PRA Membership Drive

[barnstorm2]

To help bring PRA membership back up to previous numbers ( and beyond! ) we proudly announce:

The PRA membership drive contest!!

The prizes for the contest will continue to grow as donations are made.

Current prize status will be posted here and on the PRA Chapter 34 web site:

www.chapter34.com

--------------------------------------
Rules:
Winners of First and Second prize must sign up at least 5 or more members on or before October 1, 2004.

First place = 75% of drive pot

Second place = 25% of drive pot

Runners up will receive other donated items as available.

Pot donators will be listed on this forum and the PRA34 web site.

Winner(s) will be announced Saturday October 16, 2004

Applicants must submit names and PRA member numbers of recruits to prachapter34@yahoo.com no later than October 9, 2004

Renewals do not count.

[Heron]

Tell me what is so great about been a PRA member and I will renew . . .
I am a member in two Gyro Clubs and it is great, I miss going to Sunstate meetings, but I know they are doing something for the gyro comunity.
PRA is by far the worst case of how not to run an association and they give new meanings to the words amateur and experimental.
And the more I know about their dealings the more I do not like it!
Heron :-

[barnstorm2]

Current 'POT' status ( donations ) as of March 26, 2004

Donations for 1st and 2ond Place Prize:

Tim OConnor $100

Harry Sieckmann $100

Rotarywing Forum 2- T-Shirts


Donations for Runners Up:

[barnstorm2]

Heron,

I do not know specificly what the PRA has done to upset you.

What I can say is that membership gives you a vote in who functions as PRA leadership and I feel we need representation as an avaition community.

There is a PRA thread elsewhere for discussing PRA issues, I was hopeing to use this one for the drive updates.

I would like to hear that you have or will renew your membership. Unfortunatly for contest counting renewals dont count just new members.

[barnstorm2]

In order to 'get the word out' about the Membership Drive we will need to get mention in Norms forum if and when it comes back up and the PRA magazine.

Any other ideas for getting the word out?

[Dean_Dolph]

Why not use the PRA Chapter Coordinator to help promote this? I know a new person took responsibility last year but don't know what has been done so far and my short memory won't bring up his name. I do recall he resides in the Northwest.

[barnstorm2]

Thank you Dean,

I will get out my copy of Rotorcraft and look into it.

Thanks!

[barnstorm2]

Dean,

I looked it up the name in the last Rotorcraft is Richard 'Dick' Moore.

No email address is given on pra.org.

I will compose an open letter to the PRA and vendors and post a draft here for everyone to critique'.

[barnstorm2]

I need everyone 2 cents!

Todd I we will also need your permission on this as well. Please help.


Here is my 1st draft for a letter to send out:

Dear PRA / Rotorcraft Vendor

I am proud to announce that the members of www.rotaryforum.com have initiated a PRA membership drive contest.

If successful, we hope to begin raising PRA membership numbers back to and above previous numbers.

As we all know PRA membership is critical in countless ways to our sport.

Please visit http://www.prachapter34.com/Member%20Drive.htm for details on the drive contest.

The reason I am writing to you is to ask for your support.

How can you support the drive? Donations of discounts, coupons, T-shirts, stickers, product and of course cash will increase the motivation for the contest. There is a first and second place cash winner plus we hope to have a number of runner up positions. The number of runner up positions will depend heavily on additional prize donations.

All donors will be listed in the advertising for the drive. If you donate please let me know if I can include your logo on the drive web page and flyers.

If you are unable to donate please pass the word about our efforts.

Thank you!

-Tim O’Connor and the Rotaryforum Community.

[barnstorm2]

The letter to the PRA board and Rotorcraft Mag editor would include:


We would also like to request this drive be announced in ROTORCRAFT magazine. We do not have the budget to run an ad so we would be looking for this space to be donated.

[Kevin_Richey]

Tim:

If you want to talk with Dick Moore (past chapter president of PRA Chapter 73), his cell phone number (which is paid for by the chapter & dedicated to the Chapter Coordinator position and PRA purposes) and his email info is located at the PRA Chapter 73 website at:

www.pra73.net

Click on the "members" tab to locate it.

Dean was right...Dick lives in McMinnville, Oregon.

[Heron]

I have been to many airports and they all have good to decent facilities (FBO?)
Just here in the area (75 miles around Fort Worth) you can count 41 airports (I did).
There are posters and brochures at this places and not one about gyros, how about we change that?
Advertise our magazine (here I go including myself) it could bring subscribers and more members in the future.
I would love to get the magazine without been a member . . .til thing change and I apply again.
Will I have teh same number of that is going to be another deal?
Heron

[barnstorm2]

There was a good brochure that was uploaded to the old forum. I think I have the file around here somewhere. I will post it if I find it.

I also made a larger expanded brochure but 2 issues:

1. It is in pagemaker format

2. I don't have written permission on all of the photos I used. I just grabbed some off the web. I only made it to give to friends not commerical advertisement.

If anyone is intrested in the files let me know and I will make them available.

Another good thing to place around airport pilot lounge are old issues of ROTORCRAFT. It is a great magazine and I think you can still buy a box of old issues cheap. I would like to have at least one copy of the old issues for myself but extras are great things to pass around.

[ToddP]

Tim,

The letter looks great, you have my endorsement for the forum.

Great Work!

Todd

[barnstorm2]

Thanks!

I'll start sending it out this week.

[wheacock]

Hi Tim.
You might mention in your letter the money you are putting up. This shows your earnest intent...

Also what about renewals that are maybe a few years old?
Many chapters have memebership lists they could go down and possibly pick up a few here and there.

This is a great effort. I believe that this can grow wheels and really do something positive for the PRA.

For those that keep growling about the PRA, see the PRA Problems thread...
Bill

[barnstorm2]

Thank you Bill,

My name and Harry Sieckmann's are on the web page.

Thank you for brining up the renewals. I gave this some thought and I figgured for purposes of a contest it would be difficult to count them.

If they have not already done so, or are not allready planning on doing so.. I think the PRA should send out a mailing to all the non-renewing members and make them get back on board special offer.

[Harry_S.]

Thank you, Tim.

Hey Bill, wanna get on board and contribute? We appreciate all we can get.

[barnstorm2]

Hey Everyone!

Great news. I just opened an e-mail from the editor of Rotorcraft Magazine.

It states that we can count on Rotorcraft to publish our drive in the next issue of Rotorcraft.

There may be other news as well, we are going to discuss the drive this weekend.

Rotaryforum Rocks!!

[barnstorm2]

Update.

Things are progressing with the drive. At B-Days a number of people told me they would be sending prize donations.

Kaman Helicopters sent us a poster. It will be going to one of the runner-ups.

[Rotornut]

We always sign up members for PRA at BD Days and sign them up for Sunstate. I look at it like this, every little bit helps. Not in it to raise the money for our club, lots out there smaller than us and needing it more, so get together with other members and sign them up to win.

Help yourselves by promoting your Chapter and the PRA all at One Time. Not as hard as I thought years ago. Show them a Magazine they will get, how we have many fly-ins a year in different parts of the world, and encourage them to come to at least two or three a year with in reason for them.

Go to all Aviation Web Sites use their Calendar of Events to post on. Hand out flyers for pilots to deliver and post in airports. Get members to help do a Breakfast fly-in and advertise it then, or a old fashion Hamburger / Hot Dog cook out chips, soda etc, get donations sign up new people show the road to PRA.

It's up to us as Members to Spread the Word, and encourage others to give it a try. Thats all we can ask. I figure after a year with PRA if they dont want to renew, there must be more to know, so ask, why not!

MJ :)

[ben]

does the pra have a membership list that they put out??? thanks ben

[Gary_in_Orygun]

I forget which issue of the Rotorcraft magazine, but PRA does print the complete membership list once a year.

[ben]

thanks gary,
was station at mt.hebo 689 radar site, just outside tillamuck orygun ha ha ha nice country.

[automan1223]

You have to wonder why 4 YES 4 PRA board members have resigned from the PRA ??? Why should we or you worry about getting more members when long time members, honorable members, BOARD MEMBERS are stepping down and saying thanks, no thanks.

I dont know all the reasons but one reason that really strikes me is did you know ?

There are 2 PRA Boards .

One that gets voted on. "our board"

and a "shadow" board. (one that has no official vote)


Politics as usual.

and no I am not making this up.

I can guess which one has the real control of things.


Jonathan

[barnstorm2]

Jonathan,

There is another thead that has been started for that topic called 'PRA Issues' so I wont make a long answer here.

Good board, bad board, no board there is never going to be one that is perfect or makes everyone happy or does things they each person thinks things should be done. As you said "Politics as usual".

The board is simply not the point.

The PRA is the point.

If gyros are going to thrive and grow rather than stagnate and fade away we must bring new members into the PRA. New talent new people will bring about changes naturally, I have seen it in many growing successful orgainzations before.

Trikes, PPGs, PPCs groups are growing like wildfire yet gyros are superior in so many ways we should be growing just as fast if not faster.

If you want to change things I suggest rather than tearing apart the best thing the gyro community has going for it you get a bunch of new life PRA members signed up and vote in a board that will do what you think needs done.

There is a 'sale' on now and it is easyer and cheapter than ever to become a life-PRA member.

If the board is not doing something you think needs done just do it yourself. I think the PRA needed a membership drive so that is what I and others have done. It was not a board initated drive.

[gyroblackwell]

You should really get your fact straight BEFORE blurting them out on the forum.

there are actually 3 boards. 1 for the PRA, 1 for the mentone airport, and it's functions, and 1 for the museum at mentone.

