RAF owners/drivers

[Harry_S.]

Starting this thread for the RAF people. Intent is to gather and pass on info, tips, mods, questions, answers, experiences and whatever comes up.

Let's start it off with cylinder compression checks. How good was yours, what cylinder, by number, was the worse?

I checked mine today and No. 2 was the culprit at 72 psi.

[StanFoster]

Harry: Good idea on this RAF thread. I cant answer the compression numbers...but here is a tip I can throw in for supporting the rotor.

RAF suggests that the blades will be better treated if supported. I didnt want to have stands...so I rigged up a simple pulley sxstem. The back blade goes in the corner of the hanger over some a rope diagonaly acoss the corner. I simply grab the little rope hanging down under the triangle and swing it over my front blade..and then pull it up to the ceiling and tie it off. Takes less than a minute.,,,, and the other planes scoot right out under my high blade

That little triangle is a piece of conduit with plastic going over it so it wont mark the rotor and also wont stress the trailing edge of the blade.

[StanFoster]

another view

[davreich]

Holy Cow,
An actual POSITIVE threat with no negative. Count me in. A small "cone of silence" is welcome. I need to take a picture of my blade supports. I use expandable fiberglass painting poles with drywall sanding pads on the end. The bases I made but the certain patio umbrella stands would work. ;D

[GyroRon]

Okay... RAF sucks and Dominators rule. ;D

No they are good machines if you work out all the bugs. I can't wait to see and sit in a true Sparrowhawk to see if the added room inside makes a big difference. If the RAF was roomier inside I might be tempted to own one myself.

[StanFoster]

Harry: I also teed into my fuel line and put a clear sight gauge for my fuel level. I have the mast marked so as I can read exactly from my 5 gallon minimum to 22 gallons full. The sight gauge has a small petcock at the top that I open to check the fuel level. It really beats trusting the electronic fuel gauge.

[Aussie_Paul]

Stan, that is a great idea. Did you mean keel or mast for the markings?

Aussie Paul.

[StanFoster]

Paul: I meant the mast ::).....thanks. I will go edit it. ;D

[asmuzsr]

Stan
I did the same thing, put in a sight gauge. Like you said much better. I marked mine on the cabin.
Were'a another way to support your rotor blades. Go to Lowe's or Home Depot or any place were you can get adjustable painting poles. You know the kind that start off maybe 5 feet and extend to 10. Put an paint roller on the end with a thick soft knap. Put it under the blade and push up taking the weight off the blades. use a bungee cord across the top to hold it in place. Attach this before you extend the pole. Make sure the rotor brake is on so the rotors don't swing.

Tony
N267A

[KenSandyEggo]

Why should gyro blades be supported and huge, heavier and longer copter blades not need to be supported? Is support only required for glass blades? I don't really see the need on my aluminum blades. Where does this recommendation come from? I can see it if transporting with the blades on, but why in a hangar? What harm can come if they're not supported while parked?

[birdy]

Ken,
When I had RAF blades on me RAF,I used to support them when it was hangered like these blokes do,it did reduce the skake a fair bit ,as though they alter form or cone angle or somthing. ???

Stan and others,I can see the fuel through the plastic tank,is mine different to yours???? ???

[KenSandyEggo]

Here's an interesting shot. Notice how the glass blades on the closest one droop compared to the aluminum ones. Maybe the glass ones need to be supported. I can sure attest to all the cracking near the straps on my old ones. Maybe the drooping aggravated it.

[StanFoster]

Ken: Awesome shot of those SparrowHawks.....glad to see you posting. I never will forget your desert flying story with the bikers. ;D

I was told to support the blades by others that do. It doesnt take me a minute to string them up.....plus the other planes can get out with out touching my RAF :o

Birdy: I would have to be "Superman" to see my fuel level through that grey tank. ;D. By the way Birdy.....love reading your posts.

[asmuzsr]

Stan
Those are the modified RAF's. Look down the row to 26AV that is the one I sold to Randy.
Tony
N267A

[StanFoster]

Tony: Thanks....your right. I should have recognized the RAF cabins.

[StanFoster]

By the way...I think that the modified RAF's and the SparrowHawks are cutting edge...and should be one safe machine to learn to fly.

[Harry_S.]

Stan;

Your method of blade support is great and economical, I started out that way, but changed to stands. One suggestion that can be used for all supporters; use the styro water pipe insulation around the hard stuff you use under the blade and at the leading & trailing edges, for added "softness". The pipe ins. is already slit.

[Harry_S.]

K.J.

My original, non tip weighted blades, were not supported and one of them started to crack. I called RAF and they didn't question me about it; send them back and they would replace 'em with new tip weighted ones.

My new ones have been supported since day 1 (over 5 yrs. now) and no cracks.

Chuck Beaty opined that long, heavy composite blades should be supported, instead of drooping, over extended periods of several days or weeks.

[Harry_S.]

Birdy;

You have the original style tank, like mine. When I first put fuel in, I leveled the keel and used a black flo-pen and marked across the 5 gal. level on the tank. If my gut don't get in way, I can lean fwd. and eye-ball the situation.

[Harry_S.]

K.J.

With the cost and delivery time going up for SC blades, my desire for a set, is waning.

Question--no baloney now-- did the SC blades *eliminate* the cabin hop, or, do you still have a trifle?

My hop right now is not bad at all, but if it can be eliminated!!!

[KenSandyEggo]

No baloney, Harry. They eliminated it. Even when they were just slapped on and not perfectly centered between the towers, the ride was still the best I ever had. When you get them centered, they are smooooth. I doubt that anyone who flies them will contradict what I said, unless they have a rotor head that's been whacked or something. If you can afford them and are patient, they're well worth it. All that hopping translates into vibes that harm all the components on your gyro, including avionics. It's extra wear and tear on everything that holds it together.

[Gary_in_Orygun]

My SC blades are still being worked on to get them smoothed out. Or I should say my SC rotorhead and blades. Next time I see Jim V. we are going to replace the block, try tracking again, and then if that still isn't in we will try a cordwise balance.

Right now my SC setup is not as smooth as my old RAF setup. But I think that is because Gary Brewer spent a full day with his dynamic balancer getting the settings just right on my old RAF blades. Jim and I went up to check tracking, and I think we need to work on cordwise adjustements next.

How come I didn't luck out like the rest of you SC blade owners. Although, you guys don't also have a the new Sport Copter prototype head. That may be some of my problem.

[KenSandyEggo]

Hi Gary. If Jim flight tests each set before shipping, obtains smoothness, then yours should be smooth also. I'd bet that it has something to do with the rotorhead. You replaced everything up there after your incident, didn't you? If not, you may want to revisit all the components from the mast up.

I flew SCs on 2 different RAF heads and now on the AAI head and they've always been smooth as glass. I would think that Jim would get it sorted out pretty quickly. I found that the cordwise adjustment to be the most critical. Once they're centered, it's a great ride. Gary managed to get your RAF blades smoothed out, but yet his stick shake and hop was horrible the last time I flew with him. You never know. That's why I think it depends on the consistency of the filler when they're made that determines how well they fly. If anyone's were made an hour before quitting time on a Friday...lots of luck.

[CLS447]

This is a great thread! This is the reason I visit & post on this forum. I must say one thing....... HEY PHANTOMRON , step off pal ! I have had the pleasure of meeting you, & we liked you, but if I didn't know you, I would say , by your posts, that you were a real jerk! You never cease to amaze us with your rude behavior. That is our 2 cents! Take it as you like, you may not realize what you sound like.

Sorry about this interuption on this thread. Let's talk about the RAF !!!!!!

[StanFoster]

I had an interesting incident today. I was flying to another airport...and the temperature was 37.....dew point was 33. I was aware of high carb ice potential...and my carb temp gauge was agreeing. Anyway...about two minutes out..I pulled on the carb heat...and proceeded into the down wind leg. When I went to throttle back from my 4200 rpm. cruise....it didnt slow at all....just a slack throttle handle...I thought..."UH oh...this will be an interesting logbook notation." I jiggled throttle....was on final now...played with carb heat on and off...then announced I was doing a go around. I just thought...well....worse thing will be just to do a dead stick landing.

But as I was in the pattern for the second line up to final...I decided to fly it down to the runway...get into ground effect...and fly behind the power curve and land real slow....then cut the motor off. Worked perfect. I just started it up expecting the motor to come roaring to life..but it was now idling. So..I went to the terminal and parked it...and looked it over. Seems my throttle return spring did not have enough pull...plus there was a little frost around the linkage.

I put another spring on it and it feels snappier now. What ticks me off is I was going to put that second spring on this weekend because of a conversation with Jeff Milburg not long ago. He was trying to think of any tips he could pass along to me. I was telling him about my carb temp gauge..and then he told me that his throttle didnt shut off on him one time...and he then put that second spring on.

Maybe I am the only RAF guy out here that wasnt aware of this....but I am learning. ;D

[paulp]

Howdy, Howdy,

Well, this is my first post to this forum so I will see how it goes. I've finally gotten my medical BS straightened out with the FAA!(with some serious political help) They should change their motto to "We're not happy until your not happy." I've just about finished my Taylorcraft BC12-D-4-85 and should be flying by the end of this month. That's a good thing because now I can start construction on my RAF2000GTX(2003 kit)-New generation baldes, new style tank and 2.5L FI Sub. I am looking forward to posting my progress and asking some questions and hopefully not getting my brains beat out. And my first question is the type of stab to get for my RAF? I've looked at Don Parhams, Larry Martain's and Paul Bruttys friend's from down under. Any other suggestions or recommendations?

Would really appreciate any help.

Thanks a Bunch

Paul Patterson
Edmond, Ok :) :) :)

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Hi Paulp:

Let me be the first to welcome you.

I am one of the first ones here to own an RAF so that should give me some credibility to welcome you.

Don't worry about getting your brains beat out by anyone here, if you start out with brains most of us here are quite harmless. ;D

Chuck Ellsworth

[StanFoster]

Paul: Welcome aboard. I am sure you will like your RAF. I have been well pleased with mine so far. I sought out lots of advice before I decided to buy my RAF. I put a lot of weight on advice from pilots with high time in the RAF. Many do not post her on this forum but they were kind enough to call and or e-mail me.

My personal experiences to date are well documented here and so far I can honestly say that my gut feelings concurred with what these RAF guys told me.

I have the Parham stab...and it is really nice. Larry Martins stab is also a nice one...though I cant say from personal experience.

I have flown from day one with my doors on and in gusty winds. I could not be more pleased with the way it handles.

I have my stab set 2 degrees nose down with the keel. You can go back in the archives and find posts on where I measured what the keel angle was in flight. I measured it at 55..65..75..and 85 mph and could not tell any difference in keel angle. It measured at 2 degrees nose down at all these speeds. So...my stab is flying 4 degrees nose down.

Paul....I would be happy to steer you to some of these RAF guys buy e-mail if you want.

Good luck...happy building and flying. Stan:)

[StanFoster]

Paul: I forgot to post a face with my welcome to you aboard. Stan:)

[Gary_in_Orygun]

Ken J... (hey, glad to see you back here BTW)

Regarding my RAF blades...since I'm right here in Ory-gun, and since my RAF first became airworthy again right from Jim's shop, and since he was the first one to test flight my machine after the rollover...yes, Jim is aware that my machine is not as smooth as everyone else's. I just need to find time, (at the same time Jim has time) to get it ironed out.;)

My rotor head is one that Jim had machined from scratch (borrowing portions of his existing head design). Mine was the first. He now has one on his two place trainer too. The vertical plates are machined to have grease zert fittings. Nice feature. We just need to get in there and try different things out.

[GyroRon]

Chris, I was just joking with these guys. Someone made the comment about a positive thread for RAFs and baited me. So go pound some salt or something:D

Can't anyone take a joke around here???

