to attend many of their functions, but I like the club and support it. If you want to be a member, pay your dues and SHUT up. If you don't want to be a member or just want to bitch, don't send any money. We will all be better off.

[Luc De Keyser]

When I was an exchange student attending the Santa Ynez Valley Union High School, more than thirty years ago, the most eye opening experience was attending the meetings of the local 4H. Kids ranging in age from 14 to 18 years old were conducting orderly discussions according to, what I learned, was the parliamentary procedure. They did not have internet then, but I am confident the medium of communication is not essential to support the basic principles that this procedure supports. As I read over this site http://www.csuchico.edu/sac/parliament.html explaining the parliamentary procedure at a glance, I must conclude that, in the spirit of the procedure if not in the letter of the rules, the PRA officers, despite their best intentions and demeanor, bear responsibility for the lack of communication concerning a number of issues that have been debated in this thread. Let me quote some of the most relevant rules and customs:
All members have equal rights, privileges, and obligations; rules must be administered impartially.
The minority has rights which must be protected.
Full and free discussion of all motions, reports, and other items of business is a right of all members.
In doing business the simplest and most direct procedure should be used.
Only one question can be considered at a time.
Members must not attack or question the motives of other members. Customarily, all remarks are addressed to the presiding officer.


Luc

[Harry_S.]

'ATTA BOY' TOM.


Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

Baaaaaaaaa.:D

[KenSandyEggo]

Tom, don't you care that there might not be enough money to continue your magazines? You've already been cut back on quality and quantity. If the organization is going broke for some reason, I don't understand why you wouldn't care, seeing as it affects you getting your magazine, if for nothing else.

[Rando]

If you want to be a member, pay your dues and SHUT up. If you don't want to be a member or just want to bitch, don't send any money. We will all be better off.YES! Finally somone I agree with. Tom, run for PRA President. You have my vote!

[Heron]

You guys must be talking about the Deaf and Mute Association, right?
And Tom . . .if you are happy what are you doing feeding this malicious and out of order thread?
I am not happy and it is not for the reasons Ken is not happy, you can shove the money as far as I care but I need new programs to release all this desire for creation I have within my soul . . .
I like the airport and don't care if they try to steal it, I can kick their collective but either in court or personally if that happens and I don't think it will.
Management though it is frail to say the least, maybe the focus of the association is not about the general public and future pilot/owners/members but the actual flying buddies and the status quo!
I want change and I will get change . . .or die trying! :)
Heron
and you sir are welcome with your ideas.

[Timchick]

Heron, Have you actually joined the PRA?

[Heron]

It is going out today!
I will call Pam and see if it can be done over the phone . . .
NOw what???
Heron :)

[donshoebridge]

Great post Tom. But this has been my feeling for the past 2 years. See my quote below posted 24 May 2004.

I just don't understand any of this. I send the same amount to Experimental Helicopters and get a magazine. I don't care if they buy a new house with my money as long as I get a magazine. I sent money to the PRA to be a member and get a magazine. I don't care if Gary gets filthy rich on this (although I know it cost him a lot more to do this job than he gets out of it). Once I send my dues, I am a member and I get a magazine. Its not my money any more. I have a lot more to worry about than what happens after I send in the dues. I also send dues to Sunstate club and I am 2000 miles from them and I don't get to attend many of their functions, but I like the club and support it. If you want to be a member, pay your dues and SHUT up. If you don't want to be a member or just want to bitch, don't send any money. We will all be better off.

Is this BS really necessary!?!? I could care less if the PRA is a great organization or a political cesspool! I pay my money, I get a magazine, that's it! And if that's all I get out if it fine. There are several sides to Maxie's and the PRA story, and frankly, the political finger pointing isn't worth listening to - it never has been and never will be. Bottom-line is, if you don't like the PRA, LEAVE! If the group or an individual can't play well with others, separate them.

Notice to all... If you don't like the way the PRA is being run, go start your own damn rotary wing organization, hold you own damn meetings, vote in your own damn board members, and bitch to someone else, and if the magazine is worth a damn, I'll join.

Nuff said!

Same crap, different day, same attitude.

Oh, just for reference (as if anyone is really interested), I'm running for a board position this year.

Later all.

[Heron]

Hey hey hey . . . .hey hey . . .hey hey . . .
Mr ShowBridge . . .are you saying that I should withdraw my renewal after all this years of trying to raise the issue of "lets go get more guys"?
By the way Tim, Tom and Jim . . .it is done and big thanks to you for trying!
Now lets get some 1.000 members more, what do you say?
. . .and Mr. Bridge . . .run for office please, I will vote for you and make a little voodoo doll just like you to stick my needles in . . . :D
I will be a bitch on your back!
Heron

[Aussie_Paul]

Heron said, "Proud owner of the best gyro trainer available!"

How do you know it is the best Heron? Have you flown every gyro trainer being used for such purposes, or are you just so excited and would love it to be the best? I do love your enthusiasm though, a bit like the guy sitting at my computor!!!!;)

Aussie Paul.:)

[Heron]

Well Paul . . .
It has very nice features, flies very good, takes two big guys up with no effort, good speed, maneuverable.
Folds to fit in a garage and can be transformed in a fly drive vehicle with no big deal of work.
But mostly it is my baby . . .like an uncle, right?
I could say one of the best to be politically correct but, then it will not be me right? :D gotta make waves . . .
thanks
Heron

[Aussie_Paul]

Good for you Heron. :D Just keeping my stirring and trouble making sharp!!!;)

Gotta go and make more Firebird bits. Cheers.

Aussie Paul.:)

[donshoebridge]

Hey hey hey . . . .hey hey . . .hey hey . . .
Mr ShowBridge . . .are you saying that I should withdraw my renewal after all this years of trying to raise the issue of "lets go get more guys"?
By the way Tim, Tom and Jim . . .it is done and big thanks to you for trying!
Now lets get some 1.000 members more, what do you say?
. . .and Mr. Bridge . . .run for office please, I will vote for you and make a little voodoo doll just like you to stick my needles in . . . :D
I will be a bitch on your back!
Heron

Heron,

The point of the post was that if you don't like the PRA, and you're not willing to lift a finger to change it, then leave. And if that's still not good enough, go start your own rotary wing organization and show the rest of the world how it should be done.

I'd LOVE the see the PRA become something more than a magazine and a training exemption. 1) Though I doubt it'll happen, I'd also like to see the PRA offer reduced-rate insurance to its members. 2) I'd also like to see a youth program like that of Young Eagles, call it Young Harriers or something. 3) I'd like to see paved taxiways at Mentone (oops! I said a bad word - Mentone). Or even a paved ramp. 4) I'd like to see the hangars at Mentone better equip for the weather such as doors so more people would buy hangar space. 5) I'd like to see the PRA sponsor and organize cross-country fun flights in various parts of the world. The photos and stories gained would be great for the magazine and membership numbers.

The main reason for running for the BOD is to flip-off the nay sayers and build a great organization. I'm tired of seeing (hearing) all of the negative crap being thrown around about the PRA. If you don't like it, run for the board and fix it from within. Because if you're not a member of the PRA, the PRA doesn't have to answer to any of your crying fits. And even if you're one of a handful of people (and I mean handful 5-10 members) that seem to be the only noise makers around, try to understand that you will be over looked because YOU DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF THE PRA MEMBERSHIP!

The majority of the decent, upstanding members of the PRA are too nice to say anything negative toward the anti-PRA noise makers. But since I don't fit the "decent" or "upstanding" mold very well, I'll say whatever the hell I want, to whomever I want, and if they take offense to that, then there's the door. I'm not going to take the PRA bashing sitting on my ass any longer. Against the attitudes of the nay sayers, I am running for board, and when elected, I'm going to work from within the PRA.

Attempting to reshape the PRA from the outside with a hammer, like many people have tried to do for the past 2-3 years, is not how you affect change. This has about the same logic as yelling at the TV in an attempt to keep some bimbo from opening a closet door in a horror movie.

Ok, enough ranting.

[GyroRon]

Don, you had my vote up till the part of dumping more money into airport improvements. I am all for the airport and glad we have it, but at this point I do not want to see more money invested in improvements when that money could be used for far greater things.

Not a attack on you by any means, But I wonder if you have ever flown much or at all? I say this because I do fly, and I have been to countless airports that had no taxiway and using the radio and my eyes and common sence I was able to operate safely and without issue. In my eyes anyone who has flown much is bound to have done the same as me, and anyone who has experienced what I have experienced would most likely agree that a taxiway is not needed when there is not a overflow of money to use to pay for it.

If under your leadership the PRA grows and the cash flown is such that the taxiway would not be a major financial problem, then I would back the improvement and say go for it.

By the way, have you or anyone else finished a Hornet yet? Has one flown yet?

