PRA Issues

[Dean_Dolph]

Paul, I can't say this site is any faster/easier to use than Norm's. For my use there were tradeoffs on both of them. I learned to live with the idiosyncrasies.

The issue of the PRA handling and providing info keeps coming up and the answer is the same as for anything else, MONEY and people!

If you take a look at page 20 of the Feb. issue you will see the financial report for 2003. They are reporting approximately 3200 members and a financial loss of about $2500. The convention made money in '03 as opposed to the loss at the Texas convention in '02. There just isn't any money at the national level for the organization to do all it would like to do. These issues get kicked around at the life members meetings (I'm one of them there life members!) but the membership has to be around 3800 just to break even.

The only way the PRA is going to be able to do big things for the overall membership is if the local chapters promote the PRA and grow their chapters. The three largest sources of income are the membership fees, the convention and advertising. This isn't the EAA with 100s of thousands of members and consequently the PRA has only two paid employees (I think!). That is the editor of the magazine and Pam Bundy, who runs the office. With only two employees it is hard to promote membership and advertising. It has to take place at the local level.

Most of the local chapters don't even require that members of the chapter belong to the PRA and there are a lot of PRA members who don't belong to a chapter! So, it is obvious to me that until that changes the organization will stay fragmented with out much leverage to move forward. For those that say that they don't have a chapter close to them I say that isn't any excuse! I know Sun State has members that don't even live in Florida! It seems everyone wants but doesn't want to give. In this case everyone is going to have to give before the get what they want. Lets face it; we are cheap! That is why a lot of us got involved with gyros in the first place, we thought it was an inexpensive way to commit aviation. Wrong!

[Heron]

Hi Paul ;
I may have a clue why PRA is doing so bad (it is my opinion, take it as so . . .and thank Ron for me)
I will give you a hint . . .
I N C O M P E T E N C E !
This makes my blood boil!!
Heron
And tell all the other to get their experts and loyalists butts over here, presto!!! (I miss them) :-[

[barnstorm2]

Dean,

Well stated. The PRA was loosing $27K in 2001 and $17K in 2002 so with a loss of only $2.5K things are getting better.

We do need a membership drive.

As you stated we need to do this from the 'grass roots'

It is unfortunate that the PRA has been forced to reduce the size of ROTORCRAFT.

Paul, as far as the web page goes I agree. I am under the impression it is still being worked on. Which reminds me I still have some work to do on the PRA 34 site.

Perhaps like the EAA did the Young Eagles, we should look into some 'programs' to popularize our community? ( though with people old enought to buy and fly gyros.... )

"Ask not what the PRA can do for you but what you can do for the rotorcraft community"

[GyroRon]

Okay guys and gals, here is you a place to discuss the PRA and all the pros and cons involving it.

I will start by saying I agree with Dean, it takes members to do something if you want it done. I used to think the PRA should do this and that, but it is clear the PRA is nothing more than us, fellow rotorcraft pilots and builders. We vote in the few that make the decisions for us as a group and if we don't like what we see, we can certainly vote for a change. But the bottom line is we need more members and more money to do more things.

I am a little concerned about what is going on behind the scenes cause I know 2-3 people that were on the board recently gave up or will be giving up there positions due to disagreements among the board. General membership must keep in mind that there is only a few people that make the decisions for the PRA as a whole. We need to know as members what is going on and we need to be involved. If there is poor decision making going on then we should push for changes.

[Brent_Brown]

Feb. issue I pay my dues and I didn't get the Feb. issue,
I've been a member from 1992 > now. I think.

[Dean_Dolph]

Ron, I hated to see the recent resignations because those people had been carrying the torch, so to speak. But I don't hold those people completely blameless.

I know they (me too!) get frustrated when they can't sell others what they believe in. But the one thing everyone who participates as a leader, whether on the PRA board or at the local level, has to remember is that while it may be hard to accept that others don't buy into their agenda; (after all, my ideas are brilliant!) the participation is the only way they have any effect at all. It is a case of, you win some and you lose some but you stay in the game.

One of the things that bothers me the most about PRA criticism is when those like Heron offer the criticism without also offering a viable solution.

Heron's last post, like a lot of his and others, reeks with innuendo. That is not fair to those that try their best to serve us. Rather than say people are incompetent why not state an example. But the example can't be just a disagreement on issues because then all we are doing is getting back to personal agendas. And believe me, we all have them!

Those of us that have served at the local level recognize that you cannot please everyone and it is even worse at the national level. Unless you have had an opportunity to personally discuss the issues with the leaders or witness what they have to deal with then none of us have any clue as to what the overall picture is. I guess that lack of communication is my only beef with the PRA board. They meet several times a year but the general membership never gets an opportunity to see the minutes of those meetings. For that matter the local chapters are never invited to place items on the agenda. That doesn't mean the Chapters don't have the right/responsibility to suggest agenda items without waiting for an invite.

[GyroRon]

They Lost Dave Dewinter over a stupid rule about attending a meeting held at Bensen Days that dave had no way of attending. The officers could have met on the internet and discussed their business there on a regular basis and Dave could have done that. Now the Pra has lost one of the best it could have had.

The others leaving or that have left have other reasons I don't care to discuss here. I will let those people discuss it if they choose. But one thing is for sure there is problems with the Pra, problems that the general membership has no idea of.

[Fiesty]

Subject: PRA

I have been a member too long to talk about. My number is 766.

Problems: Grow up! Quit haggling! We all need to respect others opinions! SHOULD HAVE MEMBERSHIP CONTESTS(obtain new members, introduce interested people to a flight, invite to metings, have monthly club metings, form a club. JUST A FEW WAYS TO INCREASE MEMBERSHIP.

Randy Brooks

[barnstorm2]

Excellent Randy!

Memebership contests!

I will give $100.00 US to the PRA member who can prove to me they signed up the most new members Starting Today ending October 1, 2004.



Anyone else want to donate to the pot? Todd how about a T-shirt for runners up? Anyone?

How is that for putting your $ where your mouth is??? ;D

[Harry_S.]

Ditto for my $100.00, with a stipulation that the new signees' (members) must number at least 5 (five.)

ONE person cannot be awarded all the $$$$, right?
Unless that is an agreement.

[Gordon Gibson]

Yes, all this talk of increasing PRA membership reminds me of the eight page article I did for Rotorcraft last year centering on this issue. It didn't get published but one of my main beefs was the general handling qualities of most of the gyros out there. Don't worry, I won't make the same mistake of rambling on about it this time.

My view is that most open frame pusher config gyros have been traditionally built wrong with regard to prop thrustline (here we go again!) and I consider this to be one of the main reasons (in a nutshell) our gyros have not become as numerous over the years as we all would have liked.

The amount of times, even in my tiny corner of the world, that people - both experienced pilots and complete newcomers - have been for a fly in a 'nice' 2-place gyro and come away frustrated and amazed at how touchy and 'bad' the thing handled...it's a real shame and I have seen with my own eyes evidence of the negativity this can create.

Bottom Line(s): Gyros should be CLT (or much closer than many are today) with adequate and effective HS installed.
Gyros need to be far more user friendly. People need to go for a fly with an instructor and be delighted they can fly the thing straight & level at least, with a minimum of tuition.

Gremminger, Mayfield, Bruty, Neal, Boyette, Hintz, Herron(and others!)...more power to ya.

GORDON GIBSON.

[barnstorm2]

How does this sound?

Winners of First and Second prize must sign up at least 5 or more members on or before October 1, 2004.

First place = 75% of drive pot

Second place = 25% of drive pot

Runners up will receive other donated items as available.

Pot donators will be listed on this forum and the PRA34 web site.

Winner(s) will be announced Saturday October 16, 2004

Applicants must submit names and PRA member numbers of recruits to prachapter34@yahoo.com no later than October 9, 2004

Renewals do not count.

[ToddP]

Rotary Forum will donate a t-shirt to each of the first 2 places.

[r.coplen]

OK, Wolfgang, Harry (the Dirty) and Ron,

I will except your challenge. I will try to get the most new members by October 9. I will commit to getting at least five new (paying)members in chapter 30 and as many more as I can.

Randy

[Harry_S.]

Foul on Randy; you're a commercial dealer? and besides you're not even a year old yet.

[r.coplen]

Harry,

How is that a foul? You must be some rules I don't know about. I have been involved with gyroplanes for seven years. Sure, I talk to a lot of people who want to know about gyroplanes and I do have the oppurtunity to bring them to a PRA meetings. As an organization I think PRA needs that.


If you think I have an advantage over PRA members who are not dealers than maybe we should have a catagory for dealers. It wouold be great to get a number of dealers motivated to bring in new PRA members.

You have to know that if I won any bucks I would give the money I received to PRA. (I don't care about the bucks at all) I just like the challenge and I know we need new members. PRA is or should be the guiding force for our part of the avaition world. It is what we make it.

Randy

Randy

[GyroRon]

I agree with Randy,he should be allowed to participate but he is also a dealer so he has much more contacts to get membership from. I say make another contest for dealers only.

[Vance]

Hi, I beleive that if we all work together to make the sport better, bigger and safer we will all have more fun. I particularly want to support people who are trying to turn something that is so much fun into a living. As a retired motorcycle dealer I can tell you it is a very tough thing to do and everyone benifits from maximum work and cooperation. I could not have been successful without my customers helping with events and promation and I beleive that I helped them get more out of the sport. We are a very small and fragil sport and only through our pashion, hard work and cooperation will we all survive and prosper. Thank you, Vance

[barnstorm2]

If we start making exceptions to who can participate based on job function things will get unmanageable fast.

Lets use KISS theory. Keep It Simple

The purpose is to get PRA members signed up, not to make sure everyone has the same access to the public.

I timed the end of the drive, submission date and award date 1 week apart each so that any issues of reporting and fairness can be published and decided before final action is taken.

He can particapate in the Drive Contest.

