Altimeter settings

[scottessex]

Just curious, pros and cons of setting altimeter to '0' at airport, instead of MSL. alt. ?
I noticed alot of gyro pilots zero the alt before flight.

[Harry_S.]

Set it to pressure or zero as long as you know where you are, unless, you're going into controlled airspace; then you need much more than just an altimeter.

[rehler]

Zero before flight is the way to do it for most gyro flights that take off and land at the same airport or one close by with similar altitude. It is much easier to know how high you are above the ground, especially when close to it, like most gyros fly (0 to 1000 feet).

[StanFoster]

I always set mine to 0. I like to know instantly without subtracting 760 feet which is what our field elevation is.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

What would be wrong with setting the altimiter to berometric pressure like the rest of aviation does?

Sure it is more simple to read your altitude above the airport that you are flying from if you set zero before take off.

But how do you figure your height above any other airport or terrain away from your airport?

What happens if you are asked to say altitude by ATC in controlled airsapace, especially if you squawking mode C?

How do you figure the proper altitude seperation from other aircraft?

It is a very significant safety concern when asked by another aircraft or ATC to say your altitude. And setting zero on the altimiter only works at airfields at sea level.

What does it say about your cognitive process when you can't even do simple math?

And most important of all, what is wrong with learning some of the most basic of aviation rules and proceedures to be in conformance with all the rest of aviation?

I would suggest that by ingraining sloppy proceedures into your flying habits you are limiting your flying to above your home field.........

Chuck E.

[Al_Hammer]

Yes Chuck, but even the pros make mistakes when they try to do things in their head.

This pilot trashed a 21 million dollar F16 because he messed up the altimeter setting.
He was flying an airshow routine and pulled out of a split S only to find himself heading for the parking lot at 8400 ft/min. He bailed 0.8 secs before impact.

PS:
This picture is not retouched in any way.

[scottessex]

Man! That would ruin your whole day!

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Al :

My post was meant to ask some questions to reply to how to set an altimeter for flight.

The questions remain valid, I am not suggesting that all pilots do not make mistakes..........

However why compound your risk factor by choosing to set the altimiter in an unorthodox manner to the rest of aviation?

Look at it from this perspective, I ocasionally fly a turbine airplane and we frequently get an IFR hand off to do an approach in VFR weather at airports with only FSS advisory availiable. So we hear a gyro on the airport frequency and ask him his present altitude. If he has set his altimiter at zero on take off and tells us he is at five hundred feet and the airport is at say twenty three hundred feet what good does that do us trying to find him especially as we may be still doing over two hundred knots?

Remember if we smack into a small grro everyone will probably die.

So what is wrong with using the same altimiter setting as everyone else that flys?

Chuck E.

[gyropilot]

This pilot trashed a 21 million dollar F16 because he messed up the altimeter setting.Al,

There's really no need to exaggerate things to make your point.

That F16 was only valued at $20.4 million.

John L.

[jucie]

That's a valid point, Chuck.

[Al_Hammer]

John L. -ya got me. You must have done your homework on that crash.

The answer to your question is simple Chuck, just use your TCAS to keep track of the gyro.
Of course, it may not be equipped with an encoding altimeter.. whooops.
My buddy does have a radio shack rangefinder gizmo on his gyro that is used for parking cars. It lights up an indicator when he is 10 ft above the runway. If he had a radio he could then report his altitude.
At my airport, it would be a miracle to find a gyro pilot or ultralight pilot who used a radio or had one that worked.

I look forward to when ADSB is in every plane. It keeps track of other traffic and does terrain avoidance using gps. They featured it on the program Innovations last night. Pretty neat technology.

When flying your turbine around uncontrolled airports, it is really your responsiblilty, I would think, to keep an eye out for all low flying traffic, including ultralights, gyros, paraplanes, and whatever, and not rely on radio reports as the primary means of collision avoidance.

[scottessex]

Not to change the subject, But I am currently flying as an ultralight, but I would like to get a radio, what kind of radio would work for a gyro, that other pilots can hear etc.? and are batteries ok? or should it be run off the electrical system.
I was told by a fellow gyro pilot to always set the atl at MSL. But most gyro guys I talk to set it at zero.

[Blll]

"When flying your turbine around uncontrolled airports, it is really your responsiblilty, I would think, to keep an eye out for all low flying traffic, including ultralights, gyros, paraplanes, and whatever, and not rely on radio reports as the primary means of collision avoidance"

Yeah, but when HIS turbine aircraft hits (or heck even just flies by close enough to cause severe turbulence) YOUR gyro because you couldnt report the correct altitude whose ass is gonna be grass? Will you feel any better at the pearly gates because YOU died because HE didnt meet HIS "responsibilities"?

Thats the same line I always here from people on bikes...."Well bikes/pedestrians have the right of way over cars on the road"....yeah, and who do you think looses almost everytime in those "encounters"....

