Question; possibly a dumb one...

[Desert Flyer]

I was wondering to myself the other day about two things. First, would it be possible to modify an Affordaplane fuselage to be a tractor gyroplane by adding a mast? Here is the website address to see what an Affordaplane looks like:

www.affordaplane.com


My second question is: How difficult would this modification be? By that I mean, besides making sure the mast was in the correct position for the aircraft to be balanced correctly - how could one be sure that the mast could be attached securely enough or that the fuselage would be able to withstand the various forces exerted on it by the mast?

Like I said, these are probably dumb questions, but I certainly don't know anyone personally that is educated enought to discuss these thoughts with. So I posted them here...

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[pappyadkins]

Good evening Mr. Barker,

First of all, I've got these plans... Great Homebuilt Fixed Wing concept in my eyes... I too thought about the idea of this mod!

The main problem you'd have (in my opinion) is the size & shape of the tail! Especially the V.S.

As far as you second question... especially the later part of it..."how could one be sure that the mast could be attached securely enough or that the fuselage would be able to withstand the various forces exerted on it by the mast?":rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I just gotta smile... (And by the way - There is NO dumb questions!) Anyway, I love the way your thinking... probably because it's the same as me!

Back to you question... I do believe it wouldn't be worth the effort... I laid it to rest... BUT - I have been working on a tractor design that is as simple if not more so & hopefully will have it flying SOON.... Keep in touch & I'll let you know as soon as I can...

And again there are NO dumb questions.... right guys?

I try to watch these boards... BUT find it hard to make time & remember... As I've stated in some other columns.. If you or anyone wants to take Gyros... Please feel free to Email me pappy@adcoaviation.com...

david

[Desert Flyer]

Thank you for offering your thoughts. Judging from the number of replies this is not an area of great interest to most who post here.

I've been thinking a lot about what options I have for a tractor gyro. I have of course considered the Pitbull. But one problem I have is my size. Several people have told me that I could not fit in a Pitbull. I have scheduled a visit with a flight instructor who owns a Pitbull gyro in February to determine once and for all if I can indeed fit inside. If it turns out that I cannot, then I don't seem to have any options left, since building a LittleWing is beyond both my abilities and finances.

Since I have never been able to get comfortable with the idea of a pusher gyro, that only leaves a fixed wing machine as a realistic option. I like the looks of the Affordaplane, and it seems I could fit in one easily. I also like the idea that there is no welding involved, since I am an awful welder. So that may turn out to be my only option. I will know after February.

Thanks again for your input...

[rtfm]

G'day mate,
The main problem with attaching a mast to something like the Affordaplane is that it is always tricky to mess with something which is already a balanced, safe design. But hey - it can be done - check out the Littlewing, which started off life as a fixed wing fuselage. You would need to do your homework, and getting a set of plans for the Affordaplane would be a good place to start. This will give you an insider's view of how it all fits together, the size, strength and positioning of the existing frame and so on.

One of the problems with "converting" a FW aircraft to a gyro is the fact that the rotor head has to be (more or less) on the aircraft's CG, which puts it on top of the cockpit somewhere, not behind the cockpit in a design like the RTFM. This means you have to resort to the mounting technique used by Ron Herron in his Littlewing (which also started out olife as a FW conversion). So perhaps a set of Littlewing plans would also be a good idea to see exactly how he did it.

As you can see, converting a fixed wing is far from simple, and without having spend a great deal of time thinking it through, it does seem less than optimal the more one considers it.

Cheers,
Duncan

[Desert Flyer]

Thank you for your input. I have ordered a set of plans for the Affordaplane. I look forward to reviewing them. Myself having no formal engineering education beyond some entry-level college courses, there is no way I would have the courage to try to design a fixed-wing to rotor conversion. Unless I could get a politician to finance the venture and test fly it themself. Party affiliation is irrelevent; any politician would do.

As for now, my plans for personal flight are in a "holding pattern" (no pun intended) until after the the first week of February when I get to see a Pitbull in person. If I can realistically operate the controls, then I will likely get one for myself.

It's not that long to wait. Thanks again for your thoughts...