[LARRYEBOYER]

Hey RAF drivers!! I am just getting caught up. I was up at my camp checking things out since I haven't been there since Christmas. I changed oil on the 2 lawn mowers, sharpened blades, and changed oil on 1 fourwheeler. Chris called me last night all wound up about this new thread. I hope this remains the RAF owners care and share thread. I am so tired of RAF bashers. I just want to hear about the inovations you all come up with to make your machine unique to you and safer to fly. Any tips on maintainence or if you catch an area of suspect, please post!!!Chris is coming over tomorrow to take some pictures to post of my finished airframe modification on the new RAF I am building. I have the cabin on and the tailfeathers. I am installing the carpet,fuel lines, some wiring and fuel seat/tank this weekend. Any suggestions to help the process would be greatly appreciated. I saw a post on stabs on this thread. I have heard good things about the Parham stab(Stan Foster) and I have flown the Larry Martin Bad stab for 50 hrs. I put the new LM ultamate on and am very pleased. As Aussie Paul says about his hybred and to use his words" It flies like a sled!"Solid as a rock. No pitching tendancies. I know Stan likes the Parham and I can only speak from experience for Larry Martins 2 stab creations. Aussie Paul. Can you help me with some phone numbers for some salvage yards or parts stores in Austrailia where I could find a cam timing gear for the EJ-20?Gyro Ron. When are you going to get a real gyro like a RAF.I know you like to buy gyros at 2 cents on the dollar. (hence your phrase"just my 2 cents worth")The way RAF pilots love their machines , you may have to hitch rides for a long time!
On the subject of hanging blades to relieve stress, I bought the screw in hooks with the round closed loop. I ran a rope threw it and made a loop with the rope.. I just loop the rope over the blade and pull. I tie it like you tie up a boat at the dock to a nail on the side of the hanger. Super quick and super cheap.I talked to Don Parham the other day. I am sending the wiring harness to my new EJ-22.He reduces it down from 20 lbs to under 4.He said he is 4-5 weeks behind. He told me he has had surgery for an on going problem. Let's hold up his name to the lord tonight for healing and recovery.Also pray for safety for each one of us as we pursue the wonderful gift of flight. One other thing. Let's not forget our servicemen and for their safety. One last thing. Thank GOD for friends like you. ( that means you to Chuck!!!)
:)

[StanFoster]

Larry: Good post. I was thinking that I wish just comment pertaining to the RAF be posted here. I mean..that is what the title says. There are plenty of other places in this forum to post other non RAF topics. I for one think that Harrys idea here is awesome...and I will contribute what little I know.

[Harry_S.]

Stan:

Good, quick thinking as regards your stuck throttle incident. Again, that sort of quick thinking comes as a result of practice, practice and more practice, Very few times do I go up that I do not practice some maneuver before I put it away.

The extra throttle return spring was on my list of *tips & suggestions*. I have a spring going fwd. and one going aft. I drilled a 1/16 in. hole at the bottom rear of the thingy that rotates and anchored the aft end of spring straight back on the redrive plate. Fore and aft springs.

[Harry_S.]

For new RAF's just being built up, I have a suggestion.

To have a neater and better looking heater hose installation, I routed the two water hoses together, from the engine, down the rear of the cabin and entered the cabin on a parallel with and next to the keel.

Each hose had it's own entry hole, 1 in. apart. Used large rubber grommets on the holes and covered the entire hose length, each separately, in black corrugated loom, all the way to the heater. 2 or 3 ties around the hoses, from the engine to the bottom of the cabin and you have a neat installation.

[Harry_S.]

To All:

I wish I had a digital camera, and knew how to use it to post pics along with suggestions.

Any suggestions as to what make and model camera to get and what additional stuff I'll need to send the pics? I don't need some fancy hi-tech stuff, just something to get the point across.
I'm essentially computer ignorant ( Todd knows) and a hunt and peck typist.

[StanFoster]

Harry: That second throttle spring makes my throttle snappier. I should have done that sooner...but...I kind of like my log book entry.

Its kind of weird...as I was contemplating doing a full engine shut down....I kept thinking how I had been practising for this very situation by flying the runway in ground effect at full throttle between 25 and 30 mph. I was aware of holding all that right rudder with the power on...and when my wheels touched down...I cut the engine and let off right rudder at the same time. It worked.... The most serious part of this was when I was descending to the runway. I knew that I could not get myself in a situation where I would not have enough airspeed to make a soft landing should I have an engine failure. My engine was running at about 3800 rpm...had it been say locked in at full throttle.....I would have gone to a full shutdown and dead sticked it in.

I came in at 35 mph to lose altitude...then the closer I got to the ground I increased this to 45 mph. I then just kept pulling back on the stick flying in ground effect until I was kissing the tires to the pavement...then shutdown of the engine and right rudder release. I had a good headwind and I was landing hotter than normal of course with 3800 rpm still pushing me...but my groundspeed was about 15 to 20 at the most.

[Harry_S.]

Again Stan, good quick thinking and good piloting.

Nice description of your *event.*

I'll describe what I use for a normal pattern and approach to landing at my non-controlled airport.
I'm on downwind @ 4-500 ft., close in at about 300 ft., abreast of my touchdown spot,I throttle back to 3800 rpm. and start a circling turn, base to final. When set on final, I throttle back to 3500 rpm. and set air-speed @ 45. I like 3500 rpm. for good rudder control. At about 10 ft. I ease back on the cyclic until the tail wheel is about to touch, cyclic all the way back and throttle to about 3000, when tailwheel touches, throttle and cyclic all the way back. When nose wheel touches, cyclic forward and into the wind.

I put this here primarily for the newer pilots as to how*I* do a normal approach.
You experienced pilots have your own methods and numbers etc.

I wonder how many new and about to be new RAF drivers are out there?

[StanFoster]

Harry: I have a Sony Cybershot 2.0 meg camera. It works perfect for me. I can post 60-80k pictures for e-mailing or take high resolution photos for print quality pictures. It also takes digital movies...but to post them here allows only about 10 seconds of flight. 150 kilobytes is all we are allowed to upload...but that is fine because you have to put a lid on it somewhere.

[barnstorm2]

Stan,

The cybershot series is great. Thats what I use. Nice and small and easy to operate with one hand.

[Harry_S.]

Sounds all Greek to me. I still use a Kodak box camera. I'll check it out.

Thanks.

[StanFoster]

Tim: How do you get those pictures to change like you have by your name? Thats neat.

[barnstorm2]

Stan,

You can upload your Cybershot mpgs to the PRA Chapter 34's FPT site to share them with others. I would like to see them.


I made my 'avatar' by using an anamated .gif file.

If you want to make one of your own:

1. make a couple of 100x100 pixel pictures

2. download the shareware software Babarosa Gif Animator from here:

http://www.liatro.com/

3. Save the gif file and make sure is is under 20k in size ( forum limit sorry )

4. Load the .gif file as your avatar.

If you have a mac you can do the same thing but you will need differnt' software.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Here is a picture of my RAF and Chris's first ride with me.The pictures I post remind me of Tim the tool man's neighbor. You never see my face.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Is Chris happy for the experience or happy to be alive?

[Harry_S.]

Great looking machine Larry.

I bet it flies as good as it looks.

[StanFoster]

Larry: Great looking RAF...

[LARRYEBOYER]

Here is a picture of the new RAF I am building with my keel modification. Chris and I think it looks better than the straight keel.This will lower the thrust line about 6 inches.Also put the horizontal stabalizer 10 inches further back and also in the prop blast.I expect the engine this week.The airframe is finished.
Now the real fun stuff begins.

[LARRYEBOYER]

one more picture with the nose wheel on the ground.

[StanFoster]

Larry: looks like you are coming along with your new machine. Looking good...

[Harry_S.]

Larry;

That looks great. Was or is this an RAF supplied kit to you? You are incorporating your own mods?

How 'bout a side view, concentrating on the aft keel!!

I like it, especially keeping the original vertical tail.

[StanFoster]

This is almost a no-brainer...but I am sure you have noticed my built in GPS in my RAF dash. I also have a Vertex handheld radio that is mounted on a custom box that is an extension of my trim box...and then elbows up to the dash panel.

Anyway....my GPS just ate batteries right and left...and my handheld needed taken out occasionally to get recharged. After a month of getting tired of having my GPS quit...and my radio going down..I got smart and hardwired both...no more messing around. I bought a cigarette lighter adaptor for my GPS..and since I have no cigarette lighter on board... :) ...I soldered it in permanent behind the dash. I can still just pull the GPS out by its velcro attachment strips..and simply unplug the cord. Its all hidden behind the dash.

The Vertex handheld just took a trip to Radio Shack for a plug that fits into the external power port..and then I just wired this into the panel as well.

There will be no more "LOW BATTERY" displays showing in my pictures. :)

[LARRYEBOYER]

here is a better look at the keel. Yes this is a standard RAF kit that I modified the keel. I stepped it 6 inches and dropped the engine mount 7 inches. That gives me 1 inch prop clearance. According to Don Parham, I should be within 4 inches of clt. I also brought the Horizontal stab into the prop blast. It should be a nice improvement for the RAF. It is easy to do. Could be done as a weekend project. time will tell with the flight tests.

[Harry_S.]

Stan;

We should have had this thread while you were still building. I hardwired my radio (Icom handheld) thru a C/B, my Sigtronics Intercom, the heater and a cigarette lighter as well. I also wired in 2 extra spare breakers, I don't know why, but they're available.

I'm sure that future RAF builders will benefit from our present input.

Speaking of RAF owners/drivers, why don't you all join in? We all have something in common, and no bashing/ belittling is allowed here.

[davreich]

Hi Larry,
Looks great!! Is that a Bad Stab? Also, after watching and flying RAFs I'm concerned about the side plates on the first keel angle change. I think the plates might tear from the middle top. I'm not sure what to do, but keep that in mind during initial flights.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Well Harry :

I'm an RAF owner, and am completely re designing mine.

So you don't want any negative comments in this little group huh?

Hmmmmmm.

Maybe it would be best for me to just read. :D

Chuck E.

[StanFoster]

I was out in my RAF today and was practising steep descents. I was at a safe altitude and then would cut the thottle and bring the airspeed back to 30 mph. I am simulating an engine out and coming in to a tight place. My purpose of these practice sessions today was to determine what my minimum altitude above the ground should be when I start picking up my airspeed for a nice landing.

I set this up by cutting the throttle back...maintaining 30 airspeed...and then wathcing my GPS altimeter as it goes through an even hundred foot figure. I would then immediately lower the nose and gaining airspeed to 50 mph. Then the flare would be executed all the while watching the altimeters readout and making it stop at full back stick. I basically was landing at altitude. My worst recovery loss was 230 feet. Most were around 215 to 220 feet. I did do one landing with a loss right at 200 feet.

This kind of ties into my comment in another post about altimeter settings. Most of my flying is down low over this super flat terrain that surrounds me for 50 miles. I dont want to be cyphering these critical altitudes should I find myself trying to make a tight landing.

Here is a picture showing the descent I setup.

[ben]

cccccccccccccccccc

[CLS447]

Dave R. , Happy Birthday! That is a BAD STAB on Larry B.'s experimental RAF. It is the one that was replaced by the ULTIMATE STAB on his completed RAF. I think I liked the name "STINGRAY" better. Does anyone know why Larry M. changed it?

Chuck E. , I am sure that constructive criticism is welcome. As long it is done tastefully. So.......what's on your mind?

[asmuzsr]

Harry
Do you have your Icom feeding off 12volts. If so it may not last long. They will tolerate 12 for a while but it won't last. Mine blew after 12 hours. Had to buy a new one. Then I went to Radio Shack and got an auto accessory adapter. Plugs into the cig. lighter and drops the volts down to 9 volts. The radio will last much longer.

Tony
N267A

[StanFoster]

Tony: I am assuming you meant the advice for the Icom for me. I wired mine in to 12 volts...so I will consider changing the voltage. Thanks.

[asmuzsr]

Hi Stan
Wasn't sure who it was, but glad to be of help. I was told by an Icom tech you could go up to 12 volts and you would be ok. Sure wish I had gotten his name so he could have paid for a new radio.

Tony
N267A

[Harry_S.]

Tony:

Just got back from B/D's. Tired and regusted. Will try to answer.

Mind mind is not with it right now, but;

I wired all individual circuits thru circuit breakers. I cannot recall right now what amp. CB I have on the radio, but I think it may be a 2 amp. I will check if I fly tomorrow and let you know. Whatever power it is, it does the job, as it's been wired in for almost 6 yrs. and still perkin'.

All my circuits are off a 12 volt buss. I still have the kit supplied alternator and no problems. I had to replace the battery just last week. Got almost seven years out of that one, believe it or not.

[Harry_S.]

Chuck:

Come on now, you're welcome because it's for RAF owners. Every one here, so far, is a happy *camper* with their RAF. I think we all want it to be a positive thread and a postive intelligent and informative exchange between us.

To date, on this thread, we have seen enthusiasm that is making me feel so good. Larry and Stan are really contributing to this early success of the thread. Have you noticed; we all have horizontal stabs?

So, join us on the positive note. I wish *all* RAF owners will come onboard and exchange good tips (as well , no strike that.) There are hundreds of RAF owners out there and only 4 or 5 have shown up. Come on guys, join us!!!