There is no SHADOW board, as you like to put it. The Airport board is separate from the PRA-board for a reason. (legal stuff)

I -for one- prefer that these are kept seperate. Seems some ex-board members had the idea that they could get the Mentone airport shut down, sold off, and move the whole thing a little closer to themselves.

just because more flying takes place in the southern states, does not mean that there is not any activity going on up here. WE are hard at work developing new concept machines, and working hard to better the exisiting designs.

So if you want to start throwing stones .... just be prepared to defend your statements with TRUE hard FACTS .... not what some disgruntled individual wants to feed you ... and this forum!

Tim

[barnstorm2]

Todd,

Is it possible to move these posts to the PRA Issues Thread?


More PRA Equals =

= Cheapter Parts

= Cheaper gyros

= Better gyro designs

= More gyro designs

= Friendler aiports

= insurance

= Safer machines

= Better legal representation

= Better protection from dumb FAA regs

= More Trainers

= More Students

= More fun and more

Less PRA members?

= The eventual end of our hobby as a viable pastime for sport pilots and many of the activities and privileges we now enjoy.

Please understand that I don't see anything wrong with questioning the actions of ANY board but that does not validate diswading PRA membership nor is this the proper thread to do so in.

[MikeLindsay]

After reading what automan1223 posted and the posts that followed, it looks like a nerve was struck. If I remember correctly, several years ago...the PRA moved from the state of La to its current location and there were questions about buying an airport there.
Now; if the BOD is elected by the membership and the PRA is an organization comprised of dues paying members and this organization owns the airport at Mentone... What is wrong with asking questions about:
1) The airport at Mentone
2) any of the PRA Boards and their actions
3) reasons for having different boards
4) Why are the "other Boards" not elected by the membership
5) explain/lay out the "legal" reasoning for seperate Boards

These questions in no way are attacking the membership drive(it is very much needed) and an "OPEN" organization with a clear mission and no hint of a hidden agenda would seem to attract more members.
Mike Lindsay, Johnson City, TN.

[Rotornut]

Agree. MJ :)

[MikeLindsay]

Where is the PRA issues thread ? I would have posted the above post there, but could not find it.

[Dean_Dolph]

Todd, if you are able to move parts of this thread then it might make sense to create a PRA Issues Forum.

The fact that not everyone that visits here are PRA members doesn't mean they are not affected by PRA issues. And this won't be the last time something comes up!

[wheacock]

Jonathan struck a nerve with me. This is not the first time he’s thrown out misleading or untrue information about the PRA. And this is precisely the kind of thing that continues to fragment the efforts of people like Tim and Harry and what they are trying to accomplish.

I’m sure these former board members have their reasons for stepping down, But there are always two sides.
I respect each one of those individuals because they tried to make a difference.
In my opinion, Jonathan hears one side and forms his opinion. That’s fine with me, but when he seeks to persuade others of some diabolical PRA plot I’m here to tell you that it’s hogwash. And I won’t be a silent witness to his folly.
The PRA needs help, and increasing the membership is fundamental…

[donshoebridge]

"The PRA needs help, and increasing the membership is fundamental…"

Here! Here!

[Rotornut]

We need to Support and Unite, and go from there. Clubs need to support each other as ROC and Sunstate does and trys to do. We are all a Group, Organization, and we are what makes us a Unit. Even if you only make two or three different fly-ins a year, you help others promote. I myself like to attend fly-ins, not so much host them.

I only joined PRA in 1995, but lots have come and gone, and lots has been accomplished, like voting, and standing up for Members. We do need more say just not sure how to go about it. Of course I just Say IT. Gets me in hot water.

My trust is still in the Board, Not happy about Maxie, Jamie, Dan, Dave, but I cannot speak for them, or the Whys. I have been informed of some and still trying to find more answers myself.

To me to be a Life Member is worth it but, as of now I cannot fork over the $. As Richard is in turmoil and wont Commit. Me I am Committed, but have no say, as many others in the Gyro Family.

My Trust is in Gary, and Others, to make those decisions for the PRA as a Whole. I cannot conceive that Gary would do anything to break up PRA or to run it in the ground. I think we all need to Focus on getting PRA more members and Growing.

My 1/2 cent worth. and only mine. MJ :)

[automan1223]

I did not want to appear to be shooting first. I dont wish to make any enemies And I agree with some previous posts that basically say the pra is the only thing rotorcraft folks have. This is true.

<<<Jonathan struck a nerve with me. This is not the first time he’s thrown out misleading or untrue information about the PRA.>>>


Please cite a specific example where I have said something untrue or misleading about the PRA. Where does this come from ??? I think you have me mixed up with somebody else buddy.




Overall Norms old forum and some pra members are responsible for helping me with my gyro endeavor. Thats a good thing. I think we can all agree on that. I have been a member since 1998. Gyros have been around for 50 years. You would think that the PRA is on the same page, or even the same book but after reading 6 years worth of Rotorcraft Mag articles I can see that they aren't. There are 2 or more sides to every story. So.

Why all the hush hush and no questions to be asked ? I am a paying member.

You gonna shout me down ??? cause you dont agree with something I said ??


The 4 PRA board members that stepped down are honorable and good men.

I will come fist to fist with you if you say otherwise.

Jamie Bodie
Dave Dewinter
Dan Leslie
Maxie Wildes.

anyone who knows them knows they are some of the best in the PRA.

I am quick to see a conspriacy in a lot of things but I fail to see why only 1 or 2 issues would cause 4 LIFE members to fly the coup. There is a BIG something or a LOT of somethings to cause that.


Maybe you can stick your head between your legs and smell the roses but to me it stinks. I admit I do not know the whole story. I will get it face to face though. I will look all in the eye and know who is telling the truth. I can tell you now 4 of my friends will not up and quit over chicken ****.


2 or 3 boards. ok, so why not a vote for those boards ??? Regular PRA or LIFE members are not good enough ??? is that what you are saying ?

Shadow board or otherwise. NO VOTE means its a closed club and the rest is all white wash. :Legal reasons are a ruse to me. VOTE !
I think that will get to the root of the issue.

Sure go ahead, grow the PRA, everything will be hunky dory. There are complex and serious issues that go to the root as to why the rotorcraft community is the smallest segment of experimental aviation. I wont get into all the issues here. If you stick around long enough you will realize some of the bigger issues. Gyros have to be in your blood first of all.


I just wish I belonged to a group that did NOT have the typical political b.s going on. There is too much of that everywhere else.

Sincerely
Jonathan Weis
Oriental NC.

[automan1223]

Let me apologize to those who started this thread. I did not want to dampen your spirits on any membership drive. I felt like you did many years ago.

Go out spread the good word about gyros, the meaning of what it is to be a rotornut. I can tell you I have tried. I have been to public events and parades and other functions. My reception has been cool with the flying community, and even cooler with the general public. Very mean and worrisome things have been said to my better half regarding my hobby. Even worse are the ones that pump you for all the information regarding gyros (make you think you might have a serious enthuiast) and then go behind your back and plant a knife in it saying what a fool you are to their buddies.


So I can say go out, make fliers. Pump your machine in the big parade. Put it on display in front of where you work. Give out your old issues of Rotorcraft to who ever you think might have a dream. Hand out videos and dvd's like I have for the past 4 years. But reality is such...... I am living in a dead county anyway so I guess I should not expect much but it does hurt.

Jonathan

[donshoebridge]

Jonathan,

No need to apologize because as with anyone else on this forum, if people don't like what you a saying, they'll just ignore you.

However, let me add this... Because of Tim Blackwell's close proximity to Mentone (ie, Pam, Glenn, whoever), and with my own close contact with them for the past couple of years since I've lived here in Indiana, and my trip to ROC in 2003, I have only heard bitching about 3 specific topics - horizontal stabs, the location of the annual convention, and the mandatory attendance of the board members to the convention.

With horizontals, we all could go on forever about those and if the PRA should get involved in some form of enforcement. But that's not their function, and nor should it be! The FAA, EAA, and the PRA should all have the same stance concerning aircraft configurations - you can not dictate the design of an experimental aircraft!

As for the location of the annual convention, the PRA has offered it up to anyone who wants to take on the challenge to do it somewhere else, like Texas for example. But that same problem is going to happen - People up north are not going to make the trip because of time and money. I'd rather see several conventions - 1 at Mentone in the summer, 1 in the south in the spring (Bensen Days), 1 in fall (ROC maybe), and 1 in Arizona (or somewhere like El Mirage) in the winter.

As for the mandatory attendance of the board members, that's a little much! The PRA should have a separate, annual board meeting in the middle of the country. Or change it's location each year. No flying, just meeting. Or do it online.

What I've heard about the PRA from the previously mentioned parties is that Mentone is too far away from where the majority of the gyro flying is - down south where the weather is better. Now I'm sure there are other issues as well that I'm not privy to, but based on the passion of this topic (moving the convention), I don't believe there is anything else under the surface.

Don

[wheacock]

Hi Jonathan,
I apologize for inflaming the discussion about the PRA.

You are a great asset to the Gyro community. I respect that.
If you run for the board, You WILL get my vote.

However, on this topic, your negativism is so very detrimental to the community.
You justify it in the name of “asking questions”
There is a time and place for doing that, but in my opinion, it’s not in middle Tim and Harry’s effort.
There is much that could be changed in the PRA, but you are actively making it worse in my opinion. I’ll try my best to counter that
As I said in my post, I have great respect for the board members that stepped down.
I know two of them personally, I’m flying another ones design.
I also know many of their issues, and I'm not minimizing them.
Have you ever called any of the other board members to get their side?

