"Looping, Rolling, and Floating" [Archive]

Al_Hammer

01-12-2006, 09:42 AM

Duncan, helicopters have fully powered rotors, but it doesn't make the loop any safer for a machine with a teetering rotor.
(It is possible to do it and it has been done in everything from a Bell-47 to a Jet Ranger, but its nowhere near as easy as it is in a rigid rotor helicopter like the Bolkow. I posted a video of a Bolkow giving a reporter a ride from Hell, in a thread somewhere. Its a treat.)

The problem isn't necessarily loss of rpm in low g, although that is ONE problem.
It's the fact that the rotor loses its ability to control the fuselage.
If the gyro is upside down the body is able to simply fall off to the side and into the rotor below. The body is "weightless" in zero g.
Unfortunately, we control the gyro by using the weight of the body to pull down (at the cg) while the rotor pulls up. No weight pulling on the cg- no control.

A roll is like a loop. At least a barrel roll is. positive G's are maintained at all times.
A straight roll, where you just push the stick over and go inverted will not maintain g's and you would fall out of the seat if not strapped in, among other pleasures.
Chuck Beaty tells of seeing a pilot doing continuous consecutive barrel rolls in a Bensen.

Jason,
I think you are right. Jim Vaneck says he worked up to doing loops and used to blow it sometimes. He would roll out of the loop and recover.
Not saying its easy, just unforgiving if you get too far behind the machine.
Once the rotor loses rpm, the blades tend to snap off.

karlbamforth

01-12-2006, 09:47 AM

I think its best to remember that gyro's were not designed to be upside down.

The few rotorcraft that can be turned upside down, were specially designed to do so and have a completely different rotor head design.
Look at all the gyro accidents round the world, A lot of ppl have difficulty keeping them the right way up in normal flight conditions.
If you do have a death wish just fly it into planet earth, at least you will be sure of where the wreckage will end up.

krew

01-12-2006, 08:06 PM

Ga6riel

01-12-2006, 10:36 PM

of course rolls have been done in all sorts of aircraft that shound never be anything than the right way up
the 707 demo for one
and I heard of a pilot who did it with an Avro Lancaster bomber citing, 'if you maintain 1G all round the roll the aircraft can handle it'

I dont doubt it can be done, but the thing about gyros would be one word, unforgiving
as with many helos on losing power, u have 2 seconds to get to autorotate, after that the rotors fold.

krew

01-12-2006, 10:47 PM

scottessex

01-13-2006, 02:37 AM

Jason, see if you can find a copy or a downloadable FAA rotorcraft flying handbook. some of the reading is dry and typical of a government publication.
But is is full of good useful info, and you will have to read it anyway once you try to eventually get a lisence.
Another good book is Gyroplane Flying for beginners, by Patrick Howell.

http://www.gyrosaway.com/Books.htm

Gyroplane Flying For Beginners
A Guide to Getting Your Gyroplane License
photo; G&S Gremminger
by Patrick Howell, CFI (Gyroplanes).
Highly recommended by Don Farrington and Wing Commander Ken Wallis. The only comprehensive guide for novice gyroplane pilots.

* Preliminaries to gaining a license * personal health and fitness * how a gyroplane works * gyroplane controls and instruments * clothing and personal equipment * general safety precautions * runways and traffic patterns * right of way * radio and air traffic control signals * pre-flight preparations and inspections * start, taxi and shutdown * take offs-climbs, straight and level flight and descents * turns, including steep turns * final approach, landings and go arounds * slow flight and other unusual flight conditions * ground reference maneuvers * going solo * altimetry and weather limitations * cross country flying * night flying * emergencies * the check ride * your own machine * future gyroplane design * Federal Aviation Regulations * study material *glossary * gyroplane performance notes.

145 pages, including a wealth of illustrations, on Compact Disk (Windows 98).
$19.95 includes US postage. Please airmail cash or personal check (sorry, no credit cards) to Patrick Howell at 6 Millers Bank, Broom, Alcester, Warwickshire B50 4HZ, United Kingdom -delivery by return airmail.
e-mail hotfoothowell@hotmail.com, Phone/fax 01144 1789 773801.

