CFI Pop Quiz #118 - Minimum Safe

[Chris Burgess]

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, what is the minimum safe altitude for a pilot to operate an aircraft anywhere?

A) An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
B) An altitude of 500 feet above the surface and no closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
C) An altitude of 500 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 1000 feet.

[chuter]

Although I think I've read "B" and "C" somewhere, I'm going with "A".

[brett s]

Semi trick question, with the key word being "anywhere" :)

"A" would be correct, with other limits on horizontal & vertical clearance applying in "congested areas" or "other than congested areas" unless you are flying a helicopter.

[JByrd]

A - Sec. 91.119

Jim

[mark treidel]

"A" is correct. Avoid danger to persons or property. Keep 'em coming Chris, this is good for everybody here. kudos

[Chris Burgess]

"A" is correct and as Brett says, this is almost a trick question. You need to read carefully. The word "anywhere" does determine this answer found in 91.119 (a). This is the one the FAA can pull out if you hit something making an engine out landing. Helicopters must also comply with answer "A".

[Rotornut]

Thanks, Chris, Brett, Still Learning This is Great.. Thanks Chris. MJ :)
Brett will you be able to make it to BD Days?

[ventana7]

Chris
I would love to hear a ruling on this one as the FAR's have a different reg for helicopter and fixed wing-- which do you think we come under?

[Chris Burgess]

This is quite clear Rob. You are an "aircraft", you are not a "helicopter". 14 CFR 91.119 begins with the word "aircraft", so it applies to both. The break comes at (d) when "helicopters" are specifically addressed. You do not have these rights in a gyroplane as you do not meet the definition of a helicopter. When in doubt, go to the "base" statement, then look for the breakdowns.

[automan1223]

I got the 2006 far book and now it does specifically call out heli's in the 91.119 d. However I thought it was not that specific, maybe they changed it.

I thought it used to say rotorcraft or something it was vague. I acutally asked a CFI about this a few months ago and was told gyros are rotorcraft and can fly under helicopter regs. I will have to dig thru the 04 and 05 far to see if this changed.

Jonathan

[Rotornut]

Gosh, This Brings back many memories of Charlie Presnell to Me!
Spread Your Wings Charlie see you at BD Days 2006. MJ :)

[ventana7]

Chris,
Thanks for that input. That does sound pretty difinitive. I don't have the FAR's or the time at the moment but I do remember finding other places where the word helicopters is used but clearly they meant rotorcraft.

[KenSandyEggo]

At Montgomery Field in San Diego, the published "ROTORCRAFT" pattern is 200ft. AGL. It sits right in the city and that really feels low. I've flown in there numerous times. It's about 15 miles from my former home field.

[Chris Burgess]

Rob, I'll give you one to look up. 14 CFR 91.126 (a) and (b)(1)and (2). What would you do as a "gyroplane pilot"? This is just an opinion I want, then I'll let you know what I think.

Ken, unless there is a good reason not to fly higher (traffic on-top or above) I personally would fly high enough to meet the requirement stated in "A" of my original question. 91.119 (a) An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

[Chuck Roberg]

Rob, I'll give you one to look up. 14 CFR 91.126 (a) and (b)(1)and (2). What would you do as a "gyroplane pilot"? This is just an opinion I want, then I'll let you know what I think.

In my opinion (1) basically states only F/W aircraft are to fly a standard or posted pattern. That would lead me to think Trikes and Gyro's could fly a nonstandard pattern opposite to the F/W traffic. Helicopters and PPW's should avoid the flow of F/W aircraft and really don't have to fly a pattern.

If I'm incorrect, won't be the first time. :rolleyes:

I posted the appropriate FAR below so all could read it.






§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter

or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.

(c) Flap settings. Except when necessary for training or certification, the pilot in command of a civil turbojet-powered aircraft must use, as a final flap setting, the minimum certificated landing flap setting set forth in the approved performance information in the Airplane Flight Manual for the applicable conditions. However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necessary in the interest of safety.