Chuck, we really want this to be a positive experience and a positive exchange of good information. Relax, clue us in on your ideas.

What do you think of Larrys' mod?

[StanFoster]

Harry...or anyone....I do have a little gripe about my RAF. It seems that on a high speed taxi, the nosewheel will shimmy a little. I have tightened the springs up and have the 3/4 inch play at the bottom as the manual says. Is there any type of damper I could put on it?

[StanFoster]

Harry: I know of three other RAF pilots here in Illinois. They ALL were a major influence to me deciding on getting one myself. I will see if I can get them on here sometime.

I have no regrets whatsover with my RAF choice. I would buy another one without hesitation.

[KenSandyEggo]

Stan, try letting a little air out of the nose wheel. It should have considerably less air pressure than the mains. Check the manual for the exact number, but I believe it's only 15 pounds. It worked for me once when I had a shimmy.

[StanFoster]

Thanks Ken...I will try that.

[Harry_S.]

Stan;

I've not had a shimmy in my nose gear. I like K.J., just had 15 psi in the tire.

Man, I'm tired. The wind just beat me somethin' fierce today and I was on the ground. Goin' to bed.

[PW_Plack]

Guys, if you connect a handheld radio to your gyro's electrical system, even if it's designed to run at 12 volts, you can have problems.

The normal voltage range of the system can vary from about 11 volts while starting to a little over 14 when cruising with a fully charged battery. 14 may be too much.

The other common problem is an AC component superimposed on the DC voltage reaching the handheld. It's caused by eletrical noise from the alternator, or kickback from the starter motor or ignition system. Larger radios usually have a primitive filter on the incoming power line, but handhelds leave it out to save cost, size and weight. This AC "noise" on the power lead can cause a high-pitched whine on transmit audio, and in some cases can scramble the microprocessor which controls frequency and other functions. The whine will be most noticeable when your battery is very low, system current load is high, or when the brushes on an automative-style alternator become worn.

If you know your handheld will run safely on 14-15 volts, solve the other problem by picking up one of the power line filters made for car stereos. I got one rated at 25 amps for about $20 at a Pep Boys a few years ago, and it drops incoming voltage only 0.2 volts under a 14-amp load, weighs less than a pound, and provides really clean DC. It would easily handle a radio, transponder and GPS with capacity left over. If you're worried about an in-flight failure, wire an SPST switch to short the input and output leads together, and you'll have a bypass available.

[Harry_S.]

Stan:

On your nose wheel shimmy. Have someone stand in front of your line as you taxi and see if you have any out of line wiggle. If you have a slight wiggle, higher speed would exacerbate it. Tire mounting; alignment; axle holes?

Three or four weeks back, I had several days when taxiing towards the runway I had a lopsided like roll on the main gear. I guess I could better describe it as crossing the speed bumps in a parking lot, at an angle.
I asked a friend to observe my ships main wheels as I taxied out. He signaled they looked good, as well as they felt smooth to me, at that time. On my return from flying, we discussed it. He made mention of the fact that we had a few cold nights during the span of days when I experienced the lopsided rolls. Apparently, the cold nights left a flat spot on the tires.

[StanFoster]

Ken I let some air out..and by gosh..that fixed it. Thanks :)

Harry ...thanks for the tip as well.

[KenSandyEggo]

You're welcome, Stan. I'll e-mail you my address to send the donation. :D I thought that I'd lighten the load on the nosewheel to make the steering lighter by adding some air, and the next time I went down the runway, I had a shimmy. Wasn't too hard for me to figure it out.

[asmuzsr]

You know I started talking about the voltage being to high with good intentions, but just remembered. During the time the radio went out my voltage regulator had gone bad and I wan't sure how long it was reading higher than normal. Guess I'm blessed I didn't fry anything else. Put in a new Key West and it has been ok ever since.
Soryy I got that all started. May have been for nothing, maybe not.

Tony
N267A

[LARRYEBOYER]

hey, Ken J.!!!! Good to see you back on the conference. How is your AAI conversion working for you. I always enjoyed hearing about your RAF flying experiences. I hope it isn't so stable now that it is boring you to death. Talk to me man!(PS. hope your are feeling better.)

[KenSandyEggo]

Hi Larry. Things are settling down.....sort of. David goes to a nursing home tomorrow and he's a little anxious, but not 10% of what his mom is. He's been in the hospital for almost 4 months. My stuff is O.K. with a yearly check scheduled.

Conversion is great. I basically finished school and have to wait for the State Boards. I'm doing a lot of put-off stuff as the panel instruments and my FI system. It flies great and steady. I sure like that bigger cabin and instrument pedestal on the new Sparrowhawk though.

[Harry_S.]

Hey y'all;

I'm back! My computer crashed last Sat. and just got it fixed and running yesterday. Lost practically everything, including my favorites and address book. I did find a couple addresses written down and sent for assistance. Thanks guys.

Larry, after drooling over the pics of your new machine, I got concerned about the height of your rudder; rotor clearance, specifically. Is the tip the same height off the ground as the original? Is the rudder the same distance back as the original?

[LARRYEBOYER]

It's amazing how a keel change can change the appearance of the RAF.The tail wheel and the flying feathers are in the same location amd heigth as the original design. Someone posted about the stregnth of the keel at the first bend. The plates are 3/8 inch tempered aluminum with 4 an bolts and 16 stainless steel rivets. The keel was never cut completely through. A wedge was cut out and the keel was bent to the desired degrees. It is apsolutely!!! as strong or stronger than the original uncut keel.

[LARRYEBOYER]

One other thing. I checked with the boss(me) and he said take off the day! It is a beautiful day in PA. It is about 9:00am. I am going flying. Have a good day!!!

[Harry_S.]

Larry;

Thanks for your reply. I can rest easy now. You're right, it does look different from the original.

I stirred up a little air today also. CAVU all day and not windy at all, about 4-5 kts., if that. Thermals were real good today. At one time I was maintaining 50 mph @ altitude and 3750 rpm. A beautiful day in north central Fl.

Later

[cgmg]

Ken,

I'm also glad to see you back with us. You were one of the RAF pilots who helped me convince my wife we shouldn't be buying an RAF. She was in love with their machine, ever since we took some lessons with Duane Hunn. Once I got her to read all the trials and tribulations you went through, after being a gung-ho proponent, she understands there are some major concerns with their machines.

Right now we are getting by with our single place Air Command, but are going to take some flight time with an AAI machine at Mentone this summer. I took a demo flight with Terry Eiland at Oshkosh last year, and was impressed with his machine. In fact, I was impressed with everyone related to AAI who was there that day. It was interesting to see that AAI grounded all their machines until the patchy fog cleared, even though they had riders waiting, but RAF machines continued to fly. My fixed wing pilot friend even commented on the difference in attitudes between the two companies, and he knows little of the history of RAF machines.

I met Stan Foster at one of our club's fly-ins last fall, and consider him an excellent person to emulate when it comes to flying gyros. This makes me willing to re-consider an RAF, if set up exactly the way his is, with the Parham stab. I am looking forward to seeing his machine when he flies over to my airstrip this year. Hopefully, I can get my wife to be there.

Kind of rambling here, my main point was it's good to have you back with us. I hope someday to get to meet you also.

[StanFoster]

Mark: Thanks for the comment......I am very pleased with my RAF. I flew with my doors off for the first time today. Mark...you know how windy it was today....I took my 270 pound son Jeff up,,,full load of fuel and we flew southwest to show him a huge Mansion that was only 18 miles away. My airspeed was 75....my ground speed was 40-42. Needless to say..on the way back my ground speed was over 100. I was able to stick my camera out the door opening and capture two guys having fun. Jeff is still a tad nervous but he was really loving the flight.

[StanFoster]

another view

[KenSandyEggo]

Stan, does he still think that the thin piece of Fiberglas he's holding onto will save him from something? You'll know he's relaxed when he lets go. That's the first sign. I had some nervous-Nellies that wanted to fly and were afraid when I made even a gentle right turn. I got a piece of aluminum tubing to fit across the door, drilled a hole at each end and pinnned it into the door rod-end at the front and one I screwed in at the back. You could probably bend it if you blew hard enough on it, but to them, it feels like a steel door next to them and they relax. I'll see if I can find a pic to post.

Hey Mark, where's El Paso, IL again? Is it near Morris or anywhere that way from Chicago? I lived in Chicago until about 20 years ago and often flew my Ercoupe to Morris to visit (former) in-laws.

[KenSandyEggo]

Here's a pic of "Singing Stefanos" and my "psycho-bar." (patent pending :rolleyes: ) "Psycho" stands for psychological.

[StanFoster]

Ken: Shes a cutie.....Jeff was hanging on...where do you think my left arm was? Hanging on to the axle :eek: Actually I was very nervous taking those pictures....nervous I was going to drop my camera. :eek:

Stan

[KenSandyEggo]

"She?" I hope you mean my gyro. If Stefanos hears of this, he'll have to kick your butt. I'll assume you thought that you read "Stefanie," and for your sake, I won't tell him. He's 60 pounds of bottled TNT.

[Harry_S.]

It' gettin' to be fun now, on this thread.

Stan, it looks like your goin' to be the most active gyro man in Illinois. Ken J. is, in Calif.

[Harry_S.]

Hi RAF drivers;

My PC crashed last week and I lost a lot of *stuff.*

Gary K. sent me the address for his site for RAF owners, at my request. This is a very nice location for RAF info, if we help him out by providing it. Info such as replacement part numbers, tips, photos of your ships, etc.

Why not give it a visit and indulge!? http://home.att.net/~raf2000owners/

[cgmg]

Ken,

El Paso is just 15 miles north of the intersections of I-74 and I-55. The twin cities of Bloomington-Normal are encircled by the two interstates. We are just about the geographical center of the state of Ilinois.

From Morris, it would be about a 90 minute drive south on I-55 to the area I live in.

[KenSandyEggo]

Thanks, Mark. Now I know where it is.

[StanFoster]

Ken: I did read that as Stephanie ...sorry :eek:


I flew to a pancake and sausage fly-in today in Rantoul, Il. at the old Chanute Air Force base. Seems several hear were stationed there at one time.

[StanFoster]

downwind 18

[StanFoster]

parked in front of the air museum.

[birdy]

Gees Stan,do you ever get lost with that many runways???

[StanFoster]

Birdy: Its a big place for a gyro.... :D

Hey....still would love to see some of them cattle mustering roundups. :D

I bet you put the mooooooove on them herefords. :eek:

Stan

[Harry_S.]

HI YA'LL, I'M BACK.

In addition to a lot of happenings here at home base, my keyboard went on hiatus and I couldn't type...two finger variety...and couldn't post. I could lurk tho, and kept up pretty good. My computer guru decided I needed a new keyboard.

Till I get back and review most of the threads, the one that pops into mind right now was Stan's question on the pre-rotator belt tension.
I have all three belts; alternator, pre-rotator and the power drive all pretty tight. The belts as well as the pulley bearings have held in there for almost 400 hrs. I changed the rotator belt because I wasn't comfortable after it rolled back on itself, because of mis-alignment.

More later.

[StanFoster]

Harry: I changed my pre-rotator belt the other day. I just took the 6 bolts off and removed the whole propeller assembly. I was wanting to check the crankshaft support bearing..and the other bearing anyway. I have the upgraded crankshaft support bearing and all looked fine. I am running my pre-rotator belt much tighter now and I think it will last much longer now. I did recheck my prop pitch on each blade and nothing moved a bit.

[Harry_S.]

Alternator belt.

My experience:

Back in '98 with about 45 hrs. on the Hobbs meter, I went to fly one morning and during my pre-flight, one of the items I check is, I tug on the alternator belt. This time the belt and alt. moved about an inch or two. WOW... what's wrong? I moved to the other side of the engine and found the tension adj. arm attach bolt at the engine block snapped off flush at the block. The bolt head was still in the arm. No flying today.

Luckily, at that period of time, 2 A&P's had a small shop close by. As I didn't have the necessary tools to remove the broken stub, I asked an A&P to look at my problem and remove the stub if he could. He had a small R/A drill motor.

I got a cold soda from the machine in the lounge and as I was drinkin' and thinkin', the A&P came in the lounge and handed me the stub he took out. Took no more than 10 min. He used a L/H drill bit and as soon as it bit into the stub, it backed right out. Lucky me, it was a new installation and wasn't seized.

A machine bolt was used to anchor that arm to the engine block instead of the proper grip length bolt. I got the right grip bolt (8 mm. I think,) cut it to length and finished the job.

