Mentone taxi ways [Archive] - Rotary Wing Forum

barnstorm2

10-13-2005, 07:25 AM

Heron,

I have not heard of any plans for a taxiway being installed at Mentone but it could sure use it. It is a royal pain to pull off into the rough grass and or coordinate back-taxing during the busy convention.

Adding a taxiway would certainly make the airport and convention safer and make flying during the busy times much more enjoyable.

My 2 place had a scrawny nosewheel (which months later sheared off in a hard landing) and I was very concerned about taxing through the grass and hitting a small ditch. I was unwilling to taxi on the rough side grass with a passenger so that made taking people up an extra pain. My new 2 place will be designed with grass runway abilities.

It is a shame to see that some people still think that improvements to Mentone are a waste of money. The convention is a key component of the PRA and the benefits of such have been well documented elsewhere and I will not repeat them here. I suppose it is because they are unwilling to travel to Mentone and thus feel it is a waste since they personally wont get to use any improvements. Rather selfish and short-sighted I think, to think such and ignore all of the benefits of the PRA. I should expect that if these people are EAA members they complain to the EAA about any improvements to Oshkosh and Lakeland facilities.

I have never belonged to a club or org with so many lame, armchair nags as the PRA has. The people that actually do work have must have at least a hundred deadweights riding their coat tails belly-aching about a club fee that costs less then a haircut or two. The fees for my yacht club are over $2400 a year and when we called for volunteers to help dredge the waterway we got a full team, at once, with no complaints.

Heron, I applaud your efforts. I don’t always see eye to eye with you on some things but these improvements and the purchase of additional airports throughout the country (world) I sure do.

I will match your bag of cement (concrete) and raise you one plus one weekend day of labor. If the project starts after the completion of my rebuild I hope to donate even more.

I like the idea of PRA credit cards that help fund the PRA but do you know how much the banks charge to do this and what the expected returns would be?

I don’t know crap about building a taxiway so give me some margin on this next idea…

What about selling engraved bricks or something that gets placed in the taxiway? Several local projects for memorials have been partially funded this way. The donation would pay for the engraved brick and say 2 or 4 square feet of taxiway. PRA Chapters could use this to recognize past or present members and individuals could do the same or show their support for anything or anyone they wanted.

Heron

10-13-2005, 09:38 AM

Tim, that is the idea, one brick at the time, but this have to be a personal effort, not PRA's policy, we should complement their plans.
I had good time at Mentone, the place is very cozy and I liked it, the camping set up is not very good, I have some ideas . . .now the bathrooms are really bad.
If a company opens up in Brazil, they will be closed till they fix that bathroom, that is not acceptable for any county and we are number 1!!!
I will check for a credit card set up, it is not expensive and they take a littel fee in any transaction we make. You spend and the PRA gets a comission.
It can eliminate the need for annual fee, it is going to be simbolic to show you are still interested as a member.
I would like to see those aircraft parading down to the runway without crossing with traffic, both human and machine.
And the runway has to be safe, the FAA guys there did not do their job well.
But overall it was a good show, I thank all that work to put it together.
One more thing, lets drop the hard work crap, we love doing it!
thanks
Heron

Heron

10-13-2005, 04:52 PM

I went to PRA site and there is no pic for the airport, can someone take care of it, I know there must be many ofthem around.
Here is one.
Heron

GyroRon

10-13-2005, 05:14 PM

Tim I personally agree with most of what you said, but I would rather use money spent on a taxiway to be spent on projects and plans to further grow the PRA. I don't think adding a taxiway will result in more members of the PRA. If you think a taxiway will net more members then please fill me in on it.

Timchick

10-13-2005, 05:38 PM

Once the airport is paid off the same mount of money that was being paid on the loan could be set aside for improvements such as a taxiway, bathrooms, etc.

GyroRon

10-13-2005, 06:08 PM

Once the airport is paid off the same mount of money that was being paid on the loan could be set aside for improvements such as a taxiway, bathrooms, etc.

I suppose it could, and wouldn't have a problem if some money was spent on improvements. But I would prefer to have 12 issues of the magazine again instead of the 8 or so I seem to be getting now. I also would like to see more exposure for the PRA in other avenues..... The airport needs to be kept up, but to me there is more important ways to spend what little money we have than on a taxiway.

If the current grassy areas are not smooth enough for all gyros then I suggest buying a used steam roller and rolling the grass every few months to keep it smooth. A nice used roller can be bought for a small fraction of what a new taxiway would cost, leaving us with a paid off airport and money left over to promote rotorcraft and the PRA.

Heron

10-13-2005, 06:38 PM

Money makes the world go around!
I wish sometimes that I had enough to prove a point . . .
Whatta hell, let's keep trying.
Heron

barnstorm2

10-13-2005, 07:48 PM

Ron, Tim,

Excellent points.