FAA Rotorcraft Flying Handbook

The Basic Helicopter Handbook (Advisory Circular 61-13B) has been rewritten and renamed the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook. Written for applicants preparing for the private, commercial, or flight instructor certificate with a helicopter or gyroplane class rating, the book is also valuable to flight instructors as a teaching aid. Both aeronautical knowledge and skill for operating rotorcraft are covered. The book is broken into two sections: the first dedicated to helicopters, and the second dedicated to gyroplanes. Each section includes chapters covering aerodynamics, flight controls, systems, the rotorcraft flight manual, flight maneuvers, emergencies, and aeronautical decision making. In addition, the helicopter section includes chapters on weight and balance, performance, attitude instrument flying, and night operations. The book concludes with a comprehensive glossary and index. This new FAA-H-8083-21 replaces the AC 61-13B, and is the official source for all rotorcraft questions appearing on the FAA Knowledge Exams. 8 1/4" x 10 3/4", full color, 208-page soft cover format, includes both a glossary and index; illustrated throughout.

Al_Hammer

01-13-2006, 04:02 AM

Why would the rotors fold after 2 seconds, and why can it only autorotate for 2 seconds? If a gyro can autorotate to a safe landing, why can't a helicopter? Because the angle of the rotor?

Jason, the helicopter doesn't fly in autorotation mode, so there is a lot of pitch in the blades. If you lose power, the pitch must be immediately lowered by the pilot to start autorotation. Otherwise, the rpm bleeds off and centrifugal force can no longer hold the blades straight out-they "cone" up and will often break under the strain.
If you lower the collective, then the helicopter can autorotate just fine.

jdalexa

01-13-2006, 05:24 PM

Mike said it right. You can do it wrong only once. There is absolutely no margin for error with looping a gyro. You get it right or you die. Not like in a fixed wing - even at low altitude.

I'm actually pretty appauled that they use this for marketing

Doug Riley

01-18-2006, 08:52 AM

John, you're not the only one who's appalled.

Frank Zarzycki

01-18-2006, 09:09 AM

I have seen rolls done in a Bensen done by a man named Carl Hinshaw of Lake Wales Fl. I have it some wheres on a tape given to me by Bill Parsons

Master Roda

02-01-2006, 12:26 PM

Main factor in a successfull loop: rotor head speed
Second: proper throttle control

Just my opinion

gyro

02-01-2006, 01:54 PM

Al Hammer , where is this video? I serach the threads and came up empty.
I posted a video of a Bolkow giving a reporter a ride from Hell, in a thread somewhere. Its a treat.)

Cheers Paul

Heather Poe

02-01-2006, 02:31 PM

Paul,
The original link (found in http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4296) is broken, see http://tvtotal.prosieben.de/components/videoplayer/0698/0698-00-06-wm_midband.html?mode. It takes a while to start up, since it is based in Germany. If anyone can capture this video and send it to me a file, I would appreciate it.
thanks,
Heather

Master Roda

02-01-2006, 03:12 PM

Sportcopter does not endorse flying of this kind in any way shape or form. In fact if you refer to the back of the DVD it says "This DVD is for your ENTERTAINMENT ONLY. No other person or pilot should attempt these aerobatic maneuvers in a gyroplane." The only marketing objective is to get people interested and comfortable knowing that sportcopters product will not destroy itself in these manuevers. That being said, Jim Vanek is the only person approved by the FAA to perform them anyway.

gyro

02-01-2006, 06:25 PM

Thanks Heather.....great video!! If you go to your temp files after you veiw the video it will be in there. you can save it to anyplace on your computer and view it anytime or send it as a file.

Paul

PW_Plack

02-02-2006, 01:03 AM

If seeing aerobatics for marketing purposes appalls you, stay away from airshows. I saw Sean Tucker do things in a Pitts that would kill many pilots, and it was sponsored by Oracle.

All the other major acts had sponsors, too.

Matthew Parsons

02-02-2006, 01:27 AM

If you maintain sufficient positive 'g' the rotor will still control the helicopter. If you don't you can be in trouble.

Other things to consider (not a complete list):
- Airspeed on entry could drop too much causing control issues.
- Airspeed on pulling out of a loop could exceed limitations causing structural damage or control problems
- Recovery following engine failure may not be possible during parts of the manoeuvre.
- If sufficient positive g is not maintained, engine fuel and oil systems may fail.
- The dynamics of the manoeuvre may surprise you. The load on the rotor will be changing much more quickly than in normal flight so control of rotor speed will be more difficult.
Just because people have done things in the past, doesn't make it safe. Professionals would have considered all the risks, found ways to mitigate them, and then worked themselves slowly up to the point where they can complete a manoeuvre.