[skyguynca]

I would never use the Affordaplane design for a gyro. I built one about 4 or 5 years ago, and flew it about 50 hrs. I was not impressed at all with the flimsy nature of the fuselage design in flight. I am always buzzing around in my Quicksilver sport that is a true ultralight and while it looks flimsy it is a nice sturdy airplane and a blast. My affordaplane was very dissapointing to say the least. Best leave that one alone.

[Doug Riley]

If you want to do design work, you should get some of EAA's books on the subject. If you don't want to do the homework and just want a cookbook method, stick to a design prepared by someone who knows his onions (as one of my British clients says).

Ron Herron's Little Wing is not a modified FW plane; he designed it from the ground up as a tractor gyro. Ron studied the topic in great depth and the results show.

[den]

gyromaxwell has been working on this, go to this site or search affordaplane

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=561&highlight=affordaplane

Dennis

[Desert Flyer]

I would never use the Affordaplane design for a gyro. I built one about 4 or 5 years ago, and flew it about 50 hrs. I was not impressed at all with the flimsy nature of the fuselage design in flight. I am always buzzing around in my Quicksilver sport that is a true ultralight and while it looks flimsy it is a nice sturdy airplane and a blast. My affordaplane was very dissapointing to say the least. Best leave that one alone.

Thanks much for the feedback. What did you do with your affordaplane? What type of engine did you install in it? Would you truly advise me to not pursue it as a fixed wing ultralight even it if were going to be my first?

[doug young]

hi
i have a friend who took a bensen and turned the motor around and added a second mast and made a tractor ...
he can be reached at stolo@sbcglobal.net for pics and info about high lift blades
duggy

[mabik]

I've thought about a similar plan using the Legal Eagle FW as the starting point. I have the same questions but no answers. If I were to get serious about the project, I'd seek out some good aircraft design books.
How big are you? I'd be interested in your thoughts on the Pitbull. Where is that instructor with a Pitbull?
-doc matt

[karlbamforth]

I love gyro's too and fully believe in the "A gyro to be the Dakota of the future" (or words to that effect) comment, but like you I think tractor is the safest way to go.
Converting a current FW design will be difficult and probably best to leave it to the experts. It has been done before though, look at all the black and white pics of early gyro's I'm willing to bet a lot were conversions of FW types.

[rgraffeo]

Hal,
Here is a picture of a project from one of my friends. I think its a Smiths Miniplane with a J2 rotor system.

[Doug Riley]

The 1930's gyros were not conversions of FW planes, except perhaps Cierva's original experiment in the early 20's. The Cierva and Pitcairn companies had a decent amount of capital (for those days) and a team of real engineers building machines from the ground up.

[GyroRon]

Talk to Ron Herron, his machines are designed to be gyros from the nose to the tail, but you can convert most any of the small steel tube framed little airplanes

[Brent_Brown]

I hope Ron H.can tell us some day how he did this. It looked like he took a fixed wing PUP and converted it. I know his Piper was convert and flown before the L3 came to be. So if he did to the Piper then it is doable with other planes.

[gyromike]

I hope Ron H.can tell us some day how he did this. It looked like he took a fixed wing PUP and converted it. I know his Piper was convert and flown before the L3 came to be. So if he did to the Piper then it is doable with other planes.

Here's some Little Wing history on his website:

http://www.littlewingautogyro.com/history.html

[Brent_Brown]

Right from Rons' web site.

"The first of these prototypes was the LW-1. I built it from a wrecked Piper airplane fuselage."

I think you can use an old Kitfox or Avid and do the same. a lot I read about the tail wheel tractor gyros make me want to make it a tri gear with the tail wheel just we do now. This will make transition to the tractor gyro less of a big deal. and keep the blades safe on the ground.

I will trade my pegleg gyro for a no wing or motor old kitfox, avid Jr. ace or like kit plane. and we will see a side by side tractor gyro.

[skyguynca]

Thanks much for the feedback. What did you do with your affordaplane? What type of engine did you install in it? Would you truly advise me to not pursue it as a fixed wing ultralight even it if were going to be my first?

I had a 503 for the engine. The Affordaplane just was not a good airplane in my opinion. I have flown a Weedhopper years ago and still today I would think it a much better plane than the affordaplane. For the price of building a Affordaplane you can buy a flying Quicksilver and it is (in my opinion, I fly one all the time) a much better ultralight.