UW rollover

[stuart]

Well it's been a week so i figured i'd let y'all know i rolled my UW destroying prop, blades, landing gear, seperated shoulder, etc, etc. I really don't know what happened--shorltly after landing i did a very abrupt turn to the left and went over immediately. My brother and a friend put it in my barn; i can't, at this point, even bring myself to go look at it. I guess i should have listened to y'all when you suggested i get instruction in a dominator before trying to fly mine, but i really felt confident in my ablities or i wouldn't have tried it--lesson learned. Hope all of you had a good Christmas and wish all a prosperous new year. stuart

[Timchick]

Stuart,
I'm really sorry to hear that. I tried calling your cell phone Saturday and thought maybe you were flying since it was such a nice day. I hope you have a speedy recovery. I'll give you a call later today.

[Brent Drake]

Was your front wheel connected to the rudder?
I'm glad your ok!! and hope you Can repair the damage

[bartc150]

Sorry to hear this Stuart. Was this your first landing in the UW?

[gyro]

Stuart, that some scarry stuff, thinking your on the ground and all is well, then.....a freak rollover.

This brings me to open this up for discussion, I dont know if your machine had a CLT or not but this could be a factor of high CG (center of gravity)

This is gotton me to wonder about doing a CLT??? it might be great for in the air stability but on the ground you have a high CG and it like having a SUV with a liftkit. gyro's are already prone to rolling over and now were making it worse!!

I had a close call on an clutch drive dissengaging and landed pretty hard. the machine tried to roll over to the right on impact, had I had CLT kit I believe it would have went on over.

I personnaly feel that along with the CLT kit there should be a extension kit for the landing gear. A simple comparison A buddy of mine put a lift kit on his golfcart and it majorly change his CG and it was only a 4"lift. you now had to slow it way down in a turn or else....

so the way I veiw it if you put on a CLT kit and raise you CG you have created an unstable machine on the ground and then you add the factor of a spinning rotor and a slight cross wind...Hmmm I bet we start seeing more ground accidents. Just my opinion guys.

Paul

[GyroRon]

Sorry to hear about that Stuart.....

Dominators HAVE to be landed straight with the runway and it helps to land with little to no roll out. NEVER jab hard on the brakes while moving fast in a Dominator during taxi.... takeoff.... or landing.....

[GyroRon]

Was your front wheel connected to the rudder?
I'm glad your ok!! and hope you Can repair the damage

Front landing gear on the Dominator is a free castoring type. The rudder pedals do not connect to it in anyway.

[david holmes]

Glad you are OK!
Welcome to the club of bent or broken machines.
Hope you are back in the air soon.

[Friendly]

Hi Stuart!
How is the shoulder? Been there and done that. You fly the pattern, land and then oops ....was that 2K that just flew out of my pocket??? I spoke to Ernie the other day and he said he was making up a new batch of blades. Getting ready for the spring after the winter winds I reckon. I am glad you are ok. It seems like a small consolation with your gyro all torn up, but it is a big thing when you read about Ken. Hope to see you at a fly-in this spring.

High CG do tip over easier but low CGs tip as well. We just gotta get better at recognizing the edge of the envelope for our machines and correct the mistakes that put us there.
The bright side is ;) at least we are spending money with people we really like.

[Doug Riley]

EVEN IF CLT makes the machine easier to roll over, it's better to bust blades than to PPO and freefall straight in from a thousand feet at 120 mph. Why anyone needs even to think, much less argue, about which is worse is beyond me.

The swerving is a mystery. A Dominator shouldn't swerve upon landing unless one of the mainwheel brakes is dragging, locks up or snags in a rut. The nosewheel is free to caster and won't cause a swerve the way a pedal-linked nosewheel can.

A Dom. that's landed in a crab, or with some vertical speed while it's "one wheel low," can tip over, but it won't swerve.

[Harry_S.]

I wouldn't sweat it too much Stu...these *happenings* on the ground have bit a lot of us...especially in the pocket.

You will, I'm sure, learn from this experience and continue on with your flying. If you have anymore *happenings*, may they be on the ground...not in the air.;)


Cheers :)

[Rehan K.Janjua]

Hello Straut.

Very Sorry to hear this. But glad you are OK (sort off)
I agree with Doug and Ron.
CLT (Crocked Land Trotter) is not an issue.
Would like to know what happened actually ?

Best wishes.

Rehan Janjua

[scottessex]

Sorry to hear that Stuart, glad you were not hurt too bad, I know the feeling.
Let Me know if there is anyway to help you out.

[Screw]

Screw-In

I'm very concerned to hear of this. How is your shoulder? How are you otherwise? Ditto on Scott's offer. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help as well. I'd like to see you in the air ASAP.

Ron mentioned a very good point about the Dominator. You really need to land them with as little air speed as possible and straight. It's ok if your airspeed is a little high, but once on the ground put the cyclic in you lap and stop the machine with your rotor, not the brakes.

It sounds like (I'm guessing), you landed like a KB-2 with a good amount of airspeed and attempted to apply the brakes. Inadvertantly adding more brake on one side than the other causing an abrupt turn, thus causing the roll over.