In the end, its just not worth it. It is just as fun to fly aerobatics in something that is certified, so pay a few hundred $ to have your jollies rather than a few thousand to fix your machine, or worse.

Ga6riel, after 2 seconds the rotors of a helicopter won't fold, but the rotor speed may not recover to normal power off limits. Also, the 2 seconds is just what is required to be demonstrated, not what will happen. Depending on the condition of flight the rotor speed may never decay below the power off range.

animal

02-02-2006, 06:56 AM

Duncan, helicopters have fully powered rotors, but it doesn't make the loop any safer for a machine with a teetering rotor.
(It is possible to do it and it has been done in everything from a Bell-47 to a Jet Ranger, but its nowhere near as easy as it is in a rigid rotor helicopter like the Bolkow. I posted a video of a Bolkow giving a reporter a ride from Hell, in a thread somewhere. Its a treat.)

Al I have read somewhere that the test pilot for Enstrom did 5 loops with a 1974 F-28A at a helicopter demo. not sure where it was.but when I asked the guy I am buying mine from about it. he said he has personnally ridden with a guy that pulled into a half loop and at the top spun it around and came back down.

Nice to know they are they strong,but I sure don't care to go inverted in a chopper.

I wonder if anyone else has read about or has more info on that helicopter demo of the F28A, I just found the magizine that I heard about it in.It was in a 1974 copy of air progress magizine when the guy wrote a story about the Enstrom and went for a ride with the pilot Michael Meger. would love to see pics of that.in the artical in the magizine they said he did split S then pulls vertical untill untill he loses airspeed and flys backwards with the nose still pointed high. I have see a video of a brit pilot doing a demo where he pulls it vertical and hammer heads at the top. but to see the helicopter roll inverted the split S would be wild for sure.

From what I under stand they have a very tight elastomeric rotor system that flys like a Ridgid rotor. I did not know that a bell 47 or jet ranger had ever been looped but with the teetering rotor all I can say is NO THANKS!

If anyone else has info on the looping Enstrom,I would love to hear about it.

I do have to agree that showing that a gyro can loop in your sale info might lead someone new to gyros to think hey if he can do it so can I.
Hows that famous redneck saying go? Hey guys watch this!

MikeBoyette

02-02-2006, 10:42 AM

I too have seen Carl Hinshaw doing barrel rolls, but that doesn't make it safe. Doing loops and rolls in a gyro is like playing russian roulet. Any gyro with enough thrust can do these things. It is not that a Sport Copter is the only gyro that can do, it is that Mr. Vanek is the only one who chooses to do it. Carl used to do barrel rolls one right after another at 400 ft. He once did it right over the parked airplanes at Lake Wales and then flew off to his strip. The airport manager just saw it was a gyro and came out and screemed at us. We tried to explain it wasn't us, but all he knew was it was a gyro so it had to be us. By the way Carl was a P51 pilot in WWII and he was an old bold pilot. He used to do barrel rolls in a Balanca with four people on board. He also put his gyro in the lake at the end of his runway one time while doing a flat spin. He was looking up counting how many smoke rings he left and at the last second realized he was too low and hit the flag pole in the center of the lake. Dad rebuilt his gyro that time. Carl died about 7 or 8 years ago of old age.

mceagle

02-02-2006, 02:31 PM

"Looping, rolling and floating"

What is "Floating"

MikeBoyette

02-02-2006, 02:40 PM

Tim,
I think he is interested in a gyro flying off floats. This is another thing that is touted in advertisments. It too has been done, but is dangerous.

landman

02-02-2006, 02:43 PM

aww shuks, t'aint nutt'n to loop and roll. Just flare real high, about 20 feet, above the runway with no power and lett'r sink. Just afore hittin the tarmak give'er full throttle. The rotor and tail smak'n the ground will cause her to loop and shee'l lean over from the torque and roll once or twice whan the land'n geer sheers off.

Been there, done that, eat your heart out Vanek.

Martin:eek:

Master Roda

02-02-2006, 03:06 PM

"Floating" means removing the wheels and attaching a pair of lotus floats. With the standard vortex this performs very well as it has a water rudder that counters the prerotation. I personally video taped Jim in the video. He did'nt seem to have any problem flying it, landing it, or beaching it. Sportcopter has this as an option.