If someone wants to start a 'Dealer Drive Contest' that is seperate that is fine but I think it will just distract from our goal.

[Fiesty]

Note:

one way to retain members is quit haggling!!!! What if he is a dealer?

Fiesty

[cgmg]

I have a suggestion for improving the PRA's coffers, so it can support more of the things people have been suggesting so far:

Let's increase the membership fees by $10 a head. With the current membership, that's an additional $30,000 income per year. $10 is a meal and a half at McDonald's, there isn't anyone in this organization who couldn't afford the price, and it wouldn't hurt any of us to miss those one and a half meals.

One of the bigger issues with our organization is one which plagues pretty much all volunteer organizations today. Everyone wants the other guy to do all the work, so we can enjoy the benefits. I'm just as guilty as the next guy of not helping the organization grow by helping out at our club's fly-ins. I have all the good excuses, too:

Our club meetings are 3 hours away. The closest member of my club is two hours away(and I haven't flown with him for over a year). My job involves working a lot of weekends and holidays. I don't get to fly enough, so I spend every available free moment trying to fly, and still only get 50 hours a year in. I don't know enough yet about gyros to be a big help to anyone. My wife resents any time I spend on gyros(not true, since she also flies, in the limited time she has). I can't afford to stay in a hotel, or take the extra time off work, while helping with fly-ins.

I'm sure anyone out there can use at least three of the above excuses. So let's do a relatively easy thing for all of us, give up the price of one and a half Macs, or 6 gallons of gas a year, and help the organization do more for those of us who at least pay for a membership.

Anyone who's a member of the board, let us know if we can send donations to the PRA for the extra $10. If so, let us know here, and my check will be in the mail the next day. Heck, I'll cover four others if we can, I had a good year income-wise last year.

Mark

[GyroRon]

Randy Brooks... the fact that the other Randy is a dealer means through his contacts he has a major upper hand advantage over the normal Pra member. If I were to try to win this prize I wouldn't try if I knew I was going to compete with gyro dealers and instructors and so on who probably make contact with several newbies a day asking for info.

I do think it is great to have the dealers push for more members as it would be easy for them and would probably have good results for the pra.

[Heron]

I think I missed Dean's post back there . . .
Dean:
I have a lot of respect for you and for many members of the PRA as individuals , I do not know many of the BOD.
Idid present sugestions, and even before I was a member (did not renew)
I had the intervention of Dave D. (miss you De Winter) to become a member and it took several e-mails to get it going.
I sent e-mail never answered, and I can turn this thing around if the quit been so sissy about many subjects.
Some concepts are totally idiotic and there is nothing geared up to the general public and to attract new people the PRA cater to itself and has become a clique.
The membership is capable of many things more and it only needs new ideas em some leadership to do it.
The magazine can be a separate deal and I will glad pay for subscription, it is a good magazine and worht the cost.
NOw to get my money (wich I do not have) without a proposal, and without caring about me as an individual trying to make it and be around gyro events they have to work a little harder.
Every chapter should have, under the guidance of the PRA, the single objective of making ONE new pilot and machine every year.
You have no idea of the buying power of 38 hundred members. do you know what downline means in networking?
It is time for them to take their heads of the sand and look around.
Look in the eyes of a person that sees a gyro flying for the first time and you see how easy is the task ahead.
I have my knuckles bleeding from knocking upon this door, and it makes me sick.
Inuendos? I want blunt, head first, in the chest, head on collision.
They all read this forum and they know my e-mail, just come and get me as a member!!!
I triple dare you . . .
Heron (feeling better now)
Love you Dean (Sensei)

[barnstorm2]

Mark,

I to would be happy to make a volunteer donation of $10 to the PRA.

I would be concerned about raising the PRA membership cost though. I used to be the director of MIS for a marking firm here in Cincinnati and I picked up a few things about price-points and the markets they are aimed at. You really dont know what the market performance is willing to bear without a thorough study. A price raise when you are trying to expand is difficult to make a success.

Ron,

If I recall, Randy is not in it for the money anyway. If the top two or three winners end up dealers I'll bet they would do the same as Randy. If not we can address that after the numbers are in. Hopefully we will get more donations for runner up positions and make it even more desireable. Being a dealer won't disqualify anyone but if they take all the top spots and winnings the winnings do not end up being motovational we can run the next one differntly.

Heron,

I will bring up the concept of a 1 pilot 1 machine commitment in the next PRA Chapter 34 Meeting. Perhaps some of the chapters can announce such a commitment and we can publish an ad/announcement in ROTORCRAFT and challange as many clubs as possible to sign on. Then we publish a sucess list at the end of each year.

These are exacly the kinds of ideas we need.

[Heron]

I will donate 10 bucks to any fund that is related to help the clubs and Chapters to acomplish that task.
Note: the chosen student or newcomer will have just a push to help him getting there, and that should be enough to create one new set per year (pilot/machine)
I will get back to the PRA if they just say something "official" in any of the forums.
Another thing, it has to be a line chapter - PRA, you join by joining a chapter of your choice.
It has to come from the BASES not from the so called "Top"
the ideas, directions and positions of the represented group.
If the magazine go open subsciption many people will buy it abroad, they seee no sense in becoming a member of a foreigner association, unless PRA decided to go World Wide wich I think it should after all it is the bigger one.
And bring De Winter and J.B. back now!!
I am so menacing, ain't I?
Heron

[Fiesty]

Are we in this for personnal gain or to benefit PRA and in the long run ourselves? Let the dealers get the members.
My 2-bits.

Fiesty

[Chuck Roberg]

I agree with the Fiesty Randy Brooks. We need the members and MORE member participation.

[quadrirotor]

actually, we need an economical, reliable and efficient gyro!!!!!!! too many blade strikes and so on!...when i see the PRA magazine of twenty years ago, it seems as if there is no progress in the gyro world!...

[barnstorm2]

With more members we will have a larger customer base for more efficient gyros and therefor attract manufactuers ect.

I would have to say there has been improvement with CLT and composit materials and auto engine conversions. Hopefully, no one is doing self training any more...


IMHO

[quadrirotor]

Gyrocopters:
Lots of noise and dreams of short takes off!!!!........... :-X
Actually very poor performances!... ::)
we'd better think at helicopters!... ;)
as De La Cierva did!!!!........ :)

[Chuck Irby]

Quadrirotor,

I , for one, do not understand your last post. In order for us to better understand where you're coming from, please state, for us, what experience you have with auto gyros.

Incidentally, it is a requirement of this forum, that you include your full name and where you reside. Please do that for us.

My sincere thanks,

Chuck

[quadrirotor]

You have read my post very well! The PRA-GYRO issue is related to the very poor performances of the Gyrocopters, even today! i implore, i beg to be convinced of the contrary!... I went to the gyro twenty years ago, i tried many gyros and it's always the same...problem: lots of noise and very poor ROC and so on!... :(
The truth must be said!...
the best jump-tk-off gyros are, in fact, helio!... ::)

[Chuck Irby]

Andre', thank you for updating your profile page.

Do I understand you correctly? Have you been flying gyro's for twenty years? If so, you have been flying the wrong machines. You need to go to Benson Days and see how well gyro's really can, and do fly.

[quadrirotor]

I did go to Okeechobe and Wachula Bensen days and i always found a bunch of runway-eaters!... ::)
The pity is that it's not only my point of view but also the point of view of many pilots around me!... :(


beneath, you have the best gyro of all times but as expensive to make as an helicopter!...

[PW_Plack]

I'd consider sending PRA an additional 10 bucks if I thought it would help. I don't.

For most members, PRA membership is just a very expensive decal and magazine subscription. Until there's more perceived benefit for belonging, asking for even more money will be an uphill battle.

[Chuck Irby]

Andre',

What gyro are you flying?

[quadrirotor]

Paul, i would give more (may be hundreds $) to have a PRA which could design an economical, safe, reliable and efficient bi-gyro!...
Instead, i have the feeling to waste my time with a dream!... ::)

[Heron]

Monsieur du Martin, la salvacion est arrivee'!
We've got engines and materials today that were not available 20 years ago and we can built a commercial gyroplane.
It is very close the time when you are going to pass an helio and wave bye bye. The only thing they can say is that they can hover (at an horrendous comparative price)
The manufacturers should be all out for new customers, but it does not seem so.
So as you see from the three legs , only one still stands, the interested public.
Heron

[quadrirotor]

Even with better materials and engines, the results todays are not very brillant!... :'(
An helicopter does not only hover (no runway investment!...) but for the same engine and same paid load, you have almost twice the rate of climb with the helio at all speed reachable by the gyro!... :o
You can compare the Safari (160hp, 500lb) with the Sportster (160hp, 500lb)... ;D
You are right...the price of an helio is otrageous! >:(
because if you take into accompt the price of the materials, number of parts and time to make them: the Safari is not very far from the Sportster with a good prerot. 8)
The problem is that we are involving people in dreams instead of unifiing efforts to make a dependable and viable helicopter!... :-

[barnstorm2]

André,

I appreciate that you want a cheap affordable helicopter.


However, I am quite sure I would rather have a gyroplane unless you can make a helicopter that is as simple to maintain, build and just as safe as a gyroplane.

I would turn your statement around and say that the helicopter community has failed ( so far ) to make a truly affordable, simple, reliable craft that is a safe as the gyroplane.

My hope is that someday consumer versions of the Hawk 4 and Carter Copter will be available and priced within reach of the general aviation enthusiast.

[Vance]

As a child I had dreams of breaking the shackles of the earths gravity, now I fly. Dreams are what got us out of the trees. Dreams and passion are everything that makes the human race progress. My dreams are neither cheap nor practical.