I wish I had more information about the cost of a taxiway, the cost of running PRA ads in Popular Science or maybe some motorcycle builder magazines.

Money spent on something that would generate new members could and should nearly pay for it'self.

Such ADs or other proven means of generating membership should be considered before a taxiway.

The convention is (please correct me if I am wrong) as I understand it is the largest money maker the PRA has.

Keeping that in mind…. Tim pointed out the airport is soon to be a revenue producer, that could still make the taxiway an important issue.

Question 1. Would the creation of a taxiway make an important improvement in safety (a hot issue with our hobby), increase enjoyment (bystanders and pilots) and “participation” at the Mentone convention?

Now I am not trying to say that a taxiway is going to increase attendance but I believe just has Heron has pointed out, it would make it safer and more enjoyable for pilots and audience. It seems to me the biggest attraction at the convention is indeed flying and watching gyros fly.

Question 2. If we have donated labor, or partially donated labor, just how much does a taxiway cost?

Question 3. Could the taxiway be paid for in short order by Mentone revenue and private donations?

Question 4. Would people be more willing to donate to have a brick at Mentone than an AD in a magazine?

Heron

10-14-2005, 04:01 AM

Dragging a gyro all the way down to the flight area is not fun and I don't think the crowd is pleased at all with that.
PRA membeship drive is a different matter thant improvement done at the airport, they are two separated entities and should have separate venues.
PRA precedes the airport and new membeship is not very high, I think the airport is an attraction itself.
I do not think paving part of the taxyway its going to be that expensive and can be done by people without professional experience. We are not landing Jumbos there.
It is a necessity that could save lifes and make the show brighter, membership will have its own progress as we progress and get more exposure.
Imagine a newbee that knows something of aviation watching those landings?
Heron

donshoebridge

10-14-2005, 04:06 AM

For reference, the far side of the runway is considered the "taxiway", which is a total POS in my opinion. Generally, prior to the convention, the far side of the runway is rolled, but I don’t think it happened this year for some reason. Shortly after Mentone 2004, I suggested that a real taxiway be put in on the near side, between the runway and then bathrooms. That way no one would have to cross an active runway except for maybe to spin up rotors.

I also suggested that all of the fixed wing traffic be allowed to park closer to the bathrooms and the vehicle parking be moved back off of the runway/taxiway area to allow for more fixed wing parking. I can't tell you how many times I've seen fixed wing aircraft fly in only to take off again because they see just how far they have to walk to get back to the food and other activities. The reason I heard that the fixed wingers are parked so far away was because “the FAA doesn’t want the general public that close to operating aircraft”. Oh, please!! One look at Oshkosh tells me that this is just another accuse to not do anything “different”.

Some of the people that are part of the "good 'ol boy's club" don't want anyone outside of the PRA even coming to Mentone during the convention. But that's another issue.

Brent_Brown

10-14-2005, 06:24 AM

He said good old boy.

Heron

10-14-2005, 08:31 AM

Point me one and I kick them butt! :D
I heard that the frost from winter had something to do with not rolling the grassy area (this word gives me the chills .. .grassy knoll) and as far as people and live machines close, we have the whole hangar area, which is necessary for tests and adjustments been walked all over by visitors.
A different Layout can be devised and implemented, I think that area where the MotorHomes are is a prime real state and should be used with tents for vendors, keeping the big vehicles a little further once they are self suficient,
Heron

barnstorm2

10-14-2005, 08:41 AM

He said good old boy.

Every time I read this the voice in my head belongs to Bevis of MTV fame :D

Don,

I agree completely the 'taxiway' is a POS and outside of the rough ground there is a slight "ditch" along side the runway which I assume is for (or from) water run off.

If I were in my old HTL AC447 it would be no problem. However, in my lead slead way up high in my CLT seat it is another story all together.

Maybe I am just paranoid but it seems to me that going over bumps and ridges increases the chance of blade flap. The grass taxiway being where we spin-up, I started just waiting until I am fully on the runway before pre-rotating.

Don I don't agree with putting the hard surface taxiway on the close (bathroom) side of the runway. I feel this way for these reasons:

1. If I had to make an emergency landing on the taxi way (runway occupied) I would want the taxiway to be away from the bystanders and on the side of the corn.

I know this may sound over-safety zelous but this has actually happened to me. Not at Mentone of course, but at I69 I was departing when my engine quit and a FW had already started his take off roll. Therefore I landed on the taxiway next to the runway and everything was fine.

2. The taxiway should be away from the audience. That way we can spin up on the taxiway, and be less distracted and if we have a problem we can pull off away from the runway and the audience.