Remember, Ernie designed the Dominator with the "Stop and Drop" landing system in mind, not a 40mph touch down.

If you need anything, let me know.

Screw-Out

[gyro]

Doug, your a man that speaks his mind... I appreciate that. Anyway in my opinion the centerline thrust does not do away with PPO, however I understand how it can drastically reduces it. In your opinion do you feel that all gyros new or old should have CLT? or does years of experience with low thrust line keep one from doing a PPO? I have heard stories of folks being killed fro PPO but never really understood how the pulled it off unless the had a lot of HP. I you could expand on this It would greatly be appreciated.

Paul

PS: I'm all for the CLT but as I stated previously, I think that there should be CG calculations and do some gear extending as well. Your right... why cry over bent blades vs. falling to your death. I just want to be safe in the air and on the ground. I never fly when I have a cross wind over 10 knots for the very reason of a potential rollover.

[Aussie_Paul]

Well it's been a week so i figured i'd let y'all know i rolled my UW destroying prop, blades, landing gear, seperated shoulder, etc, etc. I really don't know what happened--shorltly after landing i did a very abrupt turn to the left and went over immediately. My brother and a friend put it in my barn; i can't, at this point, even bring myself to go look at it. I guess i should have listened to y'all when you suggested i get instruction in a dominator before trying to fly mine, but i really felt confident in my ablities or i wouldn't have tried it--lesson learned. Hope all of you had a good Christmas and wish all a prosperous new year. stuart

What a bugger!!!

Stuart, did you initiate the turn or did it do it on its own? Did you apply brakes and it turned"

Aussie Paul.

[pwendell]

Doug, your a man that speaks his mind... I appreciate that. Anyway in my opinion the centerline thrust does not do away with PPO, however I understand how it can drastically reduces it. In your opinion do you feel that all gyros new or old should have CLT? or does years of experience with low thrust line keep one from doing a PPO? I have heard stories of folks being killed fro PPO but never really understood how the pulled it off unless the had a lot of HP. I you could expand on this It would greatly be appreciated.

Paul

PS: I'm all for the CLT but as I stated previously, I think that there should be CG calculations and do some gear extending as well. Your right... why cry over bent blades vs. falling to your death. I just want to be safe in the air and on the ground. I never fly when I have a cross wind over 10 knots for the very reason of a potential rollover.

Paul,
CLT, or LTL for that matter, completely eliminates the risk of a PPO, by definition. A gyro can't Push Over unless is has a thrust line above the VCG.

PPO is not the only kind of bunt, however. CLT does not necessarily eliminate the possibility of a Drag-Over or of a Torque-Over.

[Tina]

Stuart,

I read your mishap and think its sounds like a lot of gyro pilots go through these problems and just have to dust them self’s off and try again and hope it doesn’t kill them the next time.
I hear how you ALL really take this in stride and keep flying it must be so worth it. I can't wait till some day I have a story to tell and hope I live through it to tell, But that goes with all things in the pursuit of happiness we all have to think is it worth the risk?

Tina
Gyro Newbie

[gyromike]

Tina,

With proper instruction, you shouldn't have many 'exciting' stories to tell. Hopefully not anyway.

Having fixed wing experience will definitely speed up the process, as the gyro flies more like a fixed wing than a helicopter.

My gyro is very simlar to yours, except I use a McCulloch engine, and don't have the t-tail. I do have the plans for Ron's tail that I would like to build.

Your machine shouldn't present any problems.

[bones]

Paul,
CLT, or LTL for that matter, completely eliminates the risk of a PPO, by definition. A gyro can't Push Over unless is has a thrust line above the VCG.

PPO is not the only kind of bunt, however. CLT does not necessarily eliminate the possibility of a Drag-Over or of a Torque-Over.

MAN that is biggest load of crap i've read in ages....
completely eliminates the risk of a PPO...... That is a VERY dangerous statement, its not the gyro that PPO 'S or PIO 's its the pilot, the human factor.. :rolleyes:

[Mayfield]

Hi Mark,

How can an CLT or LTL machine Power Push Over?

Just trying to understand your thoughts on this.

R/S

Jim

[ventana7]

Mark,

PIO stands for Pilot Induced Oscillation so you are correct that it is caused by the human factor. However a stable gyro is MUCH harder to PIO than an unstable gyro. See Greg Gremmingers articles in the recent PRA mag for an explanation.

PPO on the otherhand is a function of the machine and a CLT or LTL cannot push or bunt over.

Rob

[ventana7]

Stuart,

Sorry for your mishap and wishing you and your machine a speedy recovery.

[Aussie_Paul]

MAN that is biggest load of crap i've read in ages....
completely eliminates the risk of a PPO...... That is a VERY dangerous statement, its not the gyro that PPO 'S or PIO 's its the pilot, the human factor.. :rolleyes:

.....You have asked for it with that statement Bonesy. Not a thing I can do to help here!!!!:eek: lol, except to say that you may be overdosing the Bundy rum you are taking for your leg pain!!!!!!;)

Forgive him Tina and gentlemen!!!!!:D

Aussie Paul. :)

[bones]

So you are all sayin that it is impossible for me to get my new CLT machine to bunt over, so if i get in it tomorrow and let all 100 horses loose, that under no circumstances i can get into trouble, because the way i read this;
completely eliminates the risk of a PPO.
That is what is trying to be said.....
THat was all i meant was that one part of his post, is dangerous/misleading to print something like that..