I wish this group didn’t have all the political junk either, but they all do. I belong to EAA, AOPA as well.
The way we change these things is by moving forward, be optimistic and bring the group forward.

As to previous issues…
On Norm’s forum you mentioned that Gary Goldsberry had an ulterior motive for being lenient on centerline thrust because he was a Magni dealer. I called you on it then, and ask you to correct this with facts, you ignored it. You were content to let the rumor live.
If this was not you, my sincerest apology
I didn’t appreciate the fist to fist comment, as it seemed a veiled threat, but that’s OK. I’m a Christian and as such, you will never have to resort to that with me.
I wish you well and I hope we can mutually agree to disagree in a respectful way.

Sincerely,
Bill Heacock

[automan1223]

Well I too will try and stir up some interest this spring. But like they say if you keep doing the same thing you will get the same results. So I dont know what to expect. Sometimes people can surprise you. Like I said I will get the full story in time but I know that there has to be a lot to have 4 members step down in such a short period of time.

Norms forum is down, its a moot point. However to address:

<<<On Norm’s forum you mentioned that Gary Goldsberry had an ulterior motive for being lenient on centerline thrust because he was a Magni dealer. I called you on it then, and ask you to correct this with facts, you ignored it. You were content to let the rumor live.>>>>


I still stand by my skeptism about having our PRA President, who is no doubt a very skilled and professional person, go and endorse a machine that is not everything that we have been striving to get.MY MAIN PROBLEM. Because when new guys come into this they will no doubt think "gee I can get away with this because the PRA president flys this machine, and so what if its not spot on" I will go and build a bensen, its close enough. And then poof, we read about a bunch of potted plants.

The money issue is second (cost of machine) . The fact that our president has his finger in the till is 3rd. Everyone who flys the magni says it flys great. Well then either everyone who is espousing clt and hs is smoking dope cause its not important or flash and figures won out.

I compare it to driving a car. Some cars you can drive hands off if they are a good design and set up right. Then there are other cars that require 110% of your attention or you are off the road no matter what.

Sincerely
Jonathan Weis

[Udi]

I am not a lawyer, but as a board member in another organization I know a thing or two about what a board of directors can and cannot do. The members of the board (Directors), as a group, can change anything they want about the PRA. This includes policy (i.e. money, horizontals, etc), procedures (elections, attendance, etc), and even the by-laws themselves. The board has to vote on any motion that is brought to the floor by a board member. Obviously, it takes a majority to pass a motion.

As a PRA member you are entitled to receive a copy of the PRA by-laws. You are also entitled to receive a copy of minutes of the PRA board meetings. The Directors and the president are elected by PRA members so, as long as we want to be part of this organization, we have to accept all the decisions passed by our elected officials.

I don't know why the said 4 board members decided to quit, but quitting did not serve the people who voted them into office very well! As a board member it is your duty to represent the people who voted for you, even if you are part of the minority. Nobody said being a Director is suppose to be fun – it is a mission!

If the majority of the membership thinks that the PRA does not serve them well, they can change that through elections. I am new to the PRA, and in the last elections I didn't vote because I didn't know any of the candidates. My only exposure to the gyroplane "community" is through Rotorcraft magazine, and these forums. There is next to no gyroplane activity in my area.

I don't know what percentage of the PRA membership is visiting these boards, but 100% of them read Rotorcraft magazine. If anyone is serious about wanting to change the way the PRA is operating I suggest they start writing articles and letters to Rotorcraft, and posting on these boards.

The PRA is, and always will be, what the membership makes it.

Udi-

p.s. Jonathan – Gary is not the distributor of Magni, Greg Gremminger is. And the Magni is a very stable gyroplane, even though it has a slightly high thrust line no tall tail. They simply go a different way about balancing the moments.

[barnstorm2]

Automan,

I am not sure what planet you are getting your information from :confused: but the PRA president is no gyroplane dealer.

Even if he were the two first and founding presidents were dealers and owners of gyroplane companies Bensen and Brock.

Best get your facts straight before throwing around accusations of that caliber! :mad:

[automan1223]

My meds have worn off this week with the warmer temps. :)

Planet ZINGO was attacked by terrorist forces and stole all of our special pink and green pills that keep us on an even keel. We have had to take the blue and red dotted pills but they keep getting stuck in the back of my throat and they just end up making the milk taste funny.

You are absolutely correct and I dont have anything straight this week. I got too many names to keep track of and


I appologize for getting everyone mixed up. Glen, Gary, Greg, Ron, Rod, Ronnie, I cant keep anyone straight. Whats my name ? I plead insanity, I was possssesssed.....


However our president has been luke warm to endorsing a standard, from what I have read over the years. Thats just my opinion.

Maybe this weekend I can get a few guys interested in signing up.

Jonathan

[barnstorm2]

That's more positive :D If you get the green pills back save a few for me ;)

[Dean_Dolph]

I wish I had boiler plated my past responses to the issues that have been brought up, AGAIN, then I could just paste it here and save myself some time and trouble. So, one more time, AGAIN.

First the issue with the Mentone Airport and holding the convention there every year. It seems that the EAA has done very well by always having their big event at Oshkosh with regional events at other locations around the U.S. I don't see why a formula that works for them isn't good enough for the PRA. Along with Mentone there is Bensen Days in the Spring in Florida, the Ken Brock Freedom Fly-In in September in California, Rotors Over Carolina in October and I know there is another one that I can't think of the name of in the Pacific Northwest. In my opinion the PRA major events are setup and scheduled just fine, thank you. I have managed to attend three of these, sometimes in the same year, and so far I find that they all have a different flavor. I hope one day to experience the others.

The PRA was fortunate in '91 when the scheduled convention in Hearne, TX. was cancelled on short notice (that’s another story) and they were bailed out by the people at Brookville. Now that the PRA owns an airport there is no danger of not having a place to hold the Convention and insurance issues aren't an issue. Oh yeah, it is my understanding that in a couple of years the Airport will be paid for. As far as the Airport being too far away from the members, a former editor of the PRA magazine reported that demographics a couple of years ago showed that Mentone was almost exactly in the center of the U.S. membership population.

The issue of moving the Convention around every year sounds good but the PRA can't afford to have the fiscal fiasco that occurred in Texas in 2001. The Convention should be expected to be a money maker for the PRA. The regional events do not benefit the PRA money wise as far as I know.

Those that ask for the Convention deserve everything they get! Having participated with PRA Chapter 62 in hosting the Convention in '90 at Hearne, TX., I'm here to tell you that it is a ton of work to organize, setup, manage, teardown and cleanup. Mary Jane has made references to the work at Bensen Days and unless you have been involved you have no idea just how much work is involved. I thank everyone at Mentone and the other regionals who put forth the effort that allows me to enjoy the event. I do think it is easier, if the events are hosted in the same place, by the same experienced people all the time. I just wish there was some way to relieve those people from the burden every year.

Now lets get to the rule that says that a board member can't miss more than so many meetings a year. The board members know what the rule is when they are nominated. When they accept the nomination then it is assumed by the voters they have agreed to make the meetings.

Now that the PRA members decide who serves on the board, it would be very frustrating to me if I campaigned and voted for a board member who lost his seat on the board because he didn't make the meetings or resigned before his term was up. I have met and talked to most, if not all, of the board members and found that I personally liked all of them. I didn't agree with some of their views but then I don't agree with all the views of our various elected government officials either. Even the ones I voted for. As far as I know there isn't an over abundance of volunteers to serve on the board. And with the target shooting that takes place from the members it is understandable.

The reference to shadow boards, as far as I know, has no merit and if anyone has specific info that says different then skip the innuendo and let us know the details.

I have been a PRA member since 1967 and a life member for, I think, five years. Give me a break, at my age I'm lucky to find my way home after a fly-in! So, a word to the wise, if you really like gyros and find that after a couple of years as a PRA member that you can't see a time when you won't have a interest then I suggest floating a loan and buying a life membership. If I had done that I would have saved a ton of money.

[jamiebodie]

Tim you are either sorely misguided or you are a fool, I will opt for the sorely misguided option.

In an ealier post you wrote:
You should really get your fact straight BEFORE blurting them out on the forum.

there are actually 3 boards. 1 for the PRA, 1 for the mentone airport, and it's functions, and 1 for the museum at mentone.




There is no SHADOW board, as you like to put it. The Airport board is separate from the PRA-board for a reason. (legal stuff)



I -for one- prefer that these are kept seperate. Seems some ex-board members had the idea that they could get the Mentone airport shut down, sold off, and move the whole thing a little closer to themselves.

just because more flying takes place in the southern states, does not mean that there is not any activity going on up here. WE are hard at work developing new concept machines, and working hard to better the exisiting designs.

So if you want to start throwing stones .... just be prepared to defend your statements with TRUE hard FACTS .... not what some disgruntled individual wants to feed you ... and this forum!

Tim

Alright Tim let's take this point by point.

You said: You should really get your fact straight BEFORE blurting them out on the forum. Tim I am afraid it is you that does not have his facts straight. You my friend are either the pot or the kettle. Let's move on and see what I am talking about.

there are actually 3 boards. 1 for the PRA, 1 for the mentone airport, and it's functions, and 1 for the museum at mentone.

As far as I know there are only 2 BOD's. The PRA and the airport, the museum is included with the airport. Now if the PRA, the people, own the airport then shouldn't the PRA BOD's that are elected by the people oversee ALL of the PRA's assets? BTW, how does one get on the airport BOD if the membership doesn't vote them in? I don't mind having two BOD's. However, the BOD that the people elect to run the PRA should govern (or at least have say so) in ALL of the PRA's assets and dealings. Since the airport BOD is not under the elected PRA BOD, they airport BOD can do whatever they want with the airport regardless of the wishes of the PRA members. Do I think they will do that? No, I sure don't but why have it set up that way? Next point.

