Landing in a High Speed crosswind

[scott heger]

I am looking for the explaination why a gyro will tip over in a crosswind once the wheels touch the ground, even though the landing was perfectly flat.

I was dumb enough many years ago to try a landing in a 40 mph 90 degree crosswind. The landing was smooth and perfect until the wheels touched. The stick was already off to the side to compensate for the crosswind and the landing was level. As soon as the wheels touched and the blades started to unload, the gyro started tipping over(downwind)sideways. I immediately went back to full power, made a slight turn towards the wind and took off, releveling out the aircraft when the wheels left the ground. Another one or two seconds of doing nothing would have resulted in a tipover.

I watched this happen to another gyro pilot not so long ago who had lots of experience and landed into a 30MPH quartering headwind and resulted in a tip over.

The importance of landing directly into high wind conditions in a gyro is obvious. Knowing how to do moderate wind crosswind landings is important also for the more experienced pilots. My question is: when the blades lose the weight of flying upon a level touchdown; why the gyro is more likely to go over sideways without a change in stick input. I understand it needs to be done , I just don't get the aerodynamics of it.


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[Jazzenjohn]

Great question! What would you do now, after having been through something like that, if you came back to the airport and found those same conditions? Would you land into the wind on a cross taxiway? diagonally on the runway? or something else?

Also, seeing that your reaction was successful, would you think preparing for a go-around is the best solution in a landing like that?

I encounter those situations, although with much less wind, fairly often. My gyro has a strong tendancy to weathervane into the wind at touchdown due, I suppose, to it's large tail. Straightening out the nosewheel/rudder after landing presents even more tail area into the wind after landing making the situation a bit worse. I myself try to land diagonally If I think it's not too bad, but I might try landing on a cross taxi if I felt that wasn't safe enough. I've gone around without landing once when it felt too squirrelly and landed on the next try.

That is what I understood to be reasonable solutions from my instructor Terry Eisland and assuming I understood properly what he said. Jump in if I'm wrong.

I haven't been preparing for a late go-around but I wonder if It might be a good idea for me to do that as well.

[ventana7]

On my recent trip around the US there were a number of times when I had severe cross wind landings and I was always at unfamiliar airports.

I found that if the wind was over 15 knots and near 90 degrees cross wind component I would do whatever I could to find some pavement or smooth grass facing into the wind. At minimum landing diagonally across a runway helps.

In these situations familiarity with your machine makes a big difference in being able to spot land on a small open bit of ramp facing into the wind.

In that situation you are actually better off with 25 knots or more so you can just aim for a clear spot on the ramp and while pointing into the wind just keep reducing power until you touch down.-- These were by far my smoothest landings as you can barely tell the moment you touch down.

At towered airports where I had less flexibility in just landing anywhere I would use the normal runway in moderate cross wind landings. At these times I found myself landing with a bit of extra speed as this seemed to help flow over the tail giving me more control.

Rob

[ventana7]

Another reason for landing a bit faster in cross winds is that if it is windy AND gusty you need the extra speed to avoid getting a lull just when you are 5 feet up and suddenly finding yourself with not enough airspeed.

In fixed wings the standard rule is add 1/2 the gust factor to your landing speed but in gyros I add a bit more and maintain almost to the ground.
Rob

[scott heger]

Today, facing the same situation(40 mph crosswind), I would land sideways on the runway or taxiway. If I was at a towered airport, I would tell them where I want to land, and then do it barring being refused.I have asked for unusual landing locations off runways, and have yet to be denied. It is not the controllers job to deny the PIC his safe landing spot within reason. The original situation that got me in trouble was not enough experience for the conditions involved, read ...over my head(almost litterly). Now I know that I can do it in a emergency, but see no reason to ever try it again. It is just too much work and risk, when safer options are available. For those that have not flown in 40 mph winds, blade magagment is very important. It is hard to get them spun up and stopped without encountering a little blade flap along the way. Just never turn sideways(or move at all) into high winds once you land without waiting at least 15 seconds for the blades to slow way down. Gyros tip very easily under these conditions. You have to be asking yourself before taking off if you think you are up to handling these conditions when landing. You will be performing a power-on zero roll (vertical if desired)landing; if it is gusty also, it will not be fun for most.

I have landed a helicopter in 60MPH winds, and it is not much different at that point than a gyro. The helicopter wants to float with little or no power. It is very easy to chop off the tail with the blades while they are slowing down if your are not extremely careful. Rotorbrakes really help in reducing this risk(same with gyros).



Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[Caribean_gyro]

I have flown with 25 plus wind. I fly the machine down to the runway stick to the wind , nose up and a bit to the wind. . Wind side wheel first , nose up stright in to the runway stick to the wind. Then slowly let the oposite wheel touch. AT the time of the touch roll is none and stick still to the wind.,

then nose down and slowly stcik to neutral and foward. AFter taht run to the hangar change underware and drink Brandy.

ChuckP

[GyroRon]

So Scott... is this what happened to Mad Mike at El Mirage? Hear he crashed his gyro and no info on the crash has come forwards.

