Holy Snikies!! redrive failure...Hard Landing!! [Archive]

gyro

12-17-2005, 05:54 PM

Today I was flying my AC taking my wife for here first ride... and low and behold what happens the cutch drive gives out! We had made several passes along the snow covered grass stretch I was using for a runway and was on a flyby for my family onlookers when it happend. We had just pass by and I was climbout out to about 300ft when I noticed we were slowing down (more than normal for a gentle climb) I inputed some left ruddder as I wanted to get back to the runway ASAP! but the rudder was ineffective, I put the stick to the left to bring her around and we were lossing altitude fast. I dropped the nose even more as I knew we need airspeed to land but I realized we were not going to make it plus it was down wind and crossways to a cut cornfield. I thought the snow covered hay field below me would be better plus it would be into the wind, we were falling faster and faster and I knew I could never regain my forward speed and I did the best I could.

We hit hard, but were ok...the machine suffered minor gear damage but I will have to completly go through it.

I do have a VIDEO of the whole thing... Yes thats right my brother was videoing this flight as it was suppose to be something to look back on..well believe you me, she will never forget this day video or not. Anyway she understands what happend and is willing to try it again. It's things like this that makes me greatful for Gods watchful hand.

to veiw the video go to the bottom (left) of this page labeled CLOSE CALL. scroll all the way down it is not with the videos in the box.

http://www.pipersprecisionproducts.com/videos.htm

Paul

GyroRon

12-17-2005, 06:18 PM

What kind of engine and drive it that? From the sound on the video it didn't sound like the engine sped up - which I would expect to hear if the clutch slipped.

Landing looked okay, but flared maybe a bit too high. Scares me to see a two place with the high thrustline..... Hope you consider the CLT upgrade when you fix her up.

GyroRon

12-17-2005, 06:22 PM

Downloaded a couple other videos from your brothers site. What the hell kind of guns are those!!!! :)

scottessex

12-17-2005, 07:33 PM

Is that an Arrow engine?
I had the sprag clutch in mine dissengage,

Glad you back on the ground with no major incident.

gyro

12-18-2005, 06:46 AM

Gyroron, It is an arrow engine with a sprag clutch in the redrive. If you watch the video again you will notice that at the peak of my climb the engine speeds up (this was not me) And whatever went bad it went completly out just before I touched down as you will hear the engine grab a bunch more RPMs. About the guns...that is what I do for a living, I build full-auto airguns with the minigun being my speciality.

Your right scott it appears to have disengaged, I will be checking it out later today and will post more on this when I have news.

Screw

12-18-2005, 06:58 AM

Screw-in

You done good.

Screw-Out

Chuck Roberg

12-18-2005, 08:50 AM

Most important thing. Your both OK. Hope your back flying soon.

John Stahl

12-18-2005, 09:21 AM

It’s good to see a normal engine out video. Most of the video of hard landings are more dramatic.
Glad to hear every one is OK.

Your mini guns are SWEET.
They would look great on a gyro. ……………..How much damage would your mini gun do to a coyote? At what distance?

In the big open of Montana they are paying as much as $500.00 an hour to hunt yotes from the air.

gyro

12-18-2005, 12:24 PM

John, the bb guns we build are mainly for back yard plinking. Even the steel firing ones only do about 450fps. Kotys are tough varmits it would take at least 700+ fps to do some real damage. As far as mounting them on a gyro, I'm right there wiith you..LOL I thought about putting a couple of our miniguns on the AC and do some Stafing runs on the pond.

Cheers Paul

RICK MARTIN

12-18-2005, 03:59 PM

Good job getting her down Paul. And thanks for posting the video for us all.

gyro

12-18-2005, 04:13 PM

Your welcome rick, It sure was a tough decision and as you see in the video I didnt have much time. The bad thing was the engine was still running indicating that all was well. had the engine just up and quit I would have done it a little different. I thought that with the engine running I would still get enough push to make it to the field...Hmmm think again, it's good that this was caught on film so all can see if you loose power, be it by my experience or engine out you better be looking between your toes to land.

automan1223

12-18-2005, 06:03 PM

Wow, that was a tight scene. Weird too cause if you lost total drive to the prop you would have had the engine go sound like an electric blender on frappe' setting. The landing gear on the stock ac is not that stout that it can take a real punishment. I think you did real good with what you had to work with. The turns might have pulled a lot of airspeed out of your decent, had you gone straight in you might have had a more "delicate" landing. Not good with the wife as a first ride. Glad you stayed out of the trees.