3. Parking. Currently parking is on the close side of the runway and I think that is a good arrangement. People can view the gyros and if you don't want people touching your machine you can leave it over the line. If the taxiway were on the close side we would have to figgure out where to park the gyros. Even with all the room it was getting crowded Fri and Sat. It also servers as a nice staging area for the vendors, and close to your tools if you notice something during preflight. Lastly I would not want to have to cross the runway for parking.

Don you also said that the FW's should not have their parking at the end of the runway.

I have not heard of any FWers leaving cause they had to walk from their plane to the vendors. I have walked down there many times to look at the FWs and I simply don't think it is that far. If they cant walk two hangar lengths then I don't see how they are going to pass their medical next time!!

There might be reasons for the choice of this spot for FW parking. If there are I do not know them and can only guess and speculate. The first thing that comes to mind is that keeps them from having to taxi around the gyros (or vise versa). The second is that they can back-taxi right into close parking ( having a FW pull off at the vendor end would be a nightmare!).

Maybe I am just being an ass with this next one ( I can imagine Brent saying in the background "He said ass!" :D )... At many fly-ins we rotorcraft get brushed away to the far side of the field (chopper town, other fly-ins) as the black sheep. Maybe it's payback time for once :eek: ;)

Heron,

Here is a picture I took flying over Mentone 04. I used it on the PRA 34 web site and was also used for the PRA site.

I will post the key at the end of this message.

Don,

If FW parking N were moved closer or into zone L then they would be crossing the helicopter's grass runway M. I don't know if that would be an issue or not..

Note: The end of the runway and the rest of FW parking (B) is not shown on this picture.

--------------------------------------------

Key:

A Admissions, Entrance, Information

B PRA Office, Memberships, Help, Information

C AvGas, Fueling

D Gyroplane Vendors, Demo Ride Registrations

E Cantina, PRA Concession, Shaded Tables.

F Mobile Office, Pilot Briefings, Seminars, PRA Meetings

G Flight Line Viewing Area, Operations Viewing

H Vendors

I Hangars, Swap Meet, Tower

J Restrooms, Showers

K PRA Rotorcraft Museum, Swap Meet, PRA Merchandise

L Flight Line Viewing Area, Contest Registration, Gyro Tie Down

M Helicopter Vendors, Helicopter Tie Down, Helicopter Operations

N Fixed Wing Tie Down

O Parking, Camping, Swap Meet, Flight Viewing Area

barnstorm2

10-14-2005, 08:55 AM

PHoto Post Mentone

donshoebridge

10-14-2005, 09:19 AM

Tim,

Taxiway: I suggested the east side of the runway because there's more space - no corn field. Currently, FW traffic must back-taxi the active to depart. The area on the other side of the runway is a little narrow (I think). Besides, you can always move the crowd line back from where it is now, if it were on the east side. Currently, from the existing crowd line to the edge of the runway is 120 feet. There is another 90 feet (or so) between the bathrooms and the crowd line. As for rolling the runway - we had a dry summer this year and a very short spring. There was a real small window of opportunity to roll the taxiway because of wet/dry conditions.

FW Traffic leaving: Every year that I've been to Mentone, there has been at least 1 or 2 planes that leave without even walking from the parking area. Granted, it isn't a lot, but as small as the gyro industry is, I would think that we would like to draw in and keep as many people as possible. So having them park closer to the action is fine by me, and I think it would also be more of a draw for the locals that drive through the gate. I don't think having the FW guy’s taxi across the helo runway is an issue because they'll need to do it at some point anyways - either when they land or when they leave.

Payback: I'll bet that 99.9% of all pilots started off in a fixed wing, and then they converted to either helo's, gyro's, PPC's, trike's, etc. So to exclude everyone except for rotary winged is not very fair to the industry. EVERYONE here should be doing everything we can think of to indoctrinate as many non-rotary wing pilots/builders/enthusiasts as we can. Pushing them off to the edge of the village is the wrong thing to do. There are those that will not convert or accept gyro’s or helo’s, but if they show up to Mentone, they must have some interest. If not, maybe we can generate some.

Heron

10-14-2005, 09:36 AM

Hey Tim, you're smoking!!! (like in on fire not the other one :D )
The big area should be the inner sanctum and the small area at the entrance the public area.
Maybe stands with room for tents in the back could be a good thing.
A Convention tower close to the runway for the air boss and video cameras (a good scafold will do)
Make it bigger, they will come!
Heron

barnstorm2

10-14-2005, 09:37 AM

Don,

I was just making snide remark about the pushing off of the FW. I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome!

Do we know why the FW's left?

People land and leave without staying at my local airports all the time. Sometimes they are just dropping down to get a closer look, just doing a t-n-g or perhaps they did not know there was an event and when they got in decided not to mess with getting fuel when things are so busy.

As far as space issues go It looks like we have plenty of room for a taxiway on the far side but I know nothing of such issues when it comes to building runways and taxiways.

I would fear that if we put the taxiway on the close slide the taxiing aircraft would block the view and pictures of those trying to watch people taking off and landing. Since we don't allow rotorspin up on the close side next to the audience (for good reason I think) that would mean we can not spin up on the taxiway and that would suck.

Timchick

10-14-2005, 05:21 PM

If the taxiway is put on the opposite side of the runway how do you get over to it? If you have to taxi across grass to get to the taxiway doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a taxiway?

barnstorm2

10-14-2005, 07:56 PM

I would not say it defeats the purpose of having the taxiway. I am used to crossing to a taxiway because I fly from an aiport with hangars on both sides.

It does make it much easyer to access on the close side.

The driveway comes in so close to the end of the runway we might need to make small turn around there, sort of where we have the 'staging' area for people giving rides now.

Tim, after consideration that does make the most sense when traffic is departing away from the road. I will have to sneak over to the corn field to get my pictures now dangit :( I hope we will be able to spin up on the taxiway.

Timchick

10-14-2005, 08:12 PM

The airport at Wachula (Bensen Days) has the taxiway on the crowd side and some people do spin up as they taxi down to the EOR. Watch the Bensen Days video and you can see it in a lot of the footage.

Heron

10-15-2005, 04:23 AM

Maybe this set up?
Heron

GyroRon

10-15-2005, 04:56 AM

Has anyone gotten any information concerning what construction will be needed for this taxiway? By this I mean what kind of base does it need? How deep or thick is the pavement supposed to be? Will it have to meet State or Local code? What does the FAA require?

And then once all that is figured out, does anyone have any realistic estimates of what it will cost? The runway at Goose Creek is only 30 feet wide and is a little over 2000 feet long and we were quoted over 30 grand just to seal coat the runway and repair a few areas of broken pavement. I think I heard the runway cost over 100 grand the last time it was re paved. Add in the cost of building the taxiways foundation and todays higher prices for practically everything and I see this taxiway is going to cost a butt load of money.

I think it is fun and neat to discuss where the taxiway should be located and where we park airplanes and all, but you guys need to stop dreaming and get some prices on this stuff and then I think you will see my point that the last thing the Popular ROTORCRAFT Association needs to spend that much money on is another improvment to the airport, while everything else suffers.

You can take white paint, or limestone like they use to mark ballfields, and make a " taxiway " to use for the fly-ins if the lack of a marked taxiway makes things too un-organized. I am just surprised that this group - Gyro pilots - which is so good at turning trash and cheap stuff into neat little flying machines, who are so good at scrounging and doing things on a tight budget are so willing to just throw money at something as un-needed as a expensive taxiway, without first looking at cheaper practical ways to solve the problem at hand.

Timchick

10-15-2005, 05:48 AM

Ron,
I don't think it's a done deal yet. I think you are right about trying a roller on the grass. A lot could be done to try smoothing out the grass. That would be a whole lot cheaper than constructing a taxiway. Add some dirt to fill in any ruts, etc. , cut the grass real short and roll it.

GyroRon

10-15-2005, 05:50 AM

Thanks Tim, someone who catches my drift. We have to remember the PRA is not made of money and as it is there is less money now than when we bought the airport. Let's think outside the expensive box!

Heron

10-15-2005, 07:43 AM

Yeah! all of that and something else
With 1.000 members donating 30 bucks we have a hell of a start.
This is a dreamer thread, those who are awake go fly some or do whatever you do when awake.
And when we get over been idiots unaware of costs and regulations we are going to start a thread and invite you to participate.
And . . .it is just a free exercise of looking for solutions, land to the free right?
heron

barnstorm2

10-15-2005, 07:52 AM

Ron,

Like I said in post 14, we need to know what the cost of this would be and I have no idea.

Your numbers are the first I heard.

Do you have any info on how much of that cost was materials and how much was labor?

As Don said what we have now is a POS and making a smooth strong foundation for a grass taxiway would be fine with me if we can get rid of the ridges and ditches and potholes!!!

C. Beaty

10-15-2005, 08:19 AM

A 20’ x 2000’ taxiway comprises 40,000 square feet.

Asphalt paving cost can run anywhere from $1 to $5 per square foot.

For $1, you get a thin layer of tar on dirt, for $5, you get a proper crushed rock base.

Heron

10-15-2005, 08:45 AM

Ciment 7.47 per sac
Roughly the guys here calculated 500 feet by 10 feet at under 10g's
Calling Rinker to find out.
It will be layered over iron grid with 4inches tickness.
It seems the base is strong enough not to required foundation, but the locals can tell us better.
Jump in here someone local, please? (yeah right) :D
They are all closed but it is going to be cheaper than asfalt by much.
Heron

Dean_Dolph

10-16-2005, 08:25 AM

.....and some people do spin up as they taxi down to the EOR. Watch the Bensen Days video and you can see it in a lot of the footage.....Tim, I'm not sure that the blades are spun up but for sure the props are turning and I, for one, have always been concerned about that. This is not safe in my mind. But since getting to and from the apron requires that the engine be running then I don't know what else can be done. Gyros are not the only ones that park there and while a requirement could be made that gyros not be started there; it would be impractical to expect that from the fixed wings. I hope we aren't hijacking this thread!

It doesn't hurt to discuss the Mentone taxi way, or other improvements, on the Forum but it is the PRA BOD who will make the decisions. I know that Tim Blackwell visits here so hopefully he is taking note. I doubt if we will come up with any new suggestions but new ideas for implementation are possible.

I suspect that when the airport is paid for (soon!) then airport improvements will be on the agenda along with other items. I would hope that before airport improvements are considered that the BOD focuses on PRA growth. Growth will improve the bottom line where airport improvements and chapter support, and other services, will be possible.

I'm glad that we have the airport and enjoy my visits but I don't see it as being a draw for new members or a reason to join the PRA. It will be the amenities/support offered at the chapter level that will generate growth. I think that Chapters 26, 13, 20, and to a lesser extent 18 and 35, are visible in their activities and help promote growth. I'm sorry to say that I don't see any Texas chapters that visible.

Timchick

10-16-2005, 10:00 AM

Maybe my terminology wasn't correct. Some people start their rotors turning some as they taxi down the taxiway. I didn't mean that they were spinning them up at higher RPM speeds.

donshoebridge

10-16-2005, 04:47 PM

I would fear that if we put the taxiway on the close slide the taxiing aircraft would block the view and pictures of those trying to watch people taking off and landing. Since we don't allow rotorspin up on the close side next to the audience (for good reason I think) that would mean we can not spin up on the taxiway and that would suck.

No, not really. The area north of the museum would be full of parked aircraft and open to spectators just like at Oshkosh, with a rope seperating parking from operations. Everything south of the museum would be open for whatever. I just think its BS to stick visiting FW'ers out in the leper colony at the far end of the field. I want to make them feel welcomed and brainwash these people into buying a gyro, or at least go for a ride in one.

One issue that just really sticks in my craw is that the PRA (on average) signs up more new members at Oshkosh than during the Mentone Convention. Granted, Oshkosh is huge by comparison, but there have been some years when the PRA convention didn't sign up anyone. I want to see so new faces, faces that haven't been exposed to this type of flying to the degree of the PRA convention. There are a lot of non-rotary wigned types out there that have a preconceived notion that "gyro's are dangerous". I want those people to come to the convention and go for a ride. It's more powerfull to have someone convert to gyro's than to start off in gyro's. That's all I'm really trying to do. Oshkosh is familure to most aviation buffs. Mentone is not. If Mentone looked a little bit more like Oshkosh, there would be more people leaving with warm-fuzzies. But the first thing we need to do is get the non-gyro types to Mentone first. And to do that there has to be an attraction and Mentone needs to be able to accomdate more non-gyro traffic. Am I wrong?

Heron

10-16-2005, 05:00 PM

Don is right, we need more party going on at Mentone, the visitors may be interested in gyros but some just will come for the party and friendship.
Of couse some of us have different paces and waiting is not on top of our list but if there will be improvement for 2006, we can help in many ways.
Just pick something, get a coordinator and get going.
Ok, lets do the bathroom then . . .
People can come to the gate and receive a little pamphlet that shows them what to avoid during their visit, minimizing the riscs of been close to live aircraft.
Matter fact, how is the rally for new membership going in the chapters.
Texas . . .texas . . . someone should start the approach and get those guys back, they (many) still PRA members.
Heron

donshoebridge

10-16-2005, 05:40 PM

Heron,

What I'm saying is that other than the flying, it's hard to find many other good reasons why to fly into and stay at Mentone for a couple of days. At Oshkosh, I don't want to leave because I'm afraid I might miss something.

I just want to make Mentone more inviting to visitors that fly in. Having them park in BFE is not what I would call "inviting".

Heron

10-17-2005, 04:48 AM

I don't know if other events happen at Mentone, but they should and that airport could be making more money when it happens.
I like it there . . .
Heron

Heron

10-18-2005, 06:40 AM

Concrete rough estimate $90 per yard - 1000 X 10 = 200 yards = 18 G's
The pads can be poured by hand and one by one, it will be a fun project and good days at the fly-in. Barbecue anyone? :D
It is more durable according to Modern Concrete, comparing to asphalt and as it is modular we can make it little by little.
Carpenters, are you ready?
Heron

donshoebridge

10-18-2005, 10:00 AM

Heron,

There is a guy local to Mentone that is always willing to help out for cheep (free, I think). He was the man that was so instrumental in getting the control tower built a couple of years ago. One hard worker! And good!

Even though I don't like your view of politics, count me in. :)

Heron

10-18-2005, 10:23 AM

That is good, politics are always not solid ground and we can debate forever, I will take the other side in any discussion, will give my best to provoke thought and clear everyones mind.
What I really think is always in beetween the lines of discussion, not very clear or definitive, I will change my mind if you view is better.
Point positive is we all want the same: better, bigger and more of what we love, we just have different paths to get there and the message sometimes get lost.
But I can see a group of people getting there, digging a shallow trench, laying the iron grid and pouring concrete from a small mixer, pad by pad and have our taxiway built the best we can to be proud of and take all agravation we can from those that like to find hair in eggs. (kinda like me on my critic mode) :D
Now lets get the ciment there and pile up materials during winter and start working next time weather is good.
I can send 30 bucks for the ciment, who's going to coordinate the plan?
If Immigration allows me back in I may come next year for the Convention and put my hand print in one (maybe the last) block of concrete.
thanks
Heron

barnstorm2

10-18-2005, 10:48 AM

Sign me up for a bag or two of concrete (ciment). Most likely I can donate a day of work so long as it is on a weekend. I will be spending more time driving to Mentone then working but that is ok, I have a hybrid car.

As far a coordination goes that of course should be someone like Tim Blackwell who is in driving distance and knows the airport factilites well.

(and knows the closest place to buy beer)

Heron

10-18-2005, 01:09 PM

An airplane . . .we need an airplane to pick up our laborers and fly them to Mentone.
:)
Heron (3 bags of ciment)

donshoebridge

10-19-2005, 04:05 AM

Tim Blackwell does not live in Indiana anymore. He moved to Florida last month. At this point, other than Glen Bundy, I am the closest person to Mentone. Obviously we would have to clear this type of activity with the powers.

GyroRon

10-19-2005, 04:44 AM

Heron, did I miss something or did you join the PRA yet?

Heron

10-19-2005, 08:30 AM

I will join when you stop been sneaky and negative about almost anything! :D
Drop out!! :D
Habib . . .
Heron

GyroRon

10-19-2005, 04:23 PM

I will join when you stop been sneaky and negative about almost anything! :D
Drop out!! :D
Habib . . .
Heron

Heron I am not being Sneaky.... Where do you come up with calling me that?

And as for being negative, I am not trying to be negative, I am living in the here and now and the here and now tells me this will cost far more than you think and far more than what a few people willing to donate 5 or 20 bucks will come to. This project will end up having to be paid for by the PRA and that is money I think could be spent on other things.

Me asking you if you had joined was a sincere question.... I assume that you have but wanted to ask to be sure.

BUD ONEAL

10-19-2005, 05:04 PM

Here in north fla. cement is now over $120.00 per yd.$1200.00 per 10 yd truck 144 sq.ft per yd. 1440 sq ft per 10 yd. load = a lot of bucks

Robert G. Stark

10-19-2005, 06:56 PM

We could move the convention and Flyin to Olney, Texas. We have three paved runways all with taxiways and lots of open space for flying. Texas Rotorcraft Associan has held four flyins here already.

GyroRon

10-19-2005, 08:01 PM

Robert, unless your airport has power and water hookups for a line of motorhomes, it won't happen. The people who make the decisions in the PRA have decided long ago that we have to make sure we cater to those who show up for the fly-ins in motorhomes. Got to have power, got to have water......

Some of the old timers - Bud Oneal is one of them - tell me the best days of the PRA was when people CAMPED at the fly-ins in tents. They didn't need power, or a 300 grand motorhome to have a few days of fun with their friends.

I really do think the convention should move around, and personally don't see the need for power hook ups. Most motorhomes I have seen are self contained.

donshoebridge

10-20-2005, 04:15 AM

To satisfy the southern crowd, just have a winter convention in Texas, or in Arizona, Nevada, California, wherever. The PRA has always been open to having the convention somewhere else, be very few groups can/could pull it off for one reason or another. The bottomline is that the convention needs to be profitable regardles of where it's located. During the off season, obviously Mentone isn't making any money for the PRA. But the convention is not the only event that takes place up here. There are a couple of RV clubs that come and camp out for a week at a time. There's been a fireworks convention (this was really cool!), and a couple of other events that were less interesting. But if someone else can have a profitable "CONVENTION" in another state, profitable for the PRA, then have at it.

barnstorm2

10-20-2005, 05:14 AM

Wow, A southern winter convention sounds like a great idea.