(d) Communications with control towers. Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower unless two-way radio communications are maintained between that aircraft and the control tower. Communications must be established prior to 4 nautical miles from the airport, up to and including 2,500 feet AGL. However, if the aircraft radio fails in flight, the pilot in command may operate that aircraft and land if weather conditions are at or above basic VFR weather minimums, visual contact with the tower is maintained, and a clearance to land is received. If the aircraft radio fails while in flight under IFR, the pilot must comply with §91.185.

[Doc. No. 24458, 56 FR 65658, Dec. 17, 1991, as amended by Amdt. 91–239, 59 FR 11693, Mar. 11, 1994; Amdt. 91–282, 69 FR 44880, July 27, 2004]

[Chris Burgess]

Hey Chuck, You've kind of hit on my point. They do not directly address gyro's. They do address helicopters and powered parachutes. We certainly are not airplanes, but neither are we helicopters or powered parachutes. If the pattern is busy, I'll fly opposite traffic, ie right hand pattern. If the pattern is empty, I will fly standard (left hand) unless otherwise indicated.

Three FAA guys told me the regs only address "approach to" and "departure from". They do not address the "actual" pattern. They suggested to fly in lower and closer than all others. We have heavy helicopter traffic and also heavy fixed-wing and cooperate jet traffic, and towed gliders most weekends. The airport established "suggested" traffic flow for helicopters, fixed-wing, and gliders. We do fly opposite the fixed-wingers in most cases, lower and inside.

Earlier in Mid-Air collisions, I said the most likely mid-air is getting "run over" by a faster aircraft or converging. I think it is safer to fly opposite the faster guys and never loose sight of them. Don't let them get behind you on final. Make a Base Leg. Use it to look for that traffic on a long final. You might also dog-leg your final to keep traffic in sight.

[ventana7]

Chris,

I also do what you do- regarding the pattern. The bottom line is safety-- I would far rather argue my case for why I did what I did against the FAA than St. Peter.

On my trip around the US I flew to something like 140 airports - no class B but lots of BUSY class C. One guy with jet traffic put me on a 6 mile straight in. -- I said something like -- I only go 60 knots - you may have half a dozen planes before I get there. In another instance I had a controller put me in the pattern even though he had seen my speed on radar for 10 miles. When I was on short final he asked me to sidestep and land on a taxiway while a jet landed paralell to me on the runway.

In general in busy uncontrolled airport's I found my best bet was to drop down below FW pattern before I got within the lateral boundry of the pattern Then I knew I was likely out of everyone's way (below them) until I was on final. Only time this was a problem was in dicey terrain.
I also found it expeditious to turn close in base at the end of the runway or even part way down the runway then just land right at the taxiway turn-off.
By doing these things you are in effect almost never in airspace where a FW is likely to be.

[Chris Burgess]

Good information Rob. I'm sure it was an experience of a lifetime. If a controller tells you to do something that you consider unsafe, let them know. I had one tell me to report a 5 mile final when we were 10 miles out. About 5 minutes later, he's asking where we are. Well, in a 30mph headwind going maybe 30mph over the ground, we were still on our way to that "5 mile report". Let them know you are slow moving. Many of the airports don't get to see gyro's very often and they fail to recognize or plan for our "slow" groundspeed. If you're north of an airport and they tell you to report south for the pattern, request a north entry. If you don't "piss" them off for some reason, they will usually cooperate and give you what you request.

[jdalexa]

A thing also to consider and to know about is what sort of IFR approach is there at the airport to which you are flying.

At Watts-Woodland (041) (rwys 18-36) where I'm based, there is a VOR-A approach that comes in from the east and crosses at close to 90 degrees to the runway. Minimum circling is 800 MSL (airport is 125 MSL). I fly the pattern at about 600 to give vertical separation from the fixed wings who should be at 1000. Yeah... incoming IFR approachers are just about where I am.

I'm always watching off to the east extra carefully when I'm in the pattern.