I would suggest that you all take the time to remove and check that bolt. If there are any threads into the hole of the arm, it's going to snap eventually and may be a bear to remove a seized stub.

You were wanting to tighten that alt. belt anyway.... right?

[birdy]

In regard to prerotor belts,on the RAF I bought, the belt kept turning insideout.I found out the two pullys wern't running parralell so I shimmed the prerotor clutch bracket to fix it and the belt insideouting stoped.But then the clutch bearing was always hot after every flight??It wasn't from clutch friction because it would still be hot after 2 hours flying,and the friction surfaces had plenty of clearance.I tryed different typs of grease,different belt tensions and new bearings but It would always be hot.

I used the same prerotor setup on the 914 and it never gets hot now???
Never did find out why it got hot on the EJ22.

[KenSandyEggo]

Several years ago, RAF changed the prerotator system by extending the clutch mechanism via an arm. Along with this mod was supposed to come a pulley with flanges. Some of us still got the old pulley without the flanges and I had the same problems as Birdy with the belt twisting and usually breaking quickly...usually on take-off. Get the flanged belt pulley if you don't have one. It does a much better job of keeping the belt straight and from twisting.

[Harry_S.]

I ordered and received the new flanged head when it first came out. I never did install it; it's still wrapped up and on a shelf in my spare parts cabinet. After I re-aligned into the proper grooves with a new belt, I've had no problems. I still use the original set-up. I think the tighter you can get the belt, the better. Some 3 or 4 years back at Bensen Days, I took a picture of a turnbuckle installed as a tensioner for the pre-rot. belt. The owner said it worked fine. I intend to install one someday.

With my original set-up, I start the rotator while taxiing just before turning to the runway. I also squeeze the handle "hard" and ERMP @ 1200-1300, as ERMP drops I add power to keep ERPM up about 1300 to also keep taxi speed up. With a wind of 3-5 mph, by the time I reach center-line, RRPM is close to 200 and I release the handle, cyclic back and play the power for take-off roll.
This is on hard surface. On grass I use a different technique. At my home base, I take-off on hard surface and land on the grass. The best of both worlds, I think.

[StanFoster]

Harry: I have the turnbuckle on my pre-rotator belt. I realigned the pulleys a tad and am running it much tighter now. The turnbuckle easily sets the desired tension and keeps it there.

Stan

[KenSandyEggo]

Here are the numbers of the air filter element that came with the carb on the RAF:

The original, with no name or markings is a Baldwin #PA634. I doubt if you'll find it anywhere except the Grainger Farm Store in Kindersley. That's where I was told they got them.

The K&N is #E3310. I've never seen one and I would have the old one in hand to make sure they match if you want to go K&N.

The NAPA is #2110 and is the one that I used until I got rid of the carb.

[CLS447]

Ken, 2110 is the # I cross referenced in the K&N catalog. I ordered a K&N E2550. I also checked the dimensions in their book & that was the closest they had, but I am worried that it will be wrong because the Baldwin PA634 that came with my airbox has 2 different flange sizes.

If it is wrong I will check out your # & try again. I really hate those throw away paper filters. Didn't you know you can get 100hp more if you use a K&N! Yeah, right!

I do like them better though.

[birdy]

Stan mate,was look'n through thousands of photos lastnight and these are the best I could find :( .Bit crappy I know but I'll carry a camera over the next couple o munths to try to get some more better ones. :)
These pix were taken a few years ago while "yarding" a mob of around 800 head.

[Harry_S.]

Chris:

Another number for the air filter is:

Car Quest No. 87110.

I've been using this number for several years now. I think they cost less than the others and are of good quality.

[Harry_S.]

Harry: I have the turnbuckle on my pre-rotator belt. I realigned the pulleys a tad and am running it much tighter now. The turnbuckle easily sets the desired tension and keeps it there.

Stan




Did you install the turnbuckle or did it come with the kit?

Do you also have the flanged pulley?

I believe you solved your pre-rotator belt problem.


Harry

[StanFoster]

Harry: I have the flanged pulley and the turnbuckle was an idea passed along to me.

[CLS447]

Ken, my K&N filter came in today, I used all the right numbers for cross reference & it did not fit. The # you gave,E-3310, according to the measurement chart, should be right. I'm sorry for ever doubting you! I'll let you know when I get it. The Baldwin original actually has 2 flange dimensions & the 3310 has 1, the smallest one. So the top will not completely fill the upper hole ,but the lid should seal it. Thanks for your help!

[Harry_S.]

For what it's worth:

I had to remove the wheel pant twice. Once to repair a flat and once to replace a broken Chinese wheel bearing.
When I re-installed the pant the first time I figured it was too much hassle to install that rear bolt, washer and nut. There had to be an easier way.

The second time, I removed both pants and incorporated my change.

At each bolt hole in the wheel fairing, I installed a 1/4- 28 *floating* anchor nut on the inside surface and a 1/4" SS fender washer on the outside surface. Installed with pop rivets.

Have removed the pants several times since and it's fast, no fuss and you only need a ratchet wrench.

[Harry_S.]

For what it's worth:

At Bensen Days '99, I checked all the RAF's for the rear rod end, holding the alternator. Mine had snapped a couple weeks earlier. In talking to the owners, I found that all had at sometime replaced that rear rod end. Some were using extra jam nuts on the shank, to help strengthen it.

What I did was to use a 3/8" Gr.8 bolt as an axle, thru the rod ends and the lugs of the alternator. Also used the idea of extra jam nuts on the rod end shaft.

The only tricky part is adjusting the rod ends so that the axle aligns the alternator pulley with the crank pulley.

[KenSandyEggo]

I've had a single bolt on mine for years and that stopped the cracking. Buying rod-ends that cost more than 98 cents probably helped too. I didn't crank mine down too tight, and like I said, it's been crack-free for years.

[Harry_S.]

That's the way to do it, Ken.

[Harry_S.]

In looking at Larry Boyers' new photos, it reminded me of a modification I would do, if I ever build another RAF.

I have skinned some knuckles on my right hand over the years when pulling on the rotor brake, after landing. Any of you guys with long legs and big hands will probably know where-of I speak.

My mod would be to put the rotor brake handle on the right hand side of the keel.

Comments?

[StanFoster]

Harry: I broke my original break handle right where the lock bolt hole is drilled. So..I made a new one out of iron and I have it bent away from the trim wheels. It works great and I can pull harder on it than with the aluminum one.

Stan

[Aussie_Paul]

The idea is to make the new handle quite a bit longer. That gets your hands up and away from the "hand/finger jamming area", and also gives you the leverage required without straining muscles.

I would like to have the brakes independantly hand operated for a tighter turn radiius when required. I have seen a pic somewhere a few years ago where this had been done. The fact that you have to take your foot of the rudder pedal to apply the brake is a rediculous design fault.

I think that Duane has his right brake engaging before the left one. This is so that when taxiing, and needing some braking, Duane can apply left steering with his left foot and stear right by applying brake with his right foot. A cunning way to do it BUT should not require having to do it!!!!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul.

[Harry_S.]

Stan: You must be muscle bound! Breaking the handle off?? Just joshin'.

Is your new handle bent in-board and up? Flat stock? Possible to post a pic of it?
I presently use a 6 in. piece of square steel tubing that I slip on the handle for leverage. It lays on the floor when not in use.


Paul: I have liked the idea of individual braking for the RAF, without it being a major mod job. Please post any pics you run across. Have you improved the braking system on your Firebird?

Anyone know the set-up on the Sparrow Hawk, or have any ideas that could be of interest to hundreds of RAF owners, regarding the braking system!?

[KenSandyEggo]

If I need to make a sharp turn, I use my individual braking that came with the kit. Just reach down and yank up on one of the brake cables, depending which way you want to turn. She'll turn on a dime with no complexities.

[Harry_S.]

Skinny guys with no belly can do that. I can't get over that far, especially with shoulder straps applied.

[KenSandyEggo]

Let's see........tie a rope to each cable and keep the other ends in your lap? You'll only need to turn while taxiing, so leave the shoulder straps off and just use the lap belt when leaving and hook up the shoulder straps in the runup area. On return, just disconnect the belts momentarily if you need to make a sharp turn. Or, sew elastic strips into your shoulder straps so they will stretch when you lean over......aaah, skip that last one.

[Aussie_Paul]

Ken, you should not have to take a foot of the rudder pedals to brake.
:( :rolleyes:

If and when I get Firebird up and running!!!I know, I know, my big mouth over promissed!!!! :o we have designed a toe operated braking system. :D

Aussie Paul.

[rfi]

I have been at the Seminole, OK airport for the past two days helping a customer install an EFI system on his carbureted RAF. He was also taking training with Duane Hunn who is located there.

After finishing up with the job Duane offered to give me a ride in his ship equipped with the Stabilator and I concurred. I have flown in a number of RAF 2000 gyros and was never able to keep them straight and level because I didn't get enough time to become proficient. I did fly Pat McNear's horizontal stab equipped RAF twice and it flew like a Cessna.
When we took off there was a thunderstorm in the distance which moved in very quickly and created some pretty gusty weather. After taking off and leveling out, Duane trimmed the ship and let me have the stick.

I was pleasantly surprised at the difference between the stock ship and Duane's ship with the Stabilator. The controls were fairly stiff at 60-80 mph and the stiffness increased with speed, just like an airplane.

The ship is still unstable but I was able to keep it pretty much straight and level even though it was getting pretty gusty. I don't think I could have handled a stock RAF without the Stabilator under those conditions. My gyro flying experience (if you call it that) during the past year was a brief ride in two different AAI stabilized RAF 2000 gyros---Jim Mayfield's and Terry Eiland's ships. I was just handed the controls for maybe five minutes after takeoff and gave control of the ship back to the pilots for landing.

Duane let me do a takeoff and landing after the initial evaluation. That was the first takeoff experience in an RAF 2000 and I was surprised by the torque roll after the wheels left the ground.

It was starting to get real gusty and Duane took the controls so he could demonstrate what it was like when the throttle was suddenly "chopped" to idle power from a high power setting and a speed of 70 or so Mph. The nose started to come up for just a fraction of a second and then gently nosed down. The Stabilator must be doing something.

I think the Stabilator is a good trim system and does add some stability to the ship. the most important thing is that the gyro can easily be trimmed for hands-off flight at about any speed up to 105 Mph and the faster you go the stiffer the joystick gets.

I think the RAF still needs a horizontal stabilizer and I told Duane so. He and I agree to disagree, but he did say that he was working on another idea. We go way back---he soloed me in 1989 in a Parsons Trainer.

It looks like the Stabilator may be available for other gyroplanes and I would certainly get one for any ship that I would be flying at top speeds of 70-100 Mph.

[StanFoster]

Don: I have never riden in a stabilator equipped RAF...but that stab that you make that is on my RAF more than satifies my needs. I have no problems in any kind of wind..with and without the doors on. Nice job on your design as those winglets are doing their job. :)

Stan

[StanFoster]

Ken: I never thought of pulling the cables. I am always making turns to the left as it doesnt turn to the right very well.

[Aussie_Paul]

Turning to the right in a Raf can be helped by starting to pre rotate as you turn.

Aussie Paul.

[KenSandyEggo]

"Turning to the right in a Raf can be helped by starting to pre rotate as you turn."

I tried that Paul, but replacing 3 hangar rat's car windshields was too expensive. The flag pole wasn't too bad. Pipe is cheaper than glass.

[Harry_S.]

Larry Boyer:

What have you been up to? Have not heard from you in a while. Been working on the new RAF, flying the old one, or a bit of both!? I'm sure some, besides me, are really interested in your new project.

Any new pics?

Cheers

[Harry_S.]

Just completed the 25 hr. chore.

I tried a couple experiments...deviations...if you will, on the PR system. One didn't pan out. The other one I will fly tommorow.

As I mentioned here, or on another thread, I have replaced the inner PR cable twice, in 375 hrs. because they "fractured" or "shredded"; for want of a better word. Anyway, they didn't work anymore.

This time I even swapped ends of the outer sheath. Today, I moved that black cable sheath constraint, up 4 1/8 in. from it's former location, to just under the lower 2x2 mast stiffener. This move gives quite a bit of radius relief to the PR cable as it bends up to the Bendix. Will check it out tommorow and post the results.

[Harry_S.]

Hi;

Flew today and what a nice day it was. Had a gulley washer last evening and the air and sky were crystal clear this morning, no wind and very few clouds.

I had put masking tape on the PR sheath, at areas I thought there may be interference problems. I looked at the sheath after landing and no marks on the tape at all.

I made only one take-off today, so, will only give an evaluation on it.