[GyroRon]

As for Heron, he is a good guy and his intentions are in the right place. But his posts and writing style are too vague and rarely ever get to the point he is trying to make. I believe if what he posted was true, he just FINALLY joined the PRA.

I have to be honest though, I rarely ever read his posts. When he changes his writing style to a more direct and to the point style then I would read them. And I don't want to sound like I am picking on Heron because I don't read several peoples posts here.... If the post is about backpack gyros, flying cars, and other crap that will never fly, then I don't waste my time reading it. And same goes for all the politics junk posted here. I also don't read posts that are huge long single paragraphs, and I don't read super long posts where the writer uses 3 or 4 times more words than needed to get to his point.

[Heron]

Good thing this Forum has ignore capabilities and you can filter what you want to read in few other ways.
Now Don presented very clear what he has in mind for the PRA and what he feels about people like me (and other noise makers)
I will say that I have created another gyro association and it is going to grow with members help. But I think this assn. should join another one and take advantage of the umbrella it provides, maybe the PRA is the one, this is open do discussion to the TCR.
I am also member of other two, TRA and Sunstate (no dues paid) and try what I can to help them, I bought www.bensendays.com to create a page as a gift to Sunstate and it could be the best site around.
I have spent more than 18 G's on this quest because I know this project is good and will benefit many people, but not everyone knows my efforts and pains.
Yesterday I rejoined PRA without ever leaving it and it was a good day for me, not because I can afford the 40 bucks, but because all other matters have been resolved and now I can turn my libido back on ando go have sex after 3 years . . .do you want do discuss commintment with me Don?
Tell you what . . .just to please you .. .find only two more that will endorse your post and I am out of here!
Right here and right now! 3 people say I should leave this group (forum and pra) alone and I will turn the switch.
My ticket is going to be scheduled for the 10th of April and tomorrow a letter will going to Immigration canceling my application for permanent residency, after 17 years of waiting.
Do you know anyone this straight? I could just leave and wait till they finally conceed me a Green Card, but what use do I have for one? I do not intend on living here anymore, just come to visit if they grant me a VISA, which I had since first time back in the 80's and the last expired january 26th.
Sorry you could not see the point in my quest, maybe other factors abscured your views but the results are showing up little by little and the effort is greater because very little help is offered.
thank you for reading my posts and for been so dedicated to the gyroplane cause, I will love you for that.
Heron

[Gary_in_Orygun]

Don, I do appreciate you saying your piece here. One of the reasons why I had trouble voting for PRA people before is because I didn't know how they thought.

I would not vote for a board member who thought limited PRA resources should be going into an airport that few members see or use. (If it became a big return on investment, that would be a different story.)

I would not vote for someone that did not listen to all members and evaluate what it was they were saying or asking, even if it does seem like whining.

I would like to hear your viewpoint on whether the PRA organization should report to its members the organization's financial status on a yearly basis.

[barnstorm2]

Great post Tom!

[donshoebridge]

Don, you had my vote up till the part of dumping more money into airport improvements. I am all for the airport and glad we have it, but at this point I do not want to see more money invested in improvements when that money could be used for far greater things.

Not a attack on you by any means, But I wonder if you have ever flown much or at all? I say this because I do fly, and I have been to countless airports that had no taxiway and using the radio and my eyes and common sence I was able to operate safely and without issue. In my eyes anyone who has flown much is bound to have done the same as me, and anyone who has experienced what I have experienced would most likely agree that a taxiway is not needed when there is not a overflow of money to use to pay for it.

If under your leadership the PRA grows and the cash flown is such that the taxiway would not be a major financial problem, then I would back the improvement and say go for it.

By the way, have you or anyone else finished a Hornet yet? Has one flown yet?

Ron,

The ideas I posted are NOT items that I'm pushing to have done in 3-5 years. I know it'll never happen in that time frame. I'm just trying to keep a positive attitude about the PRA and come up with ideas that I think would be good for the PRA as a whole.

The idea of airport improvements doesn’t have anything to do with radios, eyes, or common sense flying practices. My taxiway idea/issue is because of congestion. When there are aircraft in the pattern wanting to land, aircraft on the ground wanting to take off, AND there’s aircraft using the active runway to back-taxi, it’s an issue of not having enough space. The current grass taxiway is so rough, I don’t even like to drive my truck on it.

As for the hangars being closed off, I have yet to see a convention that didn’t have at least one day of bad weather. At the 2004 convention, Rusty Nance’s pitot tube harpooned another gyro because of the high winds blowing the gyro’s around in the hangar. Besides, hangar doors would attract more people to base there aircraft there.

But at this point, all of the improvements in the world don’t mean Jack because of the PRA’s current financial situation, so it doesn’t matter.

[KenSandyEggo]

"But at this point, all of the improvements in the world don’t mean Jack because of the PRA’s current financial situation, so it doesn’t matter."

If you know that, what is its financial situation? Apparently you don't care, because you don't want to hear from "the whiners," who do care.

"My taxiway idea/issue is because of congestion. When there are aircraft in the pattern wanting to land, aircraft on the ground wanting to take off, AND there’s aircraft using the active runway to back-taxi, it’s an issue of not having enough space."

When is this? We just heard from Pam that hardly anyone ever uses the airport. Are we talking all this expenditure for just a couple days per year?

Gary just asked you some very important questions that would help everyone evaluate your candidacy which you announced here on the Forum. Are you going to answer his concerns?

[donshoebridge]

Don, I do appreciate you saying your piece here. One of the reasons why I had trouble voting for PRA people before is because I didn't know how they thought.

I would not vote for a board member who thought limited PRA resources should be going into an airport that few members see or use. (If it became a big return on investment, that would be a different story.)

I would not vote for someone that did not listen to all members and evaluate what it was they were saying or asking, even if it does seem like whining.

I would like to hear your viewpoint on whether the PRA organization should report to its members the organization's financial status on a yearly basis.

Gary,

Let me try to clarify, and this is probably going to sound bad, but hey, it’s what I think, and you wanted to know. Currently, the PRA has around 2000-3000 members. If there are 2, 5 or 10 members somewhere throwing a fit because of issue “X”, and they are demanding something be done about it, in my book, a courtesy call would be appropriate, but to stop all other PRA activities because of a few people makes no sense at all. And that’s basically what has been happening over the past few years, with one small difference. The PRA never made that courtesy call early enough to defuse the situation before it blew up. So basically, I don’t like the idea of a handful of members holding the rest of the membership, and the organization hostage. There’s been too much time spent bashing each other over various things, and not enough work being done to change or fix anything. I want to look ahead and make things better, and not dwell on the past or make the same mistakes.

With the way the BOD is currently structured, the needs of the many and that of the organization will always outweigh the needs of the few. Now I mentioned some time ago that I think that chapter presidents should make up the PRA board. I’ve thought about that a little bit more and I don’t know if that would be a good idea or not. I’d still like to look into it. But the big benefit of such an idea would be that members would have a more direct route to the PRA and its actions. And if your chapter didn’t like its president, you could vote them out within a year, or start a new chapter and leave the old one behind. It would force the presidents to become involved with the PRA and would make them a better representative. Because right now, asking a board of only 5 members to represent 2000-3000 members isn’t going to happen real well. The board becomes over loaded and nothing hardly gets done.

As for a better financial disclosure, yes, I would like to see financial reports. I'd even take it a step farther and say that reports should be done every quarter. I’m sure Pam has everything in the PRA’s computers, so putting a standard report together shouldn’t be all the difficult. If necessary, even if I’m not elected, I’ll help her set it up so all she has to do is specify the start and end dates and press one button. Done! The reports could be posted on the PRA’s website, printed in the magazine, sent out by smoke signal, I don’t care. How that information gets distributed is another topic and problem in itself.

[donshoebridge]

If you know that, what is its financial situation? Apparently you don't care, because you don't want to hear from "the whiners," who do care.

I have a general understanding to the PRA's financial situation. I do not have the level of financial detail required to satisfy you. Go talk to Pam or a current member of the BOD.

When is this? We just heard from Pam that hardly anyone ever uses the airport. Are we talking all this expenditure for just a couple days per year?

During the Convention.

Gary just asked you some very important questions that would help everyone evaluate your candidacy which you announced here on the Forum. Are you going to answer his concerns?

Sorry, Ken, I'm just not as quick as you are. Relax… It’ll come.

[KenSandyEggo]

O.K. I asked Pam about a week ago and she hasn't answered yet. Maybe I'm off-base, but I'd think the office manager would have the checkbook and know what's in there, and that should not be any kind of secret from the members.