Jonathan

barnstorm2

12-18-2005, 06:03 PM

I have not seen the video yet but congratulations on a successful recovery. You did better than I did on my last engine out with a passinger.

scottessex

12-18-2005, 06:13 PM

I had the clutch go out on my arrow, I know exactly how it feels!

I had to order the sprag clutch from a company up in the northeast, the sprag is a GM automatic transmission sprag from a 1950's early 60's dynaflow transmission.

mceagle

12-18-2005, 07:46 PM

First let me say a good save and glad no one was hurt.

Having said that I disagree with the suggestions. I watched the video several times and the gyro had plenty of height to effect a normal forced landing, with or without engine. Firstly, you must realise that the bulk of the noise that we hear is the propeller, not the engine. It is also normal for frequency of sound to be higher when the noise is coming towards you than when it is going away from you.

Everything appeared to be going normally until the gyro turned back towards the right when the propeller slowed down considerably (but not instantly) at this point of time the gyro almost immediately became behind the power curve from which it never recovered, despite the fact that the propeller resumed normal rpm's as soon as the nose was lowered. The gyro was "mushing" rather than gliding down. It appeared to me to be more of a case of the engine temporally loosing power while the gyro was climbing at Vmin, than a slippage. It would be unusual for a sprag clutch to slip a little bit and then regain full drive.

bones

12-19-2005, 12:17 AM

scottessex

12-19-2005, 03:14 AM

Tim,The arrow sprag clutch will slip and grab again and again.

The prop will free wheel, and it free wheels after the engine shuts off.
It looked to Me like the gyro mushed in with not enough forward airspeed.
Again, Glad you are OK!

gyro

12-19-2005, 06:05 AM

Tim, I fully understand what you are saying and from the video that would be a good analysis. The thing is I looked at the rpm gauge and it was in the red and I didnt have any power??? could the guage have been malfunctining at the time? possibly... but it has always worked fine. The thing is when I lowered the nose I had my hand on the throttle and was no doubt mashing it into the slide...(come on baby go go..LOL) And the engine was pegged. that is when I relized that something was not working in the redrive. I also realized that if it had gone completly out that it should have raced of the charts. I'm still investigating into this and have not had a chance to completly check it out. I do know that I rotated the prop and something is not right... Anyway I appreciate all the input I'm getting and will stay on top of this and let everyone know what the scoop is.

Cheers Paul

Brent Drake

12-19-2005, 09:17 AM

I'm very glad your both alright. I think you done an excelant job considering you had only seconds to analize your situation, then try to overcome it. I hope your wife will give it a try again.
Brent

Doug Riley

12-19-2005, 09:21 AM

It's a little too easy to be Monday-morning quarterback while sitting calmly at a keyboard. An unusual, intermittent failure may cause you not to commit to an immediate landing; you can end up hesitating just long enough to make the outcome worse.

Here's a possibility for handling a situation like this in a way that might not bend the gear: Do get yourself pointed into the wind, as Paul did. However, it would be better to get your airspeed back FIRST, rather than ruddering around at low airspeed. Get the nose down NOW and worry about turning later.

Use the stick to do a last-minute, hard-banked turn to point into the wind right before touchdown. You'll get a cushioning effect from the increased RRPM. This can save your gear -- or even prevent a rollover -- when going into rough stuff.

Making yourself do this in a pinch is hard. Practice it mentally, though, and you'll be readier to go for it. Practice it for real if you have a safe place to do so -- but, please, not on an active airport runway.

All in all, that was a nice save in an unforgiving situation. You can even use the airplane again, with only minor repairs.

RICK MARTIN

12-19-2005, 09:22 AM

That's one heck of a wife you have there. After and experience like that, most women I know would give up. Congrats to her also!

Heron

12-19-2005, 11:13 AM

Glad you are all ok . . .the reactions coud'nt be better, if she is willing to try again, you have made an acomplice to more adventures.
NOw let's see the video
thanks
Heron

Heather Poe

12-19-2005, 11:18 AM

All in all, that was a nice save in an unforgiving situation.
I have begun to show my friends your video to illustrate how safe gyroplanes can be; I think you did a great job in a situation that did not allow for much contemplation.

Heron

12-19-2005, 11:31 AM

Qual o nome do video?
Heron
sorry . . .going crazy here . . . what's the video's name?
thanks

TomCarlisle

12-19-2005, 12:54 PM

I was downwind at 400' at Wachula when my engine quit. I got the nose down and kept the speed up and thought I could make the runway easily. After turning base, I saw I was getting too low, so I made a hard turn to the taxiway. I can testify that the hard, steep turn just before touching down, made the whole thing a non event. It was about 20 minutes later, as I was going over the the landing in my mind, that it hit me what I had just done. It took awhile to settle down, but no panic while the landing was in progress.