There was no wind but there was a very slight cross breeze. I started the PR as usual on taxiing, before turning to the runway...and it seemed that the PR start-up was a bit easier, feel wise, than usual. PR remained engaged as I turned onto centerline, the Rotor Tach showed 207 rpm. I released the PR handle and lost 50 rpm while powering up to 3500 ERPM. I thought this was pretty good considering there was no wind.

I think the change made in the sheath constraint, allowing a better radius on the cable, will make it easier on the inner cable and maybe improve the PR rrpm for take-off.

Will post more after more evaluation.

Cheers

[StanFoster]

Harry: Good results...207...that is excellent. Now I am going to be looking my cable over. :)


Stan

[Harry_S.]

Hi ya'll:

Been thinkin' over what Ken is trying and what Stan has been getting on his PR, rpm wise. Except for the problems I've had with the inner cable, I really have had no problem getting good rpm out of the PR.

Other than Ken, Stan, Larry and myself, we haven't had much input on the RAF PR.

What kind of eng. rpm are you using for pre-rotation? How are you applying pressure on the PR grip? Let's hear how you do it.

My method: I usually start p-r while taxiing @ 1250 rpm. I start with a firm grip on the handle. After about 3 rrpm, the eng. rpm drops to about 900. I feed enough throttle to get the eng. back to around 1300 and give a little more grip on the handle. As I near the runway edge, I increase throttle to no more than 1700 and really squeeze the handle hard. Usually at this point the rrpm is around 140-150 and building up fast. When I turn onto centerline...rrpm is around 200 or better...I tweak in a little throttle and release the grip at the same time. My nosewheel is off the ground at this point and I have to play the cyclic and rudder pedals to correct for the torque. Depending on any wind speed, the rrpm will drop off 30-50 as I'm throttling up to 3500...nosewheel is still off the surface, tailwheel is on the surface...rrpm comes up real fast and as it hits 170, cyclic forward to lower the pitch and I balance on the mains...the throttle goes to 4000. When rrpm hits 200, I increase throttle to 5000-5200 and when ASI reads 40, I lift off and climb out.

I think that if you get more than 1700-1800 eng. rpm on the PR, you will get slippage. Grip it hard also.

At my 25 hr. scheduled maintenance, I remove the steel clutch plate and "hand mill" it on 250-300 grit paper on a hard flat surface. Criss-cross a few times to rough up the surface and it's like new. Give the clutch material a couple passes too.




Any questions on this method, please let me know. I don't see why you're not getting around 200 or better rrpm. It must be due to clutch slippage.

This method is on hard surface...grass requires a different method.


Cheers

[KenSandyEggo]

Another discovery....for me anyway. No matter how I adjusted my clutch cable, it always felt mushy and bottomed out on the stick handle with enough pressure. I went to a bicycle shop and bought a brake cable for a tandem bike. It's 1275 mm long. It's also stainless steel and pre-stretched. Has a nice barrel-nub on the end too. Cost 3-something. It was a smaller diameter than my original cable, but I used the same outer sheath. I adjusted it and when I grip the handle, it grabs almost immediately and I can apply heavy pressure. Of course, I had to experiment and bought a bicycle brake lever and installed that too. It's a little short to get good leverage, so I'll switch it out to the Harley or RAF lever and check it out, but the new cable really made a difference.

Harry, if you faced your plate with some brake/clutch material, I bet you'd get fantastic pre-rotation speeds. This is just a weird thing. I get speeds all over the place. Dennis, the guy who lent me his SC blades, gets 200 with no mods at all. I need to take another look at his gyro now that my eye is sharpened as to the prerotator.

[Walker]

Hey Everyone. I'm finally back. I guess I hung on to the rotorcraft.com conference until it died, and then never got caught up.

I just spent the last week training with Terry Davison, a retired Master Warrant Officer Aviator that now lives in Idaho. He and his wife used to live here in Olympia and they stayed with us for the week.

The weather wasn't as conducive to training as we would have liked, but we got some good training between weather systems.

Today, if I'd had some weight for the passenger seat, I was ready to solo. Every landing was good, and some were just awesome!

A couple of days ago though, things were a bit different. . .and let me tell you how glad I am to have a 2.5 instead of a 2.2. Before I tell you what happened, I need to back up a bit. See, Terry had me doing all my approaches at 65. Everything was cool until right at the end when I would have trouble during the flare - I would balloon up. Well, on one particular landing I ballooned up to about 12 feet and ended up there with zero airspeed. Terry firewalled the engine and that 2.5 actually flew us out of there. It was amazing! We taxied back to parking and went to lunch to calm down.

During lunch I happened to mention to Terry that my airspeed indicator indicates in knots. He snapped around and looked at me with his eyes wide open and his mouth agape. . ."That explains everything!" We figured out that we were doing about 78 mph for our approaches! No wonder we were ballooning up!

We changed the approach speed to 50-55 and solved the problem.

I'm planning on going over to Idaho next month to finish up. Just a few problems to iron out before I go. My radio doesn't seem to be putting out any signal. I can hear it with my handheld, but tower can't hear me, which limits flight to uncontrolled airports. I hope it's something simple. I'll try to get it over to the avionics guy in the next week or so. Also, I've got a small coolant leak from a fitting on the manifold. A quick trip to Subaru should fix that.

Ken, I'm interested in hearing more about the prerotator. After removing the glazing from mine I'm able to get to about 180 but it takes some time.

Walker Armstrong
a five year old newbie!

[KenSandyEggo]

Walker, sounds like it might be a loose or bad antenna connection. There are a lot of prerotator posts under "Rotorblades." I'll answer your message shortly.

[Harry_S.]

Addendum to #132 Most of you, as I do, start pre-rot. with full forward stick, I keep forward stick till I see 80, then I slowly bring it back as rrpm builds up. By the time I'm at 150, I have full aft stick and rrpm is building fast.

CAUTION: If you are turning onto the runway during this scenario and you have an appreciable wind, hold stick into the wind as you turn, to eliminate any rollover tendencies.

PS. In no way do I want to appear as condescending to all you experienced pilots. I try to pass info on my experiences, to you pilots, and maybe I get too detailed in trying to get to the newer builders and pilots in training. I hope you understand. :)


Cheers.

[Harry_S.]

Walker: Welcome, I posted before, or I thought I did. It didn't show up.

Anyway, a nice post from you and we are glad to see you here. I'm assuming you have an RAF, with a stab?

Keep us posted on your progress,OK?


Cheers.

[Gary_in_Orygun]

Walker, glad to hear you are back at it. I was wondering where you went. :)

[gyropilot]

I just spent the last week training with Terry Davison, a retired Master Warrant Officer Aviator that now lives in Idaho. He and his wife used to live here in Olympia and they stayed with us for the week.Walker,

Glad to hear you're back in the air again.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Fly safe,

John L.

[Udi]

CAUTION: If you are turning onto the runway during this scenario and you have an appreciable wind, hold stick into the wind as you turn, to eliminate any rollover tendencies.
I thought you were supposed to turn with the disc level to avoid gyroscopic rolling effects.

Udi

[Harry_S.]

Udi:

That's a go with a no wind scenario. With any appreciable wind, it's the same as with a fixed wing...stick, or yoke, INTO the wind.

[Walker]

To catch everyone up on my radio problem:

Last year we had some trouble getting tower to here us - took the gyro home and messed around with the wiring - found a loose wire in the headset plug in - fixed that and tested with my hand held - came in loud and clear, so I figured that the problem was solved.

This year we could not get tower to hear us again! (#$%##@), So we did all of our flying down at an uncontrolled airport.

I scheduled a time to get together with the local avionics guy last week. He put some magic device in the antenna cable and promptly reported that the radio wasn't transmitting at all. We took the radio out and put it on his bench for more testing. Sure enough, NADA, NOTHING, ZIP! He figured that I had blown "finals" and he was going to have to send the radio (A Terra TX 760) to Waco, TX for repair. He would call me the next day and let me know how much they said it would cost. Probably around $200.

His wife called around 11:00am the next day and said, "Tom fiddled around with your radio last night and he fixed it. He found a loose wire inside the radio, soldered it back in place and it works perfectly!" Call me a happy camper! I take the aircraft back on Tuesday to have the radio put back in and Tom is going to adjust the SWR to optimize everything.

Sometimes good things happen to ugly people!!!!

Walker

[Harry_S.]

That's bad news , topped by good news, Walker. Tomorrow is a good day.

Good to see you posting here. We need some company.

It's somewhat of a coincidence, 'cause today as I was flying...not at a controlled field, but I'm always airing my position anyway...I wasn't getting a side tone when I transmitted. After landing and taxi to the hangar, as I shut down and turned the radio off, I noticed a little of the co/ax shielding exposed, back of the compression nut of the connector. I just touched it and it came completely out of the conn. I didn't have time to fix it then, so I disconnected the cable and connectors from the radio and antenna and brought it home. It's now fixed and will be re-installed.

Let's hear some more from you, Walker. Good stuff and bad stuff. We should learn from both, the good and the bad.

Cheers :)

[jacksharp]

Glad to see this RAF forum going on.. I need all the help I can get hahahaha... Not sure what the rest of you think of the original brakes on the RAF but mine suck! Guess calling them brakes is a bit much hahaha..

What do you think of Cleveland brakes and wheels, and what model(s) would your recommend?

Thanks in advance,
Jack Sharp/RAF2000 Driver/Owner

[KenSandyEggo]

Jack, I find your sucky brakes weird. I have the original RAF brakes on mine with 450 hours and they still hold well over 2,000 rpm while I spin up. RAF must have goofed and acidentally put in some quality shoes laying (lying?) around. I did just notice a little squeeling a day or so ago, so maybe it's time to change them out. I really don't see the need for hydrauilic brakes on a gyro. We're almost stopped when we land and just need them to hold at the runup area.

[jacksharp]

Thanks Ken,

The brakes on my machine have ALWAYS been unacceptable. I can NOT hold during a runup no matter how hard I apply pressure, which like you stated is the main reason for brakes on a gyro anyways :) Maybe its time to dig a bit more into them and see what I can figure out...

[KenSandyEggo]

Work on it, Jack. I've just about re-invented the wheel with all my fiddling.

[Harry_S.]

Hi Jack:

Welcome to the forum. we would like all RAF men/gals to "come on in."

Ref. your brake "problems."

The original brake drums were press formed and consequently had out of round conditions. Later on, RAF did some machine work to the inside of the drum and it did improve on this o/r condition. I did buy a pair of the improved drums but have not installed them yet as I've fiddled with the adjustments on my original set and have them working pretty good.
If you contact me by e-mail, I can give you tips on what I fiddled with on my brakes. It would probably be too lengthy to post here.


HS.

PS Nice looking panel you have on your machine. What, or whose, stab do you have installed?

[Harry_S.]

Ken:

Your brake *squeak* is probably one of the Chinese wheel bearings breaking up. Been there...done that.


HS

[KenSandyEggo]

Awe kontrare, Harry. Those crapped a long time ago and I replaced them with good bearings. It sounds more like a brake squeel this time, but very minor. I can probably squeeze another 7.694 taxiing miles out of them.

[jacksharp]

Thanks guys for all the help. I will look into some adjustments and see what I can do. By the way, the H/S was designed by a friend of mine, and has worked great for a couple of years. Gary Brewer flew with it, and said it was one of the best he had ever flown with so that was good enough for me :) Harry, I will email you or you can email me at your convience at jd@jacksharp.com if you like. Any help would be greatly appriciated.. I need all the help I can get hahahaha

[Harry_S.]

Jack Sharp, how's it going!? Doin' any flying or puttin' in all your time working.

I don't think you've had time to work on your brakes yet but when you do let us know how it went.

I think most of us would like to know more about you and your RAF...like how many hours you have flown it; any problems; any mods; more pictures...etc.


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

I've been house-bound for about 10 days with a bad back. Got to go flying this week a couple times...to relax the soft tissue. Felt real good.

I have found the p/r to be working real well; better than ever. I consistently get between 190 and 200 rrpm @ 1700-1800 erpm. Still I lose 35-40 rrpm when I release the p/r and immediately go to 3500 erpm, but regain rrpm real fast.

I have the KJ stab...(heavy, but very effective)...and my ship rocks back onto the tail wheel @ 170 rrpm and 3500. At 170 rrpm, power goes to 4000 and at 200 rrpm, throttle forward and liftoff at 40 mph. With maybe a 5 mph wind I'm guessing a ground roll of about 200-250 ft. till lift-off. Really nice!!!

I have also been fiddlin' with the rotor shake. Making real good progress here, also.