I -for one- prefer that these are kept seperate. Seems some ex-board members had the idea that they could get the Mentone airport shut down, sold off, and move the whole thing a little closer to themselves.

Not one of the board members who stepped down wanted to move the PRA or sell the airport. As a matter of fact I have never spoken with anyone who wanted to move the PRA headquarters, except maybe Buck B. IF YOU BELIEVE WE WANTED TO MOVE THE AIRPORT AND HQ YOU ARE BOTH A SUCKER AND A FOOL!

So if you want to start throwing stones .... just be prepared to defend your statements with TRUE hard FACTS .... not what some disgruntled individual wants to feed you ... and this forum!

Amen, perhaps you should reread this yourself because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Most of you guys know the people who stepped down, if you want to know why take the time to call them or catch them at a fly in and ask them. BTW, Tim I challenge you to back up your statement about moving the PRA with one true, hard fact, or one person who ever heard any of us discussing this idea.

I am going back to my status of being too busy to deal with much on the forums right now and ya'll can say what you like.

BTW, this country and most properly run organizations were built on the concept of QUESTION AUTHORITY, not to start trouble but to keep honest people honest, I suggest that you don't forget this and do it often.

Peace out,

Ike - I mean Jamie

[MikeLindsay]

Well said. Thank you for addressing the statements.
It is my understanding that the reason for a Board Of Directors and Bylaws, is so an organization is run by rules.

These questions have nothing to do with "just politics" or "politics as usual"(these phrases tend to be thrown about to deflect attention from the issues) and should be answered and explained fully by those in charge of the PRA, Mentone Airport Board and any other entity within the organization if it were to exist.

An organization such as the PRA is much better off operating with nothing hidden from its members.

I posted a few simple questions on page 2 of this thread that should be addressed.

[jamiebodie]

Those are good questions Mike, they wouldn't answer them for Maxie and myself but I would recommend that you give it a try. BTW, one should not only look to the BOD members who have stepped down, but also to those who are refusing to run again. It seems that most of my time and effort as a board member was spent either convincing the BOD that we had to follow the by-laws or trying to get answers to my simple questions. Do you know it took me about 3 months of steady trying to get the official results of the last election? Since two BOD members stepped down at Bensen Days I wonder if the BOD will follow their by-laws and replace them for the remainder of their term. Their term is almost up, however the by-laws should be followed to the letter everytime. The board should keep it's actions in the "light" so that no one would question what is going on. The board is run like a "we trust Gary" society. Now don't get me wrong, I trust Gary G and I think he has good intentions for the PRA, but I will not follow anyone blindly.

Here is an excerpt from the PRA website by-laws about how BOD members should be replaced, you make the call.

BOARD OF DIRECTORS
The powers, business and property of the Corporation shall be exercised, conducted and controlled by a Board of Directors not less than five, nor more than eleven members.

Directors shall be divided into three alternating classes each of which serve a three-year term.

Results of the election for the expiring class of Director positions (conducted in accordance with Article X) shall be announced by the presiding officer at The Annual meeting of all Life members during the International Convention.

The Directors shall elect the officers who serve a one-year term.
Office of the President. This person must have had three years experience on the Board before being eligible for election to this office

In case of a vacancy to the Board, the remaining Directors shall fill such vacancy by appointment of the first "Runner-up" from the latest election. If three or more vacancies occur at any one time, they shall be filled by vote of the remaining Directors at a meeting called. Vacancies are filled for the remainder of the term of class.

Regular meetings of the Board of Directors shall be called at any one time and place determined by the President.

Special meetings of the Board of Directors shall be called at any time on the order of the President or on the order of three Directors.

The President is the contact officer when a Special Meeting is ordered by the Directors.

Notice of special meetings of the Board of Directors stating time and in general terms, the purpose, shall be mailed or personally given to Directors not later than twenty-one days before the day appointed for the meeting by the President. If all Directors shall be present at any meeting, any business may be transacted without previous notice.

A majority of Directors shall constitute a quorum on the Board at all meetings and the affirmative vote of a majority shall be necessary to pass any resolution or authorize any act of the Corporation.
Each member of the Board of Directors shall serve as such Director without compensation.

The Board of Directors shall cause to be kept a complete record of all it's acts and proceedings of its meetings.

The Board of Directors shall have the power and authority to promulgate and enforce all rules and regulations pertaining to the use and operation of Corporation property and to do and perform, or cause to be done and performed, any and every act, which the Corporation may lawfully do and perform.

To remain eligible to serve on the Board of Directors, each member thereof must attend 50% of the regular meetings of the Directors during each calendar year.

Retiring Directors who were performing duties that are ongoing must attend the last Annual Board Meeting to ensure that the task is completed or passed on, with all pertinent information, to his successor.

Jamie

[jamiebodie]

Oh yeah, if the rumors I heard are true the by-laws will be changing soon. I heard that one does not have to be a life member to serve on the BOD and longer, just have 5 years current membership in the PRA and that the cost of a lifemembership has been dropped to $400. That is a a steal. Again, I am not sure if either of these are 100% true, but they are worth looking into. I also don't know when the nomination period ends for this years election. Did everyone know that it had been extended?

Jamie

[Rotornut]

Gary about the change in becoming a board member, and he confirmed it. You only need to be a member of PRA for 5yrs, then you can put your name in the hat for running. The price for lifetime membership has been lowered for a short term, I believe after the convention in July it will go back up, but dont quote me on that.

MJ

[Thumpernator]

Ok, I guess it's time to set some records straight.

First of all, Jonathan, Gary G. does NOT have his hand in the pot. If that's referring to Gary using PRA funds for his own use, that's so far off it's pitiful. Gary puts a lot of his OWN money into PRA for various projects. Gary just doesn't broadcast it. You may not like some of the Officers, but I got to know them pretty well, and they all Love and Live for the PRA. Like Dean said, you may not like all their views, but they all act in what they believe is the best interest in PRA.

As to how and why I'm no longer a Director, let me explain (again). I missed Bensen Days 2003 because it was moved back a couple of weeks into March. My vacation period (at work) runs from April 1 through March 31. We bid our vacations every March for the following year. They didn't have the dates until AFTER we bid our vacations, so, by the time March rolled around, I was out of vacation time until April 1st. So that's one meeting I missed.

I missed the Mentone meeting of last year because of a Family health issue that is PRIVATE, but was necessary. So I missed two meetings in the same year and as per the By-Laws, my position was filled by the runner-up in the last Election.

I DO NOT have a problem with going with the rules. In all the PRA meetings and discussions via the Internet, I had always stressed the need to go by the rules in place, NO EXCEPTIONS! The rule is there for a reason. Anyone that can't figure out that 'reason' should not even bother to vote.

Now, should that rule be changed? That's a matter of opinion and if anyone would like to see it changed, they should contact the Directors and let them know their views. There are Pro's and Con's to every issue. This one is no exception. Do I want to see it changed? No, not entirely. I think the President, or the Board on a whole, should be able to excuse an absense for 'due cause.' What is "due cause"? That would be something for the Directors to sort out.

BTW, the By-Laws are on the PRA website for anyone who wishes to read them. I've heard that they changed them at Bensen Days to allow a non-life member to be a Director if they have been a member for at least 5 years, but I don't have a confirmation on that.

Just so everyone knows, I always supported the PRA in keeping the Mentone Airport. Before the PRA got the airport, the office was in the back of a Funeral Home. What a great place to call PRA home. The Mentone Aiport will always provide a place to have the Convention. No more last minute cancellations at another airport.

But the Convention does not HAVE to be in Mentone every year. The PRA office has an information packet available for any Chapter that may wish to host the Convention. And yes, I did vote to have it in Texas a couple years ago. The PRA was loosing members, attendance at Mentone was falling, the members wanted a Convention a little further west, so moving it to Texas for one year was a good idea for several reasons.


Lastly, it burns me to see people post 'facts' about people when they have not taken the time to confirm their so called facts. If it's your opinion, that state it as such, or better yet, don't even bother posting it. There are some people who just like to Bitch about things and do nothing, and others who Bitch, but also offer solutions.

The PRA is only as good as it's members. Each member can decide if they want to be a part of the Solution, or just a part of the Problem.

Enough for now, it's time to take a relaxing ride on the Goldwing.

Dave DeWinter

[RHerron]

<<Enough for now, it's time to take a relaxing ride on the Goldwing.>>


Well said, Dave. So, have a Goldwing, do ya?

[Thumpernator]

<<So, have a Goldwing, do ya?

Yep. Rode it down to Savannah this weekend. Spent the night with Jamie, Liz, and the girls. Had a great time.

Dave

[wheacock]

Thank you David!

And they all said: AMEN!

[GyroRon]

Whats up??? No one has more to say? I would like to know more about the so called shadow boards.

[barnstorm2]

I guess I will have to start a new thread to get back on topic. :(

[wheacock]

Hi Ron,
Since you are hungry for the facts, here is the link to all the phone numbers of the current (and not so current) board members.
I know that many of them do not frequent a computer very much, so a personal one on one phone conversation would be recommended.

We eagerly wait for your factual report back so we might be enlightened!

One request. When you get back to us with your first hand report, do start a new thread with the appropriate title.

Thanks for your interest!!


http://www.pra.org/boardMembers.php

[Rotornut]

You need to ask your questions to the right people. We are just like you PRA Members. When you do find the Right Answers from the Right Person, please dont hesitate to tell us.