GyroRon

12-19-2005, 02:43 PM

Tom I had a engine out at Wauchula in your machine too. What is it about your machine and Wauchula? ;)

TomCarlisle

12-19-2005, 06:55 PM

Mine was a bad battery, the engine did not quit, it just went to idle because of low voltage. I really don't know how you boosted it to blow a spark plug. No problems last BD and I flew quite a bit. Maybe its because the computer is set for 6500 feet and Wachula is a little bit lower.

gyro

12-19-2005, 08:03 PM

Heron, the video is on my website...go to this page http://www.pipersprecisionproducts.com/videos.htm
and scroll to the bottom and you will see it on the left "close call"

jdalexa

12-20-2005, 07:57 AM

Paul,

If you could get some pictures of the landing gear after that landing, I for one, would be really appreciative. I'm deciding on an Air Command tandem or Golden Butterfly and am very curious as to how well the AC stood up to that landing.

Ability to take hard landings is a big factor for me since I'm getting my gyro CFI and will train studii in the machine I get.

Caribean_gyro

12-20-2005, 09:20 AM

iI wan to put one off does gun in my twinstar. I can use it for crime buster.

Rehan K.Janjua

12-20-2005, 10:11 AM

Hello Paul.

Nice job, well done.
Glad to see, both of you are OK.
Just Managed to down load the video. Thank You for letting all of us see it.
I will keep it, to show off, how safe a gyro can be in the hands of an experienced pilot.

Best Wishes and seasonal greetings.

Rehan Janjua
Air Command. Pakistan

gyro

12-20-2005, 12:34 PM

John Alexander, I posted the pics of the damaged landing gear. they are on this page at the bottom with the video link.

http://www.pipersprecisionproducts.com/videos.htm

Does anyone know how I can get the images on with my reply rather than re-routing to my website?

gyro

12-20-2005, 02:31 PM

ok...I figured it out, here they are. as you can see the damage was not to bad, considering...:D

17514

17515

17516

17517

scottessex

12-20-2005, 02:59 PM

I'll say you got out pretty good, You walked away, and the gyro will fly again.

This is how My arrow met its demise.:mad:

gyro

12-20-2005, 03:19 PM

Scott, What a mess and how on earth did you avoid the rotors?
Now that I saw your machine I would like to see Tim OConnor's as he stated he had a most unfortunate engine out carrying a passenger.

scottessex

12-20-2005, 05:23 PM

Paul, it was a roll over after an engine failure, (engine didn't quit, just kept loosing power), The axle bent on landing, and it rolled over when the blades slowed down the axle broke, The picture is after I turned it back up and the rotorblade is acting like a kick stand to keep it upright.

jdalexa

12-20-2005, 06:19 PM

lanichol

12-20-2005, 06:52 PM

Hmmm.. not too bad, considering. I'm really turned onto the G-Force gear that Larry Neal has on the Golden Butterfly. I really would like to see some sort of shock absorbing gear on the Air Commands.

I like the look of your Dominator style tail on your AC. You say you lost rudder authority. It looked like you were pretty slow, though. Did you feel you were in control for the landing?

Guys, remember the discussion in the link below. From what I could see in the video, there was limited places he could land based on the decent, fences and trees.

All the more reason for an axle/strut system that could take such a landing. Had this been a G-Force gear, I don't think there would have been any damage.

I'm asking because I don't understand the necessity. Why would anyone want to do a drop anyway? I can't imagine ever being in a situation that I would need such an apparatus. Don't get me wrong, It really works cool,but I have never landed hard enough to flex the bungee shocks on my gyrobee,let alone warrent a system that can handle a 20 ft drop! Seems like getting a good landing procedure down is the BEST insurance.. Saves weight and expense.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4718&page=2

Tina

12-20-2005, 07:36 PM

Hi Gyro People,

Thanks for sharing your video, Paul. I am still learning a lot from you all and read and read so hopfully if we keep this Gryo, which I hope, I can take this info and put it to good use.

Tina

Edwin Doetzel

12-21-2005, 08:30 AM

First, great work in handling the landing. You obviously responded in a positive way.