Cheers :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Harry, don't let the pre rotator go untill you are moving. With a bit of practice you don't lose any rrpm.

Aussie Paul. :)

[KenSandyEggo]

Paul, there is also the risk of turning the clutch material into toast. I held mine too long and it was fried. I have some personal things going on right now, but shortly I'll have the hydraulic actuator functioning and I'll try it with just 3 new pucks, then the other plate covered in material. If the 3 new pucks work fine alone, then that will be it and burn-up is held to a minimum. The 2 fully faced plates were too much as to heat when trying to hold the clutch in longer.

[Harry_S.]

Paul:
I am rolling before I turn toward the runway, I then engage the p/r...I'm at 150 rrpm before I turn on the center-line, erpm at 1700-1800, at max. rrpm (190+)...and rolling down C/L, I release p/r and throttle up to 3500; when rrpm is back to 200, I throttle up to 4000 and play the cyclic and throttle for lift-off at 40 indicated.

With a slight wind I break ground in 250-300 ft. I'm very happy with this procedure and have been using it for 6 yrs., with the original clutch material.
I can't visualize releasing the p/r and not losing ANY rrpm... with this RAF p/r.

[birdy]

Ken,
I'v only used the standard 3 f..,oops,puck clutch on the 914,and when I have to git off short,I'm choke'n the clutch leaver till I'm balancing on the mains,on full engine rpm.
Usualy let it go with about 270/300 rrpm..............GENTLY.

Am still on the origional clutch [400 plus hours].Only need to deglaze the pressure plate every 100 hours or so.

[Aussie_Paul]

Geez Birdy, I am in the air less that 270 rrpm. What do the AK blades spin at cruise, say 55kts? They are 28' I think you said. Also to save me researching posts, how much lighter is your Raf with the 914? Ta.

Aussie Paul.:)

[birdy]

Normaly cruise at 330/355,depending on the air and weight with the 28' AK's.
If I hold the prerotor on,on both machines,till I'm about to break ground,and hit full throttle from the start of the roll,I can git off very short.[The AK's will lift off under 270 too,but if I'v the room to git the rrpm up,I'll hold it down.]

Just chang'n the engine over ,I lost bout 70kg.

[quadrirotor]

Birdy, can you post detailed photos of your RAF (with rotax)...would be very appreciated...thanks.

[birdy]

Will do Andre,but it'll have to wate till the wife gits back from town coz I don't know jack sh.t about how to post pix.

[quadrirotor]

Roger, thanks Birdy.

[jacksharp]

Jack Sharp, how's it going!? Doin' any flying or puttin' in all your time working.

I don't think you've had time to work on your brakes yet but when you do let us know how it went.

I think most of us would like to know more about you and your RAF...like how many hours you have flown it; any problems; any mods; more pictures...etc.


Cheers :)
Hello Harry and gang, sorry for the delay in getting back, but work has really been getting in the way of my fun :) I had the weekend worked out (or so I thought) Was going to get up early Sat morning and get to the hanger before it got hot, finish installing my new fuel shutoff valve, fuel lines, and seat re-mounted, add some fuel, and walla... take her up for a spin, but NO!!! Wife decides to get a new puppy and of course she has to work today hahaha so I am baby sitting the new dog, and its Sunday morning, so if things go well, next weekend I should get her back in the air. After that, I am going to finish her 125 hour, so may be on the ground a bit longer hahahaha... When I got her she had 12 hours so the rest I have put on her, and the only problems I have had are minor ones (like the pre-rototar cable pulling apart :), and on occassion right after landing she quits, but able to restart her again. My thought on that might be carb float or something. I will be working on this problem during my 125 hour. Well I am sure I have talked everyones ears off by now, so will shut up until next time. Not sure if I mentioned it, but you can see photos and info on one of my sites at www.gyroflight.com

Thanks again for all the help and I will let you know how the brake work goes...

JD

[Harry_S.]

Hi Jack:
I guess we were all glad to hear from you. You sure you can get all that work done and fly in one day? It would take me a day and more to just re-mount the seat tank, those aft nuts are a bitch...for me, anyway.

I haven't heard of anyone other than you and me having the p/r cable come apart. I'm on my third one now. This time when I replaced it, I tinkered with some things to maybe better the situation. Right now, it seems to be *working* a lot easier than before. Hopefully, this one will last a lot longer than the other two.

I'm no engine man but I tend to go along with your assessment of it being in the carby. Maybe a mechanic will jump in here, with an opinion. Keep in touch, Jack.

Do you know what Kit No. your machine was?

Cheers :)

[birdy]

A simple question from a SCG.
In the RAF kits,do they supply trim springs or do you have to sorce them your self.If so what do they recommend???

I havn't forgoten the pix Andre,just havn't got round to it yet.

[Harry_S.]

Birdy:

RAF supplied the springs in my kit. Don't know what they do now. Can't complain about the springs as they've held up so far and don't show any signs of corrosion.

Have'nt seen that length/diameter spring at Pep Boys either. Ken J. I believe changed his springs some time back, maybe he can come in here and divulge what size and where he got 'em.

[Harry_S.]

I found a note, to myself, among some stuff, to answer a query from Stan. I don't recall where he posted it, so I will post my reply here, as I'm sure Stan will read it.

I think his query was, as to what extra "stuff" to check for at the 100 hr. maintenance.
I think, if you complete and check off all the items on the 25, 50, 100, 200 and 500 hr. maint. sheets, you're pretty well covered.

In addition to these check sheets; at every 50 hrs. I install new plugs and a new distibutor cap and rotor. It's maybe not needed, but it's peace of mind to me.
Plugs I use are NGK BKR 6E and a Conrad F2110G distributor cap and rotor.

If you use your p/r a lot, I would recommend you not forget to flip-flop that inner cable. I believe that's what tore up my first cable. I didn't reverse end for end for maybe 150-200 hrs., as it was working pretty good and then...it shredded. I don't know what caused the second one to shred...maybe inner damage to the outer sheath. This last replacement; I flipped the outer sheath, putting the old lower bend area at the upper straight run. Make sense?


Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

I got my replacement spring at Home Depot. All I can recall is that I went to shorter, firmer ones. With the originals, I had to crank the roll all the way right or left, depending whether I was solo or had a passenger. The pitch change took a lot of spins of the trim wheel also. With the replacement springs, adjustments are a lot more direct, with just 1 turn or less between solo and loaded.

[birdy]

The reason I asked was coz I didn't build it and the springs were very "heavy".Obviosly they need to be to give the required counter force for the offset.But when I changed to extr alu blades,the offset needed alot more tension,so,instead of applying even more compression to the control rods,I added another heavy single spring from the torque tube to the mast as on a single seat.This spring applys most of the corrective pressure to the offset,with only "trimming" pressure applyed by the origional springs.

But they were still the "heavy" springs and stick pressure left and right had to be strong coz I was pushing against the heavy trim springs. :mad:
The other day a light bulb went "bing" between me ears. :rolleyes:
I changed the adjustable springs with much softer/lighter springs and it's turned the RAF stick pressure to a much lighter control. :)

To change from a 90 degree left bank to a 90 degree right bank took an "Arny's" arm. :mad:

Now,I can go from 90 left to 90 right with only my nose picker and thumb on the stick :D ......in less than a second.Much lighter in the mouth.Almost as light as the ferel. :p

[Harry_S.]

Makes sense, Birdy. Good show!!



Cheers.

[rmcfly]

A friend of mine and others are putting together an RAF Pilots Association and there is a web site to go along. Anyone interested in checking it out is more than welcome. We are hoping gyro enthusiasts will submit their stories and experiences with their gyros. Feel free to send pictures of your machine, there will also be areas for selling parts and merchandise. Take a minute to check it out at www.rafpilots.com

[KenSandyEggo]

From the RAF Pilots Association site:

"Dave introduced me to CEO Don LeFleur, a legendary figure amongst gyro pilots."

Bwaaaaahaaaaaahaaaaaahaaaaaa!.....times 2. It also mentions how horizontal stabs are unnecessary and features Hunn and Logan. The Ask First Society in a new set of clothes. The clothing may be different, but the bull**** is the same. :rolleyes:

[Chuck Roberg]

Russ, nice looking site.

On the main page Duanne Hunn is listed as being located in Michigan. I thought he was instructing in Oklahoma. Could you update me on where he is instructing. I had someone last night ask me about him.

Thanks,

[Aussie_Paul]

Hey Ken, legendary for what, I wonder??????? Stubborn, pig headed, wayward with the truth etc??? Answer= all of the above and more!!!!!!!

But I must say, that when I still was part of the RAF team, and attended Bensen Days 1999, that Don and Linda really looked after and were very hospitable to my mother, my brother Lin and myself. A shame it could not have continued. :)

Aussie Paul.:)

[rmcfly]

Chuck,

As I undestand, Duann will be doing his training somewhere in northern Indiana. I believe they will be closing the Oklahoma training facility and are going to be looking for a location a little more urban.

[KenSandyEggo]

"......are going to be looking for a location a little more urban."

Why don't they try Tripoli?

[Harry_S.]

The other day I joined up with the RAF Pilots...www.rafpilots.com. I do believe this will be a site to enjoy and be of benefit to RAF pilots. Of course the more members they have will affect the input and quality of discourse among the many RAF drivers out there.

You have to be a member to get inside. There is a lot to be gained thru members input...(photos, articles, video etc.)...and is earnestly solicited. I understand this site is for RAF pilots and has no connection with RAF Marketing, so there won't be any RAF bashing.

My thinking is this...Who knows better how an RAF flies, than a guy who flies an RAF?...NOBODY!!!

So, check out the site to see what will be available. You won't be privy to everything inside unless your a member, but there is a lot more to be had, in addition to a monthly newsletter. :D


Cheers :)

[quadrirotor]

What's the differences with:
http://home.att.net/~raf2000owners/home.htm

[KenSandyEggo]

Harry, if you read everything carefully, it pooh-poohs the horizontal stab, claims that Don is "a legend amongst gyro pilots," like he's even a pilot, and somehow, the last of the "Ask-Firsters" are prominently there. Don't tell me it has nothing to do with RAF, whose logo is prominently displayed at the top of the main page. If they have no connection with RAF, why is no criticism of RAF allowed? Sounds like a sweetheart deal to me. It won't be a benefit to RAF pilots if they adhere to the "stabs are gadgets" line. It'll wind up getting another newbie killed as long as they keep their heads in the sand. As far as I can see, it's strictly a P.R. gimmick for RAF. What better place to get good, solid technical info than here?

[StanFoster]

Harry: I just signed up. I e-mailed Jim for getting my password etc. As soon as I can log on....I will.... :)

Stan

[Harry_S.]

Ken: if you don't want to join the RAF PILOTS...don't join. No one's forcing you to.

I joined and once inside I see pictures of stabbed RAF's. I haven't looked at everything yet but so far I see no reference to RAF Marketing. They may be listed in the Parts Supply and they should as well be listed, as they are a source for parts. As more owners join up maybe more replacement part sources will be added; I hope so.

I'll look for the blurb you ref. on LaFleur. I'm not ignorant of what's gone on since I bought my kit, so, if I find something that is, in fact an error, I'll make mention of it to Jim West.


Cheers :)

[Gary_in_Orygun]

The web site I started putting together (http://home.att.net/~raf2000owners/ )
is free, and I attempted to make it unbiased (bashing kept to just facts/opinions, not emotions).

As people send me stuff, I still would update it (like the for sale page and man-and-machine page.)

Since I also manage the PRA 73 club web site and PRA 73 newsletter (in addition to time spent with another volunteer organization I belong to), my raf2000owners site has not been seeing up-to-date action.

I also purused the new RAF owners web site and noted an RAF-party-line flavor. As long as people are also on this conference in addition to the new web site, they will get the whole story rather than just one side. Talking about people's RAF experiences are fine and the pictures and stories were nice. But people still have to come here (or elsewhere) to balance out the RAF stance on stabilizers.

[Aussie_Paul]

Good post Gary. I must visit your site more often. Not enough hours in a day!!!!

Aussie Paul.:)

[KenSandyEggo]

Harry, open your eyes and look at the top left corner of the main page. Whose large logo is that prominently displayed? Hint: It's not Home Depot.

Take a pill and relax Harry (Paxil is good). I know I don't have to join, no one is trying to force me to and I have no intention of doing so. I will always pipe up though when I smell B.S., like from the old Ask First Society and what appears to me to be a direct clone. Anyone that prints that ridiculous crap about Don being a legend amongst gyro pilots has absolutely no credibility whatsoever, IMO.