I love helicopters! When I fly helicopters, I dream of not having to work so hard to fly straight and level. I dream of not having to be on edge about an engine out. Every time I practice 180 autorotations I wonder if I will be fast enough and good enough to save myself and the ship in a real emergancy. I have to manage my rotor speed, air speed, flair height of about 40 feet, leveling the helicopter before the tail rotor digs a trench and I had better be nearly stoped when I touch down. The rate of decent limits my landing spots. Helicopters should not take off straight up or decend straight down. Helicopters should not hoover between 6 feet above ground level and 500 feet agl. When I study accident reports many of the fatalities could be me. I rode as a patient in the very Helicopter that crashed near Salt lake City when I tiped my motorcycle over at Bonniville.

Gyroplanes fulfill many of these dreams. I can relax at 300 feetand 60 knots over open terrain. I know that if I have an engine out I can put it down nearly anywhere. If the engine stops during my take off roll I can land without a large skill set. I find this reduced worklaod very pleasing. My takeoff is shorter than a properly executed helicopter takeoff. When I read about gyroplane accidents most of the time I can make myself beleive that I won't make that series of mistakes.

I love gyroplanes because of what they are and can do. I am grateful to the people on this forum and the PRA for sharing my passion. Without The PRA exemption I would not have been able to take dual instruction in an expermental gyroplane. The PRA is the future of our sport. Let us support them to the best of our ability. Thank You, Vance

[Vance]

Hi Quadrirotor, The sporster weighs 1100 lbs dry and the Safari weighs 1000 lbs. Im not sure if you are saying that a Safari is a poor helicopter or that the sporster is a good gyroplane as their performance envelops are close.

I am sorry that you don't have the helicopter you want, but throwing rocks at the people on this forum and gyroplanes is not going to raise you up and make you hover. :)Thank You, Vance

[Harry_S.]

Good, crisp post Vance. (hover-not-hoover)

I like Helos' too, they're fun to fly and offer more utility. My personal opinion is; Gyros' are more fun to fly and a hell of a lot cheaper to own and operate. I can afford a gyro but owning a helo, even a Brantly B2B, is beyond me.

[Vance]

Thank you Harry, I'm a Hiller fan myself. especialy c models. I beleive that they have the smallest dead man's curve and they seemed less inclined to tip over in a run on landing than a Robinson 22 or 44. I like the way a Robinson 44 flies cross country and the hydralic controls are nice but they fly funny when your load isn't proper and drop the nose as the fuel burns off. Thank You, Vance

[quadrirotor]

I see, Vance, you don't know what you are talking about!:

Sportster empty weight: 700lbs
Safari empty weight: 920lbs (2003 PRA directory) ;D

500lbs usefull load for both; for an engine of 150 hp; at gross:

At sea level, the cruise speed (75% power) is around 72 mph for the sportster and 82 mph for the Safari; the best R.O.C. is 450ft/min at 65 mph for the sportster and 1485 ft/min at 44 mph for the helio... ;D

At 4000 feet of altitude: R.O.C. gyro= 270 ft/min; helio=1000ft/min... ;D

Same altitude: a turn at 30°bank; marginal attitude for the gyro; 700ft/min for the helio... ;D

Let's the number speak, it would be interesting to have the actual numbers for a maximum of gyros:

to compile performances, it would be interesting to know:

name and type of your gyro or helio:
name and type of the rotor:.....;diameter:.........;cord:.....;profil:. ....;
name and type of engine:......; power:.....;réduction:........;
name and type of propeller:........;
weight dry:.........; gross:......;
at gross, distance to take off:......
at gross, best time to get from an altitude of 1000' to 2000':......;Air temp:......;
full gas, alone on board, distance to take off:......
full gas, alone on board, best time to get from an altitude of 1000' to 2000':......; Air temp.:


thanks in advance, for the benefit of everyone!. :)

Dirty Harry, of course, the price of theBrantly B2B has nothing to do with an homebuilt aircraft!.... ::)

The price of an homebuilt helio could be as cheap as the price of an advance gyro with a really good prerotator...only using a big Subaru could lessen the price ... :o

Vance, i am waiting for your numbers, the real ones if you are honest!... ;)

[Vance]

Quadrirotor, The information on weights was from Martin Hollman's book on the sporster and from Safari's web site on the Safari helicopter.
Acording to Hollman's book the sporster climbs at 700 fpm and tops out at 100 mph. Acording to Safari's site it climbs at 1000 fpm and tops out at 100 mph. I am sorry if I misinterpeted these figures.

The point I was trying to make was that each type has it's atvantages and they are all a lot of fun to fly. It is my opinion that you were saying that if people only knew as much as you, they would demand an affordible helicopter. Once agsin I am sorry if I misunderstood. I also did not understand why you would imagine that the PRA would have the resorces or inclination to design an affordible helicopter.

I beleive that the PRA's Job is to promote rotorcraft and I am gratefull to them for that. I too would like to see us do it better.

I'm not sure what you feel that I have not been honest about, I would be grateful if you would clear that up for me. Thank You Vance

[barnstorm2]

Quadrirotor,

Don't for get to add to your stats: :D

Cost per hour :
Min Altitute for safe engine out landing:
Min reaction time for safe engine out landing:
Ave maint time per hour:
Kit build time:
Cost of training:
Cost of Kit:
Rate of decent in autorotation:

We want to be honest and collect ALL data that is relevent to Affordable, efficient, safe and fun flying right? ;D

[pwendell]

Vance,

Those were some really good posts. If anywhere close to the amount of money that has been spent on Helicopter R&D had been spent on Autogyros, we would undoubtably have more technically advanced machines. I'm sure that there isn't one of us who can't think of several systems on our Gyros that couldn't be done better, cheaper and more reliably if only we had the resources to develope them. The Autogyro community has not had the advantage of large amounts of military money spent to solve technical problems and find new solutions. We are truly a community of Home Builders/Designers. That being said, there are truly some fine autogyros being produced that perform extremely well within their flight envelopes. There are also some real Pieces Of S*%t.

Andre, I might be wrong, and if I am I apologize, but I have the feeling you've been wanting to get into a Helicopter Vs. Autogyro debate since you started posting on Norm's forum. I'm not sure how valuable that is. Us rotorary wing folks are a small and odd breed. The fixed wingers mostly think we're all crazy, if they think about us at all. There's no reason to fight amongst ourselves over which type of craft is superior.

Just my two cents.

L

[Vance]

Thank you Peter. I agree. My wifes Porche makes better numbers than my svt Mustang but for me the Mustang is more fun. Fun is why I fly and how it feels is everything. If I have no particular destination how fast I can go doesn't matter. If I'm going to fly at 500 feet agl the climb rate doesn't matter. If I only fly on nice days the cabin doesn't matter.

I will admit that a Robinson 44 is nicer if I'm going cross country in a hurry for the same reason I will rent a Lincoln to go to bensen days.
Then I will have a reason to drive other than fun. For me for fun I like gyroplanes a lot. Thank you ,Vance

[gyroplanes]

This is my first post on this conference.
I'd like to return this thread to it's original subject, the PRA.
I have been on the PRA board for as long as I can remember and I take offense to the "incompetent" remark.
Certainly there have been some bad decisions made over the years and yes, there is some degree of incompetence in every human being. I believe this is why the PRA is run by a "Board" and not an individual.

As far as the membership contest goes, I applaud the initiative with both hands and feet. Everything that is wrong with the PRA can be rectified by an substantial increase in membership (not dues).
As for the unfair advantage the dealers might have. I'll toss out a idea that Mr. Dennis Fetters used when he owned Air Command. Dennis included a PRA membership application in every "info pack" he sold and gave a free one year membership with every gyro kit sold as well.
This idea multiplied when his dealers started to include the membership applications with their info packs and a few even followed Dennis with the free memberships.

One last thing. As I mentioned I have been on the board for a record amount of time. Seldom have I been contacted by members regarding PRA problems, suggestions or ideas in spite of having my name, address and phone numbers inside every issue of our magazine. Communication is a two way street.
Tom Milton, PRA Chapter 18 Pres.
PRA Board and Life member

[Greg Mitchell]

Gentlemen,

As the Australian/NewZealand Manufacturer/Distributor of Larry Neals range of gyro's we have in place a policy of not selling a kit to anyone who has not already engaged an instructor. Persons wishing to purchase a Butterfly/Monarch 'Down Under' must have a minimum of 10 hours training up their sleeve and most will not be signed off for solo until 15-20 hours are completed. Purchase of a kit also carries one year free membership to ASRA (effectively giving the member a second year of membership as the first year is covered in their student pack) and registration of craft once a Technical adviser has signed off on the craft. Constuction of the kit and sign off can easily be carried out during the final stages of official instruction.

This policy was put in place to
1. Ensure persons are undertaking official and effective training, by recognised ASRA Instructors.
2. Maintain a high standard of construction overseen by proper inspection processes, approved by ASRA.
3. Increase ASRA membership and to ensure persons are flying legally,
with respect to current registrations of machines and Bi-ennial Flight Review, ect..

ASRA in Australia is or will soon be the Only Official Organisation through which one may obtain a Gyro Certicate.

For Tim O'Connor.....Go get yourself a Monarch.....we guarentee continuity of service , supply and support for the Butterfly/Monarch as does Larry. I think your PRA/Gary Goldsberry allegiances have clouded your judgement in the way you attacked Larry Neal in such a personal manner.

Regards,

Mitch
2.

[Heron]

Tom Milton:
First of all welcome and stay long!
SEcond: To every rule there is an exception!
My remark was not directed to an individual but to the group that controls PRA as a whole.
I know that many people had good intentions and put out an effort to do right and I thank you for you efforts in particular.
There is no planning that I am aware of, It should be a master plan for 10 years and sub-plans for every term of office.
Goals clearly marked and phases for checking results.
We are talking about the biggest, supposedly the better association in the world and ir sure does not feel like it!
(rotorcraft that is)
It is poor, mediocre, lackluster to say the least.
What I know by other people's mouth is just their opinion, I do not have proof of anything it is bad and if anyone knows for sure then is just an acomplice to the crime.
It was non elegant the way they just dump some people from their amidst.
Lets take it over and turn it around!
If a company with the resources similar what the PRA has presents financial reports like those, the CEO will be fired!
There is no one at the helm . . .
Heron (currently not a share holder)
It is just my opinion (copyrights by R.A)

[barnstorm2]

Greg,

It is not this tread but the Monarch thread that I spoke of my business dealings with Larry Neal.

I certainly don't see what Gary or being a member of the PRA have to do with making people aware of bad customer service, broken commitments, lost parts and workmanship problems.

As far as an attack on Larry, I tried to make it clear that I think Larry is a fine fellow. However, a lot of fine fellows don't make good business choices or business men. My intention was to do as I would hope others would do for me.. warn people that are going to spend their hard earned money about how others were dealt with. In fact I certainly could have gone in to far more detail including photos, emails, dates etc. if my intention was to simply attack Larry.

Judging by the photos and videos the Monarch is a very impressive machine. I have heard nothing but good reviews. I sincerely hope that the other business partners of Larry such as yourself will give good support for the product for a very long time to come ( which is something I have not gotten with my re-drive )

I don't know where you get off saying this has anything to do with the PRA or other PRA members it is simply the facts of the matter and the transaction. No PRA member has ever tried to influence how I feel about my transactions with Larry other then those posted here on this forum. Unless I have gotten your post wrong and are trying to tell me that Larry only gives poor service to PRA members?

Rather, it seems you can not take the facts of a series of poor transactions and learn from them and assure that mistakes are not repeated, but instead lash out with a personal attack of your own making.

The very Monarch videos everyone is watching and impressed with are stored and distributed from a PRA chapter web server. It is in fact the PRAChapter34 web server. This is the chaper that Gary is a member of and I host this server in my very own house and donate much of the cost of its running to the Rotorcraft community.

Certainly if I had some ill evil political PRA motovations as you appairently accuse me of having I would not be spending my own hard earned resources on popularizing and advertizing your own Monarch Gyro???

An apology would be nice. ???

[barnstorm2]

Greg,

A few more thoughts..

On the positive side, I think your stated commitments to training and your 2 years of support for the local rotorcraft org is fantastic. A trend of this nature if it catches on to all other distributors / manufactures would be great.

A formal promise of long term support for the Monarch is welcome news indeed.

On the down side I hope you will not be accusing everyone who has problems with your business partner's transactions as having problems because they are PRA members and are only trying to make personal attacks. Addressing the issues by showing your good support and written commitments to continuing support would be the proper response from a businessman I would think.

I also would think your apology should include the PRA, it's members and Gary.

Your statements were made as a representative of your company no?

[barnstorm2]

Hi Tom! ;D

Welcome to the Forum!

Well said, and good to know.

[Greg Mitchell]

Tim,

I am only going to respond one time and one time only.

Larry is not my partner and I never said he was. I am proud to be associated with Larry and his craft.

I know where it was that you posted. And I believe with what you posted and the number of times you kept comming back, even after diplomatic suggestions, by others, that you sort it in some other way, you persisted to print.

Goodness gracious me, Tim, your double post here seems indicative of your overall intent. If you believe my post was a personal attack against you or any PRA Member, then that's your opinion. Check your PRA records, I'm paid up. Go back and read your posts, then apologise to Larry, after you do so publicly, I would be happy to do the same for you and would expect that we could communicate in a friendly business like manner.

These statements are made by myself as a gyro enthusiast and I thank you for the NICE things you have said about some of my companies business platforms. I certainly appreciate the effort you put into this forum Tim.

Best regards,

Mitch

[birdy]

Mitch,ol mate,wadaya do'n ere. :D
Play'n with the MF's comput again and I see your name. ???
Is there some kind of sh.. fight on this forum as well?? ::)

Reckon I should air me views ere or not?? ;)

[Greg Mitchell]

Birdman,

Apparently you can say what you want, depending on who you are. Some play pretty rough here Birdy, not sure about how much fun it would be either, but go ahead, Slam Dunk Birdman.

Mitch

[Chuck Irby]

Birdy and Greg,

Normally, it's not like this here. Please forgive us for the way some of us have conducted ourselves and come across lately. For the most part, we are just a bunch guys who love to play with our weird flying machines and try to help each other. 99.9% of the time we all get along quite well together.

[Heron]

Well . . .this is what I think this Forum serves best!
People say what they want, get answers, sometimes disagreements and it will be sorted out here where it started.
I believe every one has good intent and sometimes the words come out wrong or a little strong, that is allright . . .
Tim said his piece on his dealings with Larry, it is his opinon and his side of the proverbial coin, he has the right to do so,as Greg has the right to defend Larry and confront Tim, we watch and participate if we want or just let it slide.
I have spoken to Larry on this matter and he told me his side and he likes to keep the matters private between him and Tim, and he is too busy now to be disctracted.
It is his prerrogative!
Now Greg and Tim make up and kiss and lets move on!
Of course if you want to, it is your prerrogative
Heron

[Rotornut]

Heron you said

I have spoken to Larry on this matter and he told me his side and he likes to keep the matters private between him and Tim, and he is too busy now to be disctracted.
It is his prerrogative!

Yes it is his choice, but to say that he can not be distracted is not good. Customers are not distractions they are customers.

Larry jump in here.

I like the Butterfly design and have faith in Larry.
Time will Tell. MJ :)

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Chuck,

Thankyou. I will be posting from time to time, essentially I am here to learn and appreciate the technology and the human input required to run such a forum. Thanks to all of you who contribute, especially Todd.

To be able to communicate with fellow gyro enthusiasts is very important in growing our sport, or in Birdy's case, part of his livelyhood, mustering cattle with his trusty Rosco gyro. We are all looking for a place to gather and share our thoughts and learn. I agree we need to do this in a manner that is condusive to people wanting to come back and be involved.

Mate, after all, we just wanna have some fun and go fly and come back talk about our experiences and go fly again, least ways, thats been my impression of most gyro folk.

Chuck, as an international PRA Member, I do feel somewhat handicapped. If you guys in the States don't know what's happening and if the fragmentation of the PRA Membership continues, where does that leave me..........waiting at my letter box for my Rotorcraft Magazine, five weeks after you get it...........it leaves me with one less source of information and in the long run thats not good for the Gyro Community world wide.

If I could be so bold, maybe someone could give us here in OZ, a brief overview of what has been happening, with board members resignations or walk outs, without having to sling mud, why does there seem to be so much buzz around that things are all going to S#*T. Is there a division between Camps within the PRA Board ? If you followed the ASRA Board and published the minutes of the meetings, individual members get a much better insight into which board members are effectively moving the organisation forward, and as a PRA Member I personally would like to know more about whats happening than I presently do.

Thanks Chuck, looking forward.....

Mitch

[Chuck Irby]

Hello Mitch,

Thank you for your post and the way you expressed yourself.

I am not qualified to answer your question re the PRA. Maybe someone else will jump in and do that for you.

I just enjoy flying and appreciate the help many on this forum have been to me, and occasionally, when I feel that I am qualified, I try to pass it on by helping someone else.

[GyroRon]

I think Tim's issues with Larry are valid if what he said happened really happened. A lot of people bought those Re drives and if I had one on my gyro I would really hope the company that made it could still support it in a timely manner. If not then it is a expensive piece of junk and that reflects again on the companys other products because who knows if that will happen in three or four years down the road with the new products?

I don't know if Tim needed to post it here, but if all he said is true then I think he did us all a favor by doing so. I now know by reading his posts that If I go to look at buying a used gyro, if it has one of Larrys re drives, I can possibly expect a tough time geting it serviced. So that gives me a heads up.

I do expect the Butterfly will be around for a while as long as they keep the price down. So I wouldn't be scared to buy a butterfly based on Tims comments.

[birdy]

Gees,you yanks are on the ball. ;)

Bit o rough an tumble is good Mitch,like the air,keeps things interesting. 8)

You yanks don't have to worry, I am only look'n[advice from az Paul].
I wont bore you with my crap,just interested in what you blokes get up to over there.

Chuck,mate
You hit the nail on the head,you's are a bunch of blokes who love play'n with gyros.I do too,sometimes,but most times I'm not play'n,and that is the message i'm trying to get in to paul.

[barnstorm2]

Greg,

My mail box and voice mail still have no reply from Larry. My prop plate still wobbles. And as stated Larry is still too busy with current projects to worry about past products and customers.

You still have not told me what any of this has to do with the PRA and Gary as you stated in your post:

"I think your PRA/Gary Goldsberry allegiances have clouded your judgement in the way you attacked Larry Neal in such a personal manner."

If I was hell bent to flame Larry and put down the Monarch I would not be saying that Larry is a good guy, I would be posting a more detailed log of the transaction problems along with photos and I would not be hosting Monarch videos to popularize the craft on my own server using my own bandwidth. I noticed lots of hits on my server from your homeland and that my server's address has been posted on the 'aussie' board. Some of your sales may even end up a direct result of my trying to help show off the Monarch's abilities.

My intention was simply to do the same thing as found often on the internet Warning: watch out for customer service issues.

Several people posted back saying that have have had good experiences with Larry and no one else posted back saying that they have had bad experieces with Larry. The reader can then be warned and make their own judgement.

That is the way it works.

I have made efforts to contact Larry to resolve this and no response has been forthcoming. :-[

I would like to know what all this as to do with "allegiances" and "clouded judgement"? I think it has to do with bad service, communication and a prop plate that wobbles and a prop wont fit to properly.

[Chuck Irby]

Thanx Birdy,

It's good to have you and Greg with us. Welcome!!

[rehler]

Greg Mitchel, you stated: "Persons wishing to purchase a Butterfly/Monarch 'Down Under' must have a minimum of 10 hours training up their sleeve and most will not be signed off for solo until 15-20 hours are completed."

In my opinion this is totally out of line. It appears to be self serving by instructors to make them more money, even though I am sure it is thought to be for "safety" of the student pilot. The reason I believe this, is that most students who are already pilots need much less training to be a safe gyro pilot. I had only 3 hours, but I think about 5 or 6 would have been better. Most pilots I know soloed fixed wing aircraft is less than 10 hours and gyros are not more difficult to fly. For example, I soloed (fixed wing) in 7 hours and am not an exception.

The rule should allow the instructor to accept the new gyro pilot when he feels the student can safely fly the gyro. This should be different with each pilot, depending on his experience and skills. As a minimum, 10 hours is too high. And 15 to 20 hours is way too high for someone learning in a well designed gyro like the Marnarch. Learning in an RAF may be different, as I understand requires a lot more time to master.

[Chuck Irby]

Ken,

I totally agree with you.

In addition to the problems you touched on, I discovered, first hand, that there are some who will teach you very little and take your money as long as you will give to them. These people should be forced out of business, in my opinion.

[Aussie_Paul]

Ken, just as a matter of interest.
When I was training in the stock stabless Raf,

1) student with no previous experience would take an average of 25 to 30 hours to reach solo stage.

2) Other aeronautical experience a little less.

Enter Raf with a stab. Now the

1) student could do it in 15 to 20 and

2) 12 to 15

Now enter Hybrid

1) student now 10 to 15

2) 5 to 10

Of course these are averages, and for comparison purposes. They are not exact, BUT do reflect my experience over the last 17 years of powered gyroplane training.

What this has told me is that the more stable you make the any gyro, including the training aircraft the quicker and easier that the student learns. With a stable trainer you can spend more time with emergency procedures as you don't have to spend so much time learning to fly straight and level.

It has been said to me that if you train in a stable gyro then it is difficult and dangerous for the student to fly his own unstable machine!!!!!!!!

A responsible instructor will not accept that the student will be flying an unstable gyro. It has been said that if the student has spent their money on an unstable machine that I should train them to fly it rather than insist that they spend more money to change it!!!!

As in all my previous posts on this subject, I train in a stable gyroplane and will not solo students into an unstable machine. That is my duty of care.

If the student will not accept my advice, then they find another instructor. I have had numerous students now approach me for training and when I find that their "pride and joy" is incorrectly designed unstable gyroplane, I explain why and how to fix it. The simple question is do you want to learn to fly the equivalent of a unicycle, or a bicycle?

I have never lost one customer.

If you understand the aerodynamics and physics of how gyroplanes, and for that matter all aircraft operate, it is quite easy to explain in a convincing and understandable manner. Students soon realise that an instructor who ums and ahs when answering basic questions does not really understand the basics.

Unfortunately the word has a lot of instructors like that as I was probably only 6 years ago.

It was easier to explain with the Raf because it is so unstable without an "effective" stab, and reasonably stable with the "effective" stab.

I would remove the stab and they could see the difference straight away. I don't feel like having an unstable trainer just to prove the point, so I refer them to my ex students and let them explain in students language.

Personal opinions of;

Aussie Paul.

[Gordon Gibson]

Three Cheers Paul, it's good that you are training in a "bicycle" (or maybe it's even a "tricycle") instead of a unicycle.
This mentality that students should be trained in less-stable gyros just because 'they will eventually go onto their own that is like that' is counter-productive to the growth or our movement worldwide I reckon.

[Greg Mitchell]

Ken Rehler, wrote

Greg Mitchel, you stated: "Persons wishing to purchase a Butterfly/Monarch 'Down Under' must have a minimum of 10 hours training up their sleeve and most will not be signed off for solo until 15-20 hours are completed."In my opinion this is totally out of line.

Things are done a little differently in Australia Ken when it comes down to training. 15 hours is the minimum required for most. There may be exceptions for previous fixwingers experience taken into account, but when I look at accident reports from around the world and read comments from different forums, it appears that a very large percentage of those accidents are fixed wingers with low hours in the gyro and maybe not even signed off for solo.

We only attempted to put in place a policy that would at minimum, ensure potential clients buying Butterflys/Monarchs be trained to a level where by if they attempted to step out side of their instructors advice, might have enough skills by this time not to end up killing themselves.

Incidently, here in OZ if you want to go and get your fixed wing Ultralight pilots license you have to do 15 to 20 hours also. It would be interesting to look at the accident figures, pro rata, between the two countires to see how things stack up.

I hope this sheds some light on our situation and intentions Ken.

Regards,

Mitch

[Greg Mitchell]

Hello Paul,

Good post, perhaps as an OZ Chief Flying Instructor, you could post details of minimum required times to solo stage for both non flyers and previous fixed wing experience. Are you entitled under the Opps Manual to sign off for solo a previous fixed winger at 5 hours and if so have you ever done so? Official ASRA requirements only please, and perhaps any comparative accident stats.

Cheers,

Mitch.

[Greg Mitchell]

Gidday Tim,

Good to see you have ventured down under with your first post. We can keep you posted on the Aussie vernacular and collocialisms but it's not too difficult once you get into it. PTKAY from Poland seems to have found his way.

Tim, let's put a little ice on to calm things down. I really am only trying to understand why you feel it is so important post in such an emotive manner, I have no problem with your concerns, if as Ron said, things happened the way you said they did.

However, I would hope that those of you closer to the higher echelons of the PRA would be endeavouring to assist a new gyroplane manufacturer, especially one who has developed such a craft.

It is apparent from reading the posts here and on the Rotorcraft Forum that other manufacturers that are snowed under seem to be given a little more leeway and curtesy. Just an observation.

Please, don't try and read too much into my one line comment re; PRA/Goldsberry. It was only one sentence after all, not several posts, dragging up the same old, same old.

Now if we can get past, previous communications, perhaps you could email me privately if you like or you could post here, your interpretations of what is happening at the Board level. As a PRA member, I feel I am entitled to some sort of overview regarding the situation ??? Gary is in your Club and you may have more information regarding what's happening.

Regards,

Mitch.

[barnstorm2]

Greg,

( or is it Mitch as you sign your email? )

I have been a lurker on the down under board from time to time. I don’t read through the treads much but rather I have been doing research. I use the search function for discussions on topics I need help with such as Subaru cooling and the like.

I had been scratching my head over a term used when I came across the ‘lurkers’ thread and could not resist a post.

Now that Norm’s forum is down :( ( but hopefully not out ) our research options have been reduced greatly. This forum is great but has not been around long enough to have all the eclectic tech info I love to browse. The down under forum has a wealth of info after you figger out that a bonnet is not a hat (or is it) ??? ?

Just as you have what I do not doubt is a well earned trust and friendship with Larry, I view Gary G. this way as well. Thus I to am quite defensive when it comes to accusations about him or the PRA. Gary is my flight instructor and mentor. He does not have the extrovert personality of my first instructor Steve McGowan but still waters run deep indeed! Gary has a wealth of knowledge, insight and rotorcraft skill that is expressed more subtly than one might expect.

I am not a PRA officer, nor do I get much insight on the happenings of the PRA board. I never ask Gary about these things. I use his brain by getting him to teach me building techniques and how to fly. I could tell you much about the Chapter 34 issues and meeting minutes but I doubt little of this would be of interest to other chapters much less chapters in another county.

I am just an over budget and over schedule gyro builder that wants to evangelize the sport and enjoy the flying. I apologize for going on about the same old, same old. In the computer network forums I have membership in it is considered your ‘civic duty’ to blow the whistle on vendors that leave you in a lurch. When screaming for help is no longer working you can at least scream a warning to others.

For much of my life I designed and installed networks. No matter how prepared I was on occasion there would be an installation that would go amiss through no intended fault of the customer or myself. I hope that is what has happened here.

I will not speak of the issue again unless it is solved in which case I will let all know things have been made right.

I hope the Monarch and Butterfly sell well, I always have. I also hope that all vendors that are selling safe stable gyros have great and growing sales. The innovations seen in the Monarch are impressive indeed and I look forward to examining one in person.

My interpretation of what is going on at the top of the PRA is drawn almost wholly from the posts seen on this forum by members such as Tom. It seems everyone thinks the PRA should be doing this and that and this and that and everyone’s list of this and that are different.

I would bet that if we got together and did these things ourselves the PRA would support us in the efforts and perhaps that is what they are best positioned to do until the membership numbers are back up again.

Fly safe.

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Tim,

Mate, thankyou. I appreciate your comments and hard work. I look forward to some great discussions.

Yes a Bonnet is a hat, and the hood of a motor vehicle.

Cheers,

Mitch.

[Heron]

Ok, its passed midnight, I am pretty tired (we started at 8 today) but as I did not turn in to a werewolf I will give it a try.
First lets sort things out:

Larry X Tim is one issue, it has to go back to private, Larry's actual e-mail is thebutterfly612@earthlink.net, he will directly deal with Tim and that has to be their business for a while.
Tim is not happy and vented his frustration here, maybe after it is sorted out he will clarify to all and all it is going to be allright.
M.J. it was not what I said, it is your conclusion.

PRA and such, another issue
It was crappy when I got involved and still crappy today, 3 years have passed, I do not feel like helping the status quo, but I have been helping the chapters as I can.
They do not have a clue about running an association that big and making it work.
If you are happy with your little old gyro that is only capable of a few paterns few times a year fine, this pRA suits just fine.
If you want more and want do see events like Benses days and the National convention be all they can be then we need changes of direction and atitudes.
My back ground allows me to analyse and evaluate this situations with certain depth, it can be done and it will be great.
Lets drop the Tim/Larry issue and let them sort it out
Lets talk some more about the PRA and maybe we can get some good ideas going and all will be happy.
PRA sucks big time!
Heron

[barnstorm2]

Heron,

Can you post a draft agenda of the actions you think the PRA should be taking?

[Heron]

Good morning all!
Promote giro aviation to the general public.
Have a closer relationship with its members and manufacturers (are they especial members?)
More agressive web page and rank it higher.
Better link PRA/Chapters, they are the PRA base and foundation.
Have programs for new pilots/machines.
Promote at least 4 big fly-ins a year and rotate the National convention every year, create a system where those that want to host the National Convention have to apply for it and compete for that position.
Make it BIG as it should be, this is the biggest in the world in the number 1 country in the world (yes)
and finally, have something to say and an official word on every subject related to gyros
You want a challenge? here it is: get this Texas Chapter back!
Convince this dedicated, hard working good people to go back and become a Chapter again.
Remember . . .the members are the PRA! Not the BOD . . .
Heron

[barnstorm2]

Thank you Heron!

This should make the discussion much more productive.


1. Promote giro aviation to the general public.

2. Have a closer relationship with its members and manufacturers (are they especial members?)

3. More aggressive web page and rank it higher.

4. Better link PRA/Chapters, they are the PRA base and foundation.

5. Have programs for new pilots/machines.

6. Promote at least 4 big fly-ins a year and rotate the National convention every year.

7. Create a system where those that want to host the National Convention have to apply for it and compete for that position.

8. Increase the size of the national convention.

9. Have something to say and an official word on every subject related to gyros

10. Get the Texas Chapter back!

[rehler]

Tim,

What did you mean by: "Get the Texas Chapter back!"?

Did one of the Texas chapters fold? If so, which one?

Thanks.

[Vance]

Heron and Tim, Nicely done!! thank you, Vance

[barnstorm2]

All of these issues sound great to me.

Here is my 2-cent on each...

1. Promote giro aviation to the general public.

I think this is the first priority. Please help get the word out about our membership drive. Until this is done I doubt we can accomplish many of the other tasks much less survive.

2. Have a closer relationship with its members and manufacturers (are they especial members?)

Suggestions? Does the PRA have a Mfg. ambassidor?

3. More aggressive web page and rank it higher.

Rank it higher? If you mean Google rankings it comes up 3rd on the search word gyroplane.

Does anyone know if the PRA website is finished or still under construction? The 'companies' and 'store' page seem unfinished but most all else works.

Agressive is a matter of style, $, and compatabilty ( Macromedia player ect.. )

What suggestions do you have?

4. Better link PRA/Chapters, they are the PRA base and foundation.

Do you mean the web page still or better communications with the chapter presidents? Here is the chapters page:

http://www.pra.org/localChapters.php

Perhaps in the 'NEWS' section there could be events at chapters?

5. Have programs for new pilots/machines.

More detail please.

6. Promote at least 4 big fly-ins a year and rotate the National convention every year.

This sounds great but will cost $. I must selfishly admit that I like where it is now cause it is somewhat close and we have a great airport there that we FULLY control. That is hard to beat.

7. Create a system where those that want to host the National Convention have to apply for it and compete for that position.

Competion is good.

8. Increase the size of the national convention.

See #1. Outside of advertising how else can we promote the national convetion?

9. Have something to say and an official word on every subject related to gyros

Here is the current FAQ:

http://www.pra.org/localChapters.php

What should we add?


10. Get the Texas Chapter back!

Where did it go? ( I am not trying to be a smart A$$, I don't know the history of this issue )

[Rotornut]

Heron, Are you a member of PRA? Are you a member of a PRA Chapter? MJ

[GyroRon]

Oh no, Mj got him! ;D

my two cents, I know Mentone has to be nice - I have never been - but until we start treating our fly ins like Fixed wing aviation treats theirs I think we will have a hard time attracting more people. Most of the gyro fly ins are in Small towns and off the beaten path. And both of the two largest fly ins - Bensen Days and Mentone - are held a week or so prior to the big fly ins - Sun n Fun and Oskosh. This just makes zero sence to me, Why hold a fly in where someone who can only take a limited time off work has to choose which one to attend? Me for example.... I have been asked by nearly all of my fixed wing friends if I want to go down to Sun n Fun with them. I really want to go as I have never been, But if I go to Bensen Days at all there is no way to go back a week later for Sun N fun. If it was the same week I could go down and see both. Or if there was more time between the Fly ins I could do both. But I have to choose. This year it will be Bensen Days, but next year I may do SNF.

At SNF they have a nearby lake that they fly the sea planes out of and this appears to be successful. I have talked to many people that go to SNF and they say they normally break off for a day and go to this lake to watch the float planes. If we had Bensen Days the same week and had it closer to Lakeland - such as F.O.F. or any of the smaller airports near Lakelake, I bet we would double our visitor attendance. Maybe triple. More visitors = more people getting hooked on gyros = more PRA members and a better for the whole segment of gyro aviation.

[Rotornut]

Ron, Good Points. Richard and Davie Seace will be attending SNF for Thursday, Friday, Saturday and taking their machines to fly and show. We shall see were this will all lead. The pattern the gyros have to fly at SNF is no Picnic and many gyro pilots can attest to this. We have to look at all in the picture. We will learn more and let you know what we find out. As for FOF, they have been invited to be our Guest for the Banquet and Fly-In at BD Days and we will see if they take us up on this offer, and let us show our Wares so to speak. Thanks Ron, MJ :)

[GyroRon]

No problem Mj, glad to hear FOF might be coming to see us and glad Richard and Davey will be at SNF.

I don't want us to have Bensen Days AT sun n fun though, just on the same week and close enough that it would be a viable alternative thing for the general SNF public to take a day off from lake land and come see us.

Believe me I love the airport at Wauchula. And I love the low amount of fixed wing traffic we have to deal with there and the amount of freedom we have to buzz the cow fields and so on. But to keep it a lowkey off the beaten path type event will only attract the diehards and let's face it, there is less and less diehards as each year goes by. Pretty soon if we don't do anthing the only people left flying gyros will be Jose in P.Rico and John Stevens in Atlanta! Well heck by then maybe.... just maybe.... Heron will be in the air too.

[Rotornut]

Ron, A Very Big Problem for any club hosting a major fly-in, is Insurance Coverage and Amount needed. Also some airports will not Even Allow us to hold a Overnight Fly-in at the airport. Then their is the Power problem, Showers, Food Vendor, the list goes on and on. Just When you think you have it all in order a monkey is throwed in the mix.

Sunstate is growing, and many New Members want to Help and this is a Very Good Thing and a Positive Step for us. With Davie Seace as VP and we all know his love of a Gyro, and Richards dedication, and Bud's Guidance, and Charlies No NonSense Rules, we will become stronger, Bigger.

To us this is Family and a Love of a Sport that Richard enjoys and I enjoy the People. Thanks to Bud O'Neal Richard is Hooked. We hope that by being part of BD Days and helping that we will get even stronger and bigger than ever. Being the biggest club was always a dream for Me, and Charlie encouraged it. So I still fight like heck to sign up a new member any chance I get.

Might have Fred Towell back in the Club by BD Days!
Almost had it done today, but will finish him off at BD Days. LOL

Hey Craig Wall > Will you make it down for BD Days? You missed New Years unlike you! MJ :)

[Heron]

M.J. are you picking on me?
Are you still the treasurer?
I am a member of Sunstate, forgot?
I am also a member of the Texas Rotorcraft Association, great bunch of guys . . .
Also I am honorary member of the Imokalee Bunch, I even have a pic of Fred Towel showing his tities to my camera, but that was an intimate moment you know?
I was a member in the PRA, but did not renew my membership, I got to vote for the BOD and out of 4 I nailed 3 representatives, Ora Cook did not get it.
I love the Sunstate Club, it is a great group of people and they always make me feel at home, the efforts put out for BS are enormous and I saw your tired face last year, it is grinding!!!
Let me tell you what I did in Brazil before coming to America (other than be a pro basketball ref)
I was the equivalent of the county authority in sports (like a sheriff) and my conty has 52 cities and 220 km from side to side, it is bigger than Puerto Rico.
We had 3 sections and the central office and a total of 19 people working. There are 13 sports (all olimpic) and soccer as its own division, plus recreational games another division.
Working with the cities secretary of sports we had to manage all school events in 3 categories (age) and the adult regional and sub regional events (city x city)
Schedule games, refs, courts, transportation, food, lodging and find time to have a beer and a date after 11 o'clock p.m.
I reported to the Chief of State Division, the secretary of state and sometimes to the Governor (seldom)
Bensen Days as it is today, would be a walk in the park to organize and execute.
Main thing that is missing: media coverage, nobody knows about it outside gyro arena, and it is reputed as one of the biggest gathering of gyros in the world (2nd maybe?)
One day I tell you more about the State regionals and the Open Games a yearly competition with 10 thousand athletes in 10 days. Just a mini Olimpics!
I wish Sunstate would transform Bensen Day in a trade mark, open BD, Inc and BensenDAys.com and start producing logo gear and make it a bussiness year round, it already has a few thousand customers world wide.
Remember my suggestion to Richard to park a couple of trailers there and transform them in to dorms? They make wonderfull quarters with a littel a/c.
I love you all and have a blast getting news from you and it makes me sick when one of us (I included myself) is facing this little curve balls thown by LIFE!!!
Quit trying to poke me, it just makes me laugh, I will always like you no matter what!
Heron

Ah . . .one more thing! My older sister is the Principal on the biggest school in my home town Bauru, 7 thousand students in 3 shifts, can you picture this?
Thats what I am talking about. . . .

[barnstorm2]

Heron,

That is impressive. What was your budget? How much was the staff payroll?

I wish we could rent out airports like stadiums. ???

[PW_Plack]

You guys all need to decide what a gyro fly-in like Bensen Days has as its goal. If it's to create the ideal atmosphere for gyro pilots, then it's great the way it is, low-key and hidden. If the purpose is to get gyros in front of the public, then you'll have to take it where the public already is gathered! People who haven't already seen gyros somewhere else won't be coming to Wauchula.

If you aren't willing to put up with the hassle of flying at an event like Sun 'n' Fun, then you'll miss the promotional opportunity. Perhaps the best option would be to hold them the same week, and designate one day when the gyros will leave Wauchula in the morning, and descend on Lakeland. Go as a group so the landing is a spectacle. Spend the rest of the week under the tree with a lemonade at Wauchula, talking with people from SNF who came to Wauchula because they saw you fly at Lakeland.

Ask the guys who brought gyros to the EAA Northwest Fly-in at Arlington, WA last summer. It's the northwest's sister event to SNF. The Groen/AAI booth was in the ultralight area, and other homebuilt gyros landed and tied down next to it. Big crowds gathered to ask questions about the Sparrowhawk, Gary Kaminski's RAF, and I think John Landry had his beautiful Gyrobee there part of the week. If they'd gone instead to some cow pasture, they'd probably have had more relaxed flying, but nobody but gyro pilots would have showed up.

[barnstorm2]

That sounds like the ticket.

As a lower time pilot I would not be up for flying my gyro at BDays if it were busy like SnF. But a good field and a sky full of gyros I can deal with.

Lots of press and just the right kind of audience is at SnF and it does not cost a nickel of promotion.

Fly in. Impress as we always do. Fly out and invite them to visit.

Seems you get the best of both worlds ;D

[Heron]

Tim:
Brazil is a gigantic country with problems matching its size, I did all that for a salary of 150 dollars (monthly) I could only survive been a ref and also a PE teacher (yes 3 jobs).
My first job in America was with Burger King at 185 a week, making salads, swiping floors ans helping translating for the spanish speaking crew.
Of course we had some "perks" like flexible schedule, traveling paid and per diem, and all the party you can imagine.
Take a wild guess wich sport is the number one in crowd and money in Brazil? No . . .not soccer (we still number 1)
Bull rodeo, yes we have the biggest in the world, you have to book a hotel 2 years in advance, just check with Gart Brooks, he had a blast going there.
Back to gyros: we need to get our best machines out there and market its qualities openly in the media, we do hav an excelent aircraft.
Some fly-ins are too big and important to be treated like an amateur event, there always going to be that camaraderie and the cozy moments around and under the three.
If every chapter can promote one new pilot and machine per year, how many new members we can make a year?
Why am I not a PRA Member if I am a Chapter Member, what kind of perverted policy is this?
See my point? my efforts at this end do not reflect in the other, the BOD is out of reach, alieanated from the bases.
I have been around Texas R.A. for 3 months now and did not say a word until I decided to join, than I spoke with both the President and the Vice on what the goals are and the direction they want to go and how can I help.
Another thing, there are lots of open field to fly when you have decent weather, so there is no need for a "wrong"machine to be present in official fly-ins , lets police ourselves and make the best out of our efforts.
Got to go, long road ahead to Anaheim, Ca. my connection is waiting for me there. heheheheheh (oops sorry Larry G.)
Heron

[GeneWeber]

Hi Dean,

This is my 3rd year as a PRA member. I’ve read your posts before about “we are the PRA” and I agree to a point. The leadership has to take responsibility for the “health” of the organization. To say we can’t do things because we lack membership and therefore lack funds takes the focus off the underlying problems. Organizations grow when there is charismatic leadership and a vision. The PRA lacks both.

This is where people usually say, “Ok then you should get involved and provide leadership or vision”. It appears that a few folks tried that and ran straight into a brick wall. Yes, it’s unfair to stand in the crowd and complain. And, yes communications is a two way street. But the leadership of the PRA is far too aloof from its membership. Meeting minutes should be published in RotorCraft. The president should be directly elected by PRA members.

Many of us have heard of infighting on the PRA board. Kathy Fields left under unfriendly circumstances. So now in this issue of PRA magazine, I see Chuck Beaty has been replaced as technical editor by Rusty Nance. Chuck may have left on happy or unhappy terms. Readers are left to guess because no one clues the members in. I’d think they would have written a small than you article, not only because Chuck deserves it, but also to try and start building some positive image.

What are the visions and goals of the PRA leadership? Publishing another issue or two of RotorCraft if membership reaches a certain level? If they have more lofty goals they should promote them. That would hold current members and attract new ones.

Here are a few suggestions:

·   Dr. J. Gordon Leishman author and professor of Aerospace Engineering at the University of Maryland has interest in Gyroplanes, and presented at the Hofstra University conference. The man is quite approachable, and I spoke to him for some time. Instead of debating aerodynamic principles of gyroplanes, why not enlist the aid of a University for research. I’m sure a doctoral candidate could get an excellent thesis out of some of the issue we argue about, and use a university wind tunnel and lab to prove out conclusions.

·   Work on our image. Admit that we don’t have a fabulous image in the aviation community and focus on changing that. I’d suggest our leadership contacting the EAA leadership directly and ask for guidance. Come up with a phased plan and popularize it with the membership.

·   Focus on safety. It has been noted that this is a focus, and I’m glad for that. Again a plan with definite measurable objectives should be popularized with the membership. (Side bar idea: I’m and Electrical Engineer/Computer Scientist. There are others with similar and complimentary skills that would allow us together to design a relatively inexpensive gyroplane “black box” that could monitor a few key flight parameters. If the PRA could promote the installation of these at cost in all new gyroplanes, we might learn from the sad accidents that take place several times a year instead of always guessing at what happened. Again this might work well in conjunction with a University.)

I don’t think the current leaders are idiots as has been suggested. I do question if they have any vision, or if this is just a good old boy organization. I won’t talk anyone into joining until I see some sign of vision. And if another gyroplane organization sprang up in the interim, you can bet I’d give them a try.

Regards,

Gene

[wheacock]

There will always be a small group of disgruntled people that have been offended by something the organization did, didn't do, or somehow went a different direction than what that individual suggested. They then go around badmouthing the organization at every turn. They have the need to justify (or rationalize)their offense.
I beleive they know who they are...
Then there are good people like Heron that believe it to a point that they spread it like fact.
I suggest to people that they stop listening to second and third hand gossip about the PRA. There is so much false information out there it is laughable.

It's the future we're are interested in. We have the ability to make it anything we want, but it takes individual effort.
This initiative to grow the membership is exactly that!!!
Well Done!
Bill

[Aussie_Paul]

Well said Bill.

Aussie Paul PRA member since 1982, and my father was a member in the 60's.

[GeneWeber]

Hi Bill,

I’m not sure if your statement about second and third hand gossip was directed at me or not. My statements were based on conversations with a PRA board member, and with Stu Fields. Yes they are disgruntled, and there are always two sides to every story. Then again, where there’s smoke, there’s usually fire.

I agree that the PRA members should make our PRA what we want it to be. How about we get the minutes of board meetings published for the membership? How about we push to have the officers directly elected by the membership? How about giving members the right to have amendments to the PRA by-laws, (or constitution or whatever it’s called) suggested by any member, and voted on by the majority of members? (Does the majority of the membership agree that only life members can be on the board, or that board members must attend a certain number of fly-ins? The latter means Paul and his father could not be board members unless they are quite wealthy and have lots of time to travel.)

This organization was set up by Bensen to market his product, not as democratic organization guided by its membership.

Hey, maybe I’m just looking for something different than the majority of the PRA membership. I want an organization (and a forum for that matter) that’s focused squarely on the technical aspects of building and flying gyroplanes.

I'll shut up now. :-X

Regards,

Gene

[Rotornut]

Gene, Dont shut up! Yes we all want a Say. With the Help of some dedicated Board Members Past and Present we know have A Vote on Officers, without being Life Members.

Not all you say is Wrong.

Now for Me (and Only Me) I stand with the Board for if we dont what kind of Organization would we be? Any Club or Organizations needs leaders. I am not a pro at Organizations but have been on 4-H Club Boards for years. Different group all together.

As for Minutes of Meetings, not sure on. My thoughts here is that we need good discussion to Hear All. So do not shut up. I did not get into alot of other issues you brought up, as I am Blonde and I need to think about it. lol Thanks MJ :)

[Dean_Dolph]

Gene, my posts about 'we are the PRA' isn't an original idea or theme of mine! Others came before me and others continue to post the same message(s). The issues aren't new and they will never go away. They will only change form. That is the nature of organizations.

I agree somewhat about organizations growing because of charismatic leaders and vision. But if the leaders don't have compatible followers, ones that aren't mutinous then there won't be any growth. Those that know me well will tell you I don't agree with issues just to get along so don't think I'm saying we should not raise the issues. But this forum has the capability of giving a active, vocal minority a louder voice than maybe it deserves and consequently the possibility of undermining all that has been accomplished so far. And no, I'm not going to start listing the PRAs accomplishments!

I think you would agree that you can't start an organization without a reason. But if only one person thinks it is a good reason then there won't be an organization and I don't care how charismatic that person is!

If the reason happens to appeal to a large number of people then birth can be given to an organization. The birth of the PRA was for business purposes, as you have pointed out while the EAA came about because of a common interest. The PRA out lived its initial purpose but because of common interest it has survived. At some point in an organizations growth someone, or a lot of someones, have to take responsibility for it. And that is when the leaders start to emerge.

People tend to forget that our leaders are no different than you or I. The only difference is that they have been willing to sacrifice their time and money (and if you haven't been close to the situation then you have no idea how much of each is spent) in order to keep this organization functioning. I've been a member since 1967 and those of us that have been members for twenty years or more can tell you that the membership numbers are cyclic, on the rise for awhile and then down again. And during those times when the membership is down, there is always unrest and the mention of another organization being started. Now there is a smart idea!

You, Heron and others are saying we don't have any leaders in the PRA, where do you think the ones (charismic of course!) for a new organization would come from? We've exchange email and I met you at Bensen Days a couple of years ago, which I enjoyed, and don't believe you have a ego problem. But sometimes when people start mentioning a new organization I get the feeling that they think that they would be the ideal person to lead it. In the first place there are very few people that have the resources to participate as an officer or on the board of any international organization. Remember the money and time (especially time, the most valuable thing we own) I mentioned earlier?

Like Mary Jane mentioned, after years, and I do mean years, of pushing, prodding and etc., we now can nominate and vote for members of the board. But guess what? There hasn't been a flood of people standing in line to run! And the number of people that have voted in the first two elections is a joke! People screamed for the right and then when they have it they don't use it. I had an opportunity to help count ballots last year at Mentone, and I don't trust my memory to quote numbers, but I believe only about 10% of the members cast a vote. And I was told that was up significantly from the year before.

I believe, at the moment, there is a lot of frustration and we now have a public forum to vent those frustrations. Frankly I'm glad we have the place to do it and that people aren't timid about voicing them. But I get a little tired of people citing problem and then not offering solutions. You at least offered detailed suggestions and maybe the board will take notice. And then again maybe they won't. I'm not sure how many visit this forum. Tom Milton, Maxie Wildes and G. Gremminger are the only ones that I've seen here. I would bet that Dave DeWinter and Jamie Bodie carried the general views from Norm's conference to the board in one way or another.

I do agree, with anyone that mentions it, that communication from the top is poor and always has been. I'm not sure what the reason or excuse is. But, is there any communication flowing from the chapters to the board? I know there is little, or none, flowing between chapters. Norm setup a conference for chapter communication a couple of years ago and it died from lack of use. I can tell you from personal experience that being an officer in a chapter is a thankless job and a ton of work so I can sympathize with those at the board level.

A few years ago on Norm's forum when PRA issues, similar to these, came up, I posted messages like yours, Heron's and others, but they dealt primarily with training. And when I did; I got a proper come-uppance from Larry Goodhind who woke me up to the fact that I, and the rest of the members, are the PRA. It is not only the board or the officers who have the responsibility. Chapters should be using their life members as delegates to represent them and present issues at the annual life members meeting. Are they? Gary Goldsberrry and other officers give the life members an update at these meetings. Do the life members in turn convey that info to their Chapter? I tried but I'm not sure I did a good job. And then again I'm not sure that anyone cared.

So I say to all of you that are not happy with the PRA (to paraphrase JFK) ask not what the PRA does for you, but what do you do for the PRA!

Tim's membership promotion is great idea! I just hope he realizes what a chunk he has bitten off. This is an example of a grassroots effort and I hope we all help him as much as possible. I also hope he isn't disappointed in us if he finds his help isn't what he expects.

Sorry for the long post but fortunately for ya all I gotta run and get ready for my first wedding anniversary celebration or it could have been longer!

[GeneWeber]

Hi MJ and Dean,

Thanks for the responses. It definitely was excellent to meet folks at Bensen days a few years ago. I’m hoping to make it to Mentone this year, but only if my plane is done (Unfortunately it is requiring more rework than I had thought it would, so it‘s taking more time than I had thought it would. But fortunately, my friend John has a great deal of expertise in both metalworking and aircraft construction, or I’d really be up the creek.).

Yikes! I have no intensions of starting another organization, no need to be a leader, and I’m definitely not charismatic. ::) I guess I just don’t share the optimism that the PRA can become what I’m looking for. It’s better than no rotorcraft organization at all. And sometimes there are real gems like the Hofstra conference was. Although I'd bet there are probably folks that wouldn’t have cared for that. But, the world would be boring if we all saw it the same way.

BTW: Your first wedding anniversary is a whole lot more important than any of this stuff. Congratulations and I wish you many more happy years.

Best Regards,

Gene

[Harry_S.]

Gene, Sir;

I'm with you. I like the way you talk, especially when your 30 yrs. my senior.

[MikeBoyette]

For those who have not ever gone to Sun-N- fun with a gyro or had a diaplay there I suggest you do it one year and then you will understand why alot of gyro folks have a bad taste in thier mouth. Don't get me started. :P

[PW_Plack]

I'm a relative newcomer, still looking forward to building my first machine, but I'm a three-year PRA member, and now a local chapter officer. The long-timers who run the PRA seem to have their hearts in the right place, but I'm not sure they've figured out why membership has declined, or what would be effective in bringing it back.

I've worked around research and marketing most of my adult life. Sometimes, an objective, third-party assessment of what's wrong is necessary. Consultants who do this work will tell you, the truth can be hard for management to swallow when it challenges egos and entrenched ideas. The traditional barriers to new blood on the board make the PRA especially vulnerable to this problem.

Many businesses decline or die because they make assumptions about why their customers left, or are given the real answer but refuse to believe it. In the meantime, competitors figure out the real reason, exploit it, and grow to become new industry leaders. I'm a career radio programmer, and I've worked for companies on both sides of that war.

It may take more than internal meetings and brainstorming to find the answer to an organization's decline. It may take contacting former members who haven't renewed, and asking them to be candid about why. If the survey finds that many former members feel the PRA is a big clique, or only of benefit to a privileged few, it doesn't matter whether it's really true, it will have to be addressed. I believe many PRA members view their membership strictly as an expensive Rotorcraft magazine subscription, so it's a big disappointment when the organization decides to save money by cutting the number of issues, or eliminating the annual calendar.

I can't help but look at EAA, and wonder if it will ever occur to them that nearly all sport gyroplanes are homebuilts. If you pick up Sport Aviation, you'll see excellent technical articles and member project updates every month. This forum is currently filling that role for gyroplane enthusiasts in the US. If EAA ever decided to devote a segment of Sport Aviation to homebuilt rotorcraft each month, and gave them a place and role in their huge fly-ins, I wonder if the PRA would survive the competition.

[quadrirotor]

For those who have not ever gone to Sun-N- fun with a gyro or had a diaplay there I suggest you do it one year and then you will understand why alot of gyro folks have a bad taste in thier mouth. Don't get me started. :P


And Mike, can you give more details?

[Doug Riley]

My sense (I haven't taken a poll) is that the long-standing bad reputation of gyros is the main problem. One member or the other of the Cessna crowd reams me for flying a "death trap" at just about any airport I show up at. Even total strangers can be surprisingly rude about it -- "I heard about 3 guys that got killed in them rigs... " [blah blah]. (EAA, as an organization, shares this prejudice, which is one reason I let my membership in that oufit run out after years of belonging.)

Each of us who fly gyros can help the situation by being absolutely squeaky-professional about every aspect of our flying. Have your machine neat and clean, wires all bundled and secured and some paint on the exhaust. Learn to use a radio and employ the jargon. Fly the correct pattern. Follow the right-of-way rules (that means if you're an ultralight, you have to yield to N-numbered powered aircraft, in addition to gliders, balloons and such). Get up in the pattern and then LEAVE. Do your fun flying outside the pattern. Don't get the neighbors P.O.'d. You might even invest in a pair of Ray-Bans like the airline pilots wear.

I know, I know, every gyronaut is "proud to be a rebel" and anyway, the fixed-wingers do bonehead stuff all the time. However, it is WE, and not they, who are under a dark cloud within the aviation community. Ditch the rebel act, because we've had too much of that already. Like many another persecuted minority, we have to OVER-compensate to prove we're as good as they are.

'Tain't fair, but life isn't, sometimes.

P.S.: Sport Pilot may help, too. We hope the design standards will produce a better, safer craft than we've gotten through the "experimental" system.

[Chuck Irby]

Doug,

You made a very good point, and said it well.

Thanks for your post

[Aussie_Paul]

Absolutely true Doug.

Down under just about all the gyro pilots back in the 80s were straight off motor bikes, as you did not have to have any sort of a license or certificate.

The fixed wing GA pilots just treated a gyro as a toy as "they flew tinnies" and this toy that did not require a license must be easy to fly. Of course no dual powered training back then.

With the D/Drive VWs with 23' blades, the biggest back then,etc, a lot of gyro got wrecked but no one died. They would not climb out of ground effect.

Then enter the Rotax and the quick build Air Command of the infamous Dennis Fetters. GA pilots and a mate of two would have these built in a couple of weekends and the GA "pilot" would have a go. Of course the agent sold them the biggest blades the biggest engine and pre rotator.

Now we have a "pilot" all of a sudden at 300' and can't fly. This is far more serious than being in ground effect and not being able to fly a gyro.

We then have the old PIO followed by the PPO followed by a funeral, and our industry begins the downward trend.

Enter dual training and a gyroplane pilot certicate requirement, and people begin to take our choice of flying machine a little more seiously.

At that point, 1988 I begin to train a number of responsible GA tinnie pilots and the airmanship etc began to improve, and has continued to improve as we get more pilots from the other well established aviation disciplines.

Now the peer group pressure is on the side of responsible operation rather than the "cowboy" attitude, which is improving the image of our chosen flying machines and gyroplane industry.

Aussie Paul.

[PW_Plack]

Doug, Paul, well said.

It may also work against gyros to be the choice of people who want the cheapest possible thing thing they can fly. It's the dark side of Dr. Bensen's legacy. If you set a personal limit of $5,000 for the machine, what's your training budget likely to be?

[Gordon Gibson]

Doug R, Paul P & Paul B

Great posts, I agree entirely. Gyros need to be far more user friendly. I am a low time gyro pilot, only 300 hours over 12 years, I loved what I did and never had any trouble but as far as I'm concerned the HTL machines are (by and large) just built wrong.

An interested person needs to be able to go for a trial flight in a gyro and come away impressed at how he/she can fly along straight and level almost immediately, after being briefed by the instructor on how to do so and without the instructor having to hold the controls at the same time, like I heard they have to do in some types.

He can do this in a Cessna 172 (say) a Piper Cub, a Hughes 300, and even a R22...why shouldn't he be able to do that in a gyro?

I believe in the case of a SparrowHawk, a Firebird (or Hybrid) a Dominator or similar CLT machine, or a LW, he CAN fly along like that, they are stable enough to allow it.

Sorry, but the HTL/no stab machines are not built right. IMO. They might be OK for those that did the hard yards learning in them but for all these new people that the PRA needs to bring in: no, the gyros themselves need to be designed better with CLT or very close and adequate effective HS's on the back.
I'm stopping now while I still have some friends left!!!

Thanks, Gordon Gibson.

Safe flying is not necessarily cheap. Cheap flying is not necessarily safe.