[Rotornut]

Tom Carlisle/Said

I also send dues to Sunstate club and I am 2000 miles from them and I don't get to attend many of their functions, but I like the club and support it. If you want to be a member, pay your dues and SHUT up. If you don't want to be a member or just want to bitch, don't send any money. We will all be better off.

Sunstate Loves Ya Tom and we Thank You for your Support by being a Member of a Large Gyro Chapter!

When your not here I miss Ya, but knowing I will see you again makes it all better. MJ :)

[Rotornut]

Don, You Crack me up, making my broken humorus bone to hurt!

UUUUMM PREZZ MJ IN BRIGHT COLORS LOL

Go for it Don. Glad to see you step up, again. (meaning helping pra)

Make my Vote when all step up.

[donshoebridge]

O.K. I asked Pam about a week ago and she hasn't answered yet. Maybe I'm off-base, but I'd think the office manager would have the checkbook and know what's in there, and that should not be any kind of secret from the members.

Sorry about your luck, Ken. But seeing how Pam doesn't work for me and I don't have access to the PRA check book, my suggestion would be to contact one of your PRA representitives, ie, board members. It doesn't do any good bitching to me about it. I'm not an elected member of the PRA.

[donshoebridge]

By the way, have you or anyone else finished a Hornet yet? Has one flown yet?

Sorry Ron,

Forgot to reply to this.

Brian Sherwood was doing some taxi testing earlier this week. And there's a guy in Australia that has built a variant of a Hornet and it has flown. I have a news report about it on my new webpage. You can read all of the details about it there.

http://www.gdt-systems.com Click on the 'News' button.

Thanks for the interest.

[Heron]

Ok
PRA broke and we still have an airport to borrow against the equity right?
And if the airport is ours why have the PRA pay for paving the runway? We are going to pay and the PRA will lead and coordinate the project, right?
Now . . .did anyone heard from possible candidates some kind of program to improve the management and ways to attrackt more members?
Because doing the obvious and improving relations with half a dozen malcontents is an easy task . . .not a platform to run for!
I can do better, increase de malcontents to a respectable number!! :D
Heron

[Rotornut]

omg, Just when you think you Heard it all!

OK I am holding my mouth shut with duck tape, and Richard is taping up my left hand. So very limited to post much.

Don, PRA will be needing lots to Step up to the Plate.
I have my hands full with Sunstate and BD Days.
Ernie is giving it a darn Good Shot, All I Hope is that he is Heard!
Ora Cook has always been there! And for Sunstate.
Miss Annie Works her butt off at BD Days all the great perks for being a Sunstate Member. We LOVE YA BOYETTE'S/COOK'S

See All Soon, MJ :)
Just as WE Hear You Heron. MJ :)

[Heron]

M.J.
Save you energy for BD!
Haven't seen nothing yet . . .
Heron

[Gary_in_Orygun]

Thanks Don, for your answers.

One thing that has come up here, and that is that only about 10 people are questioning the benefits of PRA owning an airport. I just recently learned about some of the airport issues here on the forum.

If the other 2000 to 3000 members were brought up-to-speed on some of these issues and then asked to comment on it, do you think the number of people questioning the financial wisdom of this direction with the airport would still be only 10 people?

I think if we start with some financial reporting and accountability in the magazine, this would be the first step in bringing the membership up-to-speed and hopefully providing some good feedback to our BOD.

[donshoebridge]

Don, PRA will be needing lots to Step up to the Plate.

Lot's of what?

[donshoebridge]

Thanks Don, for your answers.

One thing that has come up here, and that is that only about 10 people are questioning the benefits of PRA owning an airport. I just recently learned about some of the airport issues here on the forum.

If the other 2000 to 3000 members were brought up-to-speed on some of these issues and then asked to comment on it, do you think the number of people questioning the financial wisdom of this direction with the airport would still be only 10 people?

I think if we start with some financial reporting and accountability in the magazine, this would be the first step in bringing the membership up-to-speed and hopefully providing some good feedback to our BOD.

Gary,

From what I understand, about 1/2 the membership knows of the Rotary Forum and the majority of that half have been here. Law of averages... If there's only 10 members being verbal, I would expect about 30 more to do the same. 1-4 percent fits here as does most things in life.

As for membership numbers dropping, I wouldn't even want to guess how many of them left because of the PRA's actions or lack of. Or how many left because of "here say", rumors, and outright lies. At this point in the game, it doesn't much matter because the damage is done. As I see it, it's time to rebuild and move on.

I don't know who was on the board at the time of the airport purchase. But the fact that the membership voted the board in and empowered them to make decisions like this, I don't see where the membership would've had much recourse short of what has been happening already. But what I find interesting is that there were no complaints (that I'm aware of) until about 2-3 years ago or so. So why all of a sudden is there a big stink over this? It can't be because of the creation of this forum, because Norm had his system up for a long time and I never seen anything there. What am I missing here? In some people's eye's, I don't get it. Obviously, I don't. So without getting too wordy, or long in the tooth, why the stink over $35/year and the purchase of an airport?

Like Tom, I feel that when I send in my check, it's not my money anymore, it's the PRA's money. And I have to trust the people that are voted into office to do the right thing.

[Heron]

Lie = knowing the thruth and telling otherwise
I have not seen or detected outright lies here, maybe some people mal informed or misrepresented.
About the membership's opinion, we (The Forum) could try to round up more PRA members to join the debate and present solutions. Other thing is the quality of the minority complainers, could they be the ones to move PRA forward at greater speeds?
How to find out and get them to step up? My 50 some bucks for sure aren't goint to do it . . .
I see Ken J. as an asset to our group and to the PRA, I believe he is a member and a suporter so far, maybe a little conditional today.
Don S. could be a crowd pleaser and win the votes he needed to become the next Commander in Chief, lets see his platform, administration crew and future projects!
thanks
Heron

[Gary_in_Orygun]

Don,

I don't think it matters who said what when or how many people said it. I am a member. I have raised some questions and would like to hear the history and the reasoning behind the airport issues that have been brought to my attention. Are my questions valid? If so, I would like to see them addressed.

I don't want to be dismissed just because I'm only one of 10 people. And by my reasoning, if 10 other people were verbal about similar issues, then there are probably a lot more that haven't verbalized similar concerns.

Because I think the questions I have raised are of interest to more than just me, I have made it known (to those board members that read this forum) that I would like to see answers in the magazine, for all to see. It should be public. Any communication, including this forum should be enough to put it on some BOD's "Get 'er Done" list. I shouldn't be asked to also call someone.

The reason why these issues have become more of a concern to me recently is because the one thing I do "get" from PRA is a magazine, and the quantity of that one thing has decreased. AND, I have recently learned here on the forum that the PRA is coming up short of money. Why didn't I see that in the magazine?

Yes, I used the word "get" regarding the magazine.

I also realize there should be some give too by the members. Well, I give a lot (of time) to my local chapter. Even so, I did take someone's word to heart regarding making contributions to the magazine. (I submitted an article to Rick recently.) I have been preaching to our local club members to submit articles for our local newsletter, so I sympathize with Rick. But I also go out and search for things of interest for our newsletter...sometimes it comes from this forum.

That's all I have to say 'bout that.

[Heron]

Let me tell a little storie here:
I went to several international basketball clinics and as always I do, I go to the point I think is wrong and expose it.
IN my firs camp here in the U.S. the hell boke loose when I raised an issue and the group sided with me other thant the official rule interpreter. The issue was resolved right there because there was a To Guy that could take it further and he did. The Rule Interpreter don't have me in his high list for Christmas . . .
Back to International (FIBA) they always use to say . . ."the old guys don't want changes" refering to top brass in Europe . . .till . . .
One meeting down in Brazil we had all major players present and only one in Europe, I did my test and another 10 came up (top grade) so I was on the spot light again . . .at the rules meeting I brought up the issue that was hanging forever without solution . . .they came with the same B.S. . . .and I said: We are all here and can make a decision just calling the remaining member of the Rules Comitee to get his vote (I knew his vote) and the issue was passed.
I never made International referee, the guy that did not want that changed was in charge of Refs for another 5 years . . . .no regrets here!
so back to the PRA
We have the means of bringing an issue up, discuss it, analyze it, create funding for it and then comunicating it to the BOD for stamp of approval and authorization to start doing it!
Who is the Director that should get the project to run with the ball?
Who can coordinate action and propose changes to Top Brass?
Who is Top Brass and how do they operate?
I the President a man that will see the goods an sign them off?
Or is he a man that has to have final saying and can hold things back?
PRA is here and PRA is us (paid dues or not) and we have the power to move it to higher levels, should we?
thanks
Heron

[donshoebridge]

Don,

I don't think it matters who said what when or how many people said it. I am a member. I have raised some questions and would like to hear the history and the reasoning behind the airport issues that have been brought to my attention. Are my questions valid? If so, I would like to see them addressed.