P.S.
The water rudder also retracts (when beaching,transporting, or after takeoff).

scott heger

02-02-2006, 10:15 PM

The best way to ruin a great flying gyro like a SportCopter is to put floats on it. I bet it flys half the speed safely and is less stable in anything other than straight and level low speed flight. Watch the video, even Jim V is not going to crank around a float equipped gyro very much.

I have enjoyed watching Jim fly in person and the videos. His skills and gyro are better than most. I agree that the risk of doing loops far exceeds what most pilots are willing to do. However he is hardly a weekend pilot, and his flying skills (when we have flown together) is flawless. He is not a reckless man, and has no death wish. Yes, he is the only one that I am aware of that holds a current FAA aerobatic gyro endorsement in the U.S.A.; I think that is for doing airshow performances only. All you want-a-be gyro loopers, just go out to unresticted airspace and legally have at it. I will be watching you from the ground with my cell phone handy. Somebody has to make the call to the coroner.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

C. Beaty

02-03-2006, 07:07 AM

Carl Hinshaw of Lake Wales FL spent more time upside-down than rightside-up in his stock Bensen doing barrel rolls.

Roger Wood of Cincinnati used to regularly loop his stock Bensen.

I imagine such individuals are suffering from testosterone poisoning.

GyroRon

02-03-2006, 07:24 AM

maybe I will try a loop at Bensen Days....

MikeBoyette

02-03-2006, 10:46 AM

Ron,
I tripple dog dare Ya!!! LOL.. Just kidding I don't want to have to pick up the body parts.

Doug Riley

02-03-2006, 11:47 AM

If someone really is testosterone-poisoned enough to do this, he should check out the ways that others have sneaked up on loops. They've flown steeper and steeper banks, past 90 degrees, a few degrees at a time. That's the way Johnny Miller pioneered the first gyro loops; others -- Roger Wood, Ken Brock and I imagine Jim Vanek -- followed suit.

I have the least respect for those who do it in order to fool a naive customer into thinking that there's something special about a Brand X gyro that allows it to loop "safely." All 1-place kit pusher gyros are close clones of the Bensen. Their looping potential doesn't vary much from brand to brand with a given amount of horsepower.

Doing loops for your own private pleasure is less contemptible, as long as (1) you aren't leaving heirs who will be turned out on the street when the money stops coming in and (2) you don't do it over people or people's breakable property. Even then, you're doing a certain disservice to the rest of us gyro flyers when you go out and kill yourself, especially at one of our gatherings. A fatal splat really puts the damper on the fun at a flyin.

Heather Poe

02-03-2006, 01:01 PM

They've flown steeper and steeper banks...I imagine Jim Vanek -- followed suit."
That is exactly how Jim Vanek learned to loop, as described in the book "Born Free, My Life in Gyrocopters" by Marion Springer, Appendix A, page 55. To order, see http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2466.

Matthew Parsons

02-03-2006, 03:27 PM

Just because there's an incremental approach, it doesn't mean the machine can handle it. It also doesn't mean you will successfully fly it each time. Try repeating any manoeuvre precisely the same and I'm sure you'll agree.

Lets be blunt. There's no reason to roll so don't do it.

Heather Poe

02-03-2006, 04:50 PM

I think of it as like the incremental approach to winning at Russian Roulette; it works fine until it doesn't. Just say no to loops and rolls.

Timchick

02-03-2006, 06:04 PM

I think it's neat to watch Jim do it on video and I'd like to see him do it in-person some day. It's kind of like going to see the Thunderbirds or the Blue Angels. It's fun to watch but it's best to leave that stuff to the professionals.

mceagle

02-03-2006, 09:29 PM

An incremental approach to the pilot learning how to do a loop means stuff all to the engine.

PW_Plack

02-04-2006, 12:28 PM

Jim did not work up incrementally to the loop. I'm not sure where that misquote started. He says he studied the forces, went over it in his mind, even borrowed his dad's gravity boots to hang inverted while thinking about it. In actual flight, he had to be ready to commit, or not start.

How would you do half a loop and survive? "Working up to a loop" would be like learning to skydive in stages by putting off learning to open the chute till your second flight.

Increasing angles of bank will eventually lead to a roll, not a loop. Jim does say that's how he approached the roll, and that his first one was a sloppy one as a result.