Also Ron while the price for Lifemembers is down, I urge you to consider joining with the LifeMember plan. Then maybe you could run for the Board and be Our Voice. yes/no/maybe?? MJ :)

[GyroRon]

I would really love to ask the right people the right questions and post what I learned, but this is grass cutting season and I am swamped! got over 60 lawns a week I cut by myself so free time to chat on the phone is limited right now. I did email Ernie and plan to call him soon to discuss it. I know Ernie is a straight shooter and will not hold back anything.

I don't know that I could serve on the board... No one would vote for me anyway!

[jamiebodie]

You buy the lifetime membership and I will nominate you and vote for you.

If you have enough time to post as much as you do, you have enough time to get on the phone and talk to some people. Sorry, that is a lame excuse. Please try to come up with a better one. LOL

Is Ernie going to run again after this term?

[Rotornut]

Very Doubtful I believe. MJ :(

[jamiebodie]

I wonder why??????????

Ron, did you get you lifemembership yet? Have you been a member for 5 consecutive years? I have my nomination form ready, I think you would be good for the board.

Jamie

[GyroRon]

No on the 5 years and no on the life membershipy thingy.

Btw... hope to get to fly down with the Wife and Kid sometime this summer to do that day at the beach with you Liz and the girls. Where is the closest airport?

[jamiebodie]

We would love to have you. The closest airport is Hilton Head Island, which is where we would go to the beach anyway.

[GyroRon]

Cool, lets plan on it then. I get my pacer back next weekend if all goes well this week.

[MikeLindsay]

Ron, check out "Frogmore International Airport",St Helenas Island(over the bridge from Beaufort, SC.). When I lived in Irmo, SC in the late '80's to early '90's, we used to go to Hunting Island State park about every other weekend. There's a nice Light House there. It was very private then, but the last time there...alot of beach erosion had occurred. The place reminded of "Gilligans Island" show. Probably worth a flight though. Mike

[GyroRon]

I will probably be out that way several times over the summer. I am also going to Beaufort to meet Tim Verroi to help him learn to tame his new airplane which is a taildragger float plane - a Adventura 582 II - I expect it may take more than one trip down to get him going on his own safely.

[Heron]

I went over this thread again and there are good stuff posted here.
Please stop apologysing for your posts, I will never know who you are if you hesitate.
Those that I offend will have apologies in a personal basis.
Many suggestions came up along the years and very few where implemented or considered. I think old issues and paths less favorable are in the way of good understanding amidst the BOD.
Another thing, I am no longer a member (no renew) and my elected directors are all out of the race (not that is one)
So the actual PRA is even further away from what I like it to be. And this secrecy about stuff is enerving, we are not the CIA, just the PRA and when you meet, you do it in may name, Like Jesus said . . .so respect your electors and come out clean.
There is a clique and there is the Mentone PRA, all the rest is on its own.
I am more of the take over aproach and many people just stay away and think it is not worthy.
Lets turn the heat up, maybe we will get a better temper!
Heron (not a PRA member) (sunstate member, texas member, imokalee member and all forgotten by M.J. :(
Heron

[gyroplanes]

Heron,
Why not jump into the frying pan with us?

I like most of your ideas and by being a board member you will find out here are no cliques, secrets and / or hidden agendas.

We used to have politics in the PRA but not in the last 10 years or so. We're just hard working people who love sport rotorcraft and are willing to put up with whiners to advance the sport we love so much.

[Heron]

Tom
In time people will realise that I do want the PRA "be all it can be" and this is my perverted way to get it to change faster.
I know a lot about associations, there always gonna be groups and subgroups in one, but when it stalls the gowing process than we should look at the lidership and question it.
I sent e-mails several times and did not get an answer, I am talking way back and nobody new me at that time. It pissed me off when I became a member and the same treatment was dispensed to me.
I apreciate what you guys do, it takes dedication and love. I reckon that!
It beats me why things are the way they are and here are some points.
In almost 4 years how many new pilots/ships are in action?
How many new chapters?
What areas of interests are been targeted for membership?
Why we do not have subscription for the magazine, independent of membership?
Why we do not have the PRA credit card? (there is a lot of money to be made here)
Why there is not a bigger aproach PRA-EAA (we are experimental)
WE can have four major fly ins in the country and the 5th is Mentone, the national convention can be rotated and give two years in advance for the chosen Chapter to prepare.
PRA is business and can be Big on that too . . .do the math and see the buying power of 3.000 families.
In the near future I will be more engaged than today, too much going on already!
thanks
Heron

[donshoebridge]

Please don't let this posting turn this thread into a pro-vs.-con horizontal stab issue... But about a year or so ago, there were a few very vocal individuals pushing the PRA to take a stand on horizontals, more specifically, RAF and their lack of a horizontal. The opposing argument was that if the PRA did something like this, that they would be sued and the PRA would be no more. Several of these people were of the opinion that if PRA closed it's doors, who cares. Just start a new organization.

Here's an idea along that same line of thinking. If you don't like the PRA, or you think you can do a better job, or you have a "PRA shadow board" conspiracy theory, go start your own damn association! It's real easy to sit on your back-side, in front of your computer and tear down the PRA because you have your own ideas, issues, and/or agendas. Ok, so lets see what you can do! Let's see how many members you can dig up. Let's see if your annual convention draws more people by constantly moving its location every year. Better yet... Let's see how long your "association" lasts!

Nuff said :mad:

[Heron]

Take a deep breath and look around . . .
We are the PRA you knuckle head, we have to do it together and not separating groups. Are you pro-Bush?
Do you really think our jokes and playfull time here do not impact the results?
Step in your Shoe and Bridge the gap, lets play sling shot for a moment.
The PRA is US, not so much so today, many people reffer to it like some Dissociated Head alienated from the Body.
And I now what they do, I have been looking close for many years now.
There is a lot of good on it . . .
Ron A. please lend me the MISTER T pic that one that says FOOL!
Heron

[gyroblackwell]

If WE are PRA (as you say) then why are WE bad-mouthing those that have put in the most time and effort into the PRA ? You sit back and bad-mouth the BOD and you are not even a PRA member now!

GO ahead a give us all the B.S. about being in the PRA longer then who-ever and then give your speech about dropping out to prove your point about the PRA not being up to par. Well I,for one, don't think that dropping out solves anything. The board members,that dropped out, did so for their own selfish personal reasons. They did'nt GET what thay WANTED FROM the PRA so they left! They were not on the board for the good of the community, but rather for the good of number one (themselves).

Start calling names, and slamming people, and you will have a bunch more of us backing them up!

WE "the PRA" need to stick together and support those that WE voted on to the board. If YOU don't like them, then get off your butt, and get voted onto the board. You no longer have to be a life member, just have 5yrs of being a member, and get voted on.

That is my 2 cents worth!

Tim :mad:

[donshoebridge]

Fool?!?! How do you figure? I wasn't necessarily trying to disagree with you. I just don't see what everyone’s big hang-up is about the PRA. I don't "need" the PRA. I can buy/build/design/fly without their assistance. I also don't need to have their assistance to have an aviation club, or get more people interested in gyros. As far as I'm concerned, my membership gains me a magazine for 12 months. Big deal! Same thing with firearms... I don't need the NRA to know how to shoot, or the EAA to fly.

Now besides the magazine, what else does the PRA have to offer? Nothing! As you had eluded to earlier, the PRA doesn't have a Visa card program, or life insurance, or discounts for rental cars and hotels, or specialized training and instructors. So even if you wanted the PRA to do something for you, exactly as you have spelled it out, they wouldn't have the money or manpower to do it.

Increased membership would only help if you had someone that knew what to do with the money. Besides, the PRA is made up of pilots and builders, not business men looking to increase their profit margin. So until the PRA finds a new or existing member with a strong business background, AND is willing to become a board member, don't hold your breath!

[GyroRon]

Don I ditto your last post. I just put my renewal dues in the mail today... I had to really twist my own arm to do so since like you say all I really get for my 35 bucks is a magazine - that although is pretty good, the internet makes the magazine not so important for me - I may want to run for board in a few years and this renewal will make year three for me so only two more to go right!

Heron you make some good points. BUT if your not a current member than I have to go along with tim Blackwell and say your rants don't count for much if you aren't still one of us - ie a current member - Spend the 35 bucks and get back on board and then your points will have more merit.

Tim Blackwell, I think your really wrong about the board member drop outs. Just as you feel they were wrong about this shadow board issues and so on.

[donshoebridge]

Ron,

If your attitude is the same when your name comes up on the ballot, I'll vote for you.

Don

[GyroRon]

Great three votes so far - MJ Don and Jamie !

[Heron]

I will gladly donate 35 bucks now that I can, but I do not want to renew my membership 'till some light can be seen.
And you red faced guys watch that blood pressure, this is just an exercise of free speech and nothing else.
I do help the PRA by helping the gyro movement as a whole, I miss Rotorcraft.com as a reference for people that I can get involved.right now I send them to this forum and they will sorti it out.
And Ron . . .I am one of US, card or no card. At least in my heart and that is good enough for me.
When just one of the points that I mentioned here is taken to consideration I will look in to going back.
I voted for 3 guys that are no longer BOD members, and it sounds kinda funny to me.
And let me tell you some else, there was no conversations between me and them all the time.
I do not know what they stand for as fas as issues, why they stepped down and what to make of the rumors around us.
Do you want to get mad at me, go ahead make my day! :)
I kidd too much sometimes . . .just take it easy ok?
Lets here some official words now, shall we? (what about an enterview with GG posted here?)
Heron
And Ron . . .I said some time ago, the new PRA are going to have people like Ron, Matt, John, Todd running it like a business and it will be great. You got my vote too. (if)

[GyroRon]

Heron all I am saying is it isn't fair to bitch about something your not part of. I am no longer a Paid member of Sunstate and as such I no longer involve my two cents in their club business - other than the location of Bensen Days but I feel that is different. My point is it is tough for the Pra - remember the PRA is paid active membership - to take a bunch of moaning and groaning from people that have dropped out or choose not to be members for whatever the reason. This is the biggest reason I just sent in my payment for renewal today. I also think the PRA could do a lot more and should. But by dropping my membership and then becoming a outsider, I in effect turn my back on the problems, not fix them. So Heron cough up the 35 bucks and send it in!!!

And Heron I am not mad at you or anything. I know you like to Stir the pot as I do too.

[donshoebridge]

Ok... Now that we've got that out of our system (kinda), except for membership numbers, what would (should) be the highest priority for the PRA? More magazine content? PRA business cards for its members? A program that parallels Young Eagles? How about gyro/helo insurance for an additional fee?

I can tell y'all one thing for sure, the PRA NEEDS newer computers! The machines they currently have are so far behind the power curve, it's a wonder that Pam can get anything done at all. There are plenty of people in this area (which includes myself) that can build a couple of computers if the parts were donated to the PRA. A mother board, CPU, RAM, better monitors, etc., anything.

I have an older AMD ATX mother board with a 1133Mhz processor that I might be able to part with. I may also have some RAM kicking around and an older 8Meg ATI All-In-Wonder video card. Anyone else with parts? Whatever parts are donated that can't be used, I say the PRA can either sell it off or trash it.

[Heron]

I will get there kicking and screaming, believe me!!
No. . .no coughing up nothing untill changes appear!
I still helping anyway.
Don: I know this is just rethoric and fun amongst ourselves but the issues are been debated and we will get something done shortly.
Good going on the pc thing. thats some relief for te shallow pockets of the PRA.
I wish we had some discussions with the guys that are Officials and can put out some agenda for issues to debate and execute.
They have to come out of the closet (no gay related, ok?)
We should be having this debate over the PRA forum . . .that page is tottaly asseptic and steril.
I would like to know only ONE proposal been discussed by them (that should be US)
thanks
Heron

[GyroRon]

Heron my friend, post all you want about the PRA but trust me, no one is going to pay it any attention if you are not even a member. But enough on all that...

Don, it would be nice if the Pra could do or offer more for it's members. The Magazine is okay but like I said I get more info and pictures and so on from the Forums and other places on the web. And as for offering computer parts... I wish I had something worth giving. All I got is this crappy Compaq presario...

[donshoebridge]

Ron,

I talked to Pam at length several weeks ago about this. She informed me that all of the content in Popular Rotorcraft Magazine is sent out for final artwork and printing. With even a single newer computer, the cost of preparing the content for printing by an outside source would be almost eliminated. The left over money could go back into the PRA for more useful "stuff".

She also informed me of the pain of booting the computers in the morning. She turns them on and goes to make coffee because it takes better than 5 minutes just to boot. Even after that amount time, the CD drive might not work, the network connection to the second computer might not work, or some other problem pops-up. Then she has to reboot and wait another 5 minutes. The integrity of the PRA's computer "system" (if you can call it that), sucks (for the lack of a better word).

It may be possible to put together a proposal for the BOD to build from scratch, or rebuild one of the existing computers so that it can act as a sever, and as a magazine editing tool. Four-hundred bucks in computer parts (CD burner for $40, mother board for $75-$100, processor for $85-$150, RAM, 80 Gig HD for $65 or so) can buy quit a bit of horsepower now a days.

[chuter]

Maybe they could have some type of raffle to raise money to buy a new computer from Dell or Gateway, then they'd have the full warranty and support. Just a thought.

[GyroRon]

Dude...! your getting a Dell :>

[Hognose]

Just looked at the site (https://www.pra.org/join.php) and life membership is still listed as $525 in the USA (and more in those other colours on the map). How does one get this legendary $400 life membership?

cheers

-=K=-

[Hognose]

what about an interview with GG posted here?



Hey Heron,

that's a good idea. As the local scribbler (or one of them) I'd do it. I am gonna wait to see what the answer is on life membership though. I am cheap enough to try to save money on the org.... at the $400 level a life membership is a bet that I will live 12 years; at the $525 level I'm up to 16 years.

Not sure I will make either one but thanks to this forum among other things, I am pretty confident it won't be because I died in a gyro.

cheers

-=K=-

[Whirlydog]

Don you asked what the PRA should look at as priorities.

1. The highest piority I think, should be centered around how to increase membership. Free pamplets that people can give out. Membership drive contests, like that mentioned at the start of this thread.

2. I would like to see more magazines per year and the calander issue brought back. I miss my roto calender. I seems like forever between magazine deliveries. Maybe if they went black and white format (except calender) you could save enough money to put out a few more issues a year? Or put the calander issue for sell in the PRA store.

3. Maybe a larger store. Sell decals, bumper sitckers, coffee/beer mugs w/decal, calanders, posters, t-shirts, videos, dvds, toys, ect.

4. T-shirt design competition. The top five design entries get a free T-shirt. Put the five designs on the forum and let everybody vote for thier choice.


How is that for a start.

Shawn

[Whirlydog]

question? The PRA reduced the number of issues due to a reduction of members. How many new members would it take to increase the number of magazine issues? Say we have around 500 + members now if we could get that number to 600 could we get 6 issues, 700-7 issues ect? Could some numbers be established and this also be a way to help increase membership?

[donshoebridge]

Shawn,

I like the pamphlet idea. It's simple, cheep, and you don't have to baby sit it too much. The idea of the free pamphlets would be a good thing to set-up in a FBO. Seeing how homebuilt aircraft seem to be dependent on the support of other builders, there should be a PRA chapter within say 50 miles or so of the FBO where the pamphlets are located, with space on the pamphlet for the chapter contact information. The down side is that many fixed (stalled) wing pilots have a preconceived opinion about gyros, and I don't think you're going to get too many people to bite.

You mentioned "toys". How about a gyro kite that actually works! Good grief! The guy who designed that rotary-winged-lawn-dart actually came up on Norms forum once and made the mistake of asking people what they thought about it. The resulting verbal abuse was not pretty, but was justified in my opinion.

Hey Tim Blackwell... What do you think? You think you and I can come up with something in kite form that will actually fly? :D

Don

[gyroblackwell]

A gyro dart ... I mean Kite?

Sure !

we'll use the left-overs after we win Flug-Tag this summer.

We'll have fiberglass blades, weight-shift cockpit, and water-logged brains!!

By the way .... I am running for the board ! Paid my 400$ life membership, and am working on my Resume' right now! So be sure and vote for me!

I hope to be able to bring the board happenings to this forum on a regular basis, and help all of us understand what is going on, and what WE are going to do to fix it!

An YES I know that some are saying ... I tried that, as a aboard member, and got no-where! Well now it is my chance to see If I can get the PRA some-where!

I want to GIVE to the PRA, my fellow members, and the community of "the gyro". OK enough of that.

Lets build a gyro kite that functions like a hang-glider, and stings like a bee !

:D
HA!

Tim

[Hognose]

I am running for the board ! Paid my 400$ life membership....



Tim and guys,

I am trying to do that (get life membership, not run for the board!) If I go to the website it still wants five and a quarter. How do you get the discounted rate?

cheers

-=K=-
Hognose the Cheapskate, aka

[GyroRon]

Kevin I would just call to the headquarters to confirm the discounted price then send in the 400$. They voted in the new lower price at Bensen Days and probably haven't updated the web site yet.

[Hognose]

Thanks Ron. I will put it on my to-do list for the morning.

I told Glenn Bundy and Gary that I would join PRA at last year's Mentone and I haven't done it yet. I feel like such a freeloader!

cheers

-=K=-

[Heron]

Ok the magazine . . .
3 editions pre prepared (first, mid and end of year)
9 remaining months (4 major flyins as main subject)
5 months to fill up with regular rotor activity and (how many) the chapters to feed stuff.
I would buy this magazine for sure and many people also in the world if you throw in some international stuff on it (whats what and whos who)
lets say 35 bucks for a subscription?
ah . . .what am I doing?
Heron

[donshoebridge]

I think the problem the PRA is having with a magazine-a-month is content, like you had alluded to. Don Parham has the same issue with his magazine. The bottom line is neither the PRA or Don have investigative reporters in the field, and there isn't too many people willing to write an article to fill space.

I'd like to see an article about the low popularity of gyros, and what can be done to improve their image and increase POSITIVE exposure to gyros. It could almost be in the form of a report complete with statistical data, charts, graphs, etc. Obviously, this isn't something that one person could put together in a short amount of time. Even if there were several people working on this same "report", to have a complete understanding of the big picture might take a full summer (or two) to complete. To make the report more like an article, and to offset the non-gyro communities opinion of gyros in general, factual information about gyros should be included as necessary. Once complete, there should be an attempt to have it published in as many aviation magazines as possible!

Even if this report/article doesn't have any PRA or club contacts, it will spark enough interest in the aviation community to at least pull a few people in, shed some light on gyros in general, and it'll provide more content to Rotorcraft Magazine.

Comments...

[gyroblackwell]

Call PRA and arrange to send it in. It is a limited-time-offer during the "find-a-board-member" program, so don't delay!

[barnstorm2]

Tim,

Nice web site. I will try to add some links this weekend.


Don,

I would be happy to write such an article if you don't want to or offer assistance if I can help in any way.. If anyone can tell me where I can mine such data for free that would be great as I have thought about this issue as well.

I submitted an article to Rotorcraft on a subject close to this but smaller in scope but it has not been printed yet.

Everytime I have looked into collecting this type of data I have found that the data collectors have done a terrible job of defining what a gyro is and most gyros that are built and flown are largely unaccounted for. This also goes a long way to making our sport's numbers inaccurate.

[MGman]

A couple of thoughts about things the PRA board could do to further education about gyros and their safe use:

1. Take Aussie Paul's approach and prewrite or outline some articles, and physically take them to a reporter. This way the facts will be preserved and the reporter will be inclined to submit them for printing.

2. Take a (willing) reporter for a free ride in a stable gyro. Generate a sense of safety and confidence in the flight.

3. Any board members that are members of this forum can simply read this forum content for ideas. There are literally dozens of (good) ideas included in the musings of this group.

4. Tell the PRA membership what is going on at headquarters - the good and the bad. If there are devisive issues, there are probably good reasons for the dissent - put polls out to the membership for their input.

5. Publicize (to the membership and to the general public) the efforts to make gyros safer - Geg Gremmiger, Al Hammer, et al's efforts in this forum to describe and define gyro stability definitions and testing are not only fascinating and interesting - they are just full of great information about how to make gyros operate safer.

6. After the new sport rules are approved, publicize stability testing results of manufacturers willing to make their testing data available. Even better, perform independent testing of the various amnufacturer's models. This could be similar to Road and Track's auto testing where they have several tests performed on automobiles that everyone understands at a glance (0-60 speed, 1/4 mile times, 60-0 braking, etc.). The same could be done for various gyro manufacturers.

7. Publicize and recommend periodic and annual safety check information and procedures. Provide information about bolt failure modes such as has been discussed in this forum. Have articles that focus on specific issues, such as rotor balancing or control system configurations. Provide a discussion about lap belts vs 5 point safety harness. Again automobile (and bicycling) magazines do this type of publication regularly.

I am a non-flyer (so far), having just had a demonstration ride about a month ago, thanks to Gary brewer at the Sacamento, Ca Nuttree airport. I was extemely impressed with his attitude and with his very safe and clean appearing gyro (a modified RAF2000). This was after I had been reading a lot about buntovers and PIO, in Norms and this forum, but even with a bit of fear and trepidation from that research, I found the ride extremely exciting and exilirating (and safe) to the point that I decided that some day I want to own and operate a gyro.

I find the discussions on this forum extremely valuable and enlightening. I sign on every morning in anticipation of discovering something new. Also, the humor (and even the wierd stuff) is contagious and I am getting to feel like I know many of the participants of this forum, even tho I've never personally met any of them. I do hope to get to the el Mirage fly-in this fall so maybe I'll be able to put some faces to names there.

I just signed up for PRA membership, but have never read any of the past magazine copies, so I don't know if the ideas I tossed out above are already covered in past or current issues. However, they are the kind of articles I would be personally interested in reading in the magazine. With everything going on in the gyro world today, I find it unbelievable that there aren't enough ideas to fill the PRA magazine very month.

Thanks and I'll keep on lurking

Dave Bohler

[gyroblackwell]

MGman,

Most excellent post my friend!

I agree with your thoughts whole-heartedly.

A BIG "agree" on the board providing more info to the PRA owners (US) on all meetings, as well as bouncing ideas (good or bad) off of those that can provide immediate responses (this forum) to any questions and or concerns that the board may encounter.

Thanks again for your response!

Tim

[Dean_Dolph]

Dave, your ideas all have merit and some of them are/have been done. However, one of the reasons the magazine doesn't have more (I know you haven't received one yet) meat in it is the simple fact that the PRA can only afford to print so many pages. And besides that the magazine staff consists of only the editor as far as I know. This means there is a ton of work for one person in getting the mag out. There are others involved as contributor editors and photographers (you could be one!) but the editor puts the whole thing together.

But the main reason the magazine doesn't have the content people would like to see is the fact that the members don't contribute any material. There is a constant plea from the editors, past and present, for material to print. So, if we want to see the magazine present more and relevant material then we are going to have to send the editor something to work with. This includes pictures, editors love pictures! This magazine is a magazine by and for the members so we are going to get out what we put in. I would bet that Rick would like to have more material than he can use. Enough that he could be selective about what to print.

If any of you have a topic you want to share with the gyro world then I would suggest contacting Rick Gilley, the editor, (PRA headquaters email - prahq@medt.com) and ask him if he would accept an article. I don't know what Rick's policy is but Kathy Fields always said that she didn't care about how it was written or the grammar or spelling because she could take care of that. That means even I could submit something! And I have. What about the rest of you?

[daveeisler]

I think the PRA should contact the other magazines, that for free will post events, And some will even write an article in thier magazine.They are allways looking for something new and different. There are a lot of ways to get free and positive exposure that the PRA does not take advantage of. How about giving the EAA or Kit Plane Magazine a call and put some of our members and thier gyros in an article that mentions the PRA several times, This would do several things, it will expose non gyronots to gyros and to the PRA and it will inform those who may now have some interest in flying a gyro and give them a place to start.We have to expand outside our little world and enter into the much larger world of flying machines. I am based at a medium sized general aviation airport and when people see my little gyro they can't help but look and ask questions and I make sure they get a very positive but brief explination and they allways leave happy and more knowledgeable and several ask how they can learn more.

[Dean_Dolph]

Dave, I'm going to act as Larry Goodhind's spokesman* and remind you that you, along with the rest of the members, are the PRA! So don't hesitate to get involved. Take on part of the responsibility and do the contacting to find out what is required and pass it on to the PRA board and to the editor of the magazine. I don't believe performing some of the legwork is usurping the BOD or the editor's responsibilities.

Dave the following isn't directed to only you. I'm just tagging it on to this message.

Anyone notice that this forum reacts to problems and such just like any other group. We are all guilty of citing the problems and then maybe, just maybe offering a solution. More often than not a solution is not offered. But when it is, it is always suggested that someone else implement the solution. When PRA issues are brought up it is always the PRA BOD or some person or other that we say should do this or that.

There are some things that decorum says should be left to the BOD or specific person but there is nothing to stop any of us from pursuing a solution to a point where it can be presented for consideration.

We need to remember that our PRA leaders are volunteers and just like us have a life out side rotorcraft. That means their time is at a premium and they can only do so much with what they have. Any time we can donate helps the whole organization. That is why the membership drive that has been started here on this forum is so refreshing. It is a grass roots effort that should help the whole organization and is time donated by PRA members outside the BOD.

In the now famous words of Ron Awad, all the above is just my opinion!

*Larry Goodhind, as I have mentioned before, chastised me on Norm's conference for trying to shift responsibility to the PRA, on a specific subject, by pointing out that I, along with the other members was the PRA. I haven't noticed Larry visiting here for a while so thought I would help him out!

[daveeisler]

Several weeks ago I sent an e-mail to the EAA with the dates of the PRA convention, I do not yet know if it was printed, I also met with a writer and friend of mine from Kit Planes magazine and over the last several weeks he wrote a full length article about my gyro and we hope to see it in print soon.
It will also go into a german magazine, I have the PRA calander on the wall in my local airport and I allways park my gyro out front for all to see and ask questions and thier is more that I have done , thier is more you can do.

[Heron]

If we keep the music, in time people will learn how to dance . . .
Many ideas are been presented and new people are getting envolved and that is the beauty of this forum.
I posted something about the computers situation but it seems it did not get posted (missed)
Todd: could you open a space for the PRA so they can post announcements and messages and have a closer contact with the gyro "inteligentzia" (well sorta)
Heron

[donshoebridge]

Dave and Dean,

Dave touched on an interesting point that I had made mention of earlier, to which I will expand on.

The bad press and lack of participation in the gyro community as a whole isn't a PRA thing, it's a gyro thing. Like I had stated before in an earlier post, I don't need the PRA to own/build/design/fly a gyro. The lack of gyros in the air is more of a global perception problem.

Putting gyro articles into a typically non-gyro magazine is great for exposing people that don't have any knowledge about gyros. Hats off to that idea! But then you have the fixed wingers that think they know everything there is to know about flying and bad mouth the gyros safety record, or whatever. I think that is the real barrier that needs to be broken down.

Some time ago, there was an Excel spreadsheet that was a compilation of accident data, which I think is still available on the PRA's website. When I first saw this document, I pulled it down and looked it over. I took exception with the conclusion of the document because at the time the whole "just stab it" push was on, and it seemed as if the spreadsheet was specifically biased toward the argument of "just stab it". So I took it upon myself to recompile the data to see if another conclusion can be drawn. What I found is that the number one problem with gyros (and their accidents) was Training (46%), not horizontals. Second came Aircraft Reliability And Quality Issues (25%), Horizontals (18%) was third, and other was forth (last at 11%).

What does this have to do with the current topic? Anyone outside of the gyro community would looking at the original accident data would use it as justification why not to fly in a gyro - because they have stability problems, which I don't believe is the case. So with these articles that we write and send to various magazines, there had better be a few tid-bits of safety data (that we can all agree upon) thrown in for good measure.

Don

[GyroRon]

Yeah but Don, a lot of accidents in gyros that are NOT stable were classified as not enough training when in fact had the machine been Stable and not HTL the pilot or pilots might not have had a problem.

[Dean_Dolph]

Don, I want to say it is good that someone is questioning what is being presented and also agree that we are kind of hijacking this thread and going off topic. But I am curious as to why you questioned the Excel spreadsheet conclusions and then why people wouldn't question your conclusions. You say you recompiled the data so is there any reason not to think that you also biased the results. We need a little more detail. This isn't a put down but an attempt to understand your thinking.

Also it seems you are going against current thinking and analysis by saying that gyro stability is not the major problem. The majority of the 1+ year ASTM gyro sub-committee effort was on developing stability standards for the Light Sport Gyroplane. Are you saying that this effort was misdirected? If so then the 30 - 40 people on the sub-committee, which includes several who visit here, will be surprised to hear it.

I think everyone agrees that lack of, or inadequate, training is a major contributor to the gyro incident rate. But most also believe that gyro stability is the number one cause with training in second place.

I have a personal interest in the training issue, as you are probably aware, and hope that when all the dust clears that we will not only have more stable gyros but better training. Together those two items should reduce the gyro incident rate considerably and put them more on par with the rest of the aviation world.

[Dean_Dolph]

Don, not a comment but a question. When will you be starting to put this article together? :)

[Heron]

How is the membership drive going? Any numbers?
heron

[donshoebridge]

I figured my last posing was going to stir things up a bit. Before I get into the details of my last post, I want to revise (slightly) one statement that Dean questioned me on... I do think that there is a stability issue with gyros, I just don't think it's as bad as the original accident data portrays.

Ron,

You stated "...a lot of accidents in gyros that are NOT stable were classified as not enough training when in fact had the machine been Stable and not HTL the pilot or pilots might not have had a problem."

Ron and Dean,

The original accident data had about 44 relevant entries. If you read the indicators and comments for each accident, the conditions/situations you point out are not the majority. Things like "inadvertent takeoff", "high speed pull up", "mid-air w/UL", "hit wire", "controls failure - corrosion", "loose control stick", "unable to maintain altitude - behind power curve", "rotor flapping", "downwind turn", etc., etc., (30 accidents of similar nature) do not have anything to do with H-Stabs or the general stability of the aircraft.

There were a few entries (6 actually) that stated that the rotor struck the tail. Two of them were during take-off, so does that mean that the aircraft was unstable, or that the pilot didn't have the rotors up to speed, or did he haul back on the stick too far?

There was one entry that stated "high-thrustline, small HS". I take exception to ALL statements by ANYONE that says "high thrustline"! Until I see a gyro weighed (landing gear CG calc) and/or a complex 3D computer model (such as mine) showing exactly where the CG is located in relation to the thrustline, I am not going to believe the description "high thrustline". Not once have I ever pointed at a gyro and said "high-thrustline", and I'm not going to start. And here's why. When I first posted my Hornet drawings, I had several people e-mail me, beating me up about the location of my CG, stating that "...there is no way it could be..." where I said it was.

Most everyone I've talked to seems to think that the CG of any gyro/pilot mass is at the pilots belly button! BS! It's not. And here's the kicker, when I asked these same people, "so where's your CG located?", 100% of the answers were "I don't know, but I know yours is [Here]." BS!

There is no way anyone can just look at a gyro and say "your CG is right here." So when I see "high-thrustline" in an accident description, I say "lets see some proof!"

As for the accident report, there are a handful that say "in-flight break-up" or "tumbled to ground". Is that a "high-thrustline" issue, or did one of the rotor blades depart the aircraft while in-flight? Most of the "break-ups" were RAF's. What about the rotor blade incident in Florida a couple of months ago? Is it possible that this could have happened in-flight and people call it a "high-thrustline" problem? The obvious indicator there would be if a whole blade were missing from the crash site.

I'm just saying that I think people are playing fast-and-loose with this whole "not centerline thrust" nomenclature when they can't even tell you where their own CG is located.

I would love to see a gyro with the control sensitivities and flight stability of a small fixed wing, like a C152. I think the closes to this description would be a Little Wing. Using that as training tool, instructors could stair step the students up to something more responsive and powerful.

This is getting to long. How about a new thread?

[Dean_Dolph]

Well gee, Don, I just asked! And I guess you pretty much answered why you questioned the data.

And yes if there needs to be anymore discussion a new thread is desirable. This one is being hijacked and is important enough that it needs to get back on track. So I hope that everyone waits until a possible new thread appears before making anymore replys.

Don you want to copy you message to a new thread and see what happens?

[quadrirotor]

Don, i found that many people were under medication too!...?...

[donshoebridge]

Todd,

Is it possible to copy this entire page to a new thread?

Don

[PW_Plack]

I've avoided reading this thread for a while. I'm not sure what ticks me off more, Heron's rudeness or the things I hear from insiders.

If a private company desperately needed two new computers, and could recoup that money in reduced expenses in a fairly short term, some manager with a backbone would gather the staff, review the options, decide what was needed to make it happen, and get everybody on board.

I work for a radio station where the salaried employees took 10 per cent pay cuts to get through a business crisis following the 9-1-1 attacks, and resulting downturn in the advertising business. We're fine now, business back on track, employees back at full pay. I understand why government agencies don't do that, but what about these non-profits? PRA spends more than 40 per cent of its total income on salaries and office expenses, over $67,000 in 2003, more than it spent on the magazine. How can there not be a way to tighten up enough to get a couple decent computers?

I'm discouraged about the direction of the PRA, but I did renew this year, even though I'm not building or flying yet. I support the organization because it represents the institutional memory of the sport, but I have to wonder whether the PRA will be around long enough to make life membership something to consider.

[Hognose]

As for the accident report, there are a handful that say "in-flight break-up" or "tumbled to ground". Is that a "high-thrustline" issue, or did one of the rotor blades depart the aircraft while in-flight? Most of the "break-ups" were RAF's. What about the rotor blade incident in Florida a couple of months ago? Is it possible that this could have happened in-flight and people call it a "high-thrustline" problem? The obvious indicator there would be if a whole blade were missing from the crash site.



Don,

you will not get a lot of traction reading just the synopses of the mishaps. NTSB is slowly getting smart about experimental rotorcraft (they went through five or so Mini-500 fatals before they figured out that Dennis was blowing smoke up their, er, thrustlines. It takes a while for a fixed wing guy to get gyro-smart, even if he's an accident investigator).

However, I've been through everything I can get on every gyro crash they've got, not to mention the reports of foreign accident boards, and most inflight break-ups are RRPM/low-G problems. None of the RAF prangs is a thrown blade. Sometimes blades separate, but usually subsequent to striking the tail, prop or cabin (which if you examine an RAF you will agree that a rotor bearing normal flight loads -- centrifugal and thrust -- could not do. Something caused the rotor to depart from its normal path. QED. That something was probably low-RPM/low-G flapping).

The mishap that took the life of Ashley Godeaux and injured Bill Ortmeyer was a pretty unusual failure mode for an experimental gyro. From the photos posted here I have formed a tentative conclusion as to the failure sequence, but I am *not* a qualified metallurgist.

One thing is that machine-related accidents, mechanicals, are much higher as a percentage of mishaps in gyros than in experimental f/w, and lower than in experimental helicopters. This is proportional to their relative mechanical complexity. All rates are much higher than certified aircraft (although certified gyros are too rare to draw conclusions from their stats). That tells me that we can improve our design, inspection and maintenance (I know that you are working on design). I think part of this is the "fresh eyeballs" factor too. In a certified a/c the designer, manufacturer, pilot, and maintainer/inspector are usually four different blokes who have individual specialities. In experimental they might all be the same guy who is a jack of all trades. (That's part of the fun, isn't it). But we humans can easily habituate ourselves to overlooking something. A fresh eyeball can see what you have been overlooking. That is an invisible benefit of the four-different-dudes system of certified aviation.

Your main point, if I have it right, is that most accidents result from training deficiencies. I think that most accidents result from human error, yes, but training is not the only cause. Some are judgment errors. ("Hey, y'all, watch this!") Some are failure to seek information. One of our members told a chilling story of a guy who was determined to fly without instruction at his drome, who only was prevented from flying without instruction because he bungled trying to prop a Mac and maimed himself. Had he got the machine started he would have hit something he shouldn't have done sooner or later. Is that a training problem? I'd say it is a judgment. ADM, or discipline problem.

You are right that machine stability is not the be-all and end-all of safety. We need to also look at all the human factors. For every guy whose gyro betrayed him, there are two who flew a perfectly good gyro into the ground. The imbalance would be even higher, if we didn't have some pretty ate-up gyro design and construction out there.

cheers

-=K=-

[Heron]

Paul Plack:
It is not my intention to offend anyone, but some times I get pissed, sorry if I made you feel unconfortable
I am passionate about some issues and I do have time to think before I post, so I could pass for someone I am not. This is who I am, blabber mouth.
Most of my posts are ironic and some sarcastic but my goal is to keep the subject been discusssed and making people come out of lurking.
Many ideas were presented and I hope the "official" word can respond to them.
Have a big hug and lets go on . . .
Heron

[donshoebridge]

Kevin (Hognose),

You are correct - human error is the biggest factor! In fact, in the Excel spreadsheet that I put together with the recompiled data, I grouped 4 different (but similar) categories into 1. The common thread of this one category deals specifically with the interaction between man-and-machine while in flight or attempting to fly, which also includes training and experience level.

But like you stated, "you will not get a lot of traction reading just the synopses of the mishaps". This may be true, and if this is the case (and I believe you are correct to a certain degree), making the original accident data available to the general public was irresponsible and misleading. IMHO, it seems that the entire focus of the original spreadsheet was to build a case for horizontal stabilizers, and not examine accidents and their causes.

Dean,

To answer your question, “When will you be starting to put this article together?” I’m going over it in my mind now trying to lay out the format and how to gather the data. I think I’m going to have to ask everyone here to help out so that the article is as accurate as possible. I’ll start a new thread concerning this article.

Don