I don't want to be dismissed just because I'm only one of 10 people. And by my reasoning, if 10 other people were verbal about similar issues, then there are probably a lot more that haven't verbalized similar concerns.

Because I think the questions I have raised are of interest to more than just me, I have made it known (to those board members that read this forum) that I would like to see answers in the magazine, for all to see. It should be public. Any communication, including this forum should be enough to put it on some BOD's "Get 'er Done" list. I shouldn't be asked to also call someone.

The reason why these issues have become more of a concern to me recently is because the one thing I do "get" from PRA is a magazine, and the quantity of that one thing has decreased. AND, I have recently learned here on the forum that the PRA is coming up short of money. Why didn't I see that in the magazine?

Yes, I used the word "get" regarding the magazine.

I also realize there should be some give too by the members. Well, I give a lot (of time) to my local chapter. Even so, I did take someone's word to heart regarding making contributions to the magazine. (I submitted an article to Rick recently.) I have been preaching to our local club members to submit articles for our local newsletter, so I sympathize with Rick. But I also go out and search for things of interest for our newsletter...sometimes it comes from this forum.

That's all I have to say 'bout that.

Gary,

These are all valid points of concern. But like I said before, with the current structure of the PRA board, I think it's a little unrealistic to expect 5 or 6 people to answer all of the questions fired at them by 2000-3000 members. But then again, if only 30-40 people are really asking the questions, then maybe it's not so difficult. Maybe a FAQ section in the members area of the PRA website would cover most of the big questions. But like I've heard Pam say, the decision regarding the purchase of the airport was (?) printed in Rotorcraft sometime in 1995. If this is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, then how many times does this information need to be rehashed? I'm not trying to antagonize you, but I'm just wondering when does it become overly redundant. Obviously, once was not enough to satisfy everyone, but is 15 times going to be enough?

Instead of constantly bringing up the same subject matter every time someone has their fuse lit, I'd rather see people look a little bit deeper for the answers first. Now before someone goes off and say's "that's what we've been trying to do", I understand that the information was not in a user-friendly location and it was in the tongue lawyers. So to remedy that, let's get a list of 15-20 of the most important questions together, find the answers and give them to the PRA webmaster for posting. Now the next series of questions; 1) What percentage of the membership would read it? 2) How many members would believe it? And 3) would it stop people from complaining? The last one is obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see this crap resolved so we can move forward. But again, how long are we going to talk about actions that the board made 10+ years ago?

[GyroRon]

Don, a full finacial disclosure would go a long way to helping ease everyones minds about the issues that keep popping up.

Me, I am of the mindset Tom C has, I sent in my money to get a magazine, and that is what I get.

[Gary_in_Orygun]

I was not a member in 1995, so I would like to find out how to access that article. (I would like the information on how to find it to be published so any member can access that article--and even know it exists.)

A FAQ area of the PRA website sounds good. I haven't been over there recently to see what IS there now.

But what is "new" information (to me anyway) is that the financial status of the PRA is unhealthy. And since I haven't seen an official word on this "fact"? in a report in our magazine, I am considering it hearsay until then. I (and others) want clarification.

I do understand the Board may not be able to handle every little issue a couple members bring up.

OTOH, I don't think reporting the financial viability of the organization is a little issue, or one that we should even have to bring up. It should be a given that the membership is informed on the state of the organization.

[donshoebridge]

so back to the PRA
We have the means of bringing an issue up, discuss it, analyze it, create funding for it and then comunicating it to the BOD for stamp of approval and authorization to start doing it!
Who is the Director that should get the project to run with the ball?
Who can coordinate action and propose changes to Top Brass?
Who is Top Brass and how do they operate?
I the President a man that will see the goods an sign them off?
Or is he a man that has to have final saying and can hold things back?
PRA is here and PRA is us (paid dues or not) and we have the power to move it to higher levels, should we?
thanks
Heron

Heron,

This is a perfect situation for having the chapter persidents make up the board. The ideas can come from the local level, be organized at the local level and be executed at the local level. If extra help is required, other chapters can be called on. But I think it may still be nice to have a couple of higher up organizers just to coordinate events with other chapters.

Good one.

[donshoebridge]

Don, a full finacial disclosure would go a long way to helping ease everyones minds about the issues that keep popping up.

Me, I am of the mindset Tom C has, I sent in my money to get a magazine, and that is what I get.

I am too, Ron.

[donshoebridge]

I was not a member in 1995, so I would like to find out how to access that article. (I would like the information on how to find it to be published so any member can access that article--and even know it exists.)

A FAQ area of the PRA website sounds good. I haven't been over there recently to see what IS there now.

But what is "new" information (to me anyway) is that the financial status of the PRA is unhealthy. And since I haven't seen an official word on this "fact"? in a report in our magazine, I am considering it hearsay until then. I (and others) want clarification.

I do understand the Board may not be able to handle every little issue a couple members bring up.

OTOH, I don't think reporting the financial viability of the organization is a little issue, or one that we should even have to bring up. It should be a given that the membership is informed on the state of the organization.

An annual "State Of The PRA" report would be good for everyone.

As for a financial report, I'm not sure but isn't there a financial report given during the BOD meetings at Mentone and Bensen Days? The general meetings are open to the entire membership.

Well, anyways... I think this conversation has just about run it's course. I have a better understanding of what people are wanting now.

[Gary_in_Orygun]

I'll just wind this down by addressing the point you made about the financial report being given at some BOD meeting that is thousands of miles away for me and farther for others...that ain't enough reporting.

In this day and age of computers and websites, there should at least be a Protected area (password required) of the PRA website that members could go to (as we do with our Chapter 73 website--pra73.net) to find up-to-date financial information.

A number of people seem to be zeroing in on it being a good idea to report the financial state of the organization to the entire membership. I just don't want someone to say that I have to travel to Mentone to get the information at some yearly meeting. IN THE MAGAZINE PLEASE. :D

[donshoebridge]

I'll just wind this down by addressing the point you made about the financial report being given at some BOD meeting that is thousands of miles away for me and farther for others...that ain't enough reporting.

In this day and age of computers and websites, there should at least be a Protected area (password required) of the PRA website that members could go to (as we do with our Chapter 73 website--pra73.net) to find up-to-date financial information.

A number of people seem to be zeroing in on it being a good idea to report the financial state of the organization to the entire membership. I just don't want someone to say that I have to travel to Mentone to get the information at some yearly meeting. IN THE MAGAZINE PLEASE. :D

I wasn't trying to suggest that you travel to Mentone or Bensen Days. I was kind of thinking outload and figured that if the finances were given at the meeting, then this information should have been printed in Rotorcraft, which I've never seen before.

You are correct.

[Heron]

I think it will work best, like the airport . . .is there a Chapter based there?
The Chapter could be in charge of anything related to that property and have the supervising powers right next door!
They propose and we dispose or approve, or some other party in the Assn.
Now I feel like we sharpening the knives (metaphoric) to address this issues maybe right here in Florida in a couple of weeks.
If the PRez and his immediate group are reading this, we may have a very productive and friendly meeting, maybe he can even feel like running another term just to see all clear and in a good direction before retiring.
thanks
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

Like I've posted several times, and I'm about to post it again, the financial report is given at the general membership meeting in Mentone. A general membership meeting isn't held at Bensen Days although there is a BOD meeting. As far as I can tell, Mentone is the only official PRA event.

The financial report has been in the magazine in years past and in fact was a regular once a year presentation after the convention when Roger Wood and Rod Reed were treasurer. And if it wasn't for the fact that the last time it was in there someone took the opportunity to cut and paste it here on the Forum it would probably still appear in there.

So, there it was out in the public for members and non-members alike to scrutinize and comment on. And just like every other issue, questions came up and the integrity of the BOD was questioned. And just like every other PRA issue that comes up, it quickly polarized people. When the BOD didn't respond here it only got worse. And why would the BOD walk into a war zone where they can't satisfy everyone and there will be some that would just take it as an opportunity to attack them further. I doubt if you will see the financial report in the magazine again. If it is really important to you then you will have to contact the treasurer.

The BOD members have a life outside the PRA, unlike the detractors, apparently, so they aren't going to be able to take the time to get into a debate that has no end. Passionate discussions here are won, not by the logic of the presentation, but from how long one side can outlast the other. When one side gets tired of responding, or runs out of time, they quit posting and that is the end of it. No resolution, just the end of it. But since there was no resolution the subject of the discussion will eventually raise its head again and the routine starts all over.

I personally feel that a liaison between this Forum and the PRA BOD should be established by the BOD. I’ve been saying this for as long as we have had the Internet to use as a communication medium. I think the BOD is missing an opportunity stay in touch with the gyro community. The liaison would be the focal point for all the questions (and attacks!) and the one to officially present the position of the BOD. It is unlikely that the BOD agrees 100% on issues either so what would be presented would be a consensus. However, it would not be fair to expect the liaison to get into a debate on any subject.

I cited lack of communication as a major issue when I ran for the BOD last year. I still feel that way. However, I don’t think this Forum should be the main conduit for PRA communication. Gary has mentioned the PRA web site with a members only section for this purpose. I have also mentioned this several times and recently spelled out that I would like to see a Forum type section on the web site for PRA members to discuss the issues. This section is the logical place to for the financial statement to appear and if a Forum type section was available for comments/discussion then there wouldn’t be a reason to have a discussion like this one on this Forum.

I communicated with John Alexander this past week about the status of the PRA web site’s maintenance and the members only section. John had committed to a March date but just like any volunteer he has had life get in the way. I hope he doesn’t mind revealing that he had shoulder surgery this past Tuesday so that is just another event that has held him up. The web team is slowly moving in the right direction and hopefully the web site will, one day, measure up to what we want and solve our communication issues.

[Harry_S.]

WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL HERE. ANYWAY?

My local EAA Chapter is given a treasurer's report at every monthly meeting. No big deal!!

I see no earthly reason why an Annual Financial Report cannot be published in the PRA MAG. I see no earthly reason why it is not in the PRA MAG. I see no earthly reason why the subject *Report* should be published here on this or any other web site.

If one is not a member of the PRA...one does not receive the PRA MAG and one does not warrant having the *Report* information.

PRA Members...contact the PRA Headquarters and demand an itemized AFR to be published in a specified (month) PRA MAG.

.

[Dean_Dolph]

Don, your proposal would would be similar to having the states governors run the U.S. You might not see a problem with that but the govs have enough problems in their region without trying to run the country. Why do you think that the chapter presidents would operate any differently than the present BOD arrangement? I see a problem with chapter agendas getting in the way of the international one.

Chapters come and go but the BOD is always there. There isn't anything wrong with the BOD that can't be fixed by electing people that carry a message from the members with them. I would hope that the BOD members personal agendas align with mine but if the members elect people that I don't agree with (and they have!) then I can live with that.

[Heron]

I am going to read this again and try to understand every nuance of it.
Sensei
Debates are over future actions of actions perceived as improper or inefective.
I don't care much about the airport issue or the balance, I care about what to do next and how can we get around some idea that will bring progress to PRA and the membership closer together.
This Forum and the old one exist only because of a void on our site.
If the BOD decides, this forum can be attached to the PRA site and be the official place for discussions, debates, disclosures, etc.
I would have paid my dues long ago if there was a requirement to participate here!
Anything that was suggested could attract more members if initiated, I go to the web site and it is the same, quiet, inocuous (?) we need interactivity there. Is this some form of detraction?
Now that you are back in here, what do you think the situation is, and how much money can we raise to bail PRA out? (if needed at all)
thanks
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

Heron, because of the fact that the PRA is an organization of rotorcraft enthusiasts and not a commercial for profit organization, I don't think we can expect many changes all at once. When money is to be made then projects are handled differently with resources (read people) and funding made available. The EAA is a good example of a aviation enthusiasts commercial organization. ASC looks like it is also turning into one.

The PRA has only volunteers with limited time and very little money to work with. I do believe that proposals should not be rejected out of hand but we need to be realistic about the organizations resources and resultant timeline. I would like to see the BOD create short and long term goals. It is hard to tell but it doesn't appear that the BOD has action plans in place. I'm just guessing but I suspect the BOD, for the most part, is continuously fire fighting rather than being pro-active. Setting goals reduces that. I apologize to the BOD if I have it all wrong but......

The first thing that has to happen is for the BOD to recognize that changes are needed. And I think at least some of them do. Whether the majority supports those changes or supports the status quo is a matter of conjecture since the BOD minutes have not been made available to the members. When we get the web site up to speed then I'm hopeful that these minutes, along with the financial report, will be posted there.

This bring me back to what I feel needs to happen first if any changes are to take place. And that is the one of improved communication. Without it nothing can or will be done.

If I were on the board I would be pushing for web site funding so that it is maintained and kept up to date. I firmly believe that it is the most valuable resource the PRA has at the moment. If an appeal has to be made to the chapters, or the unseen benefactors, to make this happen then I believe it should be done. A lot of us send donations to Todd for this Forum and we should be willing to do the same for the web site.

[Vance]

I have run two not for profit clubs and both times came in when there was trouble. It is my opinion that both times the trouble started because of the lack of a tresurers report.

In business I have always shared the financials with the people I work with and it has helped everyone to pull their oars in the same direction and foster the idea of efforts to fund their paycheck.

There is a large group of people who feel that financials should be kept secreat or only shared with a select few. This is not an unusual attitude.
It may work for some people who are not corfortable defending numbers.

When the two orginazations became solvent, some of the members wanted to have a party so we wouldn't have so much money in the treasury, reinforcing the idea of limited access to the financials.

I found it much easier to protect the money that people had knoledge of than to defend decisions that could not be quantified by the general membership.

I am only trying to offer my experiance here. I do not believe that there is a right answer, only what worked for me.

Thank you, Vance

[Dean_Dolph]

WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL HERE. ANYWAY?

My local EAA Chapter is given a treasurer's report at every monthly meeting. No big deal!!Yeah, well so does my local PRA chapter!

I see no earthly reason why an Annual Financial Report cannot be published in the PRA MAG. I see no earthly reason why it is not in the PRA MAG. I see no earthly reason why the subject *Report* should be published here on this or any other web site.Well, Harry, let me give you one! I just posted it in another post but I'll repeat it. All posting it in the mag, or here, will accomplish is to start a bitch session. And there will be no resolution.

There will never be 100% agreement on how the BOD spends our money and since that is the case then why discuss it here. I get the feeling that those that bring up issues here don't have the guts to contact the BOD and challenge them. Posting here is the secure and lazy way out. It makes the poster feel good because he/she is sure to get someone else to agree so they feel they are not alone. The fact that the silent majority may not agree doesn't occur to them.

If one is not a member of the PRA...one does not receive the PRA MAG and one does not warrant having the *Report* information........ You got that right and since we can't stop non-members from reading what is posted here it is another reason not to post PRA family business here.

[Dean_Dolph]

Vance, the PRA financial report isn't being kept a a secret. It is always read at the annual convention's general membership meeting. While I'm sure the treasurer is always aware of the financial situation I don't know how often a financial report is generated. I suspect one will be presented at the only other official BOD meeting which is Bensen Days.

It is my understanding that the only reason the financial report wasn't published in the mag this last year was because someone who wasn't happy with how the money was being spent cut and pasted the financial report on this Forum. This resulted in the intergrity of the BOD being questioned. It didn't solve anything.

If people have a question for the BOD such as spending decisions then why don't they communicate directly with them? Bringing PRA issues to this Forum will not result in any resolution.

[Harry_S.]

Yeah, well so does my local PRA chapter!

Well, Harry, let me give you one! I just posted it in another post but I'll repeat it. All posting it in the mag, or here, will accomplish is to start a bitch session. And there will be no resolution.

There will never be 100% agreement on how the BOD spends our money and since that is the case then why discuss it here. I get the feeling that those that bring up issues here don't have the guts to contact the BOD and challenge them. Posting here is the secure and lazy way out. It makes the poster feel good because he/she is sure to get someone else to agree so they feel they are not alone. The fact that the silent majority may not agree doesn't occur to them.

You got that right and since we can't stop non-members from reading what is posted here it is another reason not to post PRA family business here.

Will someone show me how to pick out separate segments of a quote like Dean has done in quoting from my post??

Dean, I stated that the detailed financial statement S/B published in the MAG...not on this forum. And if a bitch session starts (where will it start?)...so what?! If I question some cash outlay, why can I not voice my opinion...bitch as you call it.

Stating that the reading of the Financial Statement at a general membership meeting at Mentone and not publishing in the PRA MAG, as being adequate, is asinine, in my opinion. How many members, what percentage of membership, is in attendance at that meeting?? Should the major, MAJOR percentage of members around the world, by the way, not have access to the *Report?* It should be published in the PRA MAG. Might I add...in detail. "General Expenses" don't cut it.

Let's get the PRA WEB going and discuss it there...restricted to PRA members only.

.

[Rando]

Will someone show me how to pick out separate segments of a quote like Dean has done in quoting from my post??You click on quote and then highlight and delete anything you don't want to keep between the words QUOTE and QUOTE (you must keep the brackets that are on either side).