I shake my head every time this controversy comes up. Carmakers compete in NASCAR auto racing, not to set a good example for new drivers, but because they believe it drives sales. These are purpose-built race cars with nothing mechanical in common with cars sold to the public. There's nothing about the winning car that is meaningful in predicting a superior showroom product for consumers.

Looking at the marketing practices taken for granted across the business world in general, I find it humorous to see how the little world of gyroplanes gets so grumpy over Jim's aerobatics. I have a bigger problem with the influence of "America's Funniest Videos" or "Jackass" on TV.

Doug Riley

02-04-2006, 12:44 PM

Paul, read Johnny Miller's accounts of learning to loop in old issues of the PRA mag. He describes doing steeper and steeper banks (wingovers, if you like) until he was going just short of upside down and finishing the maneuver just short of the exact heading he started with. They were not rolls or near-rolls because of the large changes in heading. He says that he saved doing the perfectly-inverted version until the occasion of a public demo.

Ken Brock's banks exceeded 90 degrees. I don't know if he ever did loops in private for his own amusement; he didn't do them in public.

Roger Wood worked up his "bloop" as a sort of loop-roll-wingover blend.

Working up from steep banks allows you a chance to escape if you lose too much airspeed. You'll need to develop a feel for how much excess airspeed and back pressure it's going to take to carry you through without slowing down so much when inverted that you fall out.

Another old PRA mag described a fatal crash in which just this happened to a pilot who got very frisky while he still had pretty low hours. He built up airpseed, pulled up past vertical to inverted, and then fell out of it. He dropped upside-down onto a residential street, luckily killing only himself.

C. Beaty

02-04-2006, 02:36 PM

I shake my head every time this controversy comes up. Carmakers compete in NASCAR auto racing, not to set a good example for new drivers, but because they believe it drives sales. These are purpose-built race cars with nothing mechanical in common with cars sold to the public. There's nothing about the winning car that is meaningful in predicting a superior showroom product for consumers.

You are quite right Paul. The general public is a gullible, ignorant lot that has no idea that the rear wheel drive NASCAR race car that superficially resembles their front wheel drive Ford or Chevy is any different.

I read somewhere or the other that fully 50% of US adults can’t compute fuel mileage given nothing more than gas pump and odometer readings.

I expect the tiny segment of the public that gravitates toward gyros is fairly representative.

Federal and State regulations protect the automobile buying public from themselves and from flimflam artists.

The only protection for gyro buyers is the collective wisdom of the gyro community.

Matthew Parsons

02-04-2006, 02:40 PM

Plack,

Your presumably unintentional comparison between NASCAR drivers and gyrocopter "amateurs" (no disrespect intended) is disturbing. Yes, the names being tossed around of those who have flown aerobatics do correlate to professional drivers, but those that will react to these answers (predominantly private pilots and hobbyists) are wondering if gyrocopters in general can loop. The answer to that is clearly NO...they shouldn't.

An incremental approach to looping is not only possible, it is advisable. A slant loop is more difficult to fly precisely (due to references), but the recovery from a bad position is less difficult. As the angle of the loop increases, more dynamic changes will be seen, errors will occur and recovery will become more and more difficult, but the techniques will be learned.

Of course, this still doesn't mean the machine can take it.

Cobra Doc

02-04-2006, 06:17 PM

As many times as I've seen Ken Brock perform, I never saw him loop or break 90 degrees in a bank. If you really watch during the rare military helicopter demos where they loop, they never go straight over the top. They will go over at about 85 degrees, never 90 degrees. We are talking about the very high power nimble helicopters. The way it was told to me, by looping just off the vertical, the pilot has better chance of maintaining positive pressure on the blades. If somebody with nearly 4000 shaft horsepower and four blades at their disposal won't go over the top, why in the he77 would any sane gyro pilot want to get upside down? I skydive, rapel out of helicopters, climb rocks and ride motorcycles but you will never catch me deliberatly trying to get a gyro up-side-down. Some things are just too dangerous to try. I really don't want to read about any of you folks in our weekly "splatter reports".

PW_Plack

02-05-2006, 12:18 AM

Doug, Jim Vanek's loop is not a blend of anything, just straight up and over, without deviation from the line of the original heading, no component of roll, unless density altitude interferes. I'll look into John Miller's accounts, but it doesn't sound like the same maneuver.

Matthew, you lost me. I believe Jim Vanek is analogous to a NASCAR driver, and the idiots who "try this at home" are analogous to NASCAR spectators who mimic professionals but without the training, skill or safety precautions.

Matthew Parsons

02-05-2006, 12:42 AM

Paul,

You said, "These are purpose-built race cars with nothing mechanical in common with cars sold to the public." The gyros being discussed are stock, not designed for looping.

You said, "Carmakers compete in NASCAR auto racing, not to set a good example for new drivers, but because they believe it drives sales." The thread was full of non-"NASCAR" pilots wondering if they could/should be doing this.

I said that you unintentionally compared the NASCAR Pros to the private pilots.

Now do you see my point?

GyroRon

02-05-2006, 02:32 AM

Tried it yesterday, was a piece of cake!

karlbamforth

02-05-2006, 03:20 AM

Ron,

Looks like that fancy gravestone may be yours sooner than later. :D

Turning gyros upside down is dangerous, turning pictures upside down is just a death wish.:D

Doug Riley

02-05-2006, 07:03 AM

Paul, I didn't say that Vanek fails to go perfectly upside down. I also didn't say that Miller failed to go upside down. I know nothing about what Vanek does beyond what I have heard. I have no reason to doubt that he goes completely upside down, however.

Johnny Miller did, too. What I reported was his comment that he saved the perfect-inversion loop until he had a big crowd (he too, was in the promotion business). He also said, however, that he would not loop a direct-cyclic machine. The craft he looped were controlled by ailerons and elevators which, of course, don't lose any of their effectiveness at low, zero, or negative G.

Johnny was already a college-trained engineer when he started flying gyros.

Ga6riel

02-05-2006, 08:32 AM

lmao ~ interesting Ron
the sun seems to be in the direction of the ground

C. Beaty

02-05-2006, 08:35 AM

From Cierva Autogiros by Peter W. Brooks:

“…The test pilot, Stackenberg, with characteristic French êlan is reported to have looped a LeO C-30, at Sommesous thus achieving what was claimed to be the first such maneuver by a rotary-wing aircraft—in fact the first Autogiro loops had been performed in the United States in PCA-2’s eight years before in 1931. Nevertheless, Stackengerg’s may well have been the first loop by direct-control Autogiro. As early as 1925, Cierva had predicted that loops in Autogiros were possible….”

mceagle

02-05-2006, 02:44 PM

and the idiots who "try this at home" are analogous to NASCAR spectators who mimic professionals but without the training, skill or safety precautions.Paul you have answered the question yourself of why it is not a good idea.
There will be "spectators who mimic professionals but without the training, skill or safety precautions" just as there is in NASCAR racing. The difference being that most will get away with their lives, where as not so when looping a gyroplane.
I respect Jim's ability, but hope no one tries to "mimic" him.

BUD ONEAL

02-05-2006, 04:48 PM

Ron,
I know that you turned your computer upside down when you posted that photo!
Bud

KenSandyEggo

02-05-2006, 06:56 PM

"Ron,
I know that you turned your computer upside down when you posted that photo!
Bud"

I thought he just stood on his head.

Olbod

02-05-2006, 07:24 PM

Ron, I betya hair was standing on end just thinkin about it.

If anyone is planning to try and loop their Gyro, there is a cupla things to
arrange first.
A crash proof audio tape recorder, connected to your mike and turned on !
Also make sure that there are two working video camera's set up to record
the aftermath !
Be an interesting crash video with screaming sound and could be used as a
stark why not training video.
Bit like these idiots that are goin rocket racing.

Olbod

02-05-2006, 07:28 PM

PS:
the imagined size of ya nuts dont compensate for a pea sized brain !

PW_Plack

02-05-2006, 10:07 PM

Whenever the topic of Jim's loops arises, the discussion always deteriorates into people calling him a pea-brain or the like. The subject deserves more than an emotional, subjective bash-session, because there are important ideas in play.

Doug, Chuck B., I appreciate your thoughtful contributions. I don't doubt someone may have pulled off the maneuver in a direct-control autogyro years ago. There are no doubt others who could perform the maneuver today. Jim happens to be the only one currently authorized by the FAA to attempt it at public airshows, because he's demonstrated he can do so without endangering spectators.

I have no quarrel with the notion that this is a very high-risk maneuver.

Matthew, I think you're mistaken. Jim's inside loop involves a max of positive 3G, and never goes negative-G. This should be well within the structural capabilities of any safely built gyro. If anyone here is flying a machine that comes apart at anything like +3G, it's just plain not airworthy. The Sport Copter rotorhead and tail clearances allow more rearward control range than some machines, but I'm not sure that's a necessity.

This is obviously an emotional topic for some otherwise logical thinkers. How many gyro pilots have died attempting inside loops? Two or three in 75 years? You'd save more lives with an outcry against sloppy wiring, control linkages and fuel systems, shoddy maintenance and preflighting.

NASCAR, airshows, and even the Olympics would cease to exist if nobody demonstrated behavior which is dangerous to people with average skills. I, for one, would miss them.

Chopper Reid

02-05-2006, 10:33 PM

After reading some of the stuff up's that have happened in doing some extremely basic manourver's , I would recommend that anyone contemplating looping or rolling, forget all about it !!!

scott heger

02-05-2006, 11:00 PM

Master Roda

02-06-2006, 07:01 AM

Airshows have always been a testiment to aircraft design and capability. You won't find Jim looping a benson.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! There are no other "ACE" pilots qualified to perform these aerobatics.

Yeah it looks neat. But i wont be looping a gyro ever, and neither will you people.

Bottom line is, When you go to an airshow you see ace pilots performing aerobatics in airplanes and rotorcraft . You dont go home and try them yourself. You go to a race, you see a pro driver going as fast as he can. You dont drive home with your kids in the car and see how fast you can go.

There is an appropriate TIME and PLACE to do these things.

Jim at an airshow performing his ACT is however appropriate.

GyroRon

02-06-2006, 07:03 AM

Ron, I want to know how you got the clouds below your rotors in that picture? If you could learn to cut lawns like the way you are there, you would have much more time for flying!

Scott Heger,laguna Niguel, Ca n86SH

Simple, I was on top of the cloud layer.... think it was 9000 feet MSL or something along those lines.....

Timchick

02-06-2006, 06:49 PM

Matthew Parsons

02-08-2006, 11:39 AM

Plack,

I'm not mistaken. The average gyrocopter is not made for aerobatics. Check the regs.

Focus on what matters here. Do you want to pass advice that leads to someone thinking this behaviour is typical and appropriate for all?

I agree with you on pushing the envelope and being entertained. I just don't think the discussion belongs here. If a team of experienced pilots, design engineers, maintainers, etc. want to push an envelope, they will already know how to do it. They won't need internet discussion group assistance.

Cobra Doc

02-10-2006, 10:43 AM

Robert, I would almost agree with you about the rocket racers, except for one tiny little detail. I happen to know who they are and there isn't one in the bunch that isn't qualified to do it. Most of them, like Rick Searfoss, have more than a couple of minutes driving space shuttles around. The RRL is just guys in fixedwing airplanes doing what fixed wings do, onle the engine is different. They don't even plan on going fast. At least not for a couple of years.

Olbod

02-10-2006, 05:41 PM

Cody, I hope your right.
I thought I read somewhere that these things are going to fly for about ten
seconds and then refuel and be off again real quick ?
From memory, what was described sounded like a recipe for disaster, bit
Like the Germans putting a cockpit on the V1 Doodle Bug !

I personally would not hesitate to fly in a Shuttle, boy, I get a hard on just thinking about it !
Is there a site containing more info on these Rocket Jittnies ?
Cheers.

scott heger

02-10-2006, 08:03 PM

Matthew P. I do have a gyro that is capable of loops, and I built it myself. Matter of fact, it is actually more aerobatic and capable than Jim V's in every aspect except top speed(no enclosure). There is only one difference, mine will hopefully never be upside down.

It is like having a 200 MPh car. You don't have to push it to the extreme limits to have fun in it. Yet it always lets you know that it is really good at what it does and is special.

This discussion and forum is the perfect place to discuss loops in gyros. No active pilot is encouraging this kind of activity. Go watch it at a airshow, it is fun to observe, no more. Just like the rest of the airshow does not make me feel like I need to jump in a jet and get inverted, just because I saw that also. And your statement regarding "check the regs", the UK may be restrictive, but if I decided to loop my gyro tomorrow, I can do it legally under certain conditions and airspace. We have not been choked to death by regulations in the USA. I think we fought a war a few hundred years ago trying to stay away from that.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH SportCopter Vortex

Matthew Parsons

02-11-2006, 09:18 AM

Scott, capability and design standard are different things. Yours might be designed for looping, but I'd be surprised to hear that the average gyrocopter has been. Just because an aircraft can loop or go upside down it doesn't mean it was designed to. The implications of the manoeuvres don't need to be discussed again.

BTW, you can save the war talk. I'm only in the UK for now. I'm returning to a country that beat yours in a war. ;)

mceagle

02-11-2006, 03:39 PM

more aerobatic and capable than Jim V's in every aspect except top speed(no enclosure). Don't sell your machine short Scott. Jim's enclosure isn't particularly aerodynamic and I wouldn't be surprised if yours could cruise just as fast at the same RPM's. (especially as yours should be lighter). Have you ever tried running side by side with one?

scott heger

02-11-2006, 08:58 PM

Tim, I have never "raced" another SportCopter side by side. Other than being at the factory, I have never seen more than one other SportCopter around me.I think it would come down to more who had the prop and engine dialed in better. Mine does about 80 MPH flat out level with a instrument pod. My prop/gearbox is more set up for low speed punch than quickness(3:1 gear, 68" 3 blade powerfin, 14+ degrees pitch). Franlkly going 120MPH in a open gyro is not very much fun (the bugs really hurt). Jim V, says the SportCopters without enclosures are better overall performers. This is especially true when doing turns, spins and sideways (here we go again) type flying. Guess he should know.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

gyroparts

02-12-2006, 03:43 PM

Some things just aren't meant to be looped...trikes for example.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/%7Estclub/AustMicro/AustMicro_html/Fataloop.htm

Chuck Roberg

02-13-2006, 06:35 AM

Some things just aren't meant to be looped...trikes for example.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/%7Estclub/...l/Fataloop.htm
Reply With Quote

I keep getting an "operation timmed out" error. :mad:

I won't give up I'll try again later. ;)

gyroparts

02-13-2006, 06:41 AM

I get the same thing this morning. Their sever must be down.

MikeBoyette

02-13-2006, 06:44 AM

This link worked last night, I went to show a freind who flys trikes now it doesn't work WTF.

krew

02-13-2006, 10:29 AM

Some things just aren't meant to be looped...trikes for example.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/%7Estclub/AustMicro/AustMicro_html/Fataloop.htm
link isnt working for me

gyroparts

02-13-2006, 02:19 PM

Try running the trike loop video from this site.

http://www.nmai.ie/links2.htm

It is under videos and is the very last one.

Doug Riley

02-13-2006, 03:05 PM

What happens in this video is pretty much what will happen in a direct-control, teeter-hinge gyro* under similar circumstances. If a gyro gets too slow at the top of the loop, it runs out of control, like the trike. You won't be able to "roll out of it" or otherwise use your stick to maneuver back to safety.

A gyro isn't a weight-shift machine in any meaningful sense. It does, however, share a characteristic with the weight-shifter: the need for tension between the lifting surface and the airframe in order for there to be control. Without this tension, we are in effect trying to push on a rope. Both pitch and roll control disappear.

A gyro can coast through short zero-G events with no harm done IF the gyro is rightside up and the gyro is stable to begin with. If the lifting surface is steadily loaded from the wrong side (because the frame is upside down), however, the whole rig gets severly unstable. That's what happens in the video: the trike loses steam and start mushing down, upper-wing-surface first. This flips it upright but, without a HS, it has built up so much tumbling momentum by then that it just keeps tumbling.

Somthing sorta similar happened to John Moody (father of the powered ultralight) in front of thousands of spectators at Oshkosh around 1977. He PPOed his tailless powered biplane hang glider and began a series of forward tumbles. The spectators assumed they were going to see someone die. Moody, however, had the wits to kill the engine (whose HTL had started the trouble anyway). Unlike the poor guy in the trike video, he also had enough altitude and got out of the tumble before his wings folded up.

A gyro won't survive a rapid flip because the airframe can't follow the rotor. The rotor will stall and/or collide with the frame. Gyro frames don't normally pitch fast enough for this to be a problem, especially if they have the damping effect of a HS. If the frame is severely unstable by design, or if it has been inverted into a unstable stance, the "flip rate" can be fast enough to outrun the rotor, though.

* Gyros with outboard flap hinges don't entirely "lose it" at zero G. Centrifugal effect partly substitutes for the missing rotor thrust. Early Cierva-style gyros with aileron-and-elevator control don't suffer any loss of control power in zero G as long as they have airspeed enough to make these surfaces effective.