View Full Version : EJ-22 Avgas?
03-18-2004, 07:46 PM
Anyone run Avgas in a EJ-22?
Is is ok? not ok?
Lead cause any problems with the engine?
03-23-2004, 08:14 PM
Someone must know if it is ok to run avgas or not?? ???
03-24-2004, 01:14 AM
Tim, I run avgas on occaissions when on cross countries.
The avgas here is 100LL.
I think that on Norms forum Ken J said something like "can have valve problems if run continously on avgas."
I don't know where that info came from though.
03-29-2004, 08:50 AM
You hit the nail on the head. I was interested mainly in geting gas x-county
03-29-2004, 05:45 PM
Hi Paul and others,
That info came from 2 pilot's that I recall and maybe there was a third. The first that I recall was Al Cunningham of Washington State. He told me that he burned 100LL exclusively and that after 300+ hours, his valves were history. Another person, whose name I can't recall (may be in Florida or Louisiana) told me the same exact thing with the same exact results. I believe there was a third person with the same experience, but my memory is getting fuzzy.
When I have to refuel, as when I flew from San Diego to Phoenix, I carry some TCP for every refuel. It scavenges the lead. 100LL is loaded with lead, despite the "LL." TCP is worth it, but I wouldn't use it exclusively with 100LL for normal operations. The Soobs seem to thrive on premium auto fuel.
03-29-2004, 06:18 PM
Welcome back Ken
03-30-2004, 09:20 AM
I was just wonderin about you this morning Ken. Glad to see you here.
Regarding gas in EJ22...I have a fuel injected EJ22. Don Parham convinced me that Unleaded-regular works fine in the fuel injected engine, as the computer adjusts the timing as needed.
I have never run Avgas in my EJ22 based on the stories I heard from Al C. Then there is the discussion that came up that the lead in 100 LL will crud up the oxygen sensor, but the computer will do the best it can without that sensor data. Paul, I thought you had commented about that in years past.
So far when I have done a cross country it has always been within a 3 - 3.5 hour roundtrip distance so I didn't need fuel outbound. Or, I've flown places where fellow club members were waiting with auto fuel for me when I landed.
03-30-2004, 10:45 AM
Subaru ej info.
I have pulled apart many subs, steady problems I see with them is leaking head gaskets, or seepage into cylinders which means you will have to inspect cylinders for compression and etching of affected cylinders.
2. Exhaust valves in all engines show pitting, and metal transfer including the hardened seats. Many of you guys do not run rebuilt parts so you have an engine that already has problems but because they have good compression you ignore problems that will eventually pop up under the right circumstances. Lead Saves VALVES. However 2 problems. BTU content of 100 vs auto premium is a bit higher. 2. Ignition timing concerns to run with the fuel different fuel needs a different timing curve and total timing to a point.
3. No exhaust back pressure, engines run good but hot and lean GOT EGT ?
4. O2 sensors are first to get tossed along with the check engine bulb. Get scan data and plug into the ecm and see what the frick is goin on. if not go and see your local mechanic and have him plug in and tell you what is going on. Lead and most fuel additives will contaminate the o2 sensor so DONT USE ANY !!!. which means if you run 100LL your o2 is dead in a matter of mins. If you have tossed the o2 or never hooked it up in the first place the computer will lock down into limp in mode and substitute a fixed value for the fuel trim. Its most likely wrong for a number of reasons. Running the engine in this mode is not wise.
5. Silly to run a cat converter so you have to pay attenetion to the higher air flow, more air thru engine, more fuel. Most full throttle programs from factory jump to open loop which means a pre determined spark and fuel curve/map. Translated more fuel pressure to take up the slack or reprogram ecu with more on time for fuel injectors. or larger injectors.
On its own 90+ to 96 octane is ok but you have to remember more fuel or better fuel in the furnance you have to remove the heat somehow and that means the hotest part of the engine (exhaust valve and seat) will run even hotter when things are not set up right. Plus if its worn out at 100kmiles what are you gonna find running full throttle in your aircraft. How long will it last ? My 2 eyes see it, fix it and I know what I got. Have the tools, gauges, and everything set up right and you be ok.
Sub parts are costly, I spent almost 700.00 on new guides and valves new from subaru and I get a shop discount! however most machine shops dont have equipment to regrind valves that small and not to say that there would be much left of them after they did.
Best of luck.
NIASE Master Technician
03-30-2004, 01:56 PM
Thanks, Jonathon. Excellent post full of information.
03-30-2004, 10:12 PM
For the sake of clarity, when I talk about my 2.2, all I have is the basic engine. I removed the RAF supplied carb and installed an Airflow Performance FI system. It's all mechanical, save for the 2 fuel pumps, so I have no electronic "brain" (on the engine, smart-butts) or sensors.
04-04-2004, 07:58 AM
I have great intrest in your EJ-22 with the manual fuel injection system. Please tell us more on it and also how is the reliability on your system. Have you been troubled with any engine outs?? Approximate engine weight and type or redrive.
04-04-2004, 10:43 AM
Hi Mike, I don't really know the weight of my EJ-22, but I'm sure Don or Paul could pipe in with that. I have the AAI conversion and they had to replace my big redrive plate, as they found a crack in the RAF plate.
I've been flying with the Airflow Performance FI system for quite awhile with no problems except one that was self-induced. You can order the system with a less expensive distributor block that channels the fuel to the cylinders with 2 lines. They tee at the injectors, or a meter type system that has a line for each of the 4 cylinders. It's very similar to the ones used on Lycomings...maybe made by Bendix. These add about $400 to the system. I believe the block is less than $100.
Anyway, the less-expensive block has to be mounted lower than the injectors. The meter-type can be mounted anywhere, in any position. I mounted my block at the prop end of the engine, a few inches lower than the injectors. What I failed to take into account is that in a steep, idle-approach to landing, the engine is angled down and the block winds up rising to above the injectors, and the engine will quit. That's the only time it happened, and not always.
My solution is to lower the block further, or in my case, seeing as I haven't spent a ridiculous amount of money on her lately, I ordered the metering device. I'm in the process now of measuring the lines and should have it installed shortly. The system is all mechanical, except for the 2 electric fuel pumps, so I have no sensors or computer "brain" on mine. The unit is somewhat self-compensating for altitude, but there is a manual mixture control if you want to fine tune it. Mine is wired "full-rich," seeing as I fly in busy airspace and that's just another distraction. If I take her on another longer trip someday, I may hook it up. I don't think it would be that big a factor as to economy anyway, but maybe it would.
The nice thing about my setup is that if I need a new engine, I can remove the FI system easily along with my 2 ElectroAir ignition systems and just find a good basic engine without the FI/ignition systems. Should be considerably less expensive. Oh yes, you can use the stock Soob intake manifold. You send it in and they will rebore the injection ports to fit their injectors. All the other openings need to be plugged, which is a simple task. Here's their website: www.airflowperformance.com
Ken J. - Sandy Eggo
04-04-2004, 06:35 PM
Sounds like a good investment for simplisity for the fuel injection system. You just dont need anymore chances for a bug in the system to shut you down.
Glad you have had good luck with your EJ. I am sure I will have more questions down the road for you.
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