[Dean_Dolph]

Will someone show me how to pick out separate segments of a quote like Dean has done in quoting from my post??.Harry, I like the quote part although it takes a little manipulation and time to break a message up into several quotes. You have found how to get the entire quote by selecting the 'quote' button. When you do that you see a beginning quote such as QUOTE=Harry_S. that is enclosed in brackets. You will also see an ending quote /QUOTE that is also enclosed in brackets.

What you have to do is highlight the beginning quote with your mouse and then go to the Edit menu at the top of Internet Explorer (if that is what you are using) and select copy.

Once copied you can paste it at the start of any part of the message that you want to isolate. You have to include an ending quote for each beginning quote you've used. You have to copy and paste the ending quote just as you did the beginning one.

You could just type in the quote code(s) and the ending one isn't too bad but the beginning one is a hassle for me and that is why I copy and paste.

I always do a preview to see if the quotes worked correctly. Sometimes I'll accidentally erase part of the quote code while typing and it won't display properly. Once you've done it a couple of times it isn't too difficult and I find it easier to reply to the myriad thoughts that appear in most of our messages.

I also find it easier do the manipulation by highlighting the entire quote and then pasting it in Word. I have a larger screen to work with then.

[Dean_Dolph]

.......Dean, I stated that the detailed financial statement S/B published in the MAG...not on this forum. And if a bitch session starts (where will it start?)...so what?! If I question some cash outlay, why can I not voice my opinion...bitch as you call it..Harry, you have every right to question cash outlays! What I'm pointing out (and that isn't going to stop anyone!) is that complaining to the Forum isn't going to result any resolution. If a Forum type section was available in the members only section of the PRA web site then, in my simple mind, it might get some attention from someone on the BOD. They are not going to come here and participate in a war.

Stating that the reading of the Financial Statement at a general membership meeting at Mentone and not publishing in the PRA MAG, as being adequate, is asinine.......Where did I say it was adequate? I gave the reason why it hasn't been published lately. ........ Should the major, MAJOR percentage of members around the world, by the way, not have access to the *Report?* Certainly! Just not by way of the magazineIt should be published in the PRA MAG. Might I add...in detail. "General Expenses" don't cut it.I disagree for the reason(s) I've already given.

.......Let's get the PRA WEB going and discuss it there...restricted to PRA members only.

.This would seem to be the logical answer but to date the web site hasn't received any priority.

[gyromike]

Will someone show me how to pick out separate segments of a quote like Dean has done in quoting from my post??

Like this Harry.
You have to put the QUOTE tags before and after the text you want to highlight. The /QUOTE tag turns the quote off..

{QUOTE=Harry} Dean, I stated that the detailed financial statement S/B published in the MAG...not on this forum. And if a bitch session starts (where will it start?)...so what?! If I question some cash outlay, why can I not voice my opinion...bitch as you call it.
{/QUOTE}

Substitute brackets "[ & ]" for braces "{ & }", and it'll look like this:

Dean, I stated that the detailed financial statement S/B published in the MAG...not on this forum. And if a bitch session starts (where will it start?)...so what?! If I question some cash outlay, why can I not voice my opinion...bitch as you call it.

If you don't assign the quote to someone {quote=Harry}, it'll look like the one below:

Let's get the PRA WEB going and discuss it there...restricted to PRA members only.

If you are just breaking up a quote to respond to seperate sections, no need to assign each block to the original poster. Just use the QUOTE and /QUOTE tags


And that is how we do that!

[GyroRon]

By full disclosure finacial report, I mean FULL and for both orgs.

We must not forget that there is two orgs here friends!!!!

I would like to see how much the pra pays out for anything and everything it pays out on. I would like to see how much comes into the PRA. I would then like to see the same info for the PRA mentone Org.

[KenSandyEggo]

Like $800 or something like that in bank fees?

[GyroRon]

Banks charge business' for banking. 800$ sounds like alot, but it may not be with the amount of transactions the PRA most likely does.

[PRA]

Like $800 or something like that in bank fees?
Ken,

I'll make one attempt to clear some of this up for you and others. I will also request to the Treasurer that we provide more of a breakdown of the categories for income and expenses in the future, if P.R.A. decides to publish financial reports in the magazine again.

As to your concern about "Bank Charges", it consists of everything from charges to the merchant (P.R.A.) for giving the customers (members) the opportunity to use credit cards for payment. In case some are not aware, the fees charged to merchants for this convenience for customers is a killer for a non-profit organization, in my opinion. Other charges consists of checking account fees and non-sufficient funds fees for when members bounce checks when paying for their memberships. And believe me, there are entirely to many of these type of fees a year.

Ken, if this doesn't help clear up some of your questions, please submit your questions to the P.R.A. office by email or mail for publishing in Rotorcraft magazine for answering.

[Dean_Dolph]

.......please submit your questions to the P.R.A. office by email or mail for publishing in Rotorcraft magazine for answering.Nah, that would be too easy and not as much fun!

[Harry_S.]

Where did I say it was adequate? I gave the reason why it hasn't been published lately. Certainly! Just not by way of the magazineI disagree for the reason(s) I've already given.


UGH...Sorry Dean and Mike...this old grey matter don't get along with this dumb machine. I think I got this one quote okay but it won't show up till I preview it.

How's about a thread for "Forum Computer For Dummiies 101?!"

Could I quote chop Dean's quote chop of my original post??


Anyhow...Dean, what means would you suggest, to get the financial report to all PRA Members, located around the world, if not in the MAG?

On preview, I had to delete some stuff above the quote.:confused:
.
.

[Dean_Dolph]

........On preview, I had to delete some stuff above the quote.:confused: Harry, just to clarify the quotes a little more; you can keep making changes and keep previewing until it looks right. Once it looks and says what you want it to say then you can submit it. This is what I do most of the time but it doesn't keep me from putting my foot in my mouth occasionally!

........Dean, what means would you suggest, to get the financial report to all PRA Members, located around the world, if not in the MAG?Good question and what I propose isn't going to work for those without Internet access. But I still feel that the report and other PRA discussion should take place on the PRA web site.

I hate to sacrifice those that can't access the net but continuing the discussions here isn't getting us any where and possibly results in us alienating present and future members. I don't know if Mentone or the BOD get complaints from people that are not on the net. If they don't then it seems to me that those members are not concerned about not getting a report anyway.

[Timchick]

How about putting the info in the magazine and in a member's only section of the website?

[donshoebridge]

Don, your proposal would would be similar to having the states governors run the U.S. You might not see a problem with that but the govs have enough problems in their region without trying to run the country. Why do you think that the chapter presidents would operate any differently than the present BOD arrangement? I see a problem with chapter agendas getting in the way of the international one.

Chapters come and go but the BOD is always there. There isn't anything wrong with the BOD that can't be fixed by electing people that carry a message from the members with them. I would hope that the BOD members personal agendas align with mine but if the members elect people that I don't agree with (and they have!) then I can live with that.

Dean,

My thinking is that since the members would have monthly contact with the president (board member), there would be communication between board members and the PRA membership as a whole. Also, I've heard people in the past complain about their presidents not doing anything. With the added responsibilities of being a board member, if the presidents don't perform, they would be gone after 1 term. If one year isn't soon enough, chapter’s members could start a new chapter and vote a new president in pretty quick. To be safe, I think new chapters should not have their presidents on the board for at least 6 months.

I still think that it would be a good idea to have a national board of some kind like what we currently have, mainly to act as coordinators for different parts of the world.

But hey, this is just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.

[Dean_Dolph]

Tim, I would think that if it were posted on the web site and there was also a Forum there for comments and discussion then the chances of it being posted here again would be reduced to between slim and none. I personally don't have any problem with it being posted here anyhow except for the fact it just offers another opportunity for nit pickers.

I just reviewed EAA's annual financial report for last year. In comparing it with PRA's the first thing that obviously pops out is the numbers. Wow, we are talking millions of dollars as opposed to tens of thousands! The other thing is that compared to the PRA's is that they must be doing a lot of covering up because their report doesn't reveal near as much detail as the PRA's.:D

[Timchick]

Dean, It doesn't really concern me that much. I was just trying to suggest something that might appease most of the people. I kind-of feel the way Tom does. I went out to eat today with my daughter and son-in-law and spent more for a meal than I do on my PRA dues. I'm not going to waste a lot of time fretting over how my PRA dues should be spent. I do think PRA should have some goals and we should be working toward those goals to make PRA a better org.

[Heron]

Tim Chick my man . . .you've got it!! That is what we need, programs to work and create gravitational pulling for more volunteers/members.
So Mr. Dolph . . .
If you disagree with someone, does that makes you a bitch?
Or do you have to post some number of posts to atain that category?
Web page should be interactive and trasparent, Mag should be informative and pictures to keep.
Question:
CAn PRA make money?
I think a nonprofitorg, can not show profit in its report, but can make money so its members can buy more of what is needed to stay in business and grow
At the end of the fiscal year all money made has to be spent. Am I wrong here?
AS the thread goes along, the questions remain and some anwers are been presented to all interested in been more informed, so this is agood thing.
Now I want my Bitch Card signed by all of you that think I am a Bitch, this card will be in my office wall in Brazil, Heron de Souza the Offical PRA Bitch!
Heron :D
(buyingnother gyro so the club will have a machine to solo in)

[PRA]

Heron,

You'll have to come up with another title on your card 'cause I already hold the title of the "Official PRA Office Bitch". I even have a set of dog tags with that on it. I'll wear them to Bensen Days and show you.:)

[Heron]

:(
No FAir!
I hate been second Bitch! :D
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

Heron, my definition of a Forum bitcher is someone that complains without ever offering a solution. And if they do then they never let it go when the solution doesn't garner any support. At that point they aren't bitching any longer but just nagging.

Disagreement doesn't fit that definition. But then I know ex basketball refs have a difficult time following logical explanations.!

[Heron]

Aw . . .c'mon Sensei . . .U saying I am not a bitch then?
I did offer lots of suggestions and created another group that can fly gyros and participate.
Pam . . .I think you will be the only one on that category then . . .
Sensei . . .do you hate refs?
Heron :)

[Dean_Dolph]

Sensei . . .do you hate refs?
Heron :)Aw, c'mon Heron, everyone loves refs! But this is off topic.

[Heron]

Topic? Is that edible?
We are way of couse here, I need a GPS to get back in topic . . .
Airport and shenannigans that is the topic.
I thinks is allright and can be fixed, the lack of communications can be fixed and forgiven and we go to the next airport, how bout that?
Heron

[KenSandyEggo]

Dean, while shining his shoes with what he thought was Shinola for the Saturday hoedown, posted: "Heron, my definition of a Forum bitcher is someone that complains without ever offering a solution. And if they do then they never let it go when the solution doesn't garner any support. At that point they aren't bitching any longer but just nagging."

Dean, plenty of people complained here about being kept in the dark about PRA/PRA Mentone's financial status. Many suggested the posting somewhere, anywhere, of a true financial statement for all the members to see....something all the members have a right to see, and a solution. This would solve a lot of unknowns.

Now, according to you, because they've been ignored, they're bitching and nagging. What if someone owes you 10 thousand bucks Dean, and doesn't pay it back after you've asked for it back a few times. Would you just blow it off because you don't want to bitch and nag?

This request has garnered plenty of support. It's the treasurer, president and any board member that has this knowledge and refuses to share it with the members that are the cause of what you refer to as bitching and nagging. If a justified request is made and the members are just ignored, I guess they should just stop asking for the information? And don't come out with your stuff about phoning the treasurer to get the info. He could tell anyone anything. Part of his job is to make that information available to the members for our scrutiny and review.

Those just happy to get an ever-diminishing magazine, just go to the outhouse and read it again and don't worry about it. Some of us expect a little more from those we trust with our dues and organization.

[Vance]

Hello Ken, I have indoor plumbing, and besides the magizine is printed on slick paper, so it is not good for outhouse use.

Thank you, Vance

[KenSandyEggo]

Vance!!! You're acquiring a sense of humor! I knew you could do it. You're right about it being too slick. That's why I save all of our corn cobs.

[TomCarlisle]

They don't print the right kinda pictures for that kinda readin!

[donshoebridge]

Now, according to you, because they've been ignored, they're bitching and nagging. What if someone owes you 10 thousand bucks Dean, and doesn't pay it back after you've asked for it back a few times. Would you just blow it off because you don't want to bitch and nag?

Ken,

Now I doubt that the PRA or PRA Mentone Inc. owes you $10K, or even $1 for that matter. However, other than a timely and accurate financial report, is there anything else that the PRA owes you, or any other PRA member?

Just curious...

[Heron]

Don? Can you save some for me?
What some people don't realise is the intent of the complaint.
You can separate people in 3 classes:
1-Those who tried and succeed
2-Those who tried and failed
3-Those who never tried
It has been found that the second group has more happy people in it that the other two.
What is the silent majority saying?
Where are you going to get info to base your project on?
Is the King naked?
What is the governing body of the PRA goint to do different from now on?
thanks
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

……
Dean, plenty of people complained here about being kept in the dark about PRA/PRA Mentone's financial status. I’m not sure how many is plenty but I think plenty of people don’t feel that they have been kept in the dark. Both of our statements have no merit what so ever.
…… Many suggested the posting somewhere, anywhere, of a true financial statement for all the members to see....something all the members have a right to see, and a solution. This would solve a lot of unknowns. I don’t think anyone disagrees that posting the financial statement ‘somewhere’ is the right thing to do. The disagreement is where it is posted. Apparently ‘many’ believe that posting it here is okay. I disagree. And we have already seen that posting it in the magazine results in it ending up here. The resulting questions about spending are not going to get an official response here from the BOD, period! It is evident from your, and others, reaction that any response they gave here would just result in never ending questions. You guys have demonstrated that you can’t accept the answers given. After a while the questioning gets old and your motives come into question.……..What if someone owes you 10 thousand bucks Dean, and doesn't pay it back after you've asked for it back a few times. Would you just blow it off because you don't want to bitch and nag? Well, with all my money I would probably just furgettabout it! Not! I don’t know what I would do except I do know I wouldn’t take it public where I know there wouldn’t be a resolution. I would go straight to the source and deal with it there. No bitching, no nagging, just deal with it! ……It's the treasurer, president and any board member that has this knowledge and refuses to share it with the members that are the cause of what you refer to as bitching and nagging. Ignore and refuses to share knowledge? Really! Have you ever made a direct request for info either by email or phone where this happened to you? My inquiries have always received a response.…… He could tell anyone anything. Part of his job is to make that information available to the members for our scrutiny and review. If you don’t believe what the leadership vocally tells you one on one then why would you believe what would appear in a posting? It appears that what you are saying is that you aren’t going to be satisfied with any answer you receive.Those just happy to get an ever-diminishing magazine, just go to the outhouse and read it again and don't worry about it. Some of us expect a little more from those we trust with our dues and organization.Well, those of us who have been PRA members for a number of years will tell you that where the mag is concerned there have been good times and bad times. There was a time when the mag was only published four times a year. There was a time when there were no expensive color presentations. There was a time when the member had no input and it was a promotional tool for a business. We’ve come a long way baby!

The magazine has evolved and at times expands, and contracts, as economics dictate. But, as some people have already stated, the magazine and membership in the PRA are the only things we contract for when we send in our money. Anything we get above and beyond that is frosting. Apparently you expect more. In time, I would hope the evolution satisfies your expectations. One question is still unanswered, will you ever trust any of our leaders and what they tell you?

[Heron]

There Ken!
You should now understand that all is good and right and the people involved gave their best and there is nothing else that can be done.
Lets all be happy now!
Heron

[KenSandyEggo]

Heron, it's amazing, isn't it? Dean and Don are experts in twisting and turning and predicting what I'd say "if". How they know how I'd react or what I'd believe is beyond me, but they seem to know. You guys deserve what you get for your dues. A magazine that is continually declining in quantity and diminishing in quality (# of color pages, etc.). Nothing is expanding at PRA except it's lack of cash and communication with its members. "We need more money to stay solvent." What's happening with the money already coming in from dues, hangar rentals and land leasing for farming? Answer: Years of silence. Unless these questions are answered in the near future, only the (fill in the blank) ones will keep sending in their dues.

[digbar]

Doing a magazine is one HELL of a job. I've done several newsletters, for an EAA chapter and for Habitat for Humanity in Columbus, and for something that looks simple, it's incredibly complex: Will the pictures get turned in on time, will they be useable, will the writers actually come through with the articles they promised, will the printer have production problems, and on and on!

Don't EVEN expect any thanks for all your work. In the EAA newsletters, politics got involved because I printed Ronald Reagan's letter to the air traffic controllers, promising them his unbridled support (a year before he fired them all!). Boy, the vigoro hit the mixmaster that time!

I'm too new to PRA to know much about it's communication and financial situations, but give the magazine a break, or go do it yourself.

Digbar

[KenSandyEggo]

"I'm too new to PRA to know much about it's communication and financial situations, but give the magazine a break, or go do it yourself."

Digbar, you're another one that needs to open his eyes and read more carefully. No one is belittling the efforts put into the magazine. Get off your pony. The magazine has been cut back in quality and number of issues, supposedly because of financial problems, yet no one who has the information about it wants to tell the members about it. That's the issue, not that someone is not doing their best on the issues that are published. I want to know why the magazine has been cut back.....where's the money going that comes in from dues, hangar rentals and the farmer(s) that lease airport land? So far it's been a big secret.

[Rando]

So far it's been a big secret.Ken, maybe I'm wrong but as far as I know, this forum is in no way an official part of the PRA. I really think your wasting your time expecting an official response on this forum. I have attended numerous life member meetings and regular member meetings and the PRA officers have always answered any questions that were asked of them. Just because they don't reply to you on this forum you think there is some type of conspiracy!

[Timchick]

Ken,
Just call for Pete's sake! Don't keep spouting off the same thing over and over here on the forum. Call PRA. But you know what, you won't call because then you'd have to find something else to complain about. Right now you've got your complaints down pretty good and if you got them answered you'd have to start from scratch and find another list of stuff you don't like.

[KenSandyEggo]

"Right now you've got your complaints down pretty good and if you got them answered you'd have to start from scratch and find another list of stuff you don't like."

Gee, Dean.....I mean Tim, is that what I would do? Thanks for the insight. You guys are great about predicting what I will do in the future.

Randy, what airline do I catch to Mentone so I can ask a question? Several board members post here and have discussed the PRA. You guys are living in a dreamworld to excuse the non-disclosure of our organization's finances. I'll take the hint. You get what you deserve. A lot of you don't deserve jack-crap because you don't care. I just quit caring too and will spend my next membership dues on gas. Just keep sending your money in without knowing or caring how it's handled or what's done with it and the other income. Gullibility is running rampant in this thread. My next post regarding the PRA will simply state: "I told you so."

[Heron]

I don't know what to say anymore, I can't even be a bitch anylonger!
If you guys could use the energy and effort to do something instead of coming here and try to stop a discussion.
This is what this Forum is for, discuss, debate and if possible implement something.
You read, do something or shush . . .it is getting personal on your side don't you see?
And don't you dare post some stupidity after my post, I forbid you!
Please be a little inteligent before posting.
Heron (half kidding half serious)

[Steve McGowan]

For those of you that didn't know Ken Brock, Floyd Brown, or Bill Parsons.
Ya missed something..

These people are the finest I've ever been around, gyros were they're lives,,

So whats the deal with WHO OWNS Mentone,, I'm invited as a guest and member that pays a small amount for dues a year,, It cost us more a day for gas than that.

Would any of the JEALOUS CRY BABIES put forth the effort that Art, Gary, Pam and Glenn have? Much less the money . No,, Ya just want something for nothing.

When the engine quits and gravity takes over,, "MONEY WON"T HELP"

Gary has told me to be safe or go home too.. Dave Pratter has and still tells me that after almost 25 years. "Thank You Both" it's saved my ass more than one time.

Whom ever started this about Mentone... Your FARTING in CHURCH..WE/I own the air I breath at that time,, Thats ALL..

Get your MIND on what your doing DUMMY

Hopefully the folks I've taught have more BackBone and Heart than BITCH about a few dollars membership and WHO owns the airport.

get your Heart in.. Or get your Ass Out.

Steve

[TomCarlisle]

Yeah Steve!

[BUD ONEAL]

Way to go Steve! I agree with you,And according to the bitcher we won't hear any more from him because there won't be any reason to post his "I told you so" comment.
When you get around the Ider Al. area stop by and see Rhonda and I.
Bud

[barnstorm2]

Well put,

Thanks Steve!!

[Rando]

Steve for Prez!

[scottessex]

You The Man Steve!

Like I said before, this is OUR organization, Our magazine, submit articles, pictures, report on a fly-in, a small org like this needs the help of all its members. I have submitted articles to motorcycle magazines etc. it is a lot of work but that is what helps keep the magazine great.
As far as the airport goes, maybe by having PRA own the airport it won't get snatched up by developers to put in a strip mall, airports are going away and being taken over by houses, so the PRA owns an airport---Bonus!

[donshoebridge]

Steve took the words right out of my mouth! Steve for persident - I'll second the motion!

[Steve McGowan]

Not No,,, But Hell NO..

Ist thing,,,, The forum is a great tool.. It's really informative for the new person wanting to find out something..

On the other hand,,, It's been BAD News for those searching for info and find a buncha pouting asses.. It runs people away.. The fly-ins and the PRA are where we all need to learn and stick together.

Far As Gary Goldsberry is concerned.. All the man has attempted to do is help.. I didn't say he's my hero,, But what if he is ?

"Now Get Off The Man's Back"

I could say more but it'd be adding fuel to a @#$%^&*UI( fire.

Hope to see all of Ya at Benson Day's..

me&BOO

[Heron]

Hmmm
A different twist to the plot!
Twelve noon, pistols, meet you at Wauchula! :D
Heron (always adding to the fire)

[gyroplanes]

Did Gary kick Bob Miller out on the Airport telling him it is my airport? If so why? He was a ASC BFI. Bob is one of the best instructor I have trained with.


I have called and e-mailed my friend Bob "Alien" Miller regarding the alleged "MY AIRPORT" claim and he has not responded to either.

I probably should have not included the reason why I was calling and e-mailing.

I sort of remember Bob and Gary having words over an off field landing Bob made. If I remember correctly, Bob had a student with him and set his Air Command down in a field due to lack of lift.

I also remember the former PRA Pres. George Charlet having heated words with another BFI regarding night flight in experimental aircraft. It too had bad consequences.

I hope someone will come forward with the details.

When the BFI first became available, the receipients were looked down upon by most CFIs that I know. I can somewhat understand that in light of the considerable testing a CFI undergoes, compared to a BFI.

At my IA renewal last week an FAA employee was addressing the 300-400 IAs attending regarding the new 16 hour class to earn an Inspector's Repairman's Certificate. It brought howls of disbeliefe and laughter from the crowd.

To earn an Inspection Authorization to inspect standard certificated aircraft one has to be a working A&P tech for a minimum of 3 years and pass the hardest written test I have ever taken.

To earn the LSA Inspector Repairman's Certificate it only takes 16 classroom hours, hence the disbelief exhibited.

[Heron]

I dont know Gary Goldsberry very well but he does seems to be that kind of guy. It may have been the exchange of words that got them to say what they did not mean.
There is less in the problems that this threads insinuate, it is the "I want . . .shut up" that prolongs every one of them.
A few people start talking about and some others come to the rescue of the honor of the PRA (or friends) and the whole thing becomes very repetitive.
Maybe if nobody answers after a while, the complain die soon or someone comes up with some acceptable answer or means to get it!
We are pretty close to an agreement and some actions to move ahead, spit contest apart.
Heron

[gyroblackwell]

Thanks Steve .... you have called it as you see it... and are right on the money !

See you at bensen Days!

[StanFoster]

Steve: You said it PERFECTLY. I would like to add that this forum would advance the gyrocopter sport so much more if we all got on the same side of the rope and pulled together.



See ya at Bensen days...:)

Stan

[Heron]

Ok, you guys are going to gang up?
My revenge will be terrible!
Get out of the trenches you fools!
Broke Back Mountain apart . . .I want to see all holding hands around a commom task!
Steve . . .would you hold my hand? :)
Heron

[Steve McGowan]

I keep hearing about this BB Mountain,,

I don't have any idea what it be-like or about,

but if it helps to keep any of you Hard Headed, Hairy Palmed rascals outta

harms way,,, Oh Yea,, I got ya Hand Brother.. But we don't take any

showers together. Booters has teeth,, He Do Bite!

[GyroRon]

Broke Back mountain is a new movie about two cowboys who end up falling in love with each other and becoming homosexual with each other. Or at least that was what I heard...

[TomCarlisle]

Sheephearders Ron, Not Cowboys!

[scott heger]

Gee Ron, after you watching the movie seven times, you should have figured out the plot line. Maybe you could ask Kenny J. also. I heard he gets a bulk rate at the theatre showing the movie.


Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[GyroRon]

Scott, I wait for movies to come out on DVD... and I won't be waiting for that one. Last movie I saw at the theatre was Star Wars last summer.

[Wilson]

Sheephearders Ron, Not Cowboys!

Thank good for that :eek:
But I have never seen a Sheep Camp with more than one herder and 4 dogs. Maybe Hollywood took a few a liberties in making that movie :confused:

[chuter]

Boy, this thread has gotten just SLIGHTLY off track..............:o

[Aussie_Paul]

Sheephearders Ron, Not Cowboys!

Hey Tom, don't pick on my NZ mates like that !!!!:eek:

Aussie Paul.:)

[donshoebridge]

Broke Back mountain is a new movie about two cowboys who end up falling in love with each other and becoming homosexual with each other. Or at least that was what I heard...

Up here, it's more commonly known as "Humpback Mountain".

[Heron]

Computer problems and airport duties are taking me away for a while.
See you lucky ones at Wauchula . . .and the others when gyros become too boring (yeah right)
Heron