U.S. company wins contract for military gyroplane

[Mayfield]

After nearly 65 years, the U.S. military will again fly gyros.

I have the greatest faith that the Piasecki company will carry it off. For one thing, I believe Chuck Jarnot (program manager) is a no nonsense guy with a great track record of getting things done.

Secondly, Fred Piasecki was literally weaned on rotorcraft innovation. His father, Frank, has espoused compund flight for as long as I can remember.

I think they'll do a great job.

Jim Mayfield

[Allantat]

If successful, this could be a much needed shot in the arm for gyros.Here's one place I don't mind my tax dollars working!

[JayR]

Is there a Gyro Research Group for novel applications, suggestions, etc.

[PTKay]

Great News !!!

As you all know I am a great fan of Piasecki (my compatriotby origin).

Evetually a proffesional gyro with ducted fan (shrouded prop?)
of the size, that eventually can be easily adopted for 2-seat
recreational vehicle is on the board of real pioneer.
Also with folding mast and blades, a great technology for
my another dream - "roadable gyro" !!! :)

My another "idee fix", the diesel engine is also probably to be used
on this project following Single Fuel Battlefield startegy
of the US Army and Navy.
(See diesel motorcycles) ;)

So maybe, eventually my dream of safe, fuel saving, VSTOL gyro
will come true.

Thumbs up Mr. Piasecki !!!
(Pyasetsky, this is how you should pronouce it) ;)

[Mayfield]

Paul,

Don't get your hopes too high for the innovations you mention. I have no idea what Mr. Piasecki will do, but the pictures in the press release are probably just an artist conception.

I suspect it is more likely that they will use something like the Rotax 914 because it is already in the inventory.

I believe they will discover they need a good size H stab. On this aircraft, because of the neccessity of folding the mast, They might end up with twin tail booms.

I also would not be surprised if they end up with a conventional landing gear. Something that looks like a scaled down UH60 gear would work nicely.

My crystal ball is cloudy. I am going to watch their development with great interest. These are bright guys. I bet the product turns out to be pretty neat.

Jim Mayfield

[PW_Plack]

They may need a good bit more vertical tail than shown in the drawing, too. A twitchy gyro would be a real chore to fly by remote control!

[PTKay]

Jim,

I am not sure, but under the duct there is some kind of stone guard,
(like the one on early Bensens) which can do for additional HS. (maybe)

Regarding Rotax, you are probably right, but of course a lot is kept
secret (eventually it is DoD project), but I've heard rumours,
that Rotaxes are replaced on some Predator UAV (Warrior)
by the Thilert Centurion 1.7 diesels.
(This is at least what they claim by Thilert).

The key to the change is Single Fuel, but also extreem increase
in mission time and radius. On low revs the diesels can
suposedly stay in the air over 10 h. (wow!)

So I don't expect they will move a step back to Rotax, when
they move away from it already on other aplications.

But of course that might be just a rumour.

With Rotax a significant break-through for geared avaiaton engines
was achieved, recently followed by AV8, but also Centurion 1.7 and 4.0

This opens a way for extreemly effective and modern common rail diesels
to the aviation.

P.

[Mayfield]

I agree with you Paul.

Logistics would be much simpler if a single fuel could run everything.

The diesels you mention sound good.

Jim

[Cobra]

Jim,
Speaking of engines, I heard that you had a bunch of hours in front of a Mazda rotary- any comments? Thinking of using one in a light plane (RV-9A)...

[Tom Evans]

It sure would be exciting to see Lockheed Martin test fly over our property as they do every week with their helicopter mission. We are only 10 miles from the plant. They may however avoid it in the future, as a 250' cell tower is scheduled to be erected right at the end of our landing strip! Not that the strip has ever been used, but it's been fun to work on it and mow it. I'll just have to start over. At least it doesn't flood...

[Mayfield]

Hi Mike,

We had a little more than 2400 hours on ours before I sold the ship several years ago.

I had Atkins build me a short block and I used a carburetor and a manifold off a boat.

I used a Ross redrive with, I believe, a 2.85/1 ratio.

I did not run mine very hard. I used enough prop to limit it to ~5800 RPM so it was really loafing. On the water brake it showed an honest 160 HP though.

If I had stayed with Groen it would have been explored for the SH.

Jim
.

[KenSandyEggo]

"Pee-uh-sets'-key," with the accent on the "sets." This is how you should really pronounce it. ;)

Hey! How can I be 'KenSandyEggo" when I'm living in Charlotte in 2 weeks? KenCharlotte? KennyCarolina? CarolinaKen? :confused:

[Heron]

Now you are Closer Ken and The Other Ken is the Far Away Ken . . .
Kenrolina maybe?
Heron

[GyroRon]

I likey CarolinaKen best. Or you could go for GyroKen? :) SuperKen...? ;) Kenobiwannobi? SuperK? SpecialK...en ?

[Hognose]

He could be McKennlough?

Jim, thanks for posting this. Interesting. UAV stuff is always interesting but as a pilot I have no great interest in being replaced.

cheers

-=K=-

[Mayfield]

Hi Kevin,

You are welcome.

I believe this caught my interest for several reasons. First, of course, is my interest in gyros. Also, I have followed Piasecki for years and think his ringtail concept is intriquing and of high potential value.

In addition, the players fascinate me. If you ever do a profile piece on aviators, you might consider Chuck Jarnot.

As often is the case in the military, rank does not necessarily reflect influence. Although Chuck retired as a LtCol. Master Aviator, he was an important strategic planner in the area of Air-Mech warfare.

I believe that he was an important contributor during the planning stage of "Operation Anaconda."

Jim

[Hognose]

I dunno if I would put Anaconda on my resume if it was mine, actually. But hey, operations never go the way you expect. Once we thought we were going to roll into a bloodbath and all the bad guys just rolled over, couldn't surrender quickly enough. We ran out of storage for their weapons. Anaconda was one that went the other way; luck of the draw.

Jarnot sounds like an interesting guy. I agree that rank is not always a marker to influence. Think of Colonel Boyd, USAF. I don't think Clausewitz was any higher ranking than that.

I agree that Piasecki is an innovator. He was one of the few guys that built craft for those late-fifties Army VTOL projects that actually flew. I note that on the heavy-lift development contracts, the one thing that looks feasible is Boeing's latest update of the Piasecki tandem-rotor helicopter. With V-22s going for $71 million and climbing, there's no way that they can make a quad tiltrotor that the treasury can afford.

I was going to write up a story on the Piasecki UAVs and I see that the press release dates from July so I have to figure out whether to do it or not.

cheers

-=K=-

[Mayfield]

I agree that Anaconda was not very smooth. That might be slightly understated. But,your statement "Anaconda was one that went the other way; luck of the draw." rings true.

I also hate it when an op goes south, but it does happen.

The copy of the press release looks like TACOM released it on 22 August. I guess that is pretty stale though.

R/S

Jim

[route66]

Jim, Was Groen Brothers a player in this bid?

[Mayfield]

I don't know Brandon. I'm out of the loop now.

Jim

[PTKay]

Diesels in Predator are not just rumour:

http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/6-9655.asp


and the newest:

http://www.defense-update.com/products/w/warriorUAV.htm

So maybe the Gyro UAV will be also a diesel ;)

[Hognose]

Paul and guys,

The military in general and Army in particular has standardised on JP-8 fuel (similar to Jet A) for all aircraft and ground vehicles. Therefore the Army is very interested in anything that can run JP-8, more than running on avgas. The last airplane the Army had that ran on Avgas was the U-6 Beaver in the sixties, and the last vehicle probably the M880 series pickup trucks, replaced in the 1980s.

cheers

-=K=-

[PTKay]

The policy is called "Single Fuel Battlefield".

They even contracted diesel motorbikes. :)

Here some read:

http://motorcyclecity.com/Military-bikes/M1030Diesel-Kawasaki.htm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-11/cu-fdm110304.php

And it's in US, if you ask, not those diesel crazy Europeans
with their fuel taxes... ;)

Such a light motorbike diesel ready for a gyro ?

[Heron]

Maybe this one?
www.ramphosusa.com
Heron

[PTKay]

Have seen it before...
Very interesting.
The modern diesel have a problem with revs.
But since Rotax with its 91x series created a breakthrough
for geared engines (accepted here anyway with Sub engines)
I see a bright future...

[gerimactric]

I can't help wondering if the Groen Hawk will be cerificated in our lifetime? Is it $$; or are there still unresolved engineering problems?

[greeny]

The military in general and Army in particular has standardised on JP-8 fuel (similar to Jet A) for all aircraft and ground vehicles. Therefore the Army is very interested in anything that can run JP-8, more than running on avgas ...

There has been a rumor in the German ultralight scene about Hirth developing a two stroke direct injection engine running on kerosene (some details under www.aati.com.au/hirth/forum/default.asp).
When I heard that for the first time, I thought, who the heck could care for such a stinker? Yet, after seeing your message, it's pretty obvious: this is a project for the German Bundeswehr.
And it could be good news for us too: DI means very good fuel efficiency. Far less loss than the average 2 stroke. And kerosene/diesel/fuel oil is cheap and - unlike unleaded gas - you get it everywhere.

Peter

[PTKay]

Diesel for a two-stroke has an additional advantage.
It has (in oposit to Avgas) certain lubricating capacity.

BTW.: the two aviation diesels developed from scratch recently
(not like Centurion being a mod car engine) are two sroke,
direct injection.

DeltaHawk and Wilksch...

Both not certified yet, but both, IMHO, on their way up.

Do some googling..

[PTKay]

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/uav-04zf.html

[Hognose]

There is also SMA diesel certified in Europe and USA. It's made in France.

Cirrus was going to make a plane with it but could not get it to cold-start reliably. (The plane was to be called the SR21Tdi). They still have a plane in France at the engine manufacturers, tinkering with it. The SMA engine is pretty much a straight replacement for a large continental or lycoming. It is four-stroke, horizontally opposed, four cylinders.

cheers

-=K=-

[gyroplanes]

I got the word that Piasecki is going to use a Barnett 540 coupe for their UAV gyro. I also read on my favorite news source ANN, that Sikorsky has a UAV helo flying powered by a Subaru 6 cylinder.

[GyroRon]

I had a Kawasaki 3 seat jet ski - a 1999 model I think - and it had a 3 cylinder two stroke engine with direct fuel injection. It got amazing gas milage for a 2 stroke.... It would use almost half the fuel the Big 3 cylinder Yamaha jet ski used, the yamaha had carbs. It also started instantly cold or hot and the throttle response was very crisp. It would be nice to see this on future Rotax 2 strokes.