View Full Version : June Accident
11-10-2005, 09:02 AM
Does anybody know who this person was? I'm just curious why a guy would try to fly without training.
11-10-2005, 09:52 AM
After reading it. It sounds like he tilted the rotor back and it struck the prop. Is that what you guys come up with?
11-10-2005, 10:56 AM
I reported to the Forum about this accident in an earlier thread.
I talked to the FAA after this accident and went with the State Transportation Department rep to view the wreckage in a dumpster. I can corroroborate the specific mechanical facts in the FAA report. The scratches on the underside of the rotor hub were made by the prerotator Bendix unit, which normally clears the hub without difficulty. In a PPO, however, the retreating rotor blade stalls and the rotor flips violently to the left and back. This causes the rotor to contact parts of the craft that normally clear.
This crash was pretty clearly a PPO by a novice gyro pilot (who was an experienced FW pilot with some aerobatic experience). The machine he was flying was a lowrider Air Command 532 with inverted engine, pod and under-seat tanks -- IOW, a PPO nightmare. Both the buyer and the seller knew about the Air Command CLT conversion kits. The buyer elected to put off installing one until later.
The ship had the factory HS on the original short tail tube. However, this HS is insufficient to prevent PPO with the amount of thrust and thrustline offset in this model of machine.
This accident occurred at a flyin. Roger (the new pilot) had progressed to flying rather aggressively, friends who were there tell me.
Roger had called me about lessons but we didn't set anything up. To be honest, I would have refused to take him as a student unless/until he converted the ship to current configuration. It's not possible to train someone properly to fly an unstable machine by using a stable trainer such as a Dominator.
11-10-2005, 11:08 AM
Why do they try to fly without instruction? If you can tell me that and change this thinking, you have helped. I think it is an attitude of "this is just like a go kart, it's simple, and I can fly this thing easy. It goes slow, how can it actually hurt me". It's the not knowing that it isn't easy, it isn't a go kart, and yes, it can kill you in a heartbeat. It can do things in the sky that no other aircraft can. It requires unique skills and they must be experienced before you can comprehend how dangerous they can be if you don't know them. If I could afford it, I would take each one of these guys/gals up for one flight just to show them what they are up against. It's almost like taking the keys away from a drunk friend. You are not a friend unless you stop them, keys or not. If you see someone trying to fly a gyro with no instruction, do your best to stop them. If you can't, get an ambulance to stand by.!!!
Not enough info to even comment about the accident.
11-10-2005, 01:23 PM
In some area particularly prone to hurricane damage, law enforcement authorities have an interesting tactic for those who refuse to evacuate. Instead of going door-to-door attempting to force the residents to relocate to safer areas, they go door-to-door taking names and contact info for next-of-kin.
Perhaps we could borrow the technique.
11-10-2005, 03:31 PM
I am not surprised when newbies, with no other aeronautical experience crash and kill themselves in a gyro within the first several hours of flying. I could never understand how a pilot with formal (fixed wing)training would hop in a gyro and try to fly it without gyro training. Going back 30 years in the NTSB website, there has to be 10 examples of ATP pilots doing just that. All these guys do is training all the time. In many of the fatals, most of them had exceeding 5,000 hours PIC. The airlines don't let them touch a new switch without having training on it. I just don't get why a certificated pilot would look at a gyro and think they can fly off into the sunset without training. The whole flying lawnchair thing with so few simple parts must paly a role in it. I don't think that further restrictions of pilots are appropriate, but it does make one question the rule allowing a pilot to fly any type of experimental aircraft without any kind of training whatsoever. In the case at hand, it would not have mattered, as the gyro was not even registered. It is just the mindset that it is ok to even attempt it in the first place.
Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
11-11-2005, 10:26 AM
Now that good powered dual instruction is available, I'm the last one to advocate self-teaching. However, this accident also illustrates the extra danger that goes with HTL and inadequate HS.
A number of sudents who've completed dual training have STILL been killed in PPO-prone gyros. All such gyros need to be converted to a safe configuration or tossed into a dumpster, as this one (belatedly) was.
If it weren't for the design flaws in this craft, Roger would probably still be around and still entertaining us with his music at flyins, as he did many times. He was a skillful FW pilot who simply wasn't adequately equipped to deal with a serious widowmaker gyro.
11-11-2005, 02:50 PM
As I contiune to study, ask question, and come to understand all I can about gyros I have noticed one thing,there will always be those who have years of experience flying with no plan to be TAUGHT to fly again. Once a pilot, aways a pilot is the problem.
In various group settings I have heard the John Wayne egos that they can fly anyting and this is where a mature adult come into play by getting lesson instaed of climbing into anything that flys and die.
Im having a real hard time with freinds and family getting them to even listen to the positive side of gyros because of the negitive. The first thing my wife did was double my Death insurance. I guess she thinks that since the cooking did'nt do it the flying will.
One thought from someone who will never fly looking over my shoulder was if there was a flight simulator for gyros and it could in some way be mandated to at least sit for a given time slot, to fly a gyro, it would start to take the black eye from this sport when something goes wrong and there has been no proof of simulater time. Most bad press is on the aircraft not the experience of the pilot.
11-12-2005, 06:42 AM
Here are some detail photos of Roger's crash. I've circled what I believe is a prop strike mark on one rotor blade. I can't verify this, as the blades had been chopped up with a hacksaw, and some bits lost, by the time I saw them.
11-12-2005, 11:58 AM
One more, showing scratches on the hub from the Bendix. This is consistent with uncontrolled flapping brought on by PPO.
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