Damn it Paul since i've had the opp, i cant seem to be able to drink anymore, it all tastes like cr*p,,, not happy

[bones]

Hi Mark,

How can an CLT or LTL machine Power Push Over?

Just trying to understand your thoughts on this.

R/S

Jim
Very simply, under full power climbing out, hit an updraft, and if the pilot sticks it forward fast, you will go over, same as any machine...All that has to happen is to loose the rotor drag,something will happen, i think it was discussed a while ago that there may have been a thought that a LTL machine in theorie MIGHT be able to go the other way

[bones]

Orr hell if i'm wrong i'll say sorry and shut the hell up..:)

[chuter]

A bunt is not necessarily a PPO. A bunt is a forward tumble for ANY reason; PPO is a forward tumble caused by the thrustline being above the CG.

If the thrustline is on or below the CG, then by definition it CAN'T PPO.

Somewhere there's a list of definitions posted; sorry, but I don't have time right now to find it and make a link.

[Mayfield]

Good morning Mark,

I suspect we have one of those "separated by a common language" issues here.

I believe that Peter was saying that a CLT/LTL machine can not PPO. I think that is an accurate statement. Without an arm, an infinite force can not generate the moment necessary to PPO.

Make no mistake, I believe it is a real bad idea to assume that a CLT/LTL machine can not become inverted and kill the pilot. What I believe is that without an arm there can be no forward pitching moment caused by engine thrust.

When you also have an appropriately sized H stab to damp pitching moments caused by other forces, you make PIO more unlikely.

R/S

Jim

[Udi]

Very simply, under full power climbing out, hit an updraft, and if the pilot sticks it forward fast, you will go over, same as any machine...All that has to happen is to loose the rotor drag,something will happen, i think it was discussed a while ago that there may have been a thought that a LTL machine in theorie MIGHT be able to go the other way
I think the highlighted words above are the root of the confusion, Mark. The rotor is generating a thrust vector, like a propeller. The thrust vector in a gyro is tilted back. Yes, this vector can be shown as two vectors - lift and drag, but it is very important to understand that rotor drag is not a separate force, the lift and the drag are part of one force – the rotor thrust vector(RTV).

Now, if you can visualize this thrust vector (RTV) extending from the teeter bolt down, it is passing close to the gyro center of mass (CG, or C of G). In a HTL gyro (that has no other means to correct for the HTL), the RTV has to pass in front of the CG, in order to counteract the engine HTL force that is trying to pitch the machine nose down. In a down draft, as you have pointed out, the RTV is diminished and so there is less rotor force to counteract the engine HTL force that is trying to PUSH the nose down. This is the cause of a PPO. A PPO is when the engine is pushing the nose over.

In a CLT gyro, the RTV is passing right thru the gyro CG, because the CLT engine is not trying to push the nose down. When a CLT gyro is hitting a down draft, the RTV will also diminish, but the nose of the gyro will not pitch down. The force of the engine will just push the gyro forward, with no nose up or down tendencies

In a LTL gyro, the engine is trying to pitch the nose up, so the RTV is passing BEHIND the CG to counteract the nose-up pitching moment of the engine. When a LTL gyro is hitting a down draft and the RTV is diminishing, the engine will push the nose of the gyro UP, not down. This is good, because as the nose is pitching up the rotor is also pitching up, which helps loading the rotor and recover the lost RTV.

Hope this helps clear the confusion.

Udi

[Doug Riley]

Bones, the engine thrust isn't trying to push the nose over if you have LTL or CLT. So, yes, all gyros should be close to CLT, with any remaining PPO tendency neutralized using an appropriately designed and installed HS. Once this is done, the gyro absolutely CANNOT execute a power pushover (PPO), even if you throw the stick hard forward at wide-open throttle at high speed or in a climb.

Udi is right; "lift" and "drag" are an artificial method of dissecting rotor thrust for purposes of discussion. There's really only one force, rotor thrust, and it pulls up-and-back along a line that's square to the rotor disk (like the spindle of a phonograph sticking up through a record).

Can a gyro get into trouble some way OTHER than PPO? Sure. As others have mentioned, engine torque can produce a rollover unless it's compensated by something OTHER than the rotor. Tall tails, wings and differential settings on right and left H-stabs are three ways to do that.

Then there are low G maneuvers. Suddenly reducing the rotor's angle of attack (AOA) by throwing the stick hard forward reduces the airflow that keeps the blades spinning -- so they will slow down until the aircraft begins to sink and restores positive AOA. If they slow down past a certain RRPM, you'll get uncontrollable flapping. A properly pitch-stable gyro will naturally nose up and restore AOA when you try to do this, however. It's the unstable ones that accelerate and keep pitching on their own when you blip the stick forward. Again, getting rid of HTL and other PPO tendencies greatly reduces the chance that a momentary low G will persist long enough to cause any harm.