[rmcfly]

Hey Ken,

This is not RAf's site, it is our site, "RAF Pilots". The quote in the article you keep refering to was not written by us, just posted on the site. This site is for RAF pilots and any other gyro pilot to get together and share their experiences. The last thing I want is to listen to someone constantly try to pick this site apart.

Russ

[StanFoster]

Russ: I just joined and logged on tonight. Looks like a nice site...and I see a few names there that helped me make my decision to buy my RAF.....one decision I do not regret :)


Stan

[KenSandyEggo]

"The last thing I want is to listen to someone constantly try to pick this site apart."

Then you'll have to quit coming to this site, Russ, and reading posts. With all due respect, what you do not want to hear has no bearing on my posting my opinion about anything here or on the Internet. This is a "Forum," remember. If it's a great site, it's reputation will spread far and wide. If it's a poorly-disguised shill for RAF in people's opinion, that'll be presented also, whether anyone wants to hear it or not. Wishing away negative comments doesn't work.

[rmcfly]

Stan,

We hope you enjoy the site. Thanks for the pictures you sent in, the more people that join the better it will get. We will be shooting some video this weekend and will get it on the site as soon as possible.

Russ

[mcbirdman]

Look I am trying to tell you nothing matters like a stab..... K
I went to the site it was pretty.....Other
Things aren't calm as it seems ....k
That one photo was real pretty....O
It isn't like I haven't been around and luckily survived despite their lies.....k
Does anyone else have a pretty pix or maybe some dice they want to hang up ?.....O
Maybe you don't want someone to rain on your parade but there is a lot at risk ....k
Actually, will rain make the picture ink run?....k
We didn't make the picture we just posted it to share..... Like to talk pictures?
Would be fun to talk pretty pixs but there is alot more to talk about than more.pix..k
Oh, you want more pictures? We hope if you come here you will talk pictures..

End
Too bad. Some things just won't change. I guess we are only going to talk pictures. Good news is that when you want to talk reality this forum is here and there is still a few that take the time to tell the truth and dispell the lies.

[Harry_S.]

I see no ref. to RAF Marketing on the RAF PILOTS site. The logo at the top is for the RAF . RAF = R otary A ir F orce...The gyro is not an RAF Marketing gyro. Maybe a new logo could be made. That's up to the site owner.

Forget everything else. Pay attention. This new site is not for Marketing pilots, it's for RAF pilots and other gyro pilots as well. What I see so far is RAF2000 machines with stabs and machines without stabs...pilots' choice.
I foresee more pics of stabbed machines than stock machines.

Ken, I'm always relaxed. Never have used relaxants. Use Bayer aspirin for my arthritis.
I looked at about everything on that sight yesterday and found no reference to Don LaFleur or the A.F.Society. Could you direct me to it?
Letter writers have opinions, just like you. If I disagree with an offered opinion, I maybe, will offer my counterpoint. ;)

Ken...what was it, Paxil? Take one; no, take two.
And Ken...listen to your elders, we didn't get this old by sucking on "Life Savers." :D


Cheers :)

[mcbirdman]

Yea, I think it is great place to talk. You can talk about what color scheme you picked for the interior or if your landing lights will flash or just stay on and hey - no big deal stab it or not it doesn't really make a difference to us here at our new hangout.... That pretty much is like looking for the news by reading People magazine.

And you can do all that in one place. There is even stuff there regarding some of the more knowledgeable in the group. They can tell you what you want to hear and what they want to hear also. That makes it a convienent place to talk about everything or anything you want with no issue being of any greater or less significance than another. Another great holdout. I mean hideout ... holdout..... whatever....

[davreich]

In my opinion....

[Mayfield]

Dave,

You wrote the below post in the General Discussion section and then the one above. They seem at odds with each other.

Respectfully,

Jim


#5 Today, 05:32 PM
davreich
Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
[B]Location: Wautoma, Wisconsin
Posts: 53


"Hi,
I thought both the articles were very good and placed appropriately together. It allows someone to form an opinion without bias.
If some, in the forums, could learn to give their great knowledge of gyros to others without wrapping their opinions in barb wire, it would be much more pleasurable to participate instead of lurk."

[KenSandyEggo]

Harry, it's under "Rotor Trim" and is the 15th paragraph down. (Holy crap, Harry. You have me by 10 years!)

"It happened that Southern Africa's RAF distributor, Dave Armstrong was attending Oshkosh. As usual, he was accompanied by his family and was spending a great deal of time at the busy Rotary Air Force exhibition stand. Dave introduced me to CEO Don LeFleur a legendary figure amongst gyro pilots. Their enthusiasm wore me down and with a certain amount of misgiving, I volunteered to accompany demonstration pilot Duane Hunn on an RAF 2000 flight out of Fond du Lac airfield where they were giving rides."

That statement should win the Burlington Liar's Contest every year. # 1, he's not legendary by any means, and #2 he is not and never was a gyro pilot as is inferred. It's as if I say that I'm a legend amongst brain surgeons.....that statement infers that I'm a legendary brain surgeon.

[Harry_S.]

Hey Ken:

I AGREE with you.

By the way...I've been having this terrible pain at the apex of my brain stem...


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

This popped up for the 3rd. time in 6 yrs. I'd like to know if anyone else has had this problem, or any ideas what's causing it.

Normally on landing, I taxi to the hangar and put it away. The three times this has happened, I have parked outside on the ramp, in the sun, while I took a break in the lounge. The break has lasted over an hour. I mount up, get all situated to fly and hit the starter button...and nothing. Dead silence.

The first time this happened, I felt of the starter and it was hot. I figured it was the hot sun plus the radiant heat from the hot engine. I backed it into the shade to cool off. After a while, it started right up.

The 2nd and 3rd time... the 3rd was just the other day...I couldn't wait for it to cool off so I poured cold water over the starter housing and she started right away.

Comments...suggestions? :confused:

[Jerseywing]

Sounds like the proverbial "hot spot" that plagued GM starters for a long time. I remember my father having troubles like that in the 60's with a Pontiac we owned. Unfortunately it will happen with increasing frequency. The solution is a new starter.

[Aussie_Paul]

Harry, the contacts inside the solenoid get dirty and cause intermittent problems. These contacts carry the big current load.

Disconnect the battery and remove the 3 screws at the rear end of the solenoid to which the 12 volt cables are attached, and take the plate off. Carefully pull the inner part of the solenoid rearward and out. Check to see if the small ball bearing is stuck to the end of the long skinny spring. Hopefully the ball bearing will have stayed inside. Looking in you will see the 2 large brass contacts. These need to be sanded clean and smooth. The inner part that you removed has a brass washer that makes the connection between the 2 brass contacts when the power pulls the solenoid forward as you turn the key to start. Clean the brass washer the same as you did the 2 contacts.

Reassemble and see if that helps. I have to do that occasionally to my engine and pre rotator starter motors.

Aussie Paul.:)

[KenSandyEggo]

Geez, Paul. It's much easier to go to NAPA or Pep Boys and plunk down a credit card.

[birdy]

Electricity is very reliable stuff.
You can rely on it to stuff up at the most inconveanient time.

[Harry_S.]

Thanks Paul. I'll print that out and file it.

Next time I park on the ramp for an extended time, I'll cover the starter with a small towel and see if that helps. If not...some rework or a new starter, ay.

I've shut down for shorter periods...like 15-20 min...and she kicks right off, no problem.

[mcbirdman]

Some starters drawing much power because of bad contacts keep heating themselves up to the point they become unusable anyway. On electrical contacts they are usually coated with a very thin layer of gold or something similiar reduce the damage caused by the initial contact ( the arcing)by providing a smooth conductive surface.

If you sand off the coating you will probably be doing this kind of repair with more frequency. Using a pencil eraser was something that my dad showed me on other electrical items that reduced the amount of metal removed.

As the contacts get corroded with increasing arcing and general exposure to air they will fail quicker. If you have pitting marks caused by arcing you have problems. The pitted areas will grow.

The load imposed from the poor connection can cause other problems such as flucuating voltages as the connexions aren't "sollid" I think it is possible to overload the rectifier on the alternator because of the high voltage surges that would occur. We all know what brown surges can do to computer equipment. I would rather buy a starter now than worry about it, and end up buying a new starter AND an alternator.

Hey - 6 years at 10.00 or so dollars a year... is that too much for piece of mind? Kinda hard to pull over on the road. Kinda hard to explain why you can't restart after a stall while you are gliding down... Umm sorry but I have to let it cool down because this has happened before.....

Hope it helps some, you probably got it already pulled apart. jtm

[mceagle]

G'day Harry.
The first thing that you should do is check to see that the starter solenoid is getting power when you press the butto (turn the key). If not then the problem is in the wiring before it gets to the starter motor. Otherwise :-
If your starter makes a "click" when you press the button then the problem is in the contacts as described by Paul B above. (the solenoid is activating but it is not activating the starter motor)
If there is no "click" then the solenoid itself is not activating. The solenoid is earthed through the brushes to the starter motor and the problem is normally caused by sticky brushes or lack of brush spring tension (worn brushes). Replacing the brushes is an easy job and inexpensive for someone that knows what they are doing.

[mcbirdman]

Tim, the click doesnt neccesarily meant that the solinoid is sliding all the way within the piston like mechanism. Heat can distort that cylinder and make it hang up when it is hot. That is true also isn't it? One thing for sure. It will only get worse and luckily you noticed the problem. That is about 1/2 the battle isn't it?

[Harry_S.]

A belated thank you for the tips on my starter problem. My bride has had some surgeries and now is on the mend.


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

A question for you fellas that have tip-weighted blades.

Have any of you tried to add identical washers to the tip ends to increase rrpm? If so, what results did you have, if any?

[KenSandyEggo]

Just thought of something. If you wire the ignition switch per the RAF instructions, power is always going to the starter. I put in a master switch that cuts everything off and don't ever have battery slow-discharging anymore. That constant current to the starter may have something to do with your problem Harry, but I'm not sure.

[birdy]

It'd only be going to one contact point Ken,and if nothings touching that point,the power can't leak.[providing theres no short in the systm.With a simple,open circit,that would be unlikely].An isolation switch is a good idea,turns everything off.

[Harry_S.]

I made this an abreviated post. Please post any questions you may have.

To put spring in your RAF axle:

With a floor jack or whatever, raise either wheel 4-5 in. off the floor. Put a block under the center of the axle, at the bottom of the mast. Lower the jack and ascertain the wheel remains clear of the floor.

Have one of your bystanders sit on the grounded wheel, to keep the machine from rocking. If wheelpants are installed they could hold the wheel down at the axle with no problem. This won't take long.

Loosen the jam nut of the rod end of the vertical strut that attaches at the wheel bracket. Remove the bolt holding the rod end in the bracket. Lift the rod end out of the bracket and extend the rod end 1 1/2 to 2 turns. Insert the rod end into the bracket, insert the bolt and torque the nut and tighten the jam nut. That completes the one side.

Have your bystander move to the other side and gently rock your machine so the other wheel is off the floor. Repeat the previous procedure on the other wheel.

Rock your machine back to the original side, where the jack is...raise the wheel with the jack...remove the block and lower the jack. Remove the jack and the job is done. You have now added a considerable amount of bow ...and *spring*... to your axle.

This tip was passed on to me by Dofin Fritts.


Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

Harry, that "tip" is in the manual and/or videos that come with the kit. If you don't do it, your tires will wear like crazy on the inside edges.

[Harry_S.]

Ken; my *tip* is not in the video nor the manual. In the video, RAF shows a tool you would have to make. It braces between the bracket on the mast and the bracket at the wheel and you use a wrench to spread or extend the tool.

My tip gets the same results without the cost or time of making the tool.

I believe the intent of bowing the axle was...in a hard landing, the spring in the bow would relieve some of the down force at the center of the axle.

I still have the original tires and tubes on my machine and are in good shape. I've had to repair one tube, that's all.

Knock on wood, I hope I've not jinxed myself with the tires. ;)


Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

I did mine the way you explained it too, Harry. I jacked it up and had someone stand on it while I extended the rod-ends. I just meant that they suggest doing it somewhere. If your tires are not wearing on the edges, you must have hit the
"sweet-spot."

[Harry_S.]

Stan:

Have meant to ask you...did you weigh your SC blades and hubbar before you installed 'em?

I'm wondering what the difference is, in weight vs the RAF blades. My RAF blades and hub weigh in at 99 lbs.


Cheers :)

[StanFoster]

Harry: I did not weigh them..but the Sportcopter hubbar is much heavier..there must be three times the metal in that thing. I would say the rotor blades themselves were lighter than the RAF blades.