If you NEVER ever carry a radio on your gyro....go ahead and set your altimeter to zero...but its still a bad habit to get into the habit of doing....especially when you finally decide to start carrying a radio or using a transponder.....ATC is just gonna love you when the transponder says one thing and other pilots are reporting something else...

Also seems pretty stupid on another level.....are you REALLY using your altimeter to judge your altitude rather than the old eyeball when your flying around? What are you doing, flying in pea soup fog?

If you are THAT math/memory challenged, put a little note next to your digital altimeter..... or a little mark on your dial if its an analog guage...to note the elevation of your airstrip.....and USE em if somehow you instantly get fogged in while your flying around....

No system is perfect...but I can think of alot more reasons to do it the right way rather than the wrong way....

Sure, those seatbelts might actually drown me or trap me in a burning car someday....but I'm going with the odds and not worrying about the freak occurrences.....

take care

Blll

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Precisley, Bill :

That is exactly what I am trying to point out.

It would be rather a stretch to even suggest that we as professional pilots flying high performance airplanes are not aware that it is our responsibility to find all VFR traffic, however in the real world it is not that simple.

A few years ago we had just broke out of cloud after doing a high rate of descent ADF approach and the ceiling and vis were about a thousand and three, legal VFR for any airplane we were on the MF and had announced our position and altitude after getting visual on that frequency, I was the pilot not flying and Stan was just adjusting the speed and confirming the runway about four miles ahead when I saw a white sea gull coming at us head on so I said turn right, "NOW" we are going to hit a sea gull and as we turned this white ultralite flashed by so close I could almost reach out and touch it.

Well Stan had saw it at just about the same moment and we almost died of heart attacks having come so close to killing everyone on both machines. It is doubtful if the ultralite had a radio as we never did hear from it...but I'll bet they had brown pants, besause they must have got quite a shock as we went by them.

What I am trying to point out is we were just slowing through two hundred knots and the closure rate was unbelieavable because the ultralite was so hard to see......a gyro will be just as difficult so if radio contact is possible it really adds to safety...

And having the correct altitude makes it even safer.

I believe that a lot of gyro pilots here own so called x/country machines, therefore using correct proceedures should be a no brainer.

Chuck E.

[StanFoster]

Chuck: I totally agree with setting the altimeter to ASL when traveling cross country. In my case...around Paxton, Il....it is about as flat as a pancake. Most of my flying is 5-700 feet above ground and within 25 miles.

I want to know instantly what my HAG is for emergency reasons. I have my GPS reading out my correct ASL readings anyway. It would be over redundant to set my altimeter to mimic my GPS...and with my altimeter showing my above ground altitude ...I dont have to be cyphering during an engine out what my altitude is should I be trying to make a landing in a tight place. This example is further explained in the RAF section that I just posted in.

Stan

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Stan :

Unless you are WAAS enabled with your GPS the altitude readings can be quite unreliable, up to four hundred feet in error.

We use GPS that are IFR certified for GPS approaches and they are limited by RAIM at any given time.

RAIM is the conformation that enough satellites are in the correct position to give accurate GPS positions.

So be aware that the altitude readout can be in error....not that it really matters all that much if you are low and visual and not in controlled airspace..

And don't feel I'm being condesending...I'm just passing on some advice.

Chuck

[StanFoster]

Chuck: My GPS is WAAS ...but I know what you mean about using the regular mode for accuracy. Our field elevation is 760...my GPS in the normal mode shows 680 on average.

I enjoy your posts and I feel this forum is a wealth of information ...its just we all have different circumstances and thus have different methods at times. My wanting to know "instantly" without cyphering my above ground altitude has been engrained in me by all my freaking forced landings I have been through...18 to be exact. So far..no scratches to me or my gyros. :)

[Hognose]

This pilot trashed a 21 million dollar F16 because he messed up the altimeter setting.

Actually, Al and guys, it was simpler than that -- he just screwed up -- entered a little low, made the half-loop a little large, made a split-second decision that it was time to step out and walk. A decision proven right when the machine bounced a little over a half second after he ejected. (He was OK and there wasn't much damage on the ground. He was headed more or less at the control tower and the USAF photographer was on the tower balcony. There is also video of this mishap from several angles). This was a Thunderbirds airshow which had just gotten underway.

As far as altitude goes, the F16 HUD normally displays both your barometric alt. MSL and your radar altitude above terrain. I think it will be a very long time before we have radar altimeters in gyroplanes but many military aircraft (even rotorcraft) have them. (I had a friend crippled for life doing a rappelling [abseiling] demonstration from a UH-1; the pilot had let the machine climb from the required 90 ft. to about 125 feet in a hover. That technique has been all but replaced by fast-roping since, but either is much safer from a UH- or MH-60 that has a radar altimeter).

