Warp Drive Failures

[Steven_Kozned]

Hi All:
Always thought I'd order a Warp Drive Prop due to their supposed reliability and ease of repair.
What I found when looking on the internet was dozens of hit relating to failures surfaced, mostly for direct drive applications, but several
from use on a Rotax 912S. The issues are cracking hubs and disintegrating blades. What are your thoughts?

[GyroRon]

I know a Ton of people who have or do run a warp drive and never heard of any problems with them. I would use Warp drive and not think twice about it. my two cents.

[GyroRon]

Steve..... Don't believe everything you read on the internet!

[GyroRon]

also I would guess that over half of the props used on gyros, ultralights, light experimentals and airboats use warp drive. If these props had problems they wouldn't be the number 1 prop on the market.

Ask anyone who flys a RAF 2000 or any of the guys with the Subaru or Mazda engine powered gyros or planes. These engines put alot more power and stress on the prop than your Rotax will and try to see how many people you can find with prop problems. Like I said I haven't come across one yet.

[Gordon Gibson]

Steve, I fully concur with GyroRon's post ('Reply #1).

Thanks, Gordon Gibson.

[mceagle]

Stephen,
I concur with GyroRon.

Could you please publish here the well documented multiple instances of prop failures on a Rotax 912S. and the Dozens of hits relating to failures on Warp Drive props.
We have been using Warp Drives on engines that would make a 912S look anemic - with no problems.

[GyroRon]

Steve be sure to do a search on Airboats. some of the older boats still run old airplane engines with the airplanes old prop, But most newer airboats use high performance Chevy or Ford V-8 engines with belt reduction drives and 4 or 6 blade warp drive props. These engines put out 300,400, 500+ horsepower to the same prop your going to use on the little 912..... But if you want to try something else go ahead. The Prince P tip is a nice prop. But for me my money would go to Warp drive.

[Harry_S.]

Steve;

I have the Warp 3-blade on my RAF. I also went with the solid hub. It's stronger and looks better than that butt ugly blocked hub.

[cgmg]

When I was learning to fly, my instructor was using a Rotax 583 in his Tandem Air Command, with a Warp Drive prop. I don't remember the details, but something in the prop failed twice while I was learning, forcing a long downtime both times. My instructor eventually switched to Powerfin, and didn't have any more problems.

In Warp Drive's defense, the 583 quit on my instructor several times, and he eventually sold it, and installed a 912. My guess is he is flying it with a Powerfin prop, since he is a dealer for them. Can't say for sure, though, since he moved to Arizona, and I haven't talked with him lately.

I fly with a Powerfin, and am extremely happy with both it and the Powerfin people. They always deliver parts when promised, are easygoing on the phone, and are priced pretty reasonable.

Like Gyro Ron likes to say, "Just my two cents worth".

Mark

[rehler]

Steve,

I prefer the lighter props like Powerfin rather than the heavy Warp Drive. I believe they respond quicker, are smoother running and do less damage to the hub and the reduction gears.

I have been looking at props for my 912S and feel that the best are Arplast, DUC Prop, Kiev Hot prop and Sport Prop. I have had bad experience with the Powerfin as it had less thrust and more noise than my Sport Prop. Right now I have narrowed my selection to Arplast wide blade (like the one used by Magni) for dependability and reputation or the Kiev Hot Prop wide blade (becoming very popular and less expensive) for the design, quiet performance and the metal leading edge.

[gyroman]

Here's one for you Ken....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26439&item=2468712 317

[MikeBoyette]

Steven,
My Dad has been using Warp Drive props for years and has never had a problem. Dr. Bill Clem has one on his Record setting 914 powered Dominator, and he has over 500 hrs. on it. I don't know for a fact, but I don't think he has a problem. I would be interested to find out which hub it is that is having problems. We have allways used the machined HPL hub. It's a little more expensive, but worth it. I also agree with Ron it is about toughest prop out there. There is one prop I would stay away from. We had a Dominator loose two of it's GSC blades The Pilot was able to get the aircraft on the ground in one piece. This was probably not totally the prop's fault.The gyro had been sitting for a number of years without being even started. I for one have this kind of prop and will, when finances will allow replace it with a Warp Drive. :)

[PW_Plack]

Steven,

You can't evaluate the complaints unless you know how many WD props are in use. The Honda Camry is the most-stolen car in the US, but it's also the number one seller, so what does that really mean?

As for the UK 50-hour rule, consider the source. The UK's CAA also bans horizontal stabilizers on the RAF 2000.

Next time you call Jim Vanek to check on the progress of your tail feathers, ask him. He's probably flown them all.

[RHerron]

Steve,

First of all, the problem with the Jabiru was the direct-drive installation. The 912 isn't direct-drive.
Secondly, the other issue for 912's was with 2-bladed Warp-Drives and the recommendation was to go to the 3-bladed.
I have used them on everything from the McCulloch drones to Lycoming 180 hp.
Our 914 has 200 hours of trouble-free time with a 3-bladed Warp-Drive
There are likely better performing props available but none with as much time-in-service as the Warps.

[PW_Plack]

Steven,

Electric variable pitch has been described as wasted weight and cost on gyros by many people, but Jim's got the NSI electric prop pitch system on his two-place, and says it's a huge step forward for torquey engines, of which the 912 is one. At cruise, he says he can dial the RPM on his Subaru down as low as 3800, and says it gets so quiet you can hear the rotor blades. He told me it's worth every bit of the weight.

Now, on something as light as a Vortex single-place, it might not be...

[Douglas Riley]

Even in our relatively slow machines, you will notice in setting prop pitch that you have to compromise between cruise pitch and climb pitch. For no-compromise climb performance, the engine should redline at wide-open throttle and best-rate-of-climb airspeed. At this pitch setting, however, the engine will overspeed if you open the throttle while at cruising airspeed. An alternative "cruise" pitch setting would be the one at which the engine doesn't redline until some airspeed above cruise. The difference between these two settings represents a potential benefit from a flight-adjustable prop.

That is, if you don't mind the cost, weight, complexity and possible consequences of malfunction.

[rehler]

Toby,

Yes I have seen this one. It is exactly like the one I have and love. A great prop for someone, but with my new engine I now need one that turns the other way (left hand) and longer 68" rather than 65"

Thanks.

[docjon]

Read carefully!!! Most of these problems were a couple of years ago. Plus, most were related to Jabiru/Warp drive combinations with 2 blades. The others appear to have been 2 blade configs. Didn't see anything recent.

[GyroRon]

Steve why did you erase your post? you change you mind again???

Paul, I would like to see one of those Honda Camrys! Maybe one of those Toyota Accords too while your at it! ;)

[birdy]

I didn't pick that up,gose to show I'm thick and blind :(,a Honda Camery would be an interesting cross. ???

The only thing I can think of that would make a warp drive hub crack up on a 4 banger Rotax would be letting it idel too low.They don't have much in the way of fly weight on the crank and they chatter like sh.t if idling too slow.

Been using WDs on the 912 ferel for years ,the one thats on it now has been there for around 700 hours,the only thing is they don't seem to handle is sandblasting during warmup as well as an Ivo mag{which is on the 914]
Just my 1.5 cents worth.

[Harry_S.]

Birdy;

You're allright.

[GyroRon]

Steven no disrespect but I think if you are approaching the whole gyro build as you are the prop purchase... I can see why it has been so long for you.

9 out of 10 people would just order a Warp drive or a Ivo or whatever type of prop they typically see used on their type of machines and move on to the next item on the list.

Props are props. some will be a little quieter some a little more performance. On a noisy gyro and a draggy machine like a gyro the gain from one prop over another is not going to be much of a difference. So IMHO you should buy the most long living prop you can buy. Most all other props on the market will be ruined by anything passing through the prop. Warp Drive is the only one I know will stand up to abuse. But it is still just a prop and it is only money. If you are spooked on warp drives cause a few people had problems - mainly from using in wrong applications - then buy the Hot Prop or the Arplast, If they bust into a thousand pieces cause your gas cap came undone and went trough the prop it is only money to buy another prop Right?! ;)

I am kinda just teasing you Steven, But dang man just order one and get to flying already!

[quadrirotor]

Choose a prop which has the lowest rotation inertia, not to be bothered by bad gyroscopic effects!... a wooden prop like the one of the Paul Bruty gyro seems OK.

[Aussie_Paul]

Ron, it could get exciting and be sad if the gas cap went through the prop and the prop went to peices and into the rotor.

Not very likely but I impress on my students that,

"everything between your hand grip on the control stick, to the rotor blade tips, is what keeps you alive. Most other failures you may wreck the gyro but you will live. I put propeller failure in the same boat."

Geez I have put some hard hours on W/drive props. I lived the blades with the inlaid nickel leading edge.

All the "one size fits all types of aircraft" props are not very efficient on any of those aircraft.

The only reason for going to the timber was a specialist design to do a particular job, including the noise factor.

I wish we could get the timber as tough as the W/Drive. When we get serious I am sure that we will get close enough.

Aussie Paul.

[KenSandyEggo]

I switched from the WARP prop on mine to a Prince because...........why did I switch? I forget. Someone must have convinced me that I needed to spend $900 on something. Anyway, I'm glad I switched. Nothing wrong with the WARP except it was extremely noisier than the Prince. On my first take-off run, the added acceleration was very noticeable, but I never did any real testing. As far as cruise-speed changes.....as stated, who can tell in a draggy gyro?

Here's something that I was told by a fellow airport rat, Maurice, last week. He owns a Lancair 235, which has the 115 or so horse Lyc in it. I don't know what prop he had on there before, but it was a nice looking wooden one. After listening to my endless yakking about how quiet the Prince was and how I noticed the increased acceleration, he went ahead and ordered one. He ordered a white one, but Lonnie accidently shipped a black one. When he opened the crate, the black one was so gorgeous, he kept it. It is sharp looking.

Anyway, Maurice reported to me that after flying it for a few weeks and running 2-way speed checks, he confirmed that he has gained 15 KNOTS in his cruise speed at the same engine rpm. He used to get around 160 at cruise and is now getting 175. That impressed me. He did NOT order a cruise prop.

[GyroRon]

A prince prop is a two blade wooden prop coated with a layer of fiberglass or carbon fiber. the tips of the prop are curved back to reduce noise. The prop looks like it has had a ground strike and that is how it is made. Great prop but fixed pitch so you have to order the right one.

Look no prop is never going to break. Warp drives are just real strong, but the downside is they are heavy and loud. If not for what happened to my warp on my red Dominator I would not endorse them and I would just say use one of these newer imported props.

What happened to my red dominator was last year at Bensen days while flying in the pattern I heard a loud pop and the engine nearly stopped for a second and then it was back to normal. It scared the heck out of me so I landed and pulled off to see what happened. I looked for anything that could have gone through the prop and looked at the prop itself for damage and at first all I saw was a chip missing from the prop about 2/3s in from the tip on one blade. But after looking it over for a few minutes someone else pointed out that my wheel that tightens the belt for the hydro pre rotator was missing. This wheel is pretty big at least 2 inches wide and 3 inches in diameter and solid aluminum. It and half of the shaft and arm it was attached to - which broke for some reason - went through the prop.We then saw it damaged the prop right at the hub putting a gash into the blade and the hub itself and then the next blade came around and took out a chip. That was all, everyone looked it over and said it was fine not to worry about it. The gyro is still flying with that same prop.

Could the same thing happen with some of these other props? I can't say. Will they hold up reasonably well? I also can't say. I do know the Warp drive is strong.

Ken, I don't see any of the props loosing a blade and just giving a little vibration and the warp being so much heavier it will cause the engine to fall off. I think that would happen with pretty much all props.

[KenSandyEggo]

http://www.princeaircraft.com/

There's the Prince site. When I got my prop, it was over-revving a little. I sent it back and Lonnie adjusted it. In my case, he widened it by adding another coat of the clear epoxy. That extended the trailing edge and brought the revs down. Likewise, he can trim it down if it's under-revving. He has enough experience now that he can pretty much nail it by your engine, h.p. and usage. I ordered the same pitch as Gary Brewer, but Gary had the plain wood one without the epoxy, which is beefier. The props with the epoxy are able to be cut thinner.

[KenSandyEggo]

Pre-conversion pic of prop.

[KenSandyEggo]

Another

[KenSandyEggo]

One more. I can take some new pics of the prop if anyone wants better views.

[gyromike]

Have any of ya'll tried a tapered-blade Warp Drive?

A friend of mine had 3-bladed tapered Warp on a Rans S-7 w/ 912S, and it was very quiet. It also has a radius on the trailing edge (or maybe the leading edge).

I don't know how much thrust it had compared to the regular Warp, but the Rans would climb like crazy.

Passing overhead at about 4000 engine RPM, it was barely noticeable.

[KenSandyEggo]

Someone came out a few years ago with drawings for rounding the tips of the WARP blades to quiet them. The WARP people were totally against it at first, but I believe they then started offering the trimming if you sent your blades in. I had the pattern and marker and was all ready to go, but I chickened out at the last minute. I was afraid of throwing them off-balance if I didn't cut each one precisely and exact.

[rehler]

Ron, you said: "Ken, I don't see any of the props loosing a blade and just giving a little vibration and the warp being so much heavier it will cause the engine to fall off. I think that would happen with pretty much all props. "

The engine falling off was what I read from the earlier "Warp Drive Failures" listed a week or so ago. I don't know of such an event first hand, just what I read.

As for the loosing a prop blade causing vibration, that I have experienced. See the attached photo. A piece of my stainless steel muffler went through my prop and cut one blade off. It vibrated a lot (not a "little" vibration - it shook a lot, but not enough to cause any harm) and I idled down and landed. No problems at all, except replacing the prop.

I guess it's just preference, but I like the light props better, even if they are not as strong - just smoother, more responsive with less stress on the transmission and engine.

[Scooter]

Never mind!

[rehler]

Larry,

No I didn't notice. That's good!

I hope all their hub problems are gone now, as there are a LOT of Warp Drive props flying - probably the most popular prop in the US.

[rehler]

Steven,

If "Ken" is me (Ken Rehler) then no, I do not have a Prince prop. I have a Sport Prop which does have the curved "P-tip" ends. Very quiet as a result. Several photos are on my web site - www.rvk-architects.com/ken/gyro/

If "Ken" is Ken J. (Sandyeggo Ken) then yes, he has a beautiful Prince prop. He also has photos on his web site.

[KenSandyEggo]

I'll take a few closeups of it and post them later, Steve.

[MikeBoyette]

Welcome back Ken we all missed you. I hope all is well in SandyEggo.

[KenSandyEggo]

Thanks, Mike...and everyone else that welcomed me back. For those that aren't happy I'm back....be quiet! :) Things are normalizing some. David's still in the hospital. Been over 3 months now. We just got in a rhythm with that and now Demetra's 92 year old dad died in Greece on Saturday. She couldn't go to the funeral because of David's condition, but she's coping pretty well. I finish school at the end of this month, so I'll have more time for my therapy....flying my gyro. The State Boards don't happen for about 3 months (thank you, inefficient California), so I'll have time to work on my gyro. I've already started some upgrades, like the FI system and flying more.

[KenSandyEggo]

Here are some closeups of my Prince. The red color distorts some. The alternator picture shows a better way of mounting it. Originally, the plans called for separate bolts through each rod-end bearing. Many, including me, suffered a rash of broken rod-ends, even with upgraded ones. By going to a single bolt all the way through both rod-ends, the problem is eliminated. A broken mount on the alternator can ruin your day. I had one crack on a night flight with a CFI while doing my night requirements for the rotorcraft rating. Luckily we were only a couple miles from the airport.

[Harry_S.]

K.J.

What brand and model camera do you use?

I have to get something to use, instead of words.

[KenSandyEggo]

It's an Olympus Stylus 300 Digital.

[Chopper Reid]

Warp Drive , tough as nails, thought mine was stuffed when the gyro finished upside down after nosewheel stuck in loose surface upon takeoff, one blade had a distinct bend in it but straightened after the gyro was lifted off it and al three blades now have over 3,000 hours on them with absolutely no problems !!
They get driven by a 2.2 Suburu through a Rotax gearbox.
Brian

[Chuck Irby]

Thanks Brian. That's encouraging. The only problem I've ever had with them was when I tried to run them in dirt (the ground).

[birdy]

3000 hours on a warp drive? :eek: You obviosly don't have much sand there Chopp ;) .The ones I'v got on at the moment only have bout 600 hours on'm and they is only half as thick as they were new :( .Even with SS tape on the LE.
Mebe I am fly'n too low. :D

[Chuck Irby]

Steven, my newest Warp Drive blades (just 60") perform properly. However, they are out of track about 1/2". Warp Drive said that was within tolerance. Hmmmm??

[KenSandyEggo]

Well, I was going to keep my mouth shut about this, but in keeping with the spirit of learning from other's mistakes.........NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER LAY TOOLS DOWN ON ANY PART OF THE ENGINE OR GYRO WHILE YOU'RE WORKING ON SOMETHING!!!! I have promised myself to never do that......at least 28 times.

I wanted to snug up my prerotator belt, which requires 3 hands, so I unloosened the bracket just slightly and got a regular carpenter's hammer to tap on the bottom of the bracket to snug the belt up. Once it was tight, I laid the hammer down to take up the 2 wrenches to tighten the bolt.

I then pulled her outside between the hangars to get ready to taxi to the runup area. I started her up and heard this loud THWACK! I shut her down and got out to see what happened. First thing I saw was a small chunk out of the edge of one of the Warp blades, and that was it. I then looked around on the ground to see what flew off. There was nothing laying on the asphalt. Then I remembered placing the hammer on the top of my brand new radiator while I tightened the belt bracket, but where was it? And I was considering installing my newly-reconditioned Prince prop a little earlier. Thank goodness I didn't.

I was between two of the rows of hangars and they are a good 15 feet tall. They are also double, with each set of hangars facing in opposite directions, so the hangar buildings must be 40 feet across (I'm estimating). Where the heck was the hammer? I said "Naaaaaaah.......it couldn't have flown over the hangars! I walked over to the next row and there she lay, right in the center of the asphalt between the hangars. It flew completely over the next hangar building. :eek: I think I fell to my knees or something, thankful there wasn't a plane taxiing in or out or someone walking by. Luckily, there was no one present in that row of hangars (or mine).

The hammer had a long cut on its cushioned handle, where the prop struck it. So drop the darn tool on the floor if you need to ditch it quickly. Don't place it anywhere on the gyro! :o Repeat 50 times.......100 for me.

[Chopper Reid]

You are supposed to use a rotary hoe for digging Birdy. ;) Must be wet sand that does that too them ...Ken, lucky that hammer fell off when it did cause imagine what it might have sounded like on climb out at full noise !!! :D

[rehler]

Ken,

I was just thinking about you when I read about some idiot in California who left a hammer on top his engine and ... oh, that was you! Never mind.

[KenSandyEggo]

No it wasn't me. I left mine on top of my radiator, "Propeller-Man."