[scott heger]

Ron, read between the lines. It is up to him to say if he wishes, but I think you may be able to figure it out from this post thread.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[a1frankie]

I didn't see any one else say this, so correct me if I am mistaken please. The reason it will tip is because you don't have enough control movement or authority to counter act the wind or gust speed. In the air it will slide sideways, with the tires on the ground you can't tilt the rotor far enough to keep it from blowing over.

[Icare]

When you think Gyro, you must think helicopter.
Blades attack the wind; they take a bite from it, release them flat and you loose the grip.
You just become a three wheeler speeding on an open field….

But I will find you a much better answer from a retired helicopter test pilot very soon

[Robert G. Stark]

Land across the runway into the wind. Slow or stop your rotor, then taxi in to the ramp..

[scott heger]

a1frankie, what you say makes a certain amount of sense. However in my case I had plenty of side stick left to add if needed. I was perfectly lined up with the centerline and level upon touchdown. I was still rolling slightly forward and immediately started tipping over sideways. I will never know if I had enough side stick to counteract the rollover.

The answer may be just as simple as when the weight of the gyro was removed from the blades they just gained much more authority not having to produce upward lift(and the addition of a pivot point, the downwind tire...a dynamic rollover to you helicopter guys) to cause a upset of the machine.

This is one point of the flight curve I will avoid in the future....been there....done that....and don't need to go back.



Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[mceagle]

When you are approaching to land in a strong cross wind you are effectively side-slipping into the wind. The wind is blowing you the other way so you actually track straight along the runway. You are flying with the stick into wind and with opposite rudder. This leaves the fuselarge cocked on an angle to the horizon, so it will touch down one wheel first (into-wind wheel). This next step is where a lot of inexperienced pilots come unstuck. They assume that the landing is over when a wheel touches the ground (the landing is not over until the engine is stoped and the rotors are tied).
Back to the cross wind. If the gyro is not drifting sideways, the pilot has the right amount of side stick in. As the one wheel touches, the other wheel starts to settle down, which changes the angle of the mast and head. This in turn tilts the rotor away form the wind unless the pilot makes an instant and positive effort to add more side stick into wind.

[bones]

Thanks Tim very well explained.

[birdy]

I am looking for the explaination why ............

Buggered if i know, theres alota things that will tip a gyro over when landed in a strong xwind, if the pilot int on the ball.
If it's tip'n over, the wind is get'n under the disc, so stick into the wind more AND push full forward . Wind, no matter wot its strenght, can't tip a gyro over if it can't get under the disc.

[Gary_in_Orygun]

When suggesting to people to land across the runway, into the wind...please always include a statement about "but consider what you will do if you encounter a balloon-up or need to go-around."

I got bit by this. I was landing across a narrow runway into the 10 knt gusty wind and encountered a balloon-up. I did not apply full throttle as I should have because I was pointing out into a field I was not prepared to fly over. (ditch, fence, trees...). I got slow and another gust finished the job of tipping me over.

The next time I encountered a 14knt crosswind I landed fast with the stick into the wind and the rudder opposite the wind to keep heading straight down the runway.

I won't be landing across a runway again unless it would be safe to go to full power if I need to.

[ventana7]

Gary, Birdy, Tim, all really good points to think about.

I think the hardest area is the cross wind from about 12-20 knots. Below 12 knots a regular landing is not too bad with normal corrections and above 20 knots it is really easy to spot land by just continually reducing power so even if you are in a no go around situation you should be able to put it down OK-even across a runway sideways.

But in gusty conditions between 12-20 knots you have to have your act together.

Rob

[scott heger]

Gary, my only suggestion to you would be to forget a narrow runway above a 15 mph crosswind. Use a taxiway (or runup area)that points into the wind. The need to make a go around sometimes causes more problems in gusty winds than they help IMHO; if your down to 2 feet from the ground you should probably try to complete the landing if level. I have had to make one go around in 1500+ landings, and it is the one mentioned in the top of this thread. I always have several backup options, but never need to use them. You will not get into any kind of trouble using a taxiway for landing because of safety. Keep all your options open, and have a backup plan. I believe in the future you will look back on the tipover you had, and realize you had many other options that you did not use.

For routine landings, I normally land on a concrete helipad. Last weekend the winds were very gusty at around 20MPH, causing a ballon-up at the end. Just landed about 30 feet farther in the grass, much easier than setting up to go around with poor wind conditions. Didn't look as cool as hitting the pad, but the chance of getting balloned twice within a few seconds is almopst nil, so i completed the landing. With 30-40mph winds, you should not miss a landing spot by more than 3 feet. You are flying the gyro under power into the ground, and can land vertically if desired.


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[Caribean_gyro]

tim basically what I do. but after that you missed the Brandy. I should emphasis you shall not be flying in this condition. AS part of the preflight we shall know the weather before T/O.

ChuckP

[Aussie_Paul]

.......is because there is a strong wind blowing we think we will land with zero ground roll. A 90 degree cross wind give no headwind advantage and so you have the g/s of a nil wind landing with the strong cross wind trying to push you sideways. :eek: We have to be much more vigilante to keep the stick and rudder in exactly the right place so as to have no sideways movement and no yaw. The gyro should be pointing and tracking exactly along the white line or our equivilant reference point.