Was this a maintenance/airmanship issue or is the clutch simply not reliable?

gyro

12-21-2005, 08:38 AM

John, you right I did loss rudder authority but that was at the peak of my climb.(no airspeed) I used the stick to get turned around and once I lowered the nose I regained my rudder and turned it into the wind. I do agree with the AC's needing some better shock absorbency gear. When I make the repairs I am going to incorporate some form of shock system.

gyro

12-21-2005, 08:44 AM

Edwin, I was told that those gearboxes work a lot better with transmission fluid. I don’t know what fluid is in there now (just bought the machine used this summer) as I have only checked the level of it. If it has some form of 90W gear lube then I can understand it not working right especially in this cold weather.

LARRYEBOYER

12-21-2005, 11:32 AM

Tina, I am looking for a woman just like you. Please send picture of Jeep, Corvette, and motorcycle!!!

Chopper Reid

12-21-2005, 06:53 PM

I'm not trying to be critical BUT, there really should not have been a hard landing at all !! There was sufficient height on your side as well. The golden rule [and it dosent matter if the engine is running or not,] airspeed has to be maintained at best glide speed anytime a problem arises !!

You did a good job at the finish to keep the gyro straight so well done there but you did forget those valuable rotors, the ride isnt finished till those are stopped .

Timchick

12-21-2005, 07:22 PM

Scott,
Do you think Gregg's top secret AC strutts would've taken that landing OK?

scottessex

12-22-2005, 02:01 AM

I am sure that they wouldn't have made anything worse!

gyromike

12-22-2005, 06:12 AM

Scott,

What kind of shocks are used on Greg's machine?

scottessex

12-22-2005, 06:27 AM

That is the problem, He brought Me the shocks, and I don't know where they came from! I think I have located a source for them, (or at least as close a I can get) I need to get a set and try them out on Phil's air Command.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5074

GyroRon

12-22-2005, 06:31 AM

In the case of a landing as hard as this one, Gregs shocks would immediately bottom out and it would be just as hard as if there was no shocks at all. The G-force landing gear is the only gear on the market that would make a difference in a vertical landing as hard as that one.

The drawback to G force landing gear is it is not suspension. It provides no shock absorbsion as you taxi on rough ground, or as you takeoff. During those modes of operation the gyro is just as stiff as a gyro with no shocks of any kind. Plus the G force gear is not exactly light weight either. Oh and it is kinda expensive as well....

Shocks that are soft enough to damp out the ride during taxi and takeoff like Gregs shock system or the shocks on a Dominator etc... do a great job of softing out the ride cutting down on wear and tear on the gyro. But in a hard vertical landing like this one they offer little as they too easily bottom out.

For me I would rather have the soft ride suspension that Greg has or Dominators have etc.... There was no reason for the hard vertical landing we see in this video. The number one rule taught in aviation is if you ever loose the engine on takeoff to NEVER turn back to the runway, to fly it straight ahead and maintain airspeed. Perhaps there was nothing good to land on in front of him, so I won't judge his judgement, I will just say he could have maintained airspeed and with the airspeed and flare at the right momment and the engine out landing would have been baby butt smooth.

I plopped in my old two place gyro just as hard once when I had my first engine out with it so I know where he is coming from with the 180 back to the strip.

gyromike

12-22-2005, 08:37 AM

Tina

12-22-2005, 07:45 PM

Tina, I am looking for a woman just like you. Please send picture of Jeep, Corvette, and motorcycle!!!

Larry there is not much info on your profile? Why? If you send me more info on you, maybe I will share more on me.

Tina

GyroRon

12-22-2005, 07:59 PM

Tina, here is Larry.

Timchick

12-22-2005, 08:43 PM

Ron,
You should've at least waited to see what picture he was going to send her.

GyroRon

12-23-2005, 05:52 AM

Like the one of him in his Elvis costume? ;)

Tina

12-23-2005, 06:27 PM

Hi Ron and Tim,

looks like a good guy, and I loooove Elvis!!

Tina

gyro

12-24-2005, 05:49 AM

what have you guys done to my posting?? will I get any credit if they hit it off...LOL. We'll this is got sombody "all shook up uhuh" Cheers Paul

Tina

12-24-2005, 08:08 AM

what have you guys done to my posting?? will I get any credit if they hit it off...LOL. We'll this is got sombody "all shook up uhuh" Cheers Paul

I am sorry Paul, I will try and stay on the subject (Posting) next time. All you Gyro guys are so much fun, I forget about my manners.

Tina,
Gyro Newbie

scott heger

12-25-2005, 10:39 AM

Is there a chance that the prop "cavitated"? That would expalin the in and out engagement feeling. Glad you got out of it safely with your wife, mine would be telling me to sell that thing right now! I think a little more airspeed from your height would have resulted in a zero damage landing, terrain permitting.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH