New Suspension Update

[gyropilot]

Several folks have asked me to give an update on how I like the new hydraulic spring/shock suspension my Bee is now sporting along with a narrower main landing gear (70"). I hadn't had the opportunity to test it out yet until yesterday, when I finally had some free time, a good weather day, and all my winter maintenance work was finished.

I'm pleased to report the new suspension seems just perfect and I'm very happy with it. Here's a list of noteworthy items from 5 flights I took yesterday:

1. When trailering, the suspension seems to absorb the road vibrations much better than the original bungie cord suspension. The Bee can be seen to sort of float along on top of the trailer when going over road bumps.

2. When pulling the starter rope (on a Rotax 503), the Bee will lean toward the pull.

3. No noticeable difference in taxiing on smooth pavement, except when turning corners briskly... the Bee can be felt to lean a little to the outside of the corner.

4. When taxiing on sod, the Bee is much smoother. It seems to almost float along.

5. Takeoffs seem a little different to me now, but since I hadn't flown my Bee since last October, it could just be me! :) I can get some incredible rock back with the mains still on the runway due to the long travel of the sring/shocks as they uncompress. They're compressed about 2/3 of their travel when on the ground fully loaded for takeoff. This effect isn't bad mind you... it just feels different to me at this point. If I had to sum it up, I'd say the moment the main wheels leave the runway feels a little less defined.

6. Landings feel just the same as before... nice and cushy. It's darn near impossible to make a "bone jarring" landing in a Bee... even with the original bungie cord suspension.

That about wraps it up. I'm very glad I made this upgrade and am looking forward to the upcoming flying season. With my new 10 gallon fuel tank and Dragon Wing blades, I want to go on some nice long cross country flights.

Best regards,

John L.

[GyroRon]

What was wrong with the stock suspension? Curious as I got a gyrobee in my hangar waiting for test flights and I may end up be the primary pilot on this machine, so any gyrobee info I can get I would appreciate.

[gyropilot]

Ron,

There's nothing "wrong" with the stock GyroBee suspension or landing gear width. However, I'm sure you'll agree that anything can be made better.

After flying my Bee for a few years now, I came to the conclusion that the landing gear just didn't need to be so wide (originally mine was 7.5' total width), so I narrowed it to just shy of 6' overall width (70"). The stock width was too much trouble to deal with in ground handling, trailering, and storage, with IMHO little benefit in return.

The stock bungie cord suspension works acceptably well, is simple, and lightweight for what it accomplishes. Unfortunately, it's also prone to rapid wear and thus requires annual replacement (or sooner) of certain components. Ralph warns about this in his documentation.

The new spring/shock landing gear I fabricated works just as well as the original (and maybe even a little better on the ground), but the best part is it has no components to constantly wear out.

Simple as that.

Regards,

John L.

[GyroRon]

Yes the gear certainly seems too wide to me. How did you shorten it? I would like to see it just under 6 feet so it will fit on a trailer. I am taking it to Bensen Days and am wondering now how I will get it there.....

[gyropilot]

Ron,

Narrowing the landing gear is a relatively straightforward affair, but it may not be possible to accomplish on an otherwise stock Bee without encountering some serious "ripple effect" problems.

If you narrow the main axle tubes, the vertical support tubes will have to be a steeper angle. This is where you'd start to have problems...

Where the machined aluminum "fork" goes around the slotted stainless steel plate at the rear of the mast for the bungie cord suspension, that fork can only be angled downward so much before it'll bind on the side of the stainless steel plate. Take a look at the Bee next time you at the hanger and you'll see what I mean.

So unless you have the time to deal with re-engineering the whole bungie cord suspension, I don't think I'd mess with anything. You'd likely have to machine new longer forks for the top of the vertical struts.

A note of caution before you fly this Bee: If much time has been accumulated on the airframe (50 to 100 hours), I'd be sure to remove that bolt and sleeve which pass through that machined aluminum fork and the slotted stainless steel bungie cord plate so you can inspect it for wear. If the inevitable wear is allowed to progress far enough, the bolt could be worn completely through and severed. Trailering is especially hard on this area, so it's worth looking if there's any doubt.

Good luck,

John L.

[GyroRon]

Thanks John. No this bee has never flown before. It is brand spanking new! It has only been in a trailer one time for a short trip from Barrys garage to my hangar - maybe 10 miles. We couldn't get it on the trailer so we had to use thick foam to wrap the trailers guard rails on the side and we had to sit it down on the railing with the wheels hanging off the sides. but it was a slow trip and smooth roads....

He has no prerotator, Rotax 447, 24 or maybe 25 foot brand new white finish sportcopter rotorblades, Joe Suza rotorhead with no brake, scrub brake on the front wheel, and not much else for extras or gadgets.

I have been in my garage today fooling with the Rotax. We had to take it off and bring it here to pull the flywheel off. We were not getting spark on one cylinder for some reason. I took it all apart and just put it back together and it all works now for some reason. Now I am going to take it all apart again and check for wire chaffing. One set of points also look not to good, the contacts aren't too bad but the spring is not right on that set.

Excited about the test flying, think it will be fun. We worked on the hang testing Saturday afternoon and will have it set up with 9 degrees of back angle in the cheek plates for the rotorhead with 18 degrees of travel both fore and aft and side to side. When it is hung it will be at between 10 and 11 degrees nose down measured either at the top of the keel in front of the seat or on the front side of the mast above the seat. The difference in degrees will be dependant on full fuel or empty and me in the seat or Barry who weights a bit more than me.

[Brennen]

Could I see pictures and possibly drawings of these mods ?

I want to build a bee and I think coil overs will be much better than the bungee setup.

[Brennen]

I was reading the plans for the bee and the author says putting on Dragon Wings will make it dangerous because flying a bee at a higher speed makes it unstable.

Did you heavily mod your bee ?

[gyropilot]

Brennen,

Pictures of the suspension modification I made for my Bee and some of the basic drawings can be found on Toby Harvey's web site here:

The Lone Star Gyro Web Site (http://users2.ev1.net/~gyroman/tipsmain.htm)

Doing such a modification requires access to at least a lathe... and a maybe even a milling machine. It's not a complicated project, but is way beyond simple hand tools.

Feel free to ask any questions and I'll try to help.

Regards,

John L.

[gyropilot]

I was reading the plans for the bee and the author says putting on Dragon Wings will make it dangerous because flying a bee at a higher speed makes it unstable.Brennen,

I believe Ralph's warning about not using Dragon Wing blades with a GyroBee is somewhat dated and inadequately explained. He certainly did experience less pitch stability when he test flew a set of Dragon Wings in turbulence long ago, but without a complete understanding of why this happened, or knowledge of how to correct it, he made a reasonable blanket recommendation to avoid these blades. His warning has probably kept other early stock Bee builders out of trouble.

Now why did Ralph experience pitch instability when using Dragon Wing blades?

It's been theorized by Chuck Beaty that Dragon Wing blades can make *any* gyroplane which has a high thrustline and an airframe which is inadequately pitch dampened actually more pitch unstable (when compared to other lower performance blades). By inadequately pitch dampened, I mean the airframe would lack an adequate horizontal stabilizer on a long enough moment arm (back there on the tail).

I'm not sure I can correctly remember how to explain the underlying reason why this happens, so I'd better not make a fool of myself in trying to! However, I do recall Chuck explaining that when using Dragon Wing blades on such a gyro, changes in magnitude of the Rotor Lift Vector (RLV) have a greater effect on the airframe pitch (compared to other lower performance blades). Pitch changes on the airframe would be magnifying from the effect of turbulence... possibly what Ralph experienced.

If Chuck reads this I hope he'll please jump in and tell us the "why" behind this effect.

Another mitigating factor in magnifying airframe pitch stability problems (when using Dragon Wings) is they're considerably lighter than most blades out there. Removing weight at the top of the mast will exacerbate a high thrustline.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that several Bee builders (myself included) have been successfully using Dragon Wing blades for years without stability problems. Why? It's because our Bee's now have large adequate horizontal stabilizers which compensate for a slightly high thrustline, therefore compensating for any airframe pitch instabilities.

The bottom line is this:

Slapping a set of Dragon Wing blades on a high thrustline gyro which lacks an adequate horizontal stabilizer can be a very bad idea... it's not a GyroBee problem per se. But if the high thrust line is balanced by an adequate horizontal stabilizer, you simply can't beat the performance and light weight of Dragon Wing blades. Almost everyone agrees Dragon Wing blades outperform any other blades on the market today (probably a few competitor blade manufacturer's might disagree). They are a good choice for a Bee *if* you have a large adequate horizontal stabilizer *and* you don't need to hand start them. They can be a real bitch to hand start and are easier to flap than lower performance blades.

Regards,

John L.

[Ralph]

The primary reason for the width of the Gyrobee main gear was to minimize the chance that the gyro could be tipped over if landed in a slightly crabbed attitude. Back in the mid-90s we did an accident survey and most of the non-fatal flight accidents were the result of landing roll-overs. This may not be important to an experienced pilot, but if you reduce the gear width to make it easier to trailer, be aware of the consequences. If your vertical center-of-mass gets outside of the triangle defined by the vertical projection of the three wheels, you will go over. The consequences will be expensive and it can also hurt more than your wallet! Yes, the wide gear is a pain to trailer, but after some "interesting" incidents during training (another way of saying that it didn't roll over when everyone thought it would!), our's still has the wide gear

The Gyrobee suspension is simple, light, and cheap but it does wear. If someone were to let the wear get to the point of a bolt failure, I personally would chalk up such a failure to preflight to basic natural selection! Replacing the sleeve (which is all that is required if you keep up with your inspections) costs pennies and takes a few minutes.

Other suspension systems are quite practical but will be heavier. If weight is not an issue, John's system is excellent. If you are designing your own suspension, just be sure that you have dampening capacity along with the "spring". In the Gyrobee system, the "spring" is the bungee and the whole thing is damped by friction with the plate. While the fiberglass axles used in the Honeybee look neat, they are heavy and don't include damping. They will shimmy up and down and fore and aft, just like the old Pterodactyl ultralights. The really absorb the bumps but can also make you both seasick and nervous! If the choice is between 'glass gear legs and the Gyrobee suspension, the Gyrobee system is better.

Ralph

[Ralph]

The problem with the Dragon Wings blades that we flew several years ago was the fact that they were the old-style without the reflexed trailing edge. The felt fine in calm air but handling got disquieting in rough air. Current blades have a reflexed trailing edge and are superb in terms of efficiency and handling.

There are really two things you need to consider when using DWs:

(1) John has alluded to the problem with hand-starting. I personally would not use then without a good prerotator.

(2) DWs are very light, compared to many other blades, and that will result in a drop in the location of the vertical center of mass. No problem with the Watson tail or other option with plenty of horizontal stab area. However, the differential may not be significant if you add a prerotator, since the added mass will move the vertical CG to essentially the stock configuration.

Ralph

[Brennen]

So what kind of speed can you get with the Dragon Wings ?

What kind of range can you get with a 10 gallon tank ?

I would like to build a Bee to ultralight standards then after I get my pilots licence I would like to "upgrade" the bee so I can go cross country. I've heard that would be dangerous though.

I have a LOT to learn. I can't believe it was 24 years ago when I sent away for info on a B8M Benson. So much time has passed. So many things have changed. I must own and fly a gyro that I built with my own hands. I am so looking forward to this project and meeting some first class gyro nuts like me.

[mcbirdman]

Just a note: Flying an as an ultralight - can only carry 5 gallons of fuel. It would'nt improve your standing regarding the fuel situation even if you got your PPC since that does not change the aircraft limitations. If it were registered experimental and you got your PPC then you could increase fuel load. Ultralights are limited to 5 gallons of fuel and can not go faster 50 or 55 ( I forgot).

[Brennen]

Yeah I'm aware of the speed and fuel and weight limitations. I'm just wondering if I can have an ultralight bee then get my PPC then "upgrade" the bee so I can get some real use out of it. More speed and range. I would like to do something wild with it like travel around the country for a full year. I bet some parts will wear out way before that. I'm just dreaming. I've been dreaming of a gyro for way to long. Since I have a hold on my illness now it's time to fly.

I'm thinking of putting the entire design into a CAD program and then posting it so anyone can use it. I plan on having disk brakes and coil overs on it. Oh I can't wait to get this off the ground. I think it's going to take months of research before $1 is spent.

By the way is Craig Wall on this board somewhere ?

[gyropilot]

I'm just wondering if I can have an ultralight bee then get my PPC then "upgrade" the bee so I can get some real use out of it.Brennen,

Forgive me if I have the situation wrong, but I take it you're not a pilot yet (UL, gyroplane, or otherwise)... correct? If you're just starting out, you can't go wrong building a stock GyroBee equipped with an adequate horizontal stab... like that found on the Watson tail. I would strongly recommend against trying to re-design or "improve" the basic Bee before you've even flown one. You can't possibly know what's safe, what works well, and what doesn't on a gyro! This is a tempting trap to fall into... I'm speaking from experience. I started modifying the design in my mind before I ever cut my first piece of metal... got myself into trouble and paid a high price for it! I even have a couple of small scars to remind me of my errors.

Once you build a Bee and get some flight time under your belt, *then* you can start your *careful* experimenting. You'll know what a basic Bee handles like (very well) and you'll be in a much better position to evaluate any changes.

More speed and range. I would like to do something wild with it like travel around the country for a full year.We all dream of more speed and range!

Realistically though, a GyroBee (and just about any open frame gyro for that matter) is just *not* a good cross country machine. Think about... where are you going to safely store and carry the necessary tools, spare parts, 2-stroke oil, clothing, camping gear, etc., etc.? At a minimum you'll need a ground support vehicle.

On the other hand a day trip is both fun and easily accomplished. I plan to attempt a 310 SM round trip solo cross-country flight in my Bee the weekend after next. Not impressive for the RAF owners, but any open-frame gyro pilot can appreciate what it entails.

I see you live in Canada.. right? It's my understanding there isn't a gyroplane UL category there, which would make it impossible for you to operate a GyroBee there without a pilot rating and some sort of airworthiness requirement. Is this true?

Best regards,

John L.

[gyropilot]

So what kind of speed can you get with the Dragon Wings ?

What kind of range can you get with a 10 gallon tank ?Top speed depends on many factors... prop. thrust, airframe configuration, blades, etc. With the Rotax 503 or equivalent being the largest engine we can safely use, the GyroBee is pretty well drag limited to 75 mph max speed at a low-density altitude. In my Bee, 50 mph is a very comfortable, low-fuel consumption airspeed. I fly at 65mph when I'm in a hurry to get somewhere and don't care about the fuel situation.

Assuming a 4 GPH average fuel burn rate at 50mph, the no-wind range with 10 gallons of fuel would be 2 hours an 10 minutes, or 108 SM. That would be leaving a 20 minute fuel reserve. This past weekend I flew something like 92+ SM on only 6.2 gallons of fuel, averaging a 3.2 GPH fuel burn.

Personally I get nervous when the tank level drops below 1/4 full... unless I'm just messing around in the traffic pattern at an airport. So rarely do I try to test my Bee's maximum range.

Regards,

John L.

[Brennen]

Brennen,

Forgive me if I have the situation wrong, but I take it you're not a pilot yet (UL, gyroplane, or otherwise)... correct? If you're just starting out, you can't go wrong building a stock GyroBee equipped with an adequate horizontal stab... like that found on the Watson tail. I would strongly recommend against trying to re-design or "improve" the basic Bee before you've even flown one. You can't possibly know what's safe, what works well, and what doesn't on a gyro! This is a tempting trap to fall into... I'm speaking from experience. I started modifying the design in my mind before I ever cut my first piece of metal... got myself into trouble and paid a high price for it! I even have a couple of small scars to remind me of my errors.

Once you build a Bee and get some flight time under your belt, *then* you can start your *careful* experimenting. You'll know what a basic Bee handles like (very well) and you'll be in a much better position to evaluate any changes.

We all dream of more speed and range!

Realistically though, a GyroBee (and just about any open frame gyro for that matter) is just *not* a good cross country machine. Think about... where are you going to safely store and carry the necessary tools, spare parts, 2-stroke oil, clothing, camping gear, etc., etc.? At a minimum you'll need a ground support vehicle.

On the other hand a day trip is both fun and easily accomplished. I plan to attempt a 310 SM round trip solo cross-country flight in my Bee the weekend after next. Not impressive for the RAF owners, but any open-frame gyro pilot can appreciate what it entails.

I see you live in Canada.. right? It's my understanding there isn't a gyroplane UL category there, which would make it impossible for you to operate a GyroBee there without a pilot rating and some sort of airworthiness requirement. Is this true?

Best regards,

John L.

I will elaborate. #1 I want to build an ultralight Bee (to gain experience and all that) #2 pilot licence (more experience and knowledge) #3 Then I would like to mod it.... like you did. The coil overs the disk brakes maybe a prerotor and dragon wings. Big gas tank. avionics.

Trust me I know I am a green horn and in NO WAY am I going to mod my bee in a big way. Before I do ANYTHING all you guys on here will know about it so I can draw on your knowledge.

I have much to learn and that's why I'm here. I hope to get to know the whole lot of ya basicaly. I'm looking forward to my first Benson days.

Well when I said across the country I meant with my car and trailer. I want to go to as many grass strips and hopefully be invited to as many home strips. I'm not a complete wildman :o

About Canada not having a UL gyro law it wouldn't surprise me. I'm going to live in Australia in a few years anyway. I think there they don't have a UL cat either. Oh well. Then skip step #1.

By the way that long trip sounds great. I hope you have a blast.

[Dean_Dolph]

Brennen, there have been several of us here that have made stupid, idiotic statements in order to draw Craig out but so far no luck! Actually those statements were unintentional but still no Craig. I guess he doesn't love us no mo.

[Brennen]

I remember reading Craig Wall years ago on I think the PRA web boards and I just like his style. Oh well maybe one day he will show up. :cool:

[chuter]

If you guys couldn't handle Bill, there's no way you could handle Craig Wall.
He was very knowledgeable, but could also be quite an ass.

[GyroRon]

Right on Michael! Craig would bring alot to the forum, but all the insulting and so on that comes with his "style" isn't worth it to me.

[eruttan]

I really like Craig.
He new it, and when he was showed didn't he was humble enough to admit it, and thank you for showing him.

Let there be no mistake. He is not knowledgeable and an ass; he is an ass... with a lot of knowledge, experience, and wisdom.
Learning from Craig is all about getting around the ass.

[Brennen]

I remember years ago on the (I think) PRA boards Craig Wall was try to educate this guy who thought he could make some rotor blades himself out of wood and use a motorcyle engine for his gyro. Craig had a lot of fun with this guy. I was fun to see I have to admit. After a long time he finally explained that a motorcycle engine cylinder head just dosen't have enough metal in it to pull the heat out of the combustion chambers so it will start to knock and destroy itself in short order. The guy was so pissed off though. I can see people being turned off by that. That guy was just about asking for it because when Craig said you can't do that he said basically "Stop being so negative" It must have been at least 2 years ago when I saw that but it still sticks in my memory. Craig said he is an ass because he wants people to remember the things he says. He is right about that part. I can also see where people don't want to be talked down to.

[pwendell]

I really like Craig.
He new it, and when he was showed didn't he was humble enough to admit it, and thank you for showing him.

Let there be no mistake. He is not knowledgeable and an ass; he is an ass... with a lot of knowledge, experience, and wisdom.
Learning from Craig is all about getting around the ass.

I liked what craig had to say -- most of the time. The only time he really bugged me was when people were AGREEING with him and would just keep arguing anyway.

[Kevin_Richey]

gyropilot wrote:

I plan to attempt a 310 SM round trip solo cross-country flight in my Bee the weekend after next. Not impressive for the RAF owners, but any open-frame gyro pilot can appreciate what it entails.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Say, gyropilot, does that mean you're flying down to Scappoose this weekend for the Chapter 73 gathering?

I've been wanting to see your mountain bike disc brake modification up close...the photos you've posted don't get into my brain as well as in person.

Kevin

[gyropilot]

Say, gyropilot, does that mean you're flying down to Scappoose this weekend for the Chapter 73 gathering?

I've been wanting to see your mountain bike disc brake modification up close...the photos you've posted don't get into my brain as well as in person.

KevinThat's exactly what it means Kevin!

Right now I'm keeping a close eye on the long term weather forecast... sort of unsettled at this point. I'm planning on leaving Harvey Field (S43 (http://www.airnav.com/airport/S43)) north of Seattle by 7:00am on Saturday morning, and I should arrive at the Scappoose Airpark (SPB (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KSPB)) between 10:00am and 11:000am... that's if the winds aren't a problem! I should only have to stop once en route for fuel and hope to make it all the way to Chehalis, WA (CLS (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KCLS)) on the way down.

Of course headwinds could force me to stop twice and significantly lengthen the time en route.

I hope to see you there.

John L.

[Aussie_Paul]

Great John, now that will be an achievement. Good luck.

Aussie Paul.

[PW_Plack]

John,

Not quite as exciting, but I'll be coming in a 150 if weather permits. I'm sure our folks will love getting a look at your 'Bee!

[Kevin_Richey]

John:

Do you do the av-gas thing in your Gyrobee, or auto gas kind?

Do you need any type of ground support for this Sat.?

Do you bring along your own two-stroke oil?

[gyropilot]

Do you do the av-gas thing in your Gyrobee, or auto gas kind?Per Rotax recommendations, I try to use regular unleaded auto gas whenever possible, but I do use 100LL when I have to.

The main thing I dislike about using 100LL is it causes the capacitive fuel sender to display an incorrect reading on the fuel gauge... it's calibrated for the regular unleaded. That's a little unnerving when I really need to accurately know how much fuel I have left on a cross-country flight. I have no choice but to rely on time flown and historic fuel consumption rates.Do you need any type of ground support for this Sat.?Thanks... but I hope not! I carry my cell phone with me in case I have to make a forced landing (or worse). So far I've never had to use it and have always made it back home.Do you bring along your own two-stroke oil?Yep... I stick a quart bottle in each leg pocket of my flight suit. Totally low tech huh?

But I am hoping the PRA Chapter 73 guys will let me bum some food at the meeting pot luck, because flying in an open frame gyro makes me hungry!

Take care,

John L.

[gyropilot]

Not quite as exciting, but I'll be coming in a 150 if weather permits. I'm sure our folks will love getting a look at your 'Bee!I'm looking forward to finally making one of your meetings. However, the long range weather is looking sort of "iffy" (showers predicted - what a surprise!). I might just try to go ahead and drive down if I can't make the flight.

John L.

[Kevin_Richey]

Was wondeering if you'd prefer to use auto fuel instead of filliing up with the FBO's avgas...that is if you fly down.

I have a Mr. Funnel filter, some plastic five gallon fuel cans and the local (76?) gas station is five minutes away...and Paul Plack has the pickup truck to haul them in (haa-ha-ha).

[gyropilot]

Was wondeering if you'd prefer to use auto fuel instead of filliing up with the FBO's avgas...that is if you fly down.

I have a Mr. Funnel filter, some plastic five gallon fuel cans and the local (76?) gas station is five minutes away...and Paul Plack has the pickup truck to haul them in (haa-ha-ha).Kevin,

I would love to borrow your Mr. Funnel, your gas can, and hitch a ride into town from someone for some auto gas.

Regards,

John L.

[Brennen]

With your bee you can remove the gas tank so you don't need a spare 5 gal tank. Nice design.

[Bomber]

G'day Brennan,
I have been a closet Gyro lover for many years - mortgages, family commitments and especially finances etc etc have always got in the way. This year however, I've made myself a promise that I WILL get in the air, get a licence - and eventually have my own Gyro.
Until I actually get to that stage however, I have been constructing a Gyrobee - on computer!
I have modelled probably 90% of the Gyrobee from the 2D drawings furnished by Ralph Taggarts wonderful Gyrobee - Ultralight Gyroplane Documentation I poached from his web site.
This has done a number of things for me:-
a) I've extended my knowledge of 3D modelling using ACAD 2000 with Mechanical Desktop (R4) Power Pack - and had an absolute ball doing so,
b) "built" the Gyrobee "from scratch" - and watched it grow as if it were consuming space in my garage,
c) verified (and otherwise) Ralphs 2D drawings - I only found a few dimensions missing and from memory, only one or two dimensions that were not right - absolutely the best way to be sure or your plans prior to construction.

It has also fuelled my thirst for getting into this sport.

I must say however, reading many of the threads in various forums relating to the subject, that I'm probably LESS inclined to build my Gyro for real - at least at the beginning when I'm going to be new to the flying experience (I don't have any doubts about my construction abilities and capabilities), but some of the words of wisdom and experience are hard to reject and do make sense.

Like you, I'll continue to research and form proper informed opinions about the Gyroplane - what is good - what is not.

If you have access to Mechanical Desktop R4 and you would like a copy of my drawings (on the basis that they are for your use only and are not to be distributed to anyone else) - please get back to me.

BTW - If anyone has good dimensioned 2D drawings of:

a) a suitable seat (either integral fuel or just a simple seat),
b) the Watsons horizontal and vertical stabiliser, and
c) a Subaru engine!!!!!!!! (yeh, I bet)

I would be very grateful for your donation.

Best of luck with your endeavours .....

PS - I'm going to try and insert a couple of screen dumps from the CAD package to give you an idea where I'm up to - good luck to me!!!!

[IMG]

[Bomber]

G'day Brennen

I thought I'd replied to your last post in this thread (I VERY new at this forum stuff) but I can't see it here. Now I'm not sure where it went. If you get it, please let me know (you might also let me know where I went wrong!!!)

Regards

Bomber

*** Now I realise I was responding to a post on PAGE 1!!!!! and of course, my reply went down on page 3 - sorry to everyone for my incompetence!!

[Brian Jackson]

Hi Bomber.
I'm doing exactly the same thing! ACAD 2000/MD. I'm not as far along with the solid model as you are, but I agree it is a great way to check accuracy of dwgs, and to familiarize one's self with the nuances of the construction. I'm modeling the seat currently... always a challenge with compound NURBS curves. ACAD doesn't handle compound tangents very well. However if I could trouble you for either a dwg. file of the rotor head dimensions I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Brian Jackson

http://www.rotopix.com/space/jackson/gbframe2.jpg

[KenSandyEggo]

"Bomber Steve," I believe all replies go at the end, no matter whose post you're replying too. In fact, the only reply button is at the end of the last post on each page.

[nsheryka]

Hey! you guys arent the only one.

I totaly agree with you both.. best way to start. Sorry, i am doing it in solid works, however.

[nsheryka]

here is another picture that you can see into:

[Ralph]

Hey Guys,

That 3D modeling stuff is really nice. The Gyrobee drawings were done on ancient 2D software called Generic CAD - no longer available, though I wish it was. Most of the pieces fit because I "built" virtual samples of everything from the original CAD draws and then assembled them to test for fit using the CAD program. VERY tedious with the Generic CAD software but it did reveal some issues that would not have been evident based on standard editing of the initial drawing set.

One thing that I occasionally get requests for is a set of perspective drawings that show the assembled relationship of all the major airframe components. This was not easy to do in Generic CAD and I felt that, given all the photos, it wasn't necessary. However, such a set of drawings would be nice. You guys that are building virtual Bees might consider rendering a set of airframe perspective drawings in BMP or some other common format. I would be happy to post them on the site (with appropriate credit) where they could be downloaded by other builders.

Ralph

[Brian Jackson]

Consider it done. Exploded assembly views would be of help as well. I'll shoot something to you today for your examination. Thanks.

Brian Jackson

P.S. Nick: Can you import/export DXF files with SW? We could swap solid geometry that way and build a Virtual Bee collectively.

[nsheryka]

Consider it done. Exploded assembly views would be of help as well. I'll shoot something to you today for your examination. Thanks.

Brian Jackson

P.S. Nick: Can you import/export DXF files with SW? We could swap solid geometry that way and build a Virtual Bee collectively.


yea.. as soon as i get home from work today (4 ish) i will send you all that i can.

I am also working on a virtual watson tail, but this is not done yet

ANYONE HAVE ANY CYLIC PLANS???

[Brian Jackson]

Hey, that's great. BTW, I'm going to call StarBee Gyros today... perhaps they might be able to supply us with dims of the cyclic. I'll share whatever info I receive. It would be a fantastic resource for other builders to have a complete, nuts & bolts detailed model of the Bee as public domain. How far along are you with your solid model? I've got all the tubes and plate parts complete.

Thanks,
Brian

[Brian Jackson]

Also, for some of the non-plate parts, I'm considering doing an interactive rendering... here's an example (http://www.rotopix.com/objects/t800/t800.htm) That way there's no question about hole locations, or "gee, does this bend up or down in relation to..." Just click and drag on the part to rotate it.

Brian

[nsheryka]

i am about the same.. have it assembled with the rotor head on top. The good thing about solid works (maybee the program you are using.. i dont know) is that things will move in relation to one another.. ie if i get some plans for a cyclic i can assemle that on the frame, add some push rods and the rotor head will move back and fourth in the appropriate relation to the stick movement (i want some cyclic plans!!!!)

[Brian Jackson]

Unfortunately Acad doesn't have parametric modeling or hierarchic Parent/Child part relationships. I have done this type of modeling in 3D Studio and MicroStation Modeler, but I no longer have access to those programs. How about I send you DXF files of the seat and cyclic when I get them finished, and you can import them into your SolidWorks model. You would then have the "master record" of the assembled gyro rather than us maintaining and coordinating 2 versions of the same project. It would thus be a team project.

[gyropilot]

ANYONE HAVE ANY CYLIC PLANS???
You might want to check out the pump handle cyclic I made and use on my Bee. Information can be found on the Lone Star Gyro Site (http://users2.ev1.net/~gyroman/tips/pumpcyclic.htm).

Other handy GyroBee and related tips (http://users2.ev1.net/~gyroman/tipsmain.htm) can also be found on this web site.

Regards,

John L.

[nsheryka]

Unfortunately Acad doesn't have parametric modeling or hierarchic Parent/Child part relationships. I have done this type of modeling in 3D Studio and MicroStation Modeler, but I no longer have access to those programs. How about I send you DXF files of the seat and cyclic when I get them finished, and you can import them into your SolidWorks model. You would then have the "master record" of the assembled gyro rather than us maintaining and coordinating 2 versions of the same project. It would thus be a team project.


sounds good, this should be almost as fun as building a real one!!! (hopefully, we both will at some point soon!!!)

I also like those 3d renderings. I can do that within my program, however i can't save it for people who dont have Solid Works. Solid works can, however, create .mpg movie files showing a panning view of the assembly (or part) and it can show movement of interconnected parts in relation to one another.

There was some fool with alot of free time who modeled an entire F1 racecar in solid works (every part.. i mean every part) including everything from the engine valve rockers to the rack and pinion steering. The entire thing could be moved and manipulated in virtual reality just like the real car.

Amazing stuff for us nerds who have the free time!!

[gyroman]

I can post the stuff on my website too if anyone wants to send me the drawings. Anything we can do to help out other builders is cool.

[Brian Jackson]

Agreed! :) For the net stuff I like to keep the interactive content Java-based wherever possible. That way there's no special downloads or software installations that people need just to see your model. It gets down to that whole "K.I.S.S." mentality.

Sounds like that F1 racer took quite a few minutes to model! Regarding SW output rendering on your (borrowed ;) ) copy, screen captures would suffice. Fortunately the GyroBee's builder-fabricated parts are simple, which is part of my fascination with Mr. Taggart's design; simple, straight-forward and safe, with what appears to be an extensive builder support network.

I welcome the opportunity to team up with you in the creation of any visual aids to suppliment Mr. Taggart's drawings. Between the two of us I believe we could supply fellow GyroBee builders with a plethora of useful 3D information. To take it a step further, I could develop a simple online interface that, with a button click, presents the user with tail feather options (StarBee, Watson's, etc.), cyclic control options (Pump-lever or Standard), Engines (Rotax 447, etc.), prerotator configurations... You see where I'm going with this.

Obviously we can't cover the gamut, but many of the standard choices and options can be layered to turn on and off. Once we've got the "stock" model complete, which appears very near done, there's a multitude of ways to present it and interact with it.

Cheers,
Brian

[Brian Jackson]

I can post the stuff on my website too if anyone wants to send me the drawings. Anything we can do to help out other builders is cool.

Thanks, Toby.

I've been considering setting up a Bee support site to serve as a central database, but since both you and Mr. Taggart already have established sites, that might be a smart way to go. Thank you very much for the offer.

By the way, I'm leaving for the Mentone PRA tomorrow morning. We're producing an entire 3D Virtual Tour of the event, both from the ground and from the air. We're doing all the work for free and donating it to the PRA for inclusion on their new site. I'm planning on doing several 3D scenes from a pilot's seat nodal point perspective, so you'll actually "feel" like you're sitting at the controls of several different gyros. The scenes will navigate interactively like these (http://www.rotopix.com/gallery/gallery.htm). Tom Milton is helping us make arrangements for production. To my knowledge these will be the first true-VR scenes shot from a gyro.

Brian

[nsheryka]

Agreed! :)

I welcome the opportunity to team up with you in the creation of any visual aids to suppliment Mr. Taggart's drawings. Between the two of us I believe we could supply fellow GyroBee builders with a plethora of useful 3D information. To take it a step further, I could develop a simple online interface that, with a button click, presents the user with tail feather options (StarBee, Watson's, etc.), cyclic control options (Pump-lever or Standard), Engines (Rotax 447, etc.), prerotator configurations... You see where I'm going with this.



Awesome, i will get to work finishing my model asap. I have been thinking about doing this for some time.. but with your help things may move much faster. I do have the plans for the pump handle, however again.. no plans for a standard cyclic system (hint hint all you plan hiders out there). If you had no luck with starbee, i may just design my own. We shall see!

have fun at Mentone