Where/how to start??? Need help

[magilla]

Hi everybody. Great site. I am hooked already.

My name is Spencer Robinson, and I live in Little Rock, AR.

I have loved gyros since I first saw them.

Question is - how do I get started?
Where to get engines?
what type?
Props? variable speed, variable pitch? size? ugh...any formulas out there? Or are you supposed to guess?
rotor blades? what size? what are advantages and disadvantages to sizes/types?
prerotors? hyd/manual/electric....
heads? two or three bades? advantages?
the questions go on and on. I'm sure I'll get steered in the right direction.

I am a UH-60 Blackhawk test pilot, and I love the tractor designs:

Want either the Little Wing LW-4 or 5, or the pitbull 2-seater. Need a convincing argument either way for short or long frame LW, and comparison to pitbull. What are pros and cons?

Also, I saw in pra that the pitbull comes in more versions than just the ultralight - they have a single and two-seater versions - I am 6'4" and 275, so I need something that will work for me.

Anyone have any contact information for pitbull? No phone number, and the email address posted on this forum does not work...are they still in business??

Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

I got back fom Iraq earlier this year, and I saved up some money for a "project." Instead of a Harley, I wanted to build a tractor gyo and put it on a trailer.

Anyway, my questions:

1) contact info for pitbull manufacturer?
2) relative benefits of LW vs. pitbull
3) has anyone thought of using a rotary engine? (mazda rx-7 engine)

Thanks!!!

Oh yeah, if anyone is local to little rock ad is building one, would love to know.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Welcome aboard. My name is John and I'm currently building a Littlewing LW-4. The guy who designed and builds them is right down the road from you. His name is Ron Herron and here is his website and contact info.

http://www.littlewingautogyro.com/

The Littlewing Autogyro is a tube and fabric bird based off of the J-3 Cub. Therefore, build is somewhat similar less wings of course:D .

The PittBull on the other hand his a keel/ mast (like a Bensen but in tractor form) with a fiberglass body. I imagine the build would be easier.

As far as which of these birds are for you, is your choice of course, but I choose the LW any day of the week.

The Littlewing has alot of protection (roll over) that the Pitbull does not. The littlewing has alot more builders choice type options (like engines) that the Pitbull does not. The littlewing is a proven and "Record Setting" track record. I've only seen one pittbull fly, and it was scary to watch. Ron Awad flew it and he could tell you more about the Pitbull than I.

I will be the first to tell you that building a LW isn't easy. It's very time consuming, but I believe the effort will be worth it. I bought the complete airframe from Ron Herron to include control systems, tail feathers and landing gear. He also got the engine mount for the engine I am using.

Single seat Littlewings can be powered by a mac, VW, Hirth, Rotax, Rotec, and maybe even a Subaru. Two seaters can be powered by the same with more power of course. There is about a 215lb wieght limit on the engines making the Mazda on the heavy side. The record setting LW is powered by the Rotax 914.

I trying a unique combination of a 2276VW engine with a 2:1 redrive and liquid cooled heads. Supposed to be 120hp (peak) and 100hp constant. I'll be swinging an 80 inch Price "P" tip prop. I chose the long frame because they are taildraggers and I was worried the short would be a little too squirrly for me.

Screw-Out

[scottessex]

Go see Ron Menzie over in Searcy Ar. He can give you a ride, as well as training and help you decide what gyro would be best for you. The little wing is alot of work, and will take time to build, or you could plop down about the same amount of cash a new Harley would cost and get a new gyro ready to fly (ultrawhite dominator) and get right on with the flying.
http://www.ronsgyros.com/
http://www.rotorflightdynamicsinc.com/

[magilla]

Thanks for the replies...just so you know, I've spent half a year researching - it's almost a case of too much information!!!!

I have read posts and articles from Ron Herron at his site, to include all of the record breaking achievements...

Ron is 6'4", so I'd guess the LW would fit just about right. Also, he's just up the road from where I work.

Was just looking for a second vote, and to see if anyone knew anything about the pitbull in comparison to the LW. Gotta admit, the pitbulls do look good.

OK, so I think I'm sold on the LW. I'll talk to Ron Herron and figure out what I need to do to get started. Also pros and cons to LW-4 and LW-5.

So, about 100HP continuous is the optimum? Is that what I'm hearing?

What is the max hp for the LW?

Also - does anyone have any performance info with different powerplants?
Hirth H3- vs Rotax 914turbo vs. Subaru vs. VW ??? Would like to see performance relative to engines installed, everything else being equal.

Has anyone figured out the strut deal for the LW? I read the other post, and I think that a strut and landing assembly like that on the monarch could be adapted fairly easily to the LW. I dunno.

Screw, whatcha gonna do??

Also - do you have a website? Are you keeping a builder's log??? Would be very interested.

Again, thanks for the help so far.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Well, this is my builders website and Scott Essex and I are building it. To answer your questions (You have alot):

Rotax 914 has so far been the best performing engine for this aircraft. 125hp liquid cooled 4 stroke but expensive. The Rotax 912 should be fine at 100hp. The Hirth F-30 (115hp) is what Ron is using on his and he also has one with a Rotec Radial at 115hp. Ron also has one (single seater) with a direct drive VW. Some where between 100hp and above at a wieght under 215lbs is optimum.

I dunno about the pitbulls. Not my bag.

As far as the gear goes.....I don't see a need for the G Force gear. Why add the wieght. I don't plan on landing my LW "Stop & Drop" style.

As with any Aircraft you'll ever build, the lighter, the better.

Screw-Out

[bartc150]

You might want to look at this one.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6747&highlight=radial

[GyroRon]

The pit bull is a piece of crap. The rotorhead and control systems is subpar from traditional gyros, the framework is okay but the landing gear is rigid. The rudder pedals and braking setup is a joke, etc.... etc.... All the pitbull has going for it is the neat looking fiberglass body, otherwise it would need alot of modification to amount to much. If you really want to go with the pitbull, I would buy it minus the rotorhead, blades and controls and rudder pedal assembly and have all of those things made custom for you and stronger than what PitBull provides.

The Littlewing is a better machine, just takes more time to build.

[Screw]

Screw-In

LOL.....Ron, I didn't want to say it cause I've never flown one, but you about covered the way I feel on the subject of the Pittbull.

I'm still laughing. Your PC skills are tickle the sh*t out of me. You are my Hero.

Screw-Out

[KenSandyEggo]

If you're getting interested in gyros, the smartest thing you can do is gather up all your cash, sew it up in a bag and go hide in the woods for a year or 2 until you lose the urge.

[Dick Illyes]

This guy is designing a new two place tractor gyro kit.

http://www.raven-rotor.com/html/rotocraft.html

I was going to start a SparrowHawk last fall but some other factors made me put it off. Now I plan to wait until I see what the Raven Redrive guy is doing.

I really want a tractor and am also considering a scratch built project along the lines of what Michael Guard did with his Airborne 200: http:www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6553

[Brent_Brown]

You will be very old when or if you get to fly a Raven gyro.
It is sad they still have that on the web site.
They never ever reply to emails and they don't have the time to deal with you.

[Dick Illyes]

I called him within the last two weeks and got an almost immediate return call and talked for over half an hour. They are moving into a new location in New Mexico and expect to have something at OSH in 2006.

I bought his book on using the three cylinder Geo Metro engine and thought it was very well done. I had thought about using the Geo engine on a scratch built gyro like Michael Guard's.

[Brent_Brown]

OK you got the luck. I would not look at the three but go with the 1300cc DOHC 4 cylinder. If at all.

[Rehan K.Janjua]

Hello Spencer.

Welcome to the worlds best Rotary Wing Forum.
Bet you will get more then what you asked for.
Specially... Truth and nothing but the Truth.
Thats the best part and important.
Keep your fingers crossed and choose whats best for you.
Glad to hear that you are back safe, from the hell hole (Iraq).
Greetings and best Regards.

Rehan Janjua
Air Command. Pakistan

[richard lidke]

Hi everybody. Great site. I am hooked already.

My name is Spencer Robinson, and I live in Little Rock, AR.

I have loved gyros since I first saw them.

Question is - how do I get started?
Where to get engines?
what type?
Props? variable speed, variable pitch? size? ugh...any formulas out there? Or are you supposed to guess?
rotor blades? what size? what are advantages and disadvantages to sizes/types?
prerotors? hyd/manual/electric....
heads? two or three bades? advantages?
the questions go on and on. I'm sure I'll get steered in the right direction.

I am a UH-60 Blackhawk test pilot, and I love the tractor designs:

Want either the Little Wing LW-4 or 5, or the pitbull 2-seater. Need a convincing argument either way for short or long frame LW, and comparison to pitbull. What are pros and cons?

Also, I saw in pra that the pitbull comes in more versions than just the ultralight - they have a single and two-seater versions - I am 6'4" and 275, so I need something that will work for me.

Anyone have any contact information for pitbull? No phone number, and the email address posted on this forum does not work...are they still in business??

Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

I got back fom Iraq earlier this year, and I saved up some money for a "project." Instead of a Harley, I wanted to build a tractor gyo and put it on a trailer.

Anyway, my questions:

1) contact info for pitbull manufacturer?
2) relative benefits of LW vs. pitbull
3) has anyone thought of using a rotary engine? (mazda rx-7 engine)

Thanks!!!

Oh yeah, if anyone is local to little rock ad is building one, would love to know.


Hello Spencer, Booster Rich here.

Been building three Littlewing 2+2 for two years of part time work. It is a rewarding and interesting project. I did not buy a prebuit airframe, but have followed the plans and built all of my own parts.

I have done all the machining of all the parts for four Littlewings, three of which have been worked on here at my shop. The fourth set of parts are spares, which are available to whomever gets the templates which I am willing to sell if my friend down south of St. Louis is willing to give up first refusal on them.

My friend Bob Randall, has discovered to his disappointment, that he has sugar problems, and does not believe he can get his medical. He has the third Airframe which we were all working on available for sale. In addition, with his airframe, goes all the parts which were made by me during this time to be used on that airframe, saving a tremendous amount of time in the building process. This airframe has both sides, the bottom, top, and the tail and nose pulled together, ready for further work.

The parts which are already made, would allow a builder to get his unit to the same point that I am at at this time, and that Jim Mc Neilly is at at this time. All materials are per the specifications, no shoddy stuff, and are made exactly to the plans. This includes the cheek plates, all mast parts, internal tube mast assembly, landing gear struts finished welded painted, rudder finished welded, front seat welded and painted, all four rudder pedals welded with inserted teflon bushings painted, joystick finished and painted, he also has the front wheels and axels from Matco, and the brakes and a brake fluid reservior, unfinished tail wheel spring, and other small parts, too many to mention.

If you were to come here, you could see all the work I have completed, and see all the parts and jigs, that I am talking about. In addition, Ron and I have been in constant communication, allowing the latest in revisions and supplements to be incorporated in our work as it progresses. You are about one day good drive one way from me. Ron has been here and seen our operation, so you can check with him on his thoughts of our work. The frame I mentioned of Bob's is tack welded, ready for finish welding, which you or he could provide. I do have an assembly fixture, which allows rotating the entire frame horizontally for finish welding, which I will be doing this spring. All of our finish welding is being done in accordance with EAA standards and their course in welding, which Bob Randall attended at OSHKOSH. We are using all certified welding materials which were hard to find, but we have plenty, and I am sure that Bob will include this material with the ship when he sells it. All the construction materials are 4130 chromoloy steel, per the specifications.

Hope to hear from you. And hope you will join us as a Littlewing Booster fraternity member. No fee, no meetings, just good friends and fun in building.

Booster Rich :) :)

[richard lidke]

Hello Spencer.

Welcome to the worlds best Rotary Wing Forum.
Bet you will get more then what you asked for.
Specially... Truth and nothing but the Truth.
Thats the best part and important.
Keep your fingers crossed and choose whats best for you.
Glad to hear that you are back safe, from the hell hole (Iraq).
Greetings and best Regards.

Rehan Janjua
Air Command. Pakistan

Rehan, so nice to hear from a fellow gyro/pilot from across the pond.

Please keep in touch and keep us up to date on your operations. My friend Jim Mc Nielly's brother Joseph just came home from Iraq, after a year of duty there. Jim is building a two place Littlewing, and already has one completed as a single place. He just got his pilots license and should be flying the single place this summer. You can see his and my exploits here on the tractor gyro strings.

Best Regards Booster Rich.:) :)

[Mike Schallmann]

Booster Rich

Why dosent your friend go with the Sport Pilots License - no Medical Required and from all other aspects the LW will meet the Sport Lisc Criteria. Register it as an EXPERIMENTAL and he is good to go !!

[richard lidke]

Booster Rich

Why dosent your friend go with the Sport Pilots License - no Medical Required and from all other aspects the LW will meet the Sport Lisc Criteria. Register it as an EXPERIMENTAL and he is good to go !!

Mike, that suggestion has come up. I believe that he had already taken and failed the medical. Once this happens, you can't get the sport license. Dumb, but the mentality of the FAA can never be challenged. I wish he would try anyway, but, I can only suggest you understand. Thanks for your suggestion.

Booster Rich.:) :)

[magilla]

I feel rather fortunate - I got the opportunity to go to North Little Rock airport and meet with Ron Herron, and look at three LW's, to include Andy Keech's record setting LW.

Result: I was impressed / awed / overwhelmed - what else can I say??

Ron had the patience to answer three million (plus) questions in 3 hours!! Ron Herron is a very nice, genuine, and intelligent person. He is also one hell of a designer and engineer. Neat guy.

So much for sewing up the money in a bag and wishing the urge would go away over the next two years (that was funny) - I bought a set of plans!!

Booster Rich - I am extremely interested the parts that you have fashioned, and the airframe that your friend has built. It is unfortunate that he cannot finish his quest, and I feel badly for him.

I don't know - it might be Karma - his airframe is only tack-welded, and I am planning on "stretching" the width and the height of the LW to fit me more comfortably - that is, make it 30" wide and stretch the cabin height a few inches so I don't bang my head.

I would also be interested in the templates you have, especially if the St. Louis connection doesn't work out!!!

Count me in as a booster fraternity member!!!!

I am currently at the stage of examining LW pans, looking at how to build a "flat" table to make my own jigs, and buying a set of trailer plans to learn how to MIG weld (by building my LW trailer first).

I am going to research engines up until the day that the airframe is finished - I need to look at the Willam Wynne Corvair engine a little closer, but it looks like I will end up going the Rotax 912S route if it doesn't pan out.

The one thing that I am really looking at though is to make the pedals a little bigger. I don't know - flying a Huey and a Blackhawk has spoiled me when it comes to pedals, and I have cloddhopper sized 14's - looking to build in a little more room for my feet and get some decent-sized pedals!!! (I sat in the LW-3 with the Rotec Radial - there is a definite benefit to seeing the acft in person and being able to sit in one)

Rich, please contact me through email at - swrobinson@prodigy.net

Thanks - and I guess I have "joined the club" officially because my wife is appalled at the amount of time I spend on my gyro dream!! (but she grudgingly supports me!!!)

Anyway thanks to all that have answered - I appreciate all of the advice so far.

So now - onto a bigger question:
Where do you find metallurgical values? i.e. - how do you determine what size metal tubing is sufficient for what application??? Where to go 5/8" vs. 1 inch vs. 1/4" ?? And why?? What is the tensile strength of different diameters, and what is recommended strength?? Any rules of thumb?

[richard lidke]

Hi Spencer. Booster Rich. I may be able to part with the jigs and more. Let me know if you are still interested.

Thanks Booster Rich. pilotnow2003@yahoo.com