Some cabin configurations are aerodynamically unstable and can pull the gyro upside-down in either pitch or roll. Proper tail surfaces will prevent this problem in pitch, although a good cabin design will not create as much trouble as the (more typical) bad ones. Small wings and/or a large mast fairing (like the sail of a submarine) can help in the roll direction.

[Screw]

screw-In

Talk about a hijacked thread. This is good stuff, but needs to be it's own thread.

Screw-Out

[bones]

Jim, Udi And Doug, gentlemen i stand corrected(a little bit any way) thank you.

[scottessex]

Talk about a hijacked thread. This is good stuff, but needs to be it's own thread.


Amen brother!
Sorry about the mishap Stuart, Please let us know what you are going to do.

[stuart]

I want to thank everyone; i really appreciate y'all's concern--to have this happen to a new gyro has been pretty sickening--like i said i haven't even been over to the barn to inspect it yet--so thanks. I'll try to answer a couple of your questions: I have some FW taildragger time, and i'm used to pointing the machine where i'm going, and don't think that was the problem, but yes John, in that it was only about the 3rd crowhop, i was (i thought) being consevative and gradually reducing power and airspeed, but did land with some spare airspeed. However, i didn't purposefully apply brakes; i intended slowing down by coming back on the stick, and stopping with the rotor. But i'm not used to heel brakes, and could, i suppose, have hit the left brake--i really don't know. I wish i'd listened when it was suggested that i get some instruction in a dominator, and when David advised starting on grass, but i was too impatient and didn't think i'd have a problem in that the KB2 seemed so easy. My ribs and shoulder will probably be ok; my AC joint is completely seperated, but 2/3s of these don't need a repair, so hopefully i'm in that population. At his point i'm trying just let my head clear, and then make decisions on the best way to go from here. Again, i can't tell y'all how much i appreciate your concern--thanks, stuart

[pwendell]

MAN that is biggest load of crap i've read in ages....
completely eliminates the risk of a PPO...... That is a VERY dangerous statement, its not the gyro that PPO 'S or PIO 's its the pilot, the human factor.. :rolleyes:

Mark,

Since several others have responded and made the points I would have, I won't repeat them. It was certainly not my intention to imply a CLT/LTL gyro is crash proof, or to minimize the importance of pilot skill and judgment. I simply wanted to point out that one major type of gyro accident, a PPO, is not possible in a CLT/LTL gyro. Any gyro can kill if flown poorly, flown in poor mechanical condition, or in bad weather. And, sometimes, no matter how careful we are, we simply get unlucky.

Stuart,

I'm very glad you're OK and hope you're back in the air soon, with a little dual training, perhaps. Sorry for hijacking your thread.

[PW_Plack]

Stuart,

If you see someone else about to leap without a good orientation to his new machine, make sure you speak up! I'm going to guess that from your current perspective, 2 or 3 hours of dual time in a Dominator looks cheap now. :)

Get well soon!

[Chopper Reid]

Bones, you stirred the pot there HOWEVER, in the scenario you mentioned, I believe the possibility of pushing the gyro over is very real. I take in all the points regarding CLT thank you and aknowledge that CLT is /will be safer than HTL.

There is a misconception out there that says if you are CLT you are bullet proof, this is certainly not the case in the real world. I believe pilot skills arent what they should be and this factor will continue to contribute to accidents that should not happen.

[ventana7]

--i really don't know. I wish i'd listened when it was suggested that i get some instruction in a dominator, and when David advised starting on grass, but i was too impatient and didn't think i'd have a problem in that the KB2 seemed so easy. My ribs and shoulder will probably be ok; my AC joint is completely seperated, but 2/3s of these don't need a repair, so hopefully i'm in that population. At his point i'm trying just let my head clear, and then make decisions on the best way to go from here. Again, i can't tell y'all how much i appreciate your concern--thanks, stuart

Stuart -- HOPEFULLY SOME GOOD CAN COME FROM YOUR ACCIDENT -- AND THAT WOULD BE IF EVERYONE COMING ALONG BEHIND YOU READ YOUR QUOTE ABOVE!

I encountered a guy in Maine last summer who had recently purchased an older Benson and loved the idea of teaching himself to fly with Benson's book. I saw him tune me out every time I suggested he get instruction first-- wonder if he is still around?

[SamL]

I fly a CLT machine and find it no problem.
Most rollovers are pilot induced, in other words, the pilot stops flying after touch-down and flys it over.
Another thing that can add to this problem is speed.
If possible try to flare out land, and sit the gyro onto its tail until it vertially stops, and by then it will drop the front wheel, meaning your rotors have slowed to a point were they are unable to hold you up, then simply level out the disc and tilt into wind if required.
If the machine begines to roll backwards, lower the disc, as a backward rolling machine is hard to control.
A flare out landing will wash off speed very quickly, and sitting the machine onto its tail means you cant cross the front wheel causing a rollover.
"Trailling link suspension does also help"
Take off is very similar, as you want to get your front wheel off the ground asap and balance your machine on its mains, this means you are now using your rudder, rather than your front wheel to stay straight.
Once again, eliminating getting your front wheel crossed up.
This technique makes crosswind takeoffs easy. (just also add stick into wind)
On lift off your machine should track and climb straight.

If possible have someone video tape your landings / takeoffs, and watch them over and over nit picking yourself.
Just my 2 cents.

Regards Sam.

[Doug Riley]

On most pusher gyros, the rudder is effective for ground steering even long before the nosewheel lifts. Usually it kicks in around 3000 engine RPM, regardless of the aircraft's speed. The technique for the Dominator is to get off those brakes as soon as possible and begin steering with the rudder. Normally this can happen just a moment after you finish your static prerotation and start rolling.

Keeping the prerotator on during the roll is an intermediate technique, not for brand-newbies. It creates enough torque that you may need to continue brake steering a little longer into the roll.

[automan1223]

Sorry to hear of your trouble. My personal opinion is that the landing gear on the dom is a bit too narrow. Talk to Gary Safrit, he has an earlier dominator and his landing gear is a comfortable width. Not as sexy as the newer ones but way more forgiving in my humble opinion. There is no replacement for experience and skill. The dom is a higher skill level machine in ground handling and landing.

I saw the tail end of a landing that Greg Spicola made in Ron A's dominator and it was not pretty. Greg had taken the dom up for a quick flight and realized the 2 machines have different landing requirements.

Even the most experienced pilots in other machines need time to master the Dominators flight envelope and those who trek to quickly into its field can find themselves doing a not so funny dance.

I also agree with doug about the rudder authority dropping off leading to an uncomfortable yaw on landing. I have experienced that in my own 2 pl air command.

Hope you heal and rebuild.

Life sucks sometimes but its the journey that is important not the destination.

And lastly not to blow smoke at the better pilots here but some of you guys dont know how skilled and lucky you are to have the gifts you have.

NON NATURAL sticks have to learn bit by bit. otherwise you get bit....Consider this though, once you learn it and become proficient, you have learned it !

Even if you are sure you could go and fly that bird cause so and so makes it look so easy..... spend the time and the money to get training and get comfortable with the machine or one like it before you end up badly.

To paraphrase the words of one of my instructors. "Years can go by and then one day you can just screw up, it can happen to you. It can sneak up on you and bite you. You can forget to fly the machine. And then its a matter of luck and training and how well your machine is built to take it. (it being the demon in the sky)...... Dont go blaming the machine, or the wind or the bug in your teeth.

May we all help each other in 2006.

Jonathan

[Screw]

Screw-In

I'm not too sure I agree with your assessment of the Dominator Johnathan. I agree that "Taking off" and "Landing" a Dominator is differant than most, however no more difficult to learn than any other.

Transitioning from one machine to another is a difficult task for any pilot and I agree that some pilots (like Ron) are better at it than others.

But I totally disagree with your statement that Dominators are not good machines for newbies. I personally think they are easy flying, very stable machines with no bad habits. Ground handeling is easy once you learn.

I also think that when properly equipted, that they are very high performance machines. One of the biggest "Bang for the Buck" out there.

On this subject, when someone asks you, "Are flying gyros hard?" You think about it for a second, and most will say, "No, but it takes some training. Don't try it by yourself."

Is landing a Dominator hard? No harder than landing any other gyro, just different.

Screw-Out

[Udi]

If landing a Dominator is no harder than any other gyro than how come their little dance became so famous? Don’t get me wrong – the Dom is a great gyro, and no gyro should be landed with a crab, but some are less forgiving than others. That is the bottom line. I haven't flown a single place Dominator (I would love to though) so I can't speak from personal experience but based on everything I read, the Dom would become an even better machine if they made the gear more forgiving. I think that between Ernie and Dick there is enough brain power to make it happen, if they only wanted.

Udi

[ToddP]

I can't speak from personal experience but based on everything I read, the Dom would become an even better machine if they made the gear more forgiving. I think that between Ernie and Dick there is enough brain power to make it happen, if they only wanted.

Udi

No doubt they are capable. Every change has a tradeoff though. A couple that come to mind here, weight and trailerability. (is that a word :rolleyes: ?)

[Ron Iaconis]

Stuart, Welcome to the Initiation of gyro-rollover-guys!
I just this past fall took my newly built Center Thrust Horizontal stabbed gyro and did a half pattern and upon return to the grass airstrip,,,,I lost power and sank rather rapidly,and if I had possibly landed on the mains,I might have had an incident free experience,but as it was,I landed with the nose wheel hitting first, breaking off,( my nose wheel was rather a tall one, which my next machine that I am building as I write, will have a nose wheel as in the Bensen kind)) and the blades struck the ground and lost prop, tail and really upset me! Thank God I am here to tell the story, but Stuart, trust me, many a gyro pilot has done a rollover and even the trained-by-instructors kind have had this happen. Glad you are here to tell the story as I am too.

[bartc150]

I was one oscillation away from tipping my gyro on my third run of crow hops. All the landings prior were perfect. I guess I was so overwelmed by actually flying, that I got a little lazy and froze prior to landing. I was able to power out of it and make my first flight around the pattern and land without incident. I taxied straight to the hangar and put the gyro up for the day. I knew I was so close to eating pavement. I learned from that day on, no matter what, I will always land straight and slow. No problems since.