I think this makes sense.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Brent Drake]

I just watched a RAF2000 come down perfect then roll because of a crosswind. From my view and discussion. It's has a lot to do with the gyro type.
Alot of gyro's have the rudder steering conected to the nosewheel. when the RAF came down he had the right rudder pedel pushed hard to counteract the crosswind and keep the gyro straight. Then when the nose wheel touched the runway which was turned far right because of the rudder, the RAF tried to make a hard right turn and rolled because of speed. If you have sperate steerting for your nose wheel. Then its spring return to center probably. So if you land in a hard crosswind, as long as you keep the gyro straight with the runway, when you touch down you will remain straight.
Brent

[jdalexa]

All of this should not be a mystery to the taildragger pilots out there. In a stiff cross wind, you land flatter and with power and land on the upwind main gear. Then you smoothly feed in more stick into the wind until it stops flying and the other gear comes down by itself and the stick stays into the wind. This occurs more rapidly with a gyro, but in my limited experience it's the same technique.

The problem is made a bit more difficult with a nose wheel craft where the nose wheel is hard linked to the pedals. Excellent case for castoring, trailing link nose gear. Otherwise, you just gotta be quick on the toes and get the pedals centered before the nose comes down.

On a calm day, one can work on this technique by flying down the runway and rolling on the left wheel and then the right and back and forth. Lots of cross controlling happening. My taildragger instructor made me do this on a 11,000 ft runway. 1/4 mile on one wheel kept on the centerline and then over to the other. It's work and you will get good with power and blade management.

Great gobs... 40 kts??? Heh.. I don't bother above 15. It's just not fun any more.

[scott heger]

The direct steering/linked front wheel is a significant issue that I have not thought about because my Sportcopter has a castering front wheel. As a side note, they were originally designed into the Vortex model because Jim V's wife balled a gyro up on a crosswind/sideways landing, and he decided to save his future customers from this if possible. It is a very forgiving system, that probably saved me on the above mentioned near tip over while still rolling.

But back to the original question of a tipover once stopped on the ground in a strong crosswind. I still think it has to do with the fact that the blades are (airframe weight)unloaded making them more powerful, remain at flying RRPM speed and have extra energy that is transferred from the wind still getting under the blades from the tilted back gyro heads we all fly on. Add a (downwind wheel)pivot point...and get ready to buy lots of new parts in several seconds. Moral of the story, keep the wind head-on and avoid higher speed crosswind landings. Come on you aerodynamic experts.....


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[birdy]

I wouldn't make an experts ear, but i'v landed the ferel and the RAF often in strong xwinds on roads.[ and 'roads' mean a two wheel track, usualy with timber within a couple o feet from each side of the disc]
Obviosly theres no room for stuffups.
The most common thing that'll roll a gyro over in a xwind landing is ground roll. If you spot it, it won't fall over wether your streight, crabbing or wot ever.
The second thing is not controling the disc, which i explained before, if the wind can't get under the disc, it won't fall over.
It ain't rocket science.

I know the RAF rudder is a small, ineffective pice o sh1t, but its no excuse to roll your machine.

[Harry_S.]

You're right on there, Birdy. Practice all landings to be on a spot...no wheel roll.


Cheers :)

[WHY]

Scott

The simplest way that I could explain it is that although the gyro has stopped flying, for a few seconds the rotor blades remain at or near flying speed and are still ready to give some serious lift if any wind gets under them.

Tony

[a1frankie]

In other words, always dump the lift in the direction of the wind?

[Chopper Reid]

Anyone who hasnt worked it out by now, go back and read mceagle's post on page 1 where he explained it all very well. As the inside wheel touches down, the stick has to move further into the wind before the outside wheel touches and as the nosewheel is about to make contact with the strip, center the rudder. By then the stick should be hard into the wind and all is well. The rudder has to be straightened to keep the gyro tracking straight if there is any landing roll.

It concerns me that this part of basic instruction isnt being taught . As Birdy says, "It aint rocket science " !!!!!

[scott heger]

Brian, of course CFI"s are teaching "basic" crosswind landing techniques. Nor is landing in a normal crosswind "rocket science", agreed. Mc Birdy gave a very good description on how to do a proper crosswind landing. Landing in higher speed crosswinds is not something most gyro pilots do on a regular basis, or at all. Nor are you going to get your CFI to let you try one in his machine in a 40 mph crosswind. After having just watched a gyro go over last month into a quartering 30 mph steady wind, it got me thinking more about this. Obviously there had to be some side movement to cause this and lack of proper stick timing. Other posts have contribued some other factors as well. There may be other reasons at play that I am missing, and wanted others feedback. By looking at the high number of hits on this post/subject, it must have interest to many others also.


My point is that if you are willing to fly in high winds, you better to be able to do every kind of landing necessary in those winds. Flying in high winds in a stable gyro is really albout the most fun in aviation. The ability to hover for as long as you like,, fly backwards, and do zero roll takeoffs and landings in any winds short of a hurricane sets gyros apart from all other light aircraft; most of which are grounded in even the lightest of winds.

I started this post to make everyone think a little bit about what to do in those windy conditions, if you choose to fly in them. Gyro tip-overs continue to happen, and by sharing our experiences, maybe a few can be prevented... even among the non-rocket scientist among us.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, SportCopter N86SH

[mceagle]

I started this post to make everyone think a little bit about what to do in those windy conditions, if you choose to fly in them. G'day Scott. I am sorry I mis-read your post. I explained why it happens, not what to do.
In fact you never land with a 30mph plus crosswind if you have been taught correctly.

[scott heger]

Tim, very true, and I bet you never fly over trees,mountains water, congested areas, or land on small roads or airports that don't line up with the wind direction at the time your flying either......you guys must have got it made down under. Unfortunately "up North" we don't have it so well. And for your information, I was properly trained to land in high crosswinds in our not so perfect conditions here instead of just being told you never can do it, and moving on. This specialized training has served me well on several occasions when options were limited. I thought I made it perfectly clear from my first several post that a high speed crosswind landing was right at the bottom of the list of good choices to make normally, but it is still a option.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[OzyRuss]

Then when you get down.......stoppin them blades ina howla can be fun too....

[birdy]

My question is: when the blades lose the weight of flying upon a level touchdown; why the gyro is more likely to go over sideways without a change in stick input. I understand it needs to be done , I just don't get the aerodynamics of it.

Gees, sum of you yanks can get touchy.
Don't know wots bugg'n you Scott but i recon your question's been answered more than once on this thread
You asked ;why the gyro is more likely to go over sideways without a change in stick input.
If the stick is left in the 'flare' position the wind can still get under it.

If a machine tips over on touch down, its either coz the disc wasn't flattened or the roll was outa control,................. or a wheel fell off.

I understand it needs to be done
Wot exactly is it you understand??
After readn this thread, ' wot needs to be done' has been explained, and i don't know wot it is your ask'n.

I bet you never fly over trees,mountains water, ..........
you mite want to hold that bet Scott, he wasn't born yesterday.

Tim said In fact you never land with a 30mph
He didn't say ' being told you never can do it,
Theres a big difference.

[scott heger]

Hi Birdy, don't get your tail feathers all twisted up, just having some fun. I assume Tim has been in a gyro long enough to have seen lots of bad weather flying, and yet he is still around to chat about it. You guys apparently get to do alot of open country flying down under. I however fly in one of the most congested areas in the United States. It would be like you doing all your gyro flying over Sydney(do they allow that by the way?). My best choice for a engine out landing may be on the flat roof of a industrial building, or into a parking lot with light poles and cars all over the place. The margain of error is very small, and I take that part of my practice very seriously. I may not have the advantage of a straight into the wind emergency landing in open country that most gyro pilots enjoy.

Tim's statement that I challenged was: "In fact you never land with a 30mph plus crosswind if you have been taught correctly."


Oh course this would not normally be the first choice for landing. Tim and you have no idea what kind of training I had, or the instruction I received. It did in fact include landing in 20-25 mph crosswinds, and I believe it made me a better pilot for the training and experience. Better to have been trained how to do it correctly then just be told never to do it, and have to try it the first time in a emergency. That's the easy way out of good training. Any time you put the word "Never land" into a statement, you are likely to get challanged on it. Fair enough? Like I said before , if you decide to fly in higher winds, damn well better be prepared to land crosswind, down wind or vertical upwind. To do these things well, it has to be practiced every now and then under controlled conditions.

I did understand all the explainations made, and was just seeing if I was missing anything else. This thread was started with safety in mind, and hopefully making other pilots consider the options available when put into a less than perfect landing situation. With over 1,000 hits on this post, some pilots must be interested. Don't try to read anything negative into it , ok?


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[birdy]

Jobs cool Scott, it just sounded like you were try'n to take the p1ss outa us Ozzys again. :D

There is how ever, sumthn that hasn' been mentioned yet, I was hope'n sumone else would bring it up who could explain it better. See'n as no one did I'll do me best to explain sumthn that could catch a newby by supprise.

It's cuased by the weight/stored inertia of heavy blades at the moment of contact with the ground. The instant and compleat unloading of the disc has it loaded with inertia ,but with very little airodynamic responce to any inputs compared to when it's in the 'flying state'.
If the disc left in this position [full back stick], the worst that will happen is the disc will cause the machine to creep backwards if no power is applied to stop it.
In a strong wind from any direction tho, the disc must be leveled to prevent the wind from getting under it and rolling the machine, BUT, with heavy blades it should be done slowly but surely, because there will be some gyroscopic effect one the machine fed back from the blades coz there isn't enough airdynamic responce from the blades in the 'no wind' situation to counter it.
[hope this is make'n sence.]
If the stick is pushed forward too fast and the pilot isn't savvy to wots go'n on, the disc will not want level, but will try to lean down one side if the pilot dosn't correct it, and if the xwind is cumn from the high side, then maybe, it could be enough to roll a machine.

Lighter blades don't have anyway near as much gyroscopic feed back coz for their less inertia, they have the same amount of flying surface, so the airodynamic effect overrides the inertia.