Dean_Dolph

10-20-2005, 06:14 AM

We could move the convention and Flyin to Olney, Texas. We have three paved runways all with taxiways and lots of open space for flying. Texas Rotorcraft Associan has held four flyins here already.Robert, correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that the Texas Rotorcraft Association is a stand alone association and is not affiliated with the PRA. If that is fact then there is a problem, I think!

The fact is that the Convention has to be profitable and up until the convention in Waxahachie it had been. That convention left the PRA in a pretty big hole that took awhile to recover from and apparently some bitter people. No one wants to do that again.

That Convention and the one at Hearn, TX. in '90 where it was so hot that I'm surprised we didn't have heat stroke problems have convinced me that a Convention in Texas isn't a good idea. These conventions take a lot of work by a lot of people and are hard to pull off. Chapter 78 gave their best effort in trying to hold the one at Waxahachie when the weather was cooler but it didn't work.

The fact is that if the Convention is moved around it isn't likely to have the amenities that Mentone has. Heron complains about the rest room/shower facilities but I guess I'm a little less picky because I don't see the problem. Temporarily setting up for campers with electricity/water/porta potties/food and then the insurance that airports are requiring can get quite expensive. It doesn't make sense to spend that money when there are permanent facilities at Mentone.

I live in Texas and wish the Convention could be held here without the expense but I don't see it happening; consequently I'll continue to make the Mentone pilgrimage. I do wish there were a practical/workable way to take the burden of hosting the Convention off of the local Mentone area chapter(s) and people. I do like the idea of a Southern convention during the winter that Don has mentioned. But………….

I think this thread has been hijacked so back to the original program. :D

Heron

10-20-2005, 11:16 AM

Well . . .I have to apologise, I started this post with a harsh remark and erased it.
Sensei Dolph, I have camped in Brazil a lot, never in a bath room like that.
It is just neglect not money . . .If I could go there couple of days in advance I would take care of that on my own pocket.
Texas in winter is cold enough for me to look for another place . . .
TRA is not associated and the powers should get out of the couch.
Ron Awad, go to Home Depot and see how much you will spend and what kind of labor involved for a patch of concrete.
Multiply the patches an voila!
. . .and son . . .you are negative, sometimes extremely, lightn up, you are a young, handsome, intelligent man.
This thread has not been hijacked, all revolves around making the convention better, in Mentone of elsewhere.
I am convinced that we can make the taxyways a realitty.
Maybe if I donate some money, ronny will leave me be . . .
Olney is an awsome place for a Meeting of bigger proportions.
Heron

Brickartis

10-20-2005, 03:27 PM

First thanks for all the information you guys gave me. You posted different square footages, but the formula is square footage divided by 81 gives you the yards. One estimate was 5000 square feet, that equals approx. 62 yards times current price of concrete. Should be somewhere around 100.00 per yard.

gyromike

10-20-2005, 07:17 PM

How long and wide is this proposed taxiway going to be? Also how thick?

I've attached an Excel spreadsheet I made up a while back to calculate concrete costs. It's in a zip file, you'll have to unzip it.

Chuck B. mentioned a 2000' x 20' taxiway.
Isn't Mentone 2500' long?
Let's make it 2500' x 20' x 4" thick (and I don't know if that's thick enough).

A cubic yard contains 27 cubic feet (3x3x3).
For a 4 inch thick slab, divide sq. footage by 3 (1/3 of a foot thick) to obtain cubic footage. Then divide by 27 for cubic yardage.
(2500x20)/3 = 16666.66 cu.ft.
16666.66/27 = 617.28 cu.yd. of concrete.

At the above mentioned estimate of $100 per cu.yd., you're looking at $61,728 in concrete cost alone.
No base preparation.
No form work.
No rebar.
No finishing.

Something to think about.

barnstorm2

10-20-2005, 07:36 PM

Looks like I better change that to a donation of a bag of grass seed...

Any usable material cheaper than concrete??

GyroRon

10-20-2005, 08:38 PM

Pavement is less, but not by a huge amount.

Timchick

10-21-2005, 03:41 AM

What about the concrete cracking with the winter/spring frost heaves? Isn't Indiana cold enough for that? It seems pavement would be more flexible and would eliminate cracking?

scottessex

10-21-2005, 04:07 AM

At the above mentioned estimate of $100 per cu.yd., you're looking at $61,728 in concrete cost alone.
No base preparation.
No form work.
No rebar.
No finishing.

Then double that cost to cover labor and you are about at the right price.
What is wrong with grass?

donshoebridge

10-21-2005, 04:08 AM

Pavement is less, but not by a huge amount.

...and it doesn't require forms to lay down.

donshoebridge

10-21-2005, 04:12 AM

What about the concrete cracking with the winter/spring frost heaves? Isn't Indiana cold enough for that? It seems pavement would be more flexible and would eliminate cracking?

It's not simply the cold/hot that causes the cracking. It's the snow/ice that melts during day, gets under the concrete, freezes at night, expands then cracks. Good drainage is a must if you want to keep the taxiway intact. Regardless of the amount of re-bar or mesh used, if there is no gravel/rock bed for the concrete to sit on, you're going to have cracks when the water freezes under it.

Paul_in_Ohio

10-21-2005, 07:35 AM

Just an additional note on calculating the material needed...

Figure that the runway and the taxi way will need to be connected, at the least, at each end, and probably one or two places in the middle.

Just food for thought...

rehler

10-21-2005, 09:55 AM

It does not need to be 20' wide. I landed on an airport runway with my Piper Warrior that was only 15' wide in Pearland, Texas. A taxiway could be 10' to 12' wide to save cost.

Asphalt paving "installed" (costs less than concrete here in Texas) is about $3.50 per square foot. 2,500 feet x 12' wide = 30,000 s.f. x $3.50 = $105,000! Could probably get someone to do it cheaper, but still a lot of money.

Heron

10-21-2005, 12:00 PM

The weather is something the local guys can tell us about and how the contractors do their stuff there.
Lets get or pick a number: 30 g's and 3.000 members = 10 bucks each. Doable?
AS we design two pieces of taxiway just to get the aircraft away from each other during take off and landings will be a good start.
Grass is is right now . . .and it has some problems.
Can someone donate a gyro (new) and the poceeds of the rafle used to pay for it later and add to the remodeling?
I will keep playing the lotto just in case! :D
heron

GyroRon

10-21-2005, 04:10 PM

Heron, what is 30 grand going to buy? I still stand to my opinion in post #28.

Brickartis

10-21-2005, 05:29 PM

Pavement is cheaper but periodically needs maintenance (grass or weeds that grow on or thru) and ,needs to be resurfaced . Concrete needs most of its attention when it is installed.
ALL concete cracks, so we do things to deal with this fact. Thicknes , metal reinforcement (galvanized wire or rebar) , Exspasion joints(20 - 30 feet a part), slight incline for drainage, plastic (for slow cure and ground water doesn't wick up) and a sealer. so concrete will out live most of us..

You guys are useing the ground now so I asume there is a stable base, 4'' should be fine unless you exspect to taxi a dumd truck.

I know you guys don't want to hear this but..... it doesn't have to be all at one time.....
expand from the runway or half wyth.

To answer the question, no you don't need forms .You take 2x4s stake them down on their side to the top level of the concrete,pour a section knock em up and move em down. 2x4s can be old or new but should be straight.

What is the run way made of ?

scott heger

10-21-2005, 09:18 PM

Why not ask the PRA Mentone Board for some help , its not the PRA's property right? They have plenty of equity in the property to get a construction loan to install a few turnouts instead of a entire taxiway for the one week a year that PRA uses the property. I find humor in the talk of spending 100K plus for a full taxiway for a once a year event with 50 or so aircraft flyin. Let the PRA spend the money on promoting safety instead.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

Heron

10-22-2005, 06:34 AM

Thanks Scott
Thanks Brickartis
. . .shush Ron ! :D
That is the idea, one piece at the time. The connection to the runway, a piece to line up for take off, a piece to turn back after landing. Look at the pics and present your idea.
Ron A, this band wagon is playing a different tune, join in of stand aside.
Heron

GyroRon

10-22-2005, 04:36 PM

Ron A, this band wagon is playing a different tune, join in of stand aside.
Heron

Heron if you are still not a member of the PRA then how about you stand aside? :eek: If you are not willing to support the PRA by sending in your yearly dues then why in the world do you want to throw out these ideas of paving a taxiway at the PRA airport? Do you not see my point?

This taxiway idea is not going to be paid for by donations, and I am willing to bet that when it is all said and done for, less than 10 percent of the labor needed to do any of this would be free donated labor. If you think otherwise then why not ask all the Pro PRA do gooders how much money they are willing to pledge and have them post it here.

Your "idea" is a good idea, but in the end this project will end up costing the PRA big money and I think that the last thing we need is to keep dumping the PRAs money into a airport while the rest of the Org suffers. Take the money and give us back a 12 issue a year magazine, support the chapters, place ads in other magazines, do something...... But whatever is done, stop wasting our money on this airport. There is thousands upon thousands of grass runways in this country, and I have yet to see a gyro that can't operate off one. If the problem is where to taxi and where to spin up blades and so on, then strip the grounds before the events just like you strip a ballfield and educate the pilots on what is what.

Heron you idea is a good idea, but the PRA does not have the money to do this without continued cutbacks in the other areas.

I am not trying to be sneaky or down you or your ideas.