Point being, I was taught in a 2 place Dominator and still almost ate it. It can happen to anyone if you let your guard down.

BTW, I spent a good 2 hours taxiing around with the blades stopped just to get used to ground handling, and sensitivity of the UW brakes.

[Chopper Reid]

Very important to land on the mains first [both] before allowing the nosewheel to touch down.
While these accidents do happen and probably always will, there is no reason for them to become roll overs. Even from 20 feet, there is little excuse for bending something. I guess some of you might be flying with very low inertia blades.
If you do have an engine out or when landing, keep flying the gyro till the rotors are stopped. This involves use of the ASI, stick and rudder !

I cant figure out why you need brakes on the main wheels ? That thing called the rotor is the best brake you can have!

[Ron Iaconis]

Hey, The practice thing is so important, even though I failed to practice it on my last new design, I paid very dearly for not runway practicing. Somehow no matter how much we preach and teach , some of us just for some stupid reason, need to learn the hard way and not everyone gets away with the shortcommings of not applying the practice, practice, practice method!
PS: I believe that we all know the real reason , and it's just plain stubborness, macho, and the anxiety of just " gettin on with it" and that is the real " killer"

[scott heger]

I believe it is so very important to have absolutely calm wind conditions for the first 5-10 hours of solo in a new machine, experienced or not. Alot of problems come from a wind componet of some type. As a newbie, I also froze momentarily on a mild crosswind landing, not from panic, but more from not knowning what to do right away. I was taught, dual trained correctly, and signed off for solo. But I didn't excercise the right options at the correct time, too much happening at once=brain freeze. I didn't go over, but just as easily could have. Sorry about your rollover , and hope you heal quickly. A ground accident sure beats one from altitude.

Scott heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[Vance]

Thank you for sharing your lesson Stuart. I am sure it is valuble. I hope your future path through the rotorcraft world is less bumpy.

I always wondered how close to a roll over I was during training. I am blind in one eye and often flair too high. I also have a helicopter left over habit of flairing and leveling the ship. When I was flying with Steve he would cushion the landing with power and we would always turn right. This seemed to cause Mr Mayfield concern as did the sound of a hard landing. I always wondered how close to real trouble we were. Sometimes the wind would come up during the flight and this would exaserbate the complexity of the landing. I am gratefull to have had friends with me to help be through my akward times.

I know from personal experance not to allow overconfidense to increase the risk.

Thank you, Vance

[david holmes]

I have a windsock on each end and in the middle of my 2K runway. Sometimes, on each end they are pointing in opposite directions.

[MikeBoyette]

Chopper Reid,
A Dominator nose wheel is free castoring therfore, the mainwheel brakes are used for turning during a low speed taxi. They are used to manuver the gyro while rolling a less speed than a brisk walk. The rudder is used at speeds that are higher than about 3 to 5 mph. The brakes on a Dominator are very senstive since they are band brakes. They are mounted so that while they are applied inertia causes the bands to grip even tighter. They do take some getting used to though. The brakes also allow the Ultrawhite to prerotate consistanly to above 200 rpms.
Stuart,
I am so sorry about your accident. I hope you rebuild, and take a few hours with Dave Seace. I think once you get used to the UW you won't want to fly anything else.

[Chopper Reid]

can you give example of low inertia blades?i was flying my kb-2 with bensen blades came in high and was let down hard!no damage !just don't want to do it again!!!

I'm not a technical person so I will attempt to answer your question this way. My gyro started off with 26 ft blades that reved about 360 revs, I then tried 27 ft'ers and found they had a lot more hang on [reved about 340 ] I now have 27 ft 6 inch blades that rev at 310, these hang on longer than the 27's and I'm able to slow the gyro right down without the gyro starting to descend which is very handy in my line of work !! .

The low inertia blades spin up quick, rev fairly high and slow very quickly. High inertia blades spin up much more slowly, rev slower and take a lot longer to slow down.

Flaring too high and you will get let down fairly quickly, specially if you have bought the gyro to a stop just as you flare.
Try looking further down the runway as you get close to the flare. I'm sure this well help.

[Chopper Reid]

Chopper Reid,
A Dominator nose wheel is free castoring therfore, the mainwheel brakes are used for turning during a low speed taxi. They are used to manuver the gyro while rolling a less speed than a brisk walk. The rudder is used at speeds that are higher than about 3 to 5 mph. The brakes on a Dominator are very senstive since they are band brakes. They are mounted so that while they are applied inertia causes the bands to grip even tighter. They do take some getting used to though. The brakes also allow the Ultrawhite to prerotate consistanly to above 200 rpms.
.


Thanks for the explanation Mike. I have not tried taxying in any craft with a castoring nosewheel so I'm pretty ignorant in this area. Do you think castoring nosewheels are a good thing in gyro's generally ??

[birdy]

Very important to land on the mains first [both] before allowing the nosewheel to touch down.
???????????
The best way is to have the rear wheel touch first, then you KNOW your going to land with the least amount of roll possable.;)
I can't remember the last time me rear wheel didn't touch first.:rolleyes:
[ must be sumthn to do with the 'g' spot.]:D

[PW_Plack]

Brian,

The inertia of a set of rotorblades shouldn't affect normal in-flight RPM, only how quickly they get to that RPM, and how quickly they let RPM decay.