The RAF blades had plenty of reserve energy for landing...but the Sportcopters have more.

Stan

[automan1223]

(ron a just adding fool to the fire !, opps, I mean fuel !



Okay... RAF sucks and Dominators rule. ;D

No they are good machines if you work out all the bugs. I can't wait to see and sit in a true Sparrowhawk to see if the added room inside makes a big difference. If the RAF was roomier inside I might be tempted to own one myself.

[Harry_S.]

OK, thanks Stan.

Anyone else out there that has an all up weight on the Sport Copter 30 ft. blades?


Cheers :)

[CLS447]

My 28' SC blades weigh 86 lbs. 36lb hub & 25 for each blade. Add 2 feet,

[Harry_S.]

Hi:

In another thread, reference is made to a Product Notice issued by RAF recently. I have not received it. I'm usually last on the delivery route I guess, as other people are usually discussing items before I receive my copy. Other than outside the Continental USA, I'm located the farthest from the factory. :p

Has anyone received their copy and can post here of the highlights...especially on the hubbar/wing attach bolts?


Cheers :)

[tomhall]

Harry, I just received my " notice " today. They are addressing " hub bar winglet cracks " and are offering a beefier hub-bar and AN bolt for either $ 300 or $ 550 ( it's hard to decipher ). As I have yet to fly mine ( this Spring ) I will listen to your voices of experience. Tom T. Hall in MN

[Harry_S.]

Hey...Thanks Tom. If you just got your RAF Notice today, I should expect mine maybe the end of the week. I won't ask you for more info...unless you want to give it.

I see by your bio that you are a glutton for getting up, to stir up the air. As Birdy says..."good on ya." Do you have any gyro time? Are you installing a stab?

Keep us posted, will you Tom? We want to hear from all you RAF gents.


Cheers :) ;)

[StanFoster]

Harry: I just received my hubbar and bolt update. Had I still had my RAF blades....I would have been sending in my hub. Their modification looks better.

Harry....I would be more than happy to fax you my update. Its two pages. If you want to leave your fax number here...or give it to me private...I will send it pronto. :)

Any other RAF pilot want one....just private mail me your fax number and it will be on its way.

Stan

[tomhall]

Harry, I posted about 8 weeks ago under " Training " " School of hard Knox " witha few pictures. I have flown ( very little ) with Duane Hunn, have not flown my gyro yet, and will be using Don Parham's H.S. I also have Don's suspension. I am looking for more instruction in March/April. Ron Menzie is high on my list, I hear there may be some new instructors in the Midwest ?!

[Harry_S.]

Stan:

Thanks for the offer but...I don't have a Fax. I never did get into the high tech stuff. ;) I've been retired now for 20 yrs. and this computer is about as hi-tech as I'll ever get...and I haven't figured it out yet.

I'll probably get my P/N this week. Could you make out the price quote?


Tom:

I think I remember your previous posting. I'll go back and look it up. I want to commend you on your planning regimen as regards training. I'm an advocate for the proper training syllabus...and the student to diligently follow it in his practice. I'm sure you'll do fine. Keep us posted, Tom.


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

It is amazing...I just received my P/N from RAF this afternoon. I'll have to chew on it awhile. It's not really clear cut as to what they're modifying. The end of the winglet shows an extra part (where it would attach to the hubbar.) Or am I misreading it?


Cheers :)

[GyroTyro]

Several posters have referred to the difficulty of installing the seat in the earlier RAFs, Putting the rear bolts in are a bear, to put it mildly. :( I was wondering if anyone has attempted to put studs in the nutplates on the seat tank, insert the studs into the mounting slot/holes in the seat mounts and then install nyloc nuts on the studs?

[Aussie_Paul]

.......I loctite studs into the back of the seat and also shorter studs for the 4 under the seat. I then use thin nyloc nuts. :cool:

Makes life a lot easier I can tell you. :D

Aussie Paul. :)

[GyroTyro]

Paul:

Thanks for a quick response. :)

Where and why on the back of the seat. :confused:

I have 4 bolts under the seat but I don't recall any on the back of the seat. I will install them and locktight them. I don't know why I didn't think of that before now.

[Aussie_Paul]

Walt, mine were the earlier uncomfortable Raf seats that went up the back, not the later more uncomfortable ones that Raf used to lower the CofG further. Sorry guys, I just could not resist. Come on Paul, TRY HARDER!!!!!!!!!!!TRY HARDER!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Aussie Paul. :)

[Harry_S.]

Walt:

I typed this post out yesterday but apparently it didn't take.

The seat that Paul is talking of was in the earlier models. My kit no. was 324 and I have the same seat as Paul. My seat has no anchor nuts. All the holes are threaded in the plastic. In addition to the four holes on the bottom, there are two more on the rear surface, about 4 in. from the top edge of the tank. These two are used to attach angled brackets that protrude thru the cabin and are anchored to the mast.

I haven't sat in an RAF with the newer seat so I have no idea how comfortable it is. I put too much padding on my seat and lost maybe an inch of comfort, up and back. Someday I may re-pad it.

Paul's idea of installing studs in those threaded holes is a pregnant idea. I will do that too, if I ever remove the tank again, but I think I would just stud the two rear holes. I think it would make for easier installation, plus the two forward bolts are no sweat to install.


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

Ummm-Ummm. Today in Central Florida, at noon time, it was CAVU and 70 degrees. Prior committments and cold weather had me grounded for 2 weeks. :(

Today I finally got to the airport and stirred up the air for about 45 min. A very good fix for the blahs. ;)


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

Stan"

Our butts weigh about the same :o ; so while flying yesterday, I wondered about my rotor rpm. A couple questions please.

What was your rpm in cruise with the RAF blades vs the SC blades?

Did you have a rotor head *wobble* on pre-rotation with the RAF blades and if you did, do you have any *wobble* with the SC blades?


Cheers :)

[StanFoster]

Harry: My RAF blades averaged around 320-330....same with my SportCopter blades.

The mast shakes the same while pre-rotating either type of blades.

[Aussie_Paul]

Harry, yes a good idea to just do the rear two with loctited studs.

Aussie Paul. :)

[KenSandyEggo]

Harry, my mast wobbled like crazy with the RAF blades and doesn't at all with the SCs. Mine also wobbled in flight with the RAFs. The control rods used to look like they were dancing and now they're still.

[Harry_S.]

Mmmm...Ken:

On pre-rotation my rotor head starts to *wobble* at around 60 rpm, gets it's worse between 75 and 90 and is smooth as silk at 100 rpm. In flight there is no wobble or shakin' of the head, mast or the push rods.

I don't understand why your blades acted as they did. Maybe you had an imbalance in one blade? I realize RAF had a problem with their blade mfg. process and have corrected it?! My original blades were replaced with the tip weighted blades. Maybe that corrected the problem?!

Anyone else had or have that kind of shakin' like Ken had?


Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

Harry, I'm sure that my blades were imbalanced. That's when the filler was a hit or miss, with them thicker, thinner and air spaces along their length.

[birdy]

Harry,I found that if I added more pressure to the clutch leaver when the mast started shake'n it wasn't as bad,and got over the shake'n rev range quicker.Also,if your pressure plate on the clutch is glazed/polished,give it a touch up with sand paper or lightly with a grinder,it makes a difference.Smoother and more rrpm too.

[Harry_S.]

You're right Birdy, that pressure plate does get glazed after a bit. I usually take it off and rough it a bit when I do my annual condition insp.; if I fly tommorow, I'll take it off and rough it, if it's needed. I have 4 mos. till my annual.

I tend to squeeze the p/r grip full bore right off. My thinkin' on the *wobble* bit is that those long blades are drooping so much that they're like wet noodles till centrifugal force straightens 'em out. Once mine get to 100 rpm they are smooth.


Cheers :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Birdy and Harry, make sure that you have faced the friction pad material in a lathe, particularly the ones with the 3 pads. When Raf pop rivet the 3 pads on, the pressure distorts the 3 pads, and you can be running with the 6 corners trying to do all the work. I face them in a lathe and wow!!! It makes a lot of difference.

Aussie Paul.:)

[StanFoster]

PauL; The one thing I am most disatisfied with my RAF is the pre-rotator. I am going to take your advice and have my clutch pads turned when I do my annual. I rarely can hit 150 with my pre-rotator sitting still in no wind. Sure...a little wind and then I can get more.

Happy flying down under in 2005 Paul... :)


Stan

[KenSandyEggo]

I had my plate ground flat and it makes a difference. Haven't gotten around to facing the 3 pucks yet. I also ordered a slightly smaller-bore slave to play with for my hydraulic actuator. Should have it in a couple days to play with. Time just has been short. With the hydraulic actuator, shortened cable(s) and facing of the plate and pucks, anyone should be able to get over 200 rrpm consistently. I'll try to hurry it up with testing the new slave unit.

[Aussie_Paul]

Guys, facing the 3 pucks gives much more improvement than facing the disc. The disc is already faced square, but by roughing it with the lathe it helps.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Vance]

I found that the the disk was not flat or square on an RAF pre rotor. It seemed to change shape after it got hot and that made the adjustment and release more problematic. Thank you, Vance

[KenSandyEggo]

Paul, mine wasn't either. There were gaps when I placed a straight-edge across the plate. Facing the pucks makes excellent sense also.

[Harry_S.]

By golly, you know, I think luck comes along with old age. I've had exceptional luck with my machine.

This latest discussion on the pre-rotator is interesting. I believe RAF made the change to the three pucks because of complaints from customers that they could not get sufficient rpm on pre-rotation...I think.

I have the original one piece, impregnated pad on my machine. Other than the few times I smoked it...when learning how to use the p/r...it has worked just fine. The reason I smoked it, is, this is the first p/r I have ever used. I always hand started my rotors before. Smaller Bensen's.

Since I raised the plastic retainer/guide on the mast, I get a consistent 190-210 rrpm @ 1700 erpm, depending on wind. I have the newer 3 puck driver but never installed it as I've been satisfied with the original set-up.


Cheers :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Ok Ken and Vance. None of mine were warped. Too much heat will do that. Thanks for the info.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Harry_S.]

Birdy, you were right on mate.

I pulled the p/r drive plate yesterday, after my pre-flight. It looked pretty good, but I gave it a few swipes and rotations with some emery cloth...being as I had it off.

Turning the rotor up for take-off was the smoothest and quickest since right after my last annual. I'll have to see how long that roughen' will last. ;)


Cheers :)

[birdy]

Another hint ,if your interested Harry.
I'v got a pretty good run from the last time I roughed up me clutch P plat[bout 150 hours back] ,and I usualy use this sequence for prerotating.
Starting with a low engine idle speed,[and this isn't low for a 914,bout 1300 rpm],apply only enough pressure on the leaver to engauge the bendix.The rotors don't seem to move much for a bit,but they will slowly start to spin up.
Gradualy add pressure as the rrpm inceases,at a gentle rate so that by the time the clutch has caught up with the engine[no longer slinp'n and bout 120 rrpm] you should only have bout half pressure on the leaver.
This stops the faces from overheat'n as they try to equal the rpms.
From here you heave on the leaver with full pressure and back stick and gradualy increase throttle to max rrpm,try'n to not let the engine outrun the clutch[start slipp'n again].My cool clutch faces will contiualy reach 180/200 rrpm,and it's bout 150 hours since I last roughed up me clutch.
ps;,the rpms will be different coz I got a 914 and different pully ratios,but the trick is to not heat the clutch.It may seem slow to start ,but once the faces are synched in rpm they will spin up much faster.

[Harry_S.]

I'll work with that Birdy, next time out.

I'll put a bit in here on my p/r sequence.

Normally, I'm at idle rpm's (1250) when I squeeze the p/r grip...hard. Engine rpm drops to about 900, so I know?, the driver and the cable are making good contact?. I increase throttle to 1250 and if rotor rpm keeps increasing, I throttle up to 1700. When rrpm reaches 200, I release the handle and start my take-off roll. I'm working everything here, dictated by experience... in the pre-rotation and take-off sequence.

I have never kept my p/r engaged beyond say, 1800 erpm and/or 200 rrpm. With the runway length I have available, there is no need for pushing it.

I think, someday, I would like to try an old fashioned take-off by having someone start my rotor by hand and give it a good shove and see if I can milk it up for take-off??


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

Being as I have learned, somewhat, how to post attachments :o , I will show a couple old pics of my machine. These are from a pic folder; I still have a problem attaching from my digital file.

One pic is of my initial panel installation and the other is of the original muffler.


Cheers :)