Just shoot me if i'm dribb'n sh1t again. :p

[mceagle]

G'day Scott. I wasn't having a go at you, just making a statement that I still stick by in my opinion. I still cannot see any condition that would force you to land in a 30 mph crosswind. Perhaps your congested area flying brings up other possibilities that I am not aware of.
As an instructor, I always taught students to turn into wind, even if they had to do it at the last second after a crosswind approach. The odds of staying upright were far greater than attempting to go through with the strong cross wind landing. Very few gyroplanes, and even less average experience pilots could handle a genuine 30 mph crosswind landing.

[ben]

tim g'day

can you explain how you teach your student to do that last minute move on a hard cross wind ???? thanks

[Aussie_Paul]

Jobs cool Scott, it just sounded like you were try'n to take the p1ss outa us Ozzys again. :D

There is how ever, sumthn that hasn' been mentioned yet, I was hope'n sumone else would bring it up who could explain it better. See'n as no one did I'll do me best to explain sumthn that could catch a newby by supprise.

It's cuased by the weight/stored inertia of heavy blades at the moment of contact with the ground. The instant and compleat unloading of the disc has it loaded with inertia ,but with very little airodynamic responce to any inputs compared to when it's in the 'flying state'.
If the disc left in this position [full back stick], the worst that will happen is the disc will cause the machine to creep backwards if no power is applied to stop it.
In a strong wind from any direction tho, the disc must be leveled to prevent the wind from getting under it and rolling the machine, BUT, with heavy blades it should be done slowly but surely, because there will be some gyroscopic effect one the machine fed back from the blades coz there isn't enough airdynamic responce from the blades in the 'no wind' situation to counter it.
[hope this is make'n sence.]
If the stick is pushed forward too fast and the pilot isn't savvy to wots go'n on, the disc will not want level, but will try to lean down one side if the pilot dosn't correct it, and if the xwind is cumn from the high side, then maybe, it could be enough to roll a machine.

Lighter blades don't have anyway near as much gyroscopic feed back coz for their less inertia, they have the same amount of flying surface, so the airodynamic effect overrides the inertia.

Just shoot me if i'm dribb'n sh1t again. :p


...this was discussed a couple of years ago. The universal joint of the gimbal head stops gyroscopic precession from affecting the airframe. This was, I think, according to Chuck B, and others. Maybe a search could find it.

Chuck, if I have remembered it wrong please straighten me out.

Aussie Paul. :)

[mceagle]

G'day Ben. Its simply a coordinated turn into wind just before touchdown. The gyro will already be at approx 45 degrees to the wind so another 45 degrees is not much extra. Power has to be increased as required approaching touchdown to stop the gyro from moving backwards relative to the ground. Once the gyro touches down, the stick is eased forward and the power is bled off just enough to keep the gyro stationary. Keep rotors horizontal and remain in the seat until rotors have wound down enough to stop.

[OzyRuss]

If you get it wrong........pull out your check book

Get an instructor with a 2 place first [ could save you heaps ]

Then again........better to be down here, wishing you was up there........rather than up there, wishing you was down there.... :)

[Chopper Reid]

Hi guys, yesterday I had the chance to do a voluntary high speed cross wind landing [airspeed indicator showing 20 knots with the wind directly cross my bow so wind was approximately 30 knots] so in the interest of techniques I decided to give it a go. Had no problems but found I didnt apply full stick into wind straight away.
A look at the marks on the ground indicated a landing roll of some 5 feet[sorry Birdy], inside wheel touched down first quickly followed by the other wheel . At no time did the gyro feel like it might be likely to roll despite being buffeted by the wind.

Scott, I fully understand the limited choices you have in an emergency landing but out here while we havent got your problems of high rise buildings and big cities, we do have obstacles that need to be cleared too if a successful forced landing is to be achieved successfully. I think we are all in the same boat there no matter where we are in the world!!!

I wouldnt recommend anyone trying a landing in a high speed cross wind without a lot of practice in light cross winds and good instruction and if the approach doesnt feel right, go and find a strip that is into the wind. Somewhere, there will be one !!

[Mike Schallmann]

Everybody likes to speculate -but unless your there all of the Monday Morning Quarterbacking is all useless drivel.
Now for the good part -- I was doing touch and goes in a strong wind --these were actually hover type TO's and landings--on the final landing --immediately before touchdown -with virtually ZERO forward groundspeed -the wind shifted approx 30 degrees -this is what caused the problem--in this condition the gyro began a rather rapid drift--the left wheel dug in the dirt --I went to full power , kicked the rudder hard, and gave full opposite stick but it was to late-- when the wheel dug in the gyro lifted up enough for the wind to get under the blades and over she went---

On Edit: Im not totally inexperienced --Ive got about eight years and slightly over 400 hrs of gyro time and about 400 hrs of FW time over 20 or so years --

[Harry_S.]

That's a really tough break, Mike. Sounds like your person came out alright, anyway.

Seems like you were just a tad bit behind the machine and the wind. Most times, that little bit is all it takes. I've been there. :(

You'll be back...I'm sure?!


.

[rehler]

Tim, I agree. Such a turn into the wind is not at all difficult and touching down into the wind is easier to handle the gyro after landing. But ... it is best to have good experience as a gyro pilot to do this - not a pilot in training.

[birdy]

Everybody likes to speculate
I take it , with that comment, this thread is partly based on your experiance Mike.
Bit of stiff luck :( , but to say this thread is full of usless drivle is a bit steep.
Scott wanted to know wot will tip a machine over when landed in a stiff xwind, his question's been pretty well answered. To say wots writen here is only speculation and drivel is like saying theres nuthn of value.
I'm sure there are a couple o newbys who appreciate the info.
No one refered to wot tiped you over, only wot can tip a machine over.

On edit; for wot its worth, i'm not totaly inexperianced either, and i would never have hit full [ or any ] power to arrest a severe drift. :confused: [ but wot would i know, i wasn't there.] :rolleyes:

I tiped the ferel over in a howling xwind once. Can't blame the technique, the wind or the machine, only the pilot, even tho the tip over was caused by a broken J stick, i am still responsable for the laps in maintainance. ;)

[Jazzenjohn]

I appreciate this thread. I'm on midnights and usually fly after work which is early morning. It is usually pretty calm when I take off but sometimes when I get back the wind has kicked up and it's usually a cross so this stuff is important to me. I haven't tried the last minute turn technique. I've only done the cross taxiway landing with my instructor but I damn sure appreciate him showing it to me. If I find myself in a situation where I don't feel like I can safely land along the runway in a crosswind I very much like having a plan "B" and a plan "C" too.

[Vance]

One of my favorite moments in gyroplane training was landing across the runway when a gusty cross wind came up. We came in low over the desert, flaired after we cleared the brush by the side of the runway and stoped in half the width of the runway. I love the capibilities of gyroplanes. Thank you, Vance

[Chopper Reid]

Mike, that was certainly tough on you having a tip over but Harry put it pretty well [and this isnt having a cheap shot at you] when he said you were "a tad behind the machine".
You only need be a tad slow to react and damage can be done.

Reading your post Mike, it sounds to me that the gyro would have yawed first and thats where you needed to be quick on the rudder to counter the yaw, the nosewheel should have still been off the strip and you would have landed normally. In turbulent conditions, yaw can be present on both sides of the nose and thats where the yaw string is of top importance as it will show any yaw changes as they are happening and thats why I rate the yaw string as my most important instrument.

[Chopper Reid]

Coming back to the station a couple of days ago after a fairly big & long day pushing calves [weaner sized] up into the calf cradle and running around in soft sandy yards, coming into land, there was a 15 knot crosswind and I thought I had it reasonably right but had my mind on a cold drink or three and a cool shower. Landing felt okay but a look at the tyre marks on the dirt strip surprised me. I had done a running landing as turbulence is created by the station buildings on this strip and if you haven a reasonable amount of airspeed, you can experience quite a bit of windshear at this spot BUT I was amazed to see the outside wheel had touched first and it was probably 10 foot or so before the inside wheel had touched down. The wheel marks were straight as, so I had the yaw right but not the right amount of stick into the wind. Fortunately for me, there wasnt enough disc angle exposed to cause a roll over but it goes to show what tiredness, complancency and mind not on the job at hand can cause !!!

[PW_Plack]

Mike,

Having had this accident with a machine you designed and built from scratch, are there any changes you'd make building a new one? Was the vertical tail area enough to provide yaw stability with the pod sized as it was?

[birdy]

I think a point has been missed here. :(
If the wind is cumn from any angle forward of 90* left to 90* right and equal to or greater than your machines min AS before sink, there shouldn't be any ground roll.
No roll = no need to bother bout yaw or track.
A weaker wind than that and its hardly worth worrying about.

Maybe my point of veiw stems from hav'n never hav'n flown with a yaw indicater. :rolleyes:

[Jazzenjohn]

Birdy, how do you determine min. AS before sink? does rotorspeed affect it? If so, would a turn or dive before flare to pick up extra rotorspeed help enough to be worth it? What about throttle setting?

[birdy]

Firstly John, i don't like the idea of posting tips on flying for several reasons, but mainly coz sumone could missinterperet me and .................. . :mad:
But its easy to fugure min As with or without power, at safe alt.
Just be sure to add a couple o knots when close to the ground coz the air is generaly thinner at ground level and theres the wind gradiant thing too. ;)
would a turn or dive before flare ................
Yes.
What about throttle setting?
The sooner you master an idle spot landing from any alt in any conditions the better.
You'll find theres no need to touch the power, and at idle most rudders are ineffectual at min AS anyway, so theres no rudder input either.

BTW, I never watch the ASI when landing and never had a pice o string. :D

[scott heger]

Birdy,

"On edit; for wot its worth, i'm not totaly inexperianced either, and i would never have hit full [ or any ] power to arrest a severe drift. [ but wot would i know, i wasn't there.] "


You have lost me here. I think Mike S. did the exact right thing by going to full power once he realized he was drifting sideways. It did not prevent the tipover, because it was probably a little late, thats all. I used the same technique to clean up a little side drifton crosswinds before. What do you think the correct thing to do is when your are several feet off the ground, sinkinking and drifting sideways? Leaving the engine at idle to me seems like a certain rollover is going to happen. Using power to cause forward movement (and lift) instead of sideways movement seems like a no brainer to me. I agree that practicing most landings at idle makes for a better gyro pilots, but not when the wind is "howling". You just cut your recovery options list too short with a sudden wind change.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[Chopper Reid]

I agree with Birdy on not using full power to check a drift as the application of full throttle can cause a big change in he gyro's attitude which in turn can cause a big problem.
The drift should be able to be corrected using rudder and stick, even at idle.