Blade area will make a difference, as you observed, and so will blade pitch.

[Chopper Reid]

Brian,

The inertia of a set of rotorblades shouldn't affect normal in-flight RPM, only how quickly they get to that RPM, and how quickly they let RPM decay.

Blade area will make a difference, as you observed, and so will blade pitch.

Quite correct Paul, its just that the heavier, longer blades usually rev slower than the lighter blades. I realize the amount of pitch set on the blades makes a diference too.
The high inertia blades sometimes have tip weights installed too to increase the overall weight. I think it would be fair to say that most high inertia blades are usualy heavier than the low inertia blades !

[Aussie_Paul]

Brian,

The inertia of a set of rotorblades shouldn't affect normal in-flight RPM, only how quickly they get to that RPM, and how quickly they let RPM decay.

Blade area will make a difference, as you observed, and so will blade pitch.

Paul and Brian, IMHO high enertia blades do affect normal inflight rrpm. The rrpm does not vary as much therefore ending up with a smoother ride. This was quite noticeable when I went from Raf blades, which are heavy, 92 lbs if I remember correctly, to the Raf blades with tip weights.

Aussie Paul. :)

[stuart]

I appreciate everybody's input. Thanks, stuart

[scottessex]

Just remember Stuart, I can offer "builders assistance" here at the Flying H!
Seroiusly, let Me know if you need help when you get ready to rebuild.

[Doug Riley]

The castering nosewheel/differential braking setup puts less strain on the nose gear leg. The main gear that is braked takes the load, and the nosewheel simply follows.

[stuart]

I can't tell you how much i appreciate that Scott. stuart

[GyroRon]

Plus I have some tips on how to save a few hundred bucks on the rebuild, but first need to know what all is damaged and what is fixable and what is trash. When you are ready to go to the barn, let us know what you find.

[scottessex]

What kind of tips Ron? like where Barry keeps his hangar key hidden, for his dominator project?:p

[GyroRon]

Well for starters, if the tail is banged up too far beyond repair, I believe a homemade Steel tube and fabric tail sort of like this one below would be a better tail overall and would save you at least 600$ right there. New unpainted tall tail is 800+$$$$ from Ernie.

[stuart]

Thanks Ron, i really appreciate your offer--yep, the tail is trashed; I'm going to try and do a close inspection either today or next saturday and i'll let y'all know what i find out. Thanks again, you guys are the best. stuart

[Vance]

Hello Ron, The fabric on the one in the picture looks a lot like aluminum and it looks like it was made with very similar construction to a dominator tail, only more complex because it is articulated as opposed to full flying.

Thank you, Vance

[GyroRon]

Yeah Vance, you are right. That tail is aluminum and is even more complex than a standard Dominator tail. I used that picture just to show my intent..... I would make the tail flat - like the tail on a Piper Cub - and make it out of Steel tubes welded together, with a fixed Fin with moveable rudder. Then make the Horizontal stab as wide as the gear also flat, and brace it to the Vertical stab as like the one in that picture. Cover the whole thing with Fabric and paint it and install. This kind of tail would fly better and if built light could weight about the same as a standard Dominator tail. It certainly would be ALOT less money. You could probably build and paint a tail like this for under 100$ if your thrifty.

[GyroRon]

Oh and if your no good at covering, there really isn't any reason you couldn't weld the steel frame up and " Cover " it with a sheet of..... Aluminum, Lexan, Thin Plywood, Thin Sheet steel, Fiberglass, etc, Just cut to the shape of the Steel frame and drill holes through the covering material and into the steel tubes and attach with pop rivets.

I think it would be pretty cool looking to make the steel tail and paint the tubes some fancy colors and then cover them with a thin sheet of clear Lexan plastic on either side.

[Timchick]

Coming soon....... Ron's Skunkworks.

[gyromike]

Coming soon....... Ron's Skunkworks.

If Ernie doesn't shoot him first!:D

[GyroRon]

I doubt Ernie really cares. He doesn't make his tails anyway, Dick Degraw makes them.

Ernie is like the rest of us. He knows alot of people are on a budget and he knows 800$ is not chump change to alot of us. I know before he struck it rich in the gyro manufactoring business, he would have patched together a scratch built tail too if it helped him get back in the air quicker and for less money!

[Dean_Dolph]

I doubt Ernie really cares. He doesn't make his tails anyway, Dick Degraw makes them. Dick, also made the metal one you show! It is the one on Carl Schneider's GyroCycle.

[GyroRon]

True.... But I bet that one cost a bit more than 800$

[MikeBoyette]

I think Dick is no longer makes said Tall Tails. All tails are now made in house by Moses. He makes them using all the tooling that Dick designed for dad. Dick got tired of making them so while working on the LifINO last winter Dick taught Moses how to do it. He's been making them ever since.

[Doug Riley]

Do the Dominator plans still show you how to make a foam-and-glass or lauan (door skin) plywood version of the tail? That might help someone who's short of dough.

The metal tail is the best if you can afford it, however.

[Ernie_B]

I would be happy to BUY ALL the great CHEAP tails Ron can make at this LOW price, Please send me 10 of them, I will pay you 200.00 each!
should be able to make a big profit, making them 10 at time!
A person should actually make something BEFORE they give advise on how much money another person is making ( or not).But as I said, RON, I will buy 10 from you , then all you care to make at that LOW price!
I just gotta wonder Ron , do you still get that gas for you business for 50 cent a gallon? Or do you pay the same price as EVERONE else?

[Mike Schallmann]

Ron--to quote you--"Well for starters, if the tail is banged up too far beyond repair, I believe a homemade Steel tube and fabric tail sort of like this one below would be a better tail overall and would save you at least 600$ right there. New unpainted tall tail is 800+$$$$ from Ernie."

This is pure BS --you cannot build a Steel Tube and Fabric Tail for $200 --and another thing a"Flat" plate design does NOT offer any improvement over an airfoil --in fact the Airfoil shape is far superior -- holy BS Batman how can a flat -tube steel/fabric be an improvement over an aluminum skinned airfoil shape--

Dont take this to personal Im just busting your B's for sticking your foot in your mouth --say up to your knee

[Brent_Brown]

I made a tail or two and like I said before it is only 250 bucks but over 40 hours to make. I give some away at 400 and 500 bucks. If this was my real job I would have to charge for all the time at say 20 an hour that would be 800 in time only. I think it is fun to make them up to the point of filling pin holes and sanding and sanding and sanding. I hate sanding.
however I am working on something to help with all the sanding.

[GyroRon]

Okay, apparently Ernie wants you to buy his tail.....

Mike, The Dominator tail is almost too powerful. I think a flat surface tall tail would still be plenty powerful.

Maybe I will make one tail for my ship just to prove my point.

[david holmes]

Ron,
Any REAL man had rather have too much tail than not enough ----- if I remember correctly.

[Ernie_B]

I think you should make a tail for your gyro and prove to yourself that you can make a CHEAP tail that works better! In fact , you could maybe make a WHOLE gyro for just a few bucks, this would provide the world with the MUCH needed gyro for under 3,000.00 and all us us RICH gyro manufactures would go out of business and you could become as rich OR even richer than you think we are!
BUT, on the other hand, JUST maybe, you will not even break even, say if you pay yourself 50 cent an hour for you labor! The point Ron, is, I sell the tails for a small profit, this provides me with a meager income, (NOT GETTING RICH) I have spent 36 years building and testing my designs, how many have you built and tested?
and I find your inference to be a bit insulting! While I do offer plans to build a tail where the cost WOULD be under 200.00 for matierials , YOU did not seem to remember that!
So , in closing you should refrain from giving advise on building till you get a few years and a few gyros under your belt. OR at least KNOW what you are talking about!

[Doug Riley]

Hey, on a good day in the gyro biz, I used to clear minimum wage easily. Not all the days were good...

[GyroRon]

Ernie... your so dry anymore, did you not notice the "Rich" comment was a joke? Good golly Jeeze Whiz!!! :)

As for your built up tall tails, I think 800$ is not a bad price at all for the amount of work put into building one. And I certainly believe it is A-OK for you to make some money on them when you sell them. I am not a total retard.

I just think to some people who have to beg borrow and steal just to come up with enough money to buy a gyro, and they go out and trash it right off the bat, Well the cost of repairs may cause them to just say Screw gyros and we loose another gyro pilot. This exact thing happened to Tom Landers when he flipped his Ultrawhite over, he sold the leftover parts cheap and moved onto another hobby. Would hate to see Stuart go the same way. I am just giving him a alternative to save him a few bucks.

Ernie you seem all pissed, but you are certainly not new to saving a few bucks yourself.

I did forget you sell plans for the tall tail. That is probably the way Stuart should go.

[Aussie_Paul]

you pay yourself 50 cent an hour for you labor!

Ernie 50 cents an hour for Ron is way over paid!!!:eek:

Now Ron can have a go at me and leave you alone Ernie!!:rolleyes:

Aussie Paul. :)

[John Stahl]

Paul
for A reformed stirrer and troublemaker sounds to me like you are backsliding.

[david holmes]

Paul,
Like my preacher says, You can't backslide if you haven't first front slid.

[Aussie_Paul]

Oops, I fell of the wagon!!!!:eek:

Sorry!!:o

Aussie Paul. :)

[Hognose]

AAI used to charge almost $1000 for the Sparrowhawk tail when it was an option... $948 to be precise, and that was JUST for assembly. If you didn't pay the $1k, you still got the parts and materials. At that point, you could take great pains and a couple of hundred hours finishing the tail, or you could slap it together haphazardly and wonder why your Sparrowhawk didn't fly straight.

Most of the buyers, three quarters of them in fact, paid that $948. AAI finally made it standard. It comes down to what is worth more, your time or your money?

For me the answer is always "time." I don't know when my life end but it ends sometime, and then my time is up. As for money, I can always go make more money -- after all, I'm in that lucrative field, aviation!

cheers

-=K=-