Let me tell a story of a distany, foggy kingdom, where altimeter settings approach the chaotic. It's not a fairy tale; it's the United Kingdom. In Britain, many light sport and training aircraft use local field altitude as zero, which is called QFE, and larger craft which operate in the system use QNH (barometer) settings. To increase the embuggerment value of all this, they give you the number in hectopascals. The metrification Nazis are in full cry in England -- you probably heard about the guy who was arrested for selling a "pound" of bananas instead of some decimal of a kilogram. Regardless of what the tower tells you, your Kollsman window probably still speaks in/Hg so you need to be able to convert on the fly -- 1013.2 millibars = 29.92. Obviously you do this with some kind of conversion chart, or you suck it up and pay to have your instrument converted (in which case you are hurtin' if you come back to the States with it). So we have airplanes coming and going with at least two different altimeter settings, many of which have put an unnecesssary burden NOT on the controller in his aerie, but on the pilot in his pit.

You might think I believe the British system is unsafe and retarded. Well... yeah, but that's not all. In the US, when you go into Class A airspace (Airspace classes: another gift from the crooks and dilletantes at the ICAO, but I digress...) everybody sets his altimeter to an agreed-upon value, 1013.2 milli- er, 29.92. The reasons for this are manifold, but basically, high-flying planes usually cover a lot of ground (and therefore may pass through pressure zones quickly), pressure variations are less significant when you are not at risk of CFIT, and ground-level reporting of pressure variations isn't that applicable to pressure at altitude: pressure differentials are a three-dimensional phenomenon. But in England this "transition value" is much lower -- 3,000 feet. Except where it's 4,000. Or 6,000. Or something else. Do I hear 7,000? No. Going for 6,000 max, honest, at some major airfields. But wait! It also varies according to time of day. If the tower's closed it's back to three thousand. Except where it isn't.

In the USA, people whose ancestry causes the genetic phenomenon known as "inbreeding depression" are usually hillbillies. In the UK, they must be aviation regulators. It's impossible to believe that anyone with the slightest concern for air safety generated a system where four different aircraft might be indicating different altitudes and all be on collision course at 4,000 feet: A glider from gliderport X whose instrument is set to QFE sub X; a powered trainer from airport Y whose instrument is set to QFE sub Y; a Cessna with QNH sub Y dialed in and a transiting aircraft with 1013.2 on the clock.

I didn't mention the military, who follow separate rules, because, well, I don't understand the rules. If a Tornado hits you it's all over quickly at least; you won't feel a thing.

I realise that using QFE is rather convenient, especially for NORDO ships that stay close to home and seldom fly cross-country. Gliders, for instance, ultralights, or... gyros. But the gyroplane is growing up. We have the Groen Hawk4 and Jay Carter's pirate crew pushing the upper end of the envelope at the same time we have AAI, RAF and Magni among others selling machines that can go places (I have to include the open Magni. Greg flies his everywhere). Within a year or two we are going to see gyros with complete IFR instrumentation. Not many, but a few. I think we ought to train our newbies (myself included, as far as gyros go) in habits that subsequent instructors will not have to train them out of.

Look at what the new guys are asking. They want speed (heh. Some limitations inherent in the gyroplane class and rotorcraft category here...) and they want to take their gyros places. While a radio is an oddity in a Bensen, absence of one is striking in an RAF, AAI, or other modern 2-seater. I say, start with good (and extensible) habits because primacy, the principle that you learn best what you learn first, is a two-edged sword in education.

Your mileage may vary. I have fewer gyro hour (singular is deliberate!) than most of you.

cheers

-=K=-

[pwendell]

I say, start with good (and extensible) habits because primacy, the principle that you learn best what you learn first, is a two-edged sword in education.

-=K=-

Here! Here!

[Harry_S.]

Hey ya'll, just my comment.

99 percent of the guys on this forum are gyro drivers or wannabe's. 99 percent of these drivers don't venture near a controlled airspace, nor do they want to.

Now, say that I were out tooling around plowed fields, or mustering cows and some *Smiling Jack* type interrupted my radio conversation, and asked my altitude, I would simply eye-ball my altimeter and reply, " 350 ft. AGL. If he's concerned, let him do the math.

Let's get real guys. We're talking light weight, homebuilt gyro's, not high tech machinery.

[KenSandyEggo]

Hey! Isn't that someone's motto...the 1-percenters? Or does that make me a Hell's Angel? A few of us fly out of Class D airspace and I have flown in Class B into Lindbergh International, complete with radio, transponder and encoder. Former Unicom-only fields are now getting towers, like Ramona. I'm having a hard time thinking of the closest non-towered field around here. I guess it's Oceanside, about 35 miles away. Everything else here has a tower. Keeps one on one's toes.

Took a Wannabee that I had previously met from Kansas who winters here and took him for a ride this a.m. We were out for about an hour and he had the stick for about 20 minutes. Never been in a gyro before. He had no trouble keeping her straight and level and even making turns. Good job Mayfield and company.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Harry:

For us to even begin to understand what the other person is trying to say we need to know the other person is referring to.

What is some " Smiling Jack. " I don't know what you mean, what exactly is a Smiling Jack?

Chuck E.

[Al_Hammer]

Hognose, that was a very entertaining post.


from avweb:

The pilot incorrectly climbed to 1,670 feet AGL instead of 2,500 feet before initiating the pull-down to the Split-S maneuver, according to the Air Force news release.

The pilot, Chris Stricklin, 31, apparently flew by mistake to the MSL altitude used when practicing the maneuver at his home base, Nellis AFB in Nevada, which is 1,000 feet lower than the Idaho field elevation.

Also, the board determined other factors substantially contributed to creating the opportunity for the error to occur, including the requirement for demonstration pilots to convert AGL elevations to MSL altitudes, and performing a maneuver with a limited margin of error. Instead of just zeroing the altimeter to deck level as a result of the crash, procedures have been changed to require that Thunderbird pilots climb an extra 1,000 feet before starting the Split-S maneuver. Pilots must also call out their altitude to the ground safety operator in MSL rather than AGL numbers.

http://www.avweb.com/newswire/10_05a/briefs/186582-1.html

[Harry_S.]

Chuck:

You never heard of, or read the comic strip "Smiling Jack"?

I have a mental block right now. Help me out K.J.

He was one of my favorite comic strips when growing up. He wore a 50 mission cap, was a handsome devil with a mustache, had a girlfriend to die for and a big bellied friend whose shirt buttons were always popping off and into the bill of this non-descript ground-bound bird. He was one fine aviator. Smiling Jack, that is.

Am I the only *old foggie* here that remembers "Smiling Jack"!?

Hey, Randy Brooks, you remember SJ, don't you?

[Al_Hammer]

I don't think I remember him, but here he is.

I think Smilin' Jack would make a great Avatar for Chuck. It's exactly how I picture him.

[Harry_S.]

That's him, without his Captains' boshi.

Thanks Al. If you don't remember him, how did you find him?

[Al_Hammer]

oh, that's easy, Harry. Google search on smilin jack

[PW_Plack]

...I would simply eye-ball my altimeter and reply, " 350 ft. AGL. If he's concerned, let him do the math.

Let's get real guys. We're talking light weight, homebuilt gyro's, not high tech machinery.

Harry, what does the level of technological advancement have to do with this? If you're going to share the air with others, you need to communicate in common terms. If you're ever called on the carpet for a near-miss, do you really want your "let him do the math" attitude revealed on his cockpit recording? I know...not likely. We train and practice for all kinds of things that are unlikely.

If German pilots can learn English as a condition for being allowed to fly, we can learn how to interpret an altimeter. This is like going on a motorcycle forum and saying you don't need to drive on the correct side of the road, because you only ride a moped.

Tell me again, I forget...why is it fixed-wing pilots don't take gyros seriously?

[Hognose]

The pilot, Chris Stricklin, 31, apparently flew by mistake to the MSL altitude used when practicing the maneuver at his home base, Nellis AFB in Nevada, which is 1,000 feet lower than the Idaho field elevation.

D'oh!

I wonder if he's still with the T-birds. I've seen the video and he's very relaxed, breathing easy... then he starts to tense up... you hear him grunting (SOP when pulling G). Then, VERY quickly you see him decide that there's no saving this one and grab for the handles. Not sure if I got the video from AvWeb, from one of my Air Force buds, or somewhere else.

That someone from the T-birds -- the Procedure Kings of the world who do everything by the book and by the numbers -- could make a cock-up of this magnitude, reinforces why the powers-that-be frown on impromptu air displays by us lesser mortals. It ought to be placarded on the dash next to the warning to pax (always amusing on a single-seater): "YOU are not the THUNDERBIRDS!" (Blue Angels.. Red Arrows... Frecce Tricolori... take your pick).

IMHO the guy did everything possible to save the plane, ALMOST pulled it off... and in the end, saved himself, which is the most irreplaceable part of the system. We have F-16s sitting at MARC in shrinkwrap; I'd rather see the USAF unwrap a $20-whatever million plane than have to pay $250k GI insurance to a widow. Stricklin must be an incredible pilot, because he made a 1,000 foot boner and he wound up wrenching a good 800-900 feet of it back.

Plus -- I bet he's never gonna make THAT mistake again. Sometimes the best thing to improve your flying, Al and guys, is a good fright! But it is always better to learn from the other guy's mistake if you can, because it can be painful and costly to learn from your own.

cheers

-=K=-

[Hognose]

I would simply eye-ball my altimeter and reply, " 350 ft. AGL. If he's concerned, let him do the math.



That's actually good CRM, Harry, whether it is instinctive or not. Always try to offload your brain from processing stuff that is not vital to your survival. That's like what happens when the controller tells you to do something dumb. You're the aircraft commander, and if you say "unable" the controller has to suck it up and give you an instruction you can live with. Mind you, some controllers might extend your downwind for nine or ten miles... which is a drag but it beats trying to do something risky to please somebody on the ground.

I think you might be mistaken about 99% of us flying from uncontrolled fields, though. And the trend, for good or for ill, is in the other direction.

Some of those regulators won't be happy until it's one big TCA from sea to shining sea. Except for the half of it that's TFRs.

cheers

-=K=-

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

I find it interesting when someone looks at another pilot and considers him to be Quote: "some Smiling Jack type" and has the attitude that being asked your altitude is somehow an infringement on his right to not be bothered with inane questions.

Goes right in hand with the reluctance to take recurrent training and BFR's because there is a loophole in the regs to exempt them from having to show profficiency like the rest of aviation is required to do.

Oh well, I guess in the final analisys it really has very little bearing on my day to day activities.

However I am still puzzeled by why one small group of pilots are reluctant to comply with even the most basic of aviation rules and common proceedures thereby alienating the group from the rest of aviation by not conforming.

Chuck E.

[Blll]

Hi guys...

some general observations here...its a long post about nutin in particular except safety and mindsets....

I have several other interests that I've had going on twenty years now....some technically oriented, some not so much so, some I actually do (or at least did), and some I only follow in print and/or the internet (dont have enough time or money for everything ya know :).....Some of these can kill ya when they are done wrong...and some just end up costing you time or money or broken equipment or are just not nearly as fun when done wrong...

Four of the main ones that actually involve safety aspects to a significant degree are caving (in air filled caves..and with vertical/ropework required), scuba diving, cave diving (water filled caves) and aviation (and aviation related stuff).....

In addition...I've been following said groups/cultures in newsgroups,bulletin boards, and chat rooms on the internet for ten years now (which probably repesents thousands if not ten thousand hours of reading this stuff)...

What all these groups have in common (and in common with the gyro community) is interesting.....there are the newbies....there are the people with the cheap toys, the ones with the expensive toys, the ones who do it 5 times a year, the ones who spend more time doing it than they do in their "real" jobs, the ones who do it AS their "real" jobs , the ones that have been doing it for 2 years, the ones that have been doing it for 40 years, the ones who never progress beyond the easy stuff that every beginner started out at, and all the folks between, around, over and under all those previous types...and then there are the "professionals" that do mindblowing stuff that to the beginner look death defying but the professionals MAKE safe by doing it the RIGHT way...and more importantly they do the mind blowing stuff over and over and over...it aint just a one time stunt where they got lucky...

Now, here comes the "funny" part.....in ALL these years and all those groups I've seen the same thing a million times over....

A "professional" will tell everyone THIS is how you do THAT.....this is the CORRECT procedure all the big boys use...and its done that way because we learned from ALLL those dead people in the past what NOT to do and THIS is the safest/easiest/most reliable thing we have come up with yet...

And then it begins.....you'll have a hundred newbies and self proclaimed experts (as well as trolls, just plain idiots, and hardcore contrarians) chime in....

And it is usually just mind boggling.....they will come up with the most bizzare circumstances, theories, reasons, twisted logic, X file fantasies, one in a million conditions, and just plain old excuses such as trivial cost concerns and laziness to do things the WRONG way...

And many times I have LITTERALLY watched things unfold on the internet where a "professional(s)" have harped over and over about how doing such and such is dangerous way to do something...and even sometimes told a SPECIFIC person or group of persons that they are an accident waiting to happen...and of course sometimes they dont listen....and you know what? On several occassions those hard heads quit posting......you know why? Because they DIED doing exactly what they were told not too.....

No wonder the true experts throw tantrums, rant and rave on the internet, or just leave....they get worn down and get tired of arguing with "dead men flying"....or caving or diving or whatever....when you watch people you are trying to help kill themselves, at best you become very frustrated and at worst you just no longer want to have any part of the process to avoid the pain you'll feel when you wonder what you could have said or done differently to save the determined victim....

But I can hear it now...."but my situation is different"...."I only do the simple, easy stuff".....etc etc ...but you know what? Those things the death defying professionals do is BUILT upon doing ALLLLL those little, simple task the RIGHT WAY.......and even more importantly....when the professional takes a break and decides to just do something simple and easy....99 times out of a 100 they will do that procedure the SAME DAMN way as when they are "cheating" death....

Now, part of the trick is deciding who is the "real professional" vs the blowhards, the liars, the wannabees, the self proclaimed expert, the old farts stuck in the old ways that are no longer the best way to do things, the people who do the RIGHT procedures for the WRONG reasons (ie they DONT understand the physics/engineering), the peope who do the WRONG procedures for the RIGHT reasons (they DO under the physics/engineering, but their safety/realworld implementation is WRONG), the new cutting edge folks who have actually found the better, safer way to do things and the new "cutting edge" folks who are doing it the wrong way and have just been lucky so far...the people with vested interest, the people with commerical interest, the mentally unstable, the people with an agenda and so on and so on....

Dont get me wrong here...I AM NOT trying to insult anyone here.....and I am not making any value judgements on anyone based on experience levels, interest, finances, circumstances .........

I'll be the first to admit that my PRACTICAL experience regarding aviation is nill....but this posting really isnt about aviation is it? AND I'll be the first to admit that at one time or another I've probably been in every single group described so far at one time or another.....

Another trick is to KNOW when KNOW what you are doing versus just THINKING you KNOW what your doing...read that again and think carefully about it...because you are probably betting your life on it....and perhaps the most valuable thing is to KNOW what you DONT KNOW, because that is where you can make yourself a safer, smarter, better person...

Now. if you insist on doing something the "wrong" way....you better make damn well sure you have REAL, VALID reasons for doing so....

Do this, go read all the old accident incident reports.....the FAA/NTSB has a very good online database that is very easy to use and VERY informative.....Then find this out....how many deaths were a direct result of doing something the RIGHT way (ie things along the lines of burning/drowning in a car because you used a seatbelt).....and I'll bet money that you find very few deaths due to doing something the right way.....now go look at how many deaths were the result of doing it the wrong way or your way....I'll bet you'll find MORE of those....and safety wise its even worse than it appears because for ever person/hour something was done the WRONG way...there are probably 10 to a hundred person/hours (from "professionals") in which it was done the RIGHT way.....and to skew the statistics even more in the favor of the right way.....consider that the professionals often do that "simple" task in conditions you would never dream of trying it in and they STILL manage to do it 10 to a 100 times safer!

Well, thats probably enough of a rant from me today......

I hope you read this and figure out where you fit in.....I know when I'm doing something new or dangerous I certainly try to figure out where I and everyone else fits in to the stuff I've just written...

Remember, you can wave your hands all your want and expand on theories till the cows come home....but one accident report is worth a thousand theory and excuses....

take care

Blll

[gyropilot]

some general observations here...its a long post about nutin in particular except safety and mindsets....Well said Bill!

John L.

[gyropilot]

Goes right in hand with the reluctance to take recurrent training and BFR's because there is a loophole in the regs to exempt them from having to show profficiency like the rest of aviation is required to do.Chuck,

Is there a loophole in the regulations that exempts a pilot from recurrent training or a BFR? Now that's one I've never heard about before!

Can you please expand on this issue?

Thanks,

John L.

[Harry_S.]

There are regulations ref. airspace,certificated aircraft, experimental aircraft, certificated airmen, certificated mechanics, certificated airports, ad nauseam.

*Professional* pilots need to be concerned and governed per these regs, as they well should be.

As regards the regulated airspace, any person utilizing an aircraft in that airspace, must be cognizant of and responsible for any violation.
Because of TFRs', the feds have grounded some people from flying. Is that fair? No, it's not but, that's the way it is, per the regs.

If a gyro driver is flying around his farm, that he just took off from, in his homebuilt machine, in unregulated airspace and not one instrument on board, has no legal obligations. Right? I know, see and avoid.

Now, if he requests and is assigned an N number, he's under another umbrella. You know, you can get an N number for your refrigerator if you want one, but why do that!

[KenSandyEggo]

Harry, I believe that as soon as your wheels leave the ground anywhere in the country, you are regulated by the feds. Matters not if it's your farm. ALL airspace is regulated in some manner. If it's over the ultralight weight, it must be registered with an "N" number and the pilot must have the proper sign-off from a CFI. If I'm wrong....blah-blah-blah.

[StanFoster]

I jsut took my BFR last week in a Cessna 152. I probably wont be back in a fixed wing until my next BFR is due in two years. I understand it is mandatory....thats the way I read it.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

I agree , professionals shold remain professional when responding or giving advice.

And in that it would seem that I can not reach that level with some in this group I am guilty of adding to my lack of professionalism by even trying to give advise. Especially in that my advise is taken as being demeaning and insulting to some here who already know all the answers anyhow.

Therefore for this group I am not a professional and will not even worry about it, I realize that regardless of how I attempt to pass on professional advice I will still be seen as an outsider to your little group.

So from now on just remember that I am not a professional in the gyro group.

And should I see fit to comment it will be based on just that commenting period.

And for those of you who do not like my attitude, no problem it can be mutual.

Someone mentioned how a few people who really are knowledgeable don't seem to post in this group anymore, I wonder why? :D

Chuck E.

[StanFoster]

Chuck: I for some reason just now noticed that line in all your posts that says...."The hardest thing about flying is when to say no"

I like that and it makes a lot of sense.

Stan

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Hi Stan :

The very last thing that I tell all my students once they have mastered the airplane and I sign their new type endorsement is to not let someone influnce them into doing anything that is unsafe and can expose them to a risk they may not be able to cope with.

Like all pilots I came up throught the ranks and was subjected to working for crooked owner, operators with crap aircraft. Also like all pilots I allowed fear of unemployment and fear of not finding another job to support my family to over ride my better judgement and I flew taking unnecessary risks........

Then one day I lost one friend to many to an accident caused by pushing the rules of safety, I was flying a DC3 at the time and decided that I would no longer fly in contrevention of the law, regulations and the rules of safety.

When asked to take an overload I refused to go one pound over the legal load and from that day on never accepted a flight that was illegal or put me at undue risk.

For decades I have continued to fly in this manner, sure there were a couple of employers who fired me for refusing to fly, but hey I am alive and my family were still looked after and are grown up with their own families.

Anyone can fly an aircraft, anyone can break the rules and some do and get away with it....I don't.

I have seen the mindset of chance taking and outright crimminal operation of aircraft for many decades and it exists in all areas of aviation right up to heavy jet transports, especially in third world countries.

To day I spent a long time on the phone dealing with a customer that wanted us to cut corners to deliver an airplane, we had told the customer that it was not negotiable we would not fly it without performing several serious checks, well the customer finally relented and agreed to do it our way. Guess what? When my partners dismanteled the propellors they were both corroded beyond being serviceable after sitting for eight years...........so now the customer is a little more pliable with regard to how we do things.

Oh by the way we also don't do anything without money up front.......lots of it. :D

The only regulator upon whom we can depend is ourselves, we are the bottom line when it comes to safety and conformance to the rules of safety.



A lot of people here do not understand how we live, we do not work in the normal world and deal with some of the most difficult people, cultures and countries on earth, so I guess I just come off as being crude and uncivilalized to some people here. Well maybe I am but once again maybe in our world one has to be like that to stay alive sometimes.

So when you look real close at my advice it may make some sense.

:D :D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D :D

Chuck E.

[Hognose]

The only regulator upon whom we can depend is ourselves, we are the bottom line when it comes to safety and conformance to the rules of safety.


Chuck, that post above is a distillation of the wisdom in three books that I always turn newbies on to: Tony Kern's airmanship trilogy. The three books are Redefining Airmanship, Flight Discipline, and Darker Shades of Blue: The Rogue Pilot. I read Darker Shades first and I remember thinking: Oh, my God, he's talking about me.

It was painful facing up to the fact that I was indisciplined in the air (and on the ground preparing to go into the air). It is a challenge to force myself to colour within the lines.

cheers

-=K=-

[StanFoster]

Chuck: I learned when to say no almost after it was too late. I obtained my private pilots license in Dec of 1983. Well..like a lot of new pilots..I just had to go to Osh Kosh the next year. Dad enjoyed the flight..and the Cherokee 180 soon touched down after a 2 hour flight.

We came home the same day and I was aware of some weather ahead. I listened to the weather report and decided to fly around the storm. My dad who is somewhat intimidating and it was his plane..just said.."Keep on straight ahead...I have flown through this stuff many times" I stupidly gave in and plowed straight ahead. It turned out as light rain..then moderate..then it was lighting and it looked like firehoses were flooding the windshield. I reverted back to my hood training..what little I had and did my best to keep this thing in the air. I can recall hitting 1000 feet a minute down drafts and then some strong updrafts. This went on for too long..then all of a sudden.....poooofff....out we came through the side of the storm and into bright glaring sunshine. Dad says..."See'...I told you" I just was relieved to still be alive so I could scold myself for allowing such an incident to occur.

Thats when I learned to say no.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Steven, there is a mechanism whereby you can get your wish that I not post here.

Bring enough pressure on the owner of this site to bar my ISP and then you will have your wish.

If you don't like my posts, just don't read them, surely you have enough neurons to grasp that concept. :D :D

Chuck E.

[rtfm]

[QUOTE=Harry_S.]...some *Smiling Jack* type interrupted my radio conversation, and asked my altitude, I would simply eye-ball my altimeter and reply, " 350 ft. AGL. If he's concerned, let him do the math.[QUOTE]
Hi Harry_S,
I find it hard to contain my disdain for the comment you made above. It betrays an arrogance which should have no place in the air. Leave this sort of thing for boozy bar-room flying as you swop war stories with your mates. If I were flying along, suspected you were in my vicinity and asked for your altitude - I'd expect the sort of answer which would help keep us both alive.

I had an uncle once who drove his car into another vehicle on the road. His defiant defence from his hospital bed was that "Why the hell should I have to swerve? HE was in the wrong!" Your attitude isn't a lot different.

Shame on you.

Duncan

[Harry_S.]

Duncan;

You're as wrong as you are on the wrong side of the globe.
I was being facetious--how 'bout you?

Let's keep in mind here; just almost everyone here is or wants to fly gyro's. I don't believe anyone has the instrumentation of Dr.Clem' gyro. I don't need a radio to fly at un-controlled airports and/or in un-controlled airspace. If I don't have a transceiver on board Smilin' Jack would be whistlin' in the wind, inside his multi-engine behemoth.

[Blll]

Harry....

The attitude of your last post says volumes.....actually it pretty much says it all....and the sad thing is you probably cant even see that fact....

Blll

[Harry_S.]

Enlighten me Bill.

I don't understand the intent of your post and/or what your insinuating.

[ventana7]

Harry,

I am a fixed wing pilot who is fairly new to the gyro world but I have plans for some extensive cross country flying in my gyro. I was discouraged to read in a previous post on this forum that gyros are not welcomed at some airports.

Just wondering if you have any idea why that might be?

Rob

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Ventana7 :

Gyros are seen by a lot of general aviation as being a fringe group and this impression is brought on by a segement of the gyro group being non conformists with the beliefe they do not need to bother with proceedures and rules the rest of aviation must comply with.

Read these forums and you will find that mentality quite evident by the mind set that is clearly stated by a few.

As long as this mentality is front and center in gyro flying we will be treated as outlaws and not welcome at many airports because general aviation expects other pilots to live by the same rules as they are mandated to live by.

In a perfect world those who view any pilots who fly by set rules and regulations as smiling Jacks in their high tech machines would not be seen by others as they would be flying out of site of other aircraft and the public.....sadly that does not happen, thus a small segment of gyro pilots make everyone look like outlaws. It all depends on your attitude how other pilots preceive you.

But I also have often wondered why it seems that it is mostly gyros that are viewed as dangerous by many.

When in fact they should be viewed as the safest.

Chuck E.

[ventana7]

Chuck E,

Thanks for your reply. I knew the answer when I posted the question but I was hoping the Harry's of this world would reflect a bit on how their bad attitude affects how all of aviation views gyros.

BTW sorry I missed you at Bensen- you departed the day I arrived.

Rob

[cgmg]

Ventana7,

I have to agree with Chuck regarding the "outlaw" gyro pilot reputation.

Shortly after I soloed, I wanted to rent hangar space at a local municipal airport. When I spoke to the manager requesting permission to use the airstrip and rent a hangar, he was pretty blunt about never landing on the grass, the taxiway, or anywhere near the hangars. I agreed with him, and explained that my goal was to improve my proficiency with a long runway, and if I was ever doing anything the manager was uncomfortable with, to please let me know. The manager had had experience with some of our less than sterling gyro pilots at a previous airport, and said he was really reluctant to give me a chance. What we agreed to was that for one month, I could trailer to the airport, fly, and trailer home. If that arrangement worked out, I could rent a hangar.

I rented space there for six months, and have a great relationship with the manager to this day, since he saw that I followed the rules as expected. He still asks me to fly in more frequently when he sees me. It probably takes a hundred gyro pilots following the rules to overcome the one cretin who doesn't, and I didn't want to add to the stigma.

Even when the gyro is in the right in a situation, GA pilots still see us as the trouble-makers. Once while I was training, and twice with my wife, our instructor had to abort a landing due to GA fixed wing pilots landing downwind, unnanounced, into our landing path. All 3 of them complained on the radio about those damn gyros getting in their way, when it appeared they were too lazy to fly the pattern, announce their intentions, or check for other traffic using the runway properly.

Not sure how to correct those situations, but I do my best to be courteous and follow the proper procedures on the few occasions I do frequent a local airport.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Mark:

The answer lies in self policing and encouraging new gyro pilots to go to reputable training schools or instructors.....we have a lot in the gyro movement already...

I do not really have time now to follow what is going on but have noticed a movement towards proper safe designs and more training schools that are conforming to the rest of aviation.

There is nothing wrong with flying gyros for fun, however with that fun goes the responsibility not to be seen as a outlaw stunt pilot that turns the rest of aviation against gyros.

The best vehicle for change is forums like Norms and this one.......sadly some of our more knowledgeable contributors got fed up with having to argue the same simple things over and over.

I see Chuck Beaty finally came here, thank God for that, one other member I would like to see come back is Craig Wall.

You must understand that I have not had the time to really get into the gyro instructing mode, but I have a set of Ron Herrons plans and that will be my next move. A two place Little Wing with a Radial.

Like Craig I just can not tolerate people who make gyros look bad.

Chuck E.

[Aussie_Paul]

Great post Chuck E.

Aussie Paul.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Hi Paul :

How goes the battle?

I still hope to get down your way before I kick off and have you give me some quality recurrent training, sadly I do not get much chance to fly gyros lately, and in my business we "always " get recurrent training on any types that we do not fly regularly...................that is one reason I'm still here.

I was supposed to retire from all the overseas flying but no matter what I do someone lures me back to do more...this year I have gotten involved in no less than five different flying jobs, fu.k me don't these people realize I want do do something else before I die besides fly their damn new toys?

By the way that Birdy looks like the kind of character that would be fun to get to know.

And Birdy, I can tell you right now the gyro is way better for stalking cattle than an R22, I used to own a helicopter flight training school and owned an R 22. They are good little machines but judging by the way you describe the flying you do you would pull the rotors right off a little Robbie.

Chuck E.

[GyroRon]

Chuck E. was at Bensen Days??? Gee I would have liked to have had a chance to shake his hand.