Birdy, I thought everyone flew with a "bit of string". :)

[scott heger]

Brian, I still say if you think you are going to stop a side drift a few feet off the ground with a 30 MPH (cross)wind at idle, you are in for a big ugly surprise. Matter of fact, landing at idle with a high wind will result in going backwards more than likely. A correctly made stable gyro will not cause a attitude change upon application of throttle, at least mine doesn't. Engine power gives rudder authority that would not be otherwise available. I still say Mike S. did the right thing by applying throttle when he started drifting. He flys very well in the wind and his machine is stable from my observation of watching him. This landing just didnt go right and he realizes that. It is not going to take much side drift upon touching a downwind wheel to the ground in high winds to go over.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca SportCopter N86SH

[OzyRuss]

This reading how to do it, then havin a go by yourself, is frawt with danger.
Wanting to improve your skills.......YES. But get instructed how to do it, in a 2 seater first.

Years back, and I mean years back, there was no such thing as a 2 seated powered trainer. We were reading from the "Abbott" book, how to fly these things, and hopping into our pride and joy and havin a go.........guys, we were coming unstuck left rite and centre.........shyte, was we learning......you bet we was..........the bloody hard way.

Next thing I'll see here, is how to loop the bloody things.........now that'll make good reading, and someone will have a go........guaranteed

Scott........you are spot on, tails need air to work.......why negate a control mechanism by cutin off it's source of requirement that make it operable....even more so when the conditions at the minute are extreem, and you may be out of your comfort zone.

As I said before.......these flik around touchdowns, are absolutely achievable, but get it wrong.....then pull out your check book, coz it's guna hurt your bank account

So...........get TRAINED to improve your skills............cheaper

[birdy]

This thread has lost the plot. :rolleyes:
you are in for a big ugly surprise
With all due respect Scott, just how long do i have to wait for this supprise? :p

What do you think the correct thing to do is when your are several feet off the ground, sinkinking and drifting sideways?
If your still several feet off the ground and sinking, drifting or not, you'd better add power if you don't already have it on.
Leaving the engine at idle to me seems like a certain rollover is going to happen
Not nesasserily, but a hard bump is.
I agree that practicing most landings at idle makes for a better gyro pilots, but not when the wind is "howling".
Your engine don't care wot the wind is do'n Scott, it'll die whenever it feels like it, even in howling winds.[ you still have the option to power out of trouble if you stuff it up, it's only at idel, not dead.]
landing at idle with a high wind will result in going backwards more than likely
Only if you have the stick too far back.
I still say Mike S. did the right thing by applying throttle when he started drifting.
If he did the right thing he wouldn't have gon over. :(
But even the correct corrective inputs are no use if they'er applied too late.

So, from all this i understand you think this bloke just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time Scott?
He's fly'n a stable machine, he's a good flyer, he's experianced, he's flown in strong wind befor without any trouble and he did the right thing. Trouble is, he fell over.?????
[ wot would i know]

Recon i'll just bury me head in my little part o the world. :mad:

[mceagle]

At the risk of sounding critical again, drift is controlled with the joystick and yaw is controlled by rudder.
The only fly in the ointment here is the amount of yaw authority that a particular rudder has. If a rudder is insufficient enough to correct the yaw then a bit of power may help, but only to correct the yaw, not the drift.

[scott heger]

Birdy, I don't think you are going to get surprised by much, and that comment was not directed at you. However that statement was ment for many gyro pilots that will find out the hard way what it takes to tip a gyro in the future. I respect all your comments that you add to this forum.

Mike tipped over because he made a minor mistake that under normal wind conditions would not haved caused any problems. This is not a wrongplace/wrong time accident. He gave you his story what happened...and it is not my place to critique it. I saw what happened in person. I was the second person to arrive to assist him. When his gyro went over, it came to rest mast down. He was hanging partially upside down in the seat by his safety belts . The front of him was sprayed in gasoline, he was understandably dazzed from what had just happened, and a large puddle of fuel was forming under the gyro from the electric fuel pump that continued to pump from a ruptured fuel line. One spark and both he and the people assisting him would have all burned. Despite what occured to his gyro, he was a very lucky man that day.

As far as using power for rudder control in a high wind landing, I just think it is safer. It also gives the option of making a quick turn to land into the wind at the last moment as others have suggested if needed.

The moral of this is that high winds can cause challanges to even the most experienced pilots. Lets all just be careful and extra alert when the winds are strong, and don't try any of this stuff until you have built up lots of hours/experience. Hey, as a side note "down under" guys, I asked earlier in this thread, are you allowed to fly in Sydney or other highly populated areas?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[Chopper Reid]

Scott, as far as I'm aware, there are no gyros flying over Sydney or Melbourne. I'm not aware of any gyros being VH registered at this time!!
One reason for not having to fly over populated areas is that there are many thousands of miles of lovely quiet [few aircraft or people] countryside that beckons a gyro and I for one enjoy the freedom we have out here. I am aware that many of you guys have to share airports and airspace with heavy traffic including jets and I take my hat off to you . Not having to fly in controlled airspace also allows cheaper flying eg, not having to have radios, transponders and all the other gear necessary. I do have a FW licence so I'm aware of the procedures necessary !

I can sympathize with Mike as I have been upside down, twice now, once in my gyro when the nosewheel dropped into a soft depression on takeoff which flipped me right over and the second time in a locally [Australian] made Jabiru ultalight upon landing.[I was a passenger] Both accidents fortunately caused no injuries but it did raise the stress level sigificantly!! Interestingly enough despite being upside down in both cases, there was no fuel leakages and in the case of the Jabiru, very little damage compared to what a Cessna or Piper would have looked like in similiar circumstances !!!

[Chopper Reid]

I also agree with Russ and Scott, dont try landing in high speed cross winds if you can avoid it.

I did it Russ to check out for myself why Mike might have had a problem and also to give myself some practice in X wind procedure as I dont do X wind stuff normally as I tend to land into the wind mostly as usually, space isnt a concern.

While I'm so chatty, I reckon Sparrow Hawks could be challenging in high speed X winds with their high center of gravity and if the rotor disc isnt managed correctly, it will be expensive.

[OzyRuss]

Tim...

spot on as usual..............

[ no mate..........you're not bein critical......keep doin it ]

[BUD ONEAL]

Birdy,Brian,Ozy.
First I don,t believe that there is very many,if any one here in the states who can match your time in the air,or in birdys case barely in the air as he said that he gets nose bleed above 50' agl!, We all tend to over estimate our skills and time in the air here in the states. I have been in gyros for the last 18-20 years.I have had my share of roll overs and blade busting also,But not from a cross wind roll over. I learned from some of the best,Ernie Boyette,Bill Parsons, Van Hoten,ect. And all said by all means learn to land in a "modertate" cross wind. BUT why do it when you can land into the wind cross ways? Remember the PIC makes all the decisions. If you are not comfortable landing in a cross wind,Then by all means don't! If you are not comfortable flying in gusty conditions Then by all means don't! This is supposed to be fun,Except in our friends down under cases, Not many of us here in the states "Muster Cows" for a living and I don't know of any who make a living flying gyros either.
So let good sense take over, No one will shout at you if you excerise your right as PIC and land into the wind and not roll over.{even those of you in sunny cal}.
Bud O'Neal

[OzyRuss]

Bud.......

for the record, I teach cowboys and others to fly these gyros, so they can then chase those cows etc.
Some of em fly more hours ina month, than I do ina year.......some of em.
And all of em fly rings around me after a time........the buggers are fearless

cheers.......

[Chopper Reid]

Russ, not so sure about the fearless part :)

Bud, I agree with you absolutely, there arent many reasons why anyone should have to do a high speed X wind landing due to a gyro's little or nil landing roll and I also agree that flying is meant to be fun. Thats what its all about !! having fun and learning.

I'm a relatively late comer into gyros learning to fly in 94 and its due to you and all the guys, Tim McClure included who taught yourselves to fly and built your own gyros 20 or more years ago that I and Birdy and many others can hop in our gyros tomorrow morning and do 10 or so hours in a well built,safe good performing gyro that has performance to spare and heaps of reliability.

[birdy]

I'll pull me head outa the sand, just fore a bit. ;)
The only reason i post anything on this forum is coz i may be able to alert sum newby to a sinario that his instructer may not know about.
I'v learnt a few tricks and had a few ' steep steps' in my learning curve and been lucky enough to get away with it.[ sumones lookn after me].
If i prevent sumone from have'n to learn the same way, then i recon the time on the forums is worth it.
I don't like to 'instruct' over this forum, but when i recon theres sumthn thats not understood, i'll throw my 2 bobs worth in.
Tim said wot i'v been try'n to say all along, drift is controlled with the joystick , which is why i'v been sayn power and rudder are the wrong responce. IOW, fly the stick.
Also, as has been stated by others, most times gyros can be 'spoted' into the wind, so theres no need for a xwind landing. But as i'v also said, engines have a habit of dieing without notice,[ i used to fly a soob too :D ] and if your only option is a xwind landing, without power, on a narrow road??. You then have no option, so understand the technique, then gradualy practice it, before you need to.

are you allowed to fly in Sydney
Scott, mate, you wouldn't catch me dead in Sydney on foot, let alone in a gyro. :p

Bud, the first thing i made sure i had nailed was the unschedualed landing, from any alt or att. Coz with the stuff we 'fearless'??? blokes do you don't get a seconds warning, it has to be an instant and instinctive reaction to the dreaded silence.
I'v put it down on a spot in the scrub coz i 'lost' power, i didn't have the alt to check if it was just carb ice [ which it was]. Felt like a right d1ckhead sit'n in the gyro in the scrub, with the engine still putt'n away. :o ] But at least i was a live right d1ckhead.

BTW Russ, i got plenty o fear. Fear o hights n speed. :rolleyes: