Wow - Where did all the users go?

[ToddP]

I was doing a little maintenance today and deleted 187 old inactive accounts.

Criteria: Hadn't logged in for 365 Days
0 - Posts

Just a little housekeeping.

[automan1223]

summer is here, wait for the too cold to fly weather, winter. Things will come back up then.

Jonathan

[spaceman spiff]

I've heard a few people say that a large percent of gyro and UL kits sold never get off the ground. i'm aware of a couple of them myself. They start going on it and drop out for what ever reason. With that in mind, it seems pretty phenomenal to loose that small of a percentage of registered users in a year.

great board you have here, expect it to grow.

[Ron Iaconis]

I was doing a little maintenance today and deleted 187 old inactive accounts.

Criteria: Hadn't logged in for 365 Days
0 - Posts

Just a little housekeeping.

How can I pay a Subscription?

[ToddP]

Hi Ron,

Subscriptions/Donations are entirely voluntary but certainly appreciated. You can find the subscription if you click on "user cp" on the navbar at the top of this page. Then along the left column you will see a link "paid subscriptions".

Thanks!

[Gyro-Cop]

Toddp, I Would Like To Send Check Or Money Order, Pay Pal Not My Stile.
Would You Advise Where To Send Donation.
Gyro-cop

[ToddP]

Gyro-Cop,

Donations can be mailed to:

Todd Powell
9202 N James Ct
Spokane, WA 99208

Thanks for your support!

[Gyro-Cop]

Thanks for the info TODDP, will send Today!!
Gyro-Cop

[gyroplanes]

In my work (and play) I meet a fair number of gyro pilots. The conversation usually gets around to the forum.

I am surprised by the number of lurkers (number one reason given for lurking and not posting: Fear of being "bashed").

Often I hear that they left the forum "because it was way too negative" and "hurt the gyroplane sport more than helped it" or they were "totally confused by the infighting".

More often than not I hear people, even people that regularly post here, say that "they would NOT recommend the forum to newbies".

I offer this e-mail (excerpt) I received just two days ago as an example of the frustration a newbie might feel. In this case he is reporting on information he gleaned here and at chapter meetings.

The sender shall remain nameless as I do not have his permission to post this. He has posted here, belongs to a chapter or two and attended Mentone.

I have excerpted it but it is not out of context.

>>>Tom,
I joined PRA because I thought That after all my research on gyro's that I would be a less costly and fun way to fly.
By joining the two chapters I thought there would be alot to learn from other gyro pilots "which I did get alot of advise" But found out that you get 20 different answers from 20 different people. And Now I am just discouraged because of that and that none of the clubs have any relevant activities to do . Everyone just sits around and bull****s! Or in "J's" case Is full of bull****!

Then Like a stupid ASS I trusted club member "X " that "Y's" gyro was the one to build and I could be able to fly relatively soon once I started building it and then found out that I had more of mine done than "Y" did! Then I started getting into issues with "Y's" Design due to my weight and His design wasn't nearly built for me . So the cost of redesigning parts became an issue and So did the extra cost of building it. I figured it out that I could of bought a Dominator by the time I got done with the "Y" design.

So now I feel its just time to **** can PRA and Gyros all together . I just feel I am at a dead end road in this organization.

"Z"

[Brent_Brown]

I feel bad for him, but if he is a big guy he should look for gyros that are flying with big pilots.

[PW_Plack]

He raises some legitimate issues, but he's short on due dilligence. Same reason so many high-time commercial fixed-wingers seem to get into trouble with experimental gyroplanes. They assume guarantees which cannot be made.

I learned more my first day reading Norm's old forum than I did in four years of PRA membership and local chapter attendance. As for the "negativity," if you can't stay in the room here during an honest argument, you don't learn much about gyros or the credibility of the people discussing them.

[spaceman spiff]

The RAF guys sure get hacked on a lot here, even when they are doing drop keels and stabs.

[GyroRon]

Tom, my opinion is if he would get out of lurker mode and post some questions he would get some answers. Anyone is going to get more out of this forum than you can get anywhere else. If this person reads this forum and doesn't speak up, then they have sold themselves short, not the otherway around.

Spaceman, Yes there can be some heat thrown at some people here, especially RAF guys. I know it seems unfair and it is unfair. Many MANY times I have said to myself and others.... I should just keep my mouth shut and be positive and let people fly what they want and let people say what they want about what they fly. I fear though that if no one said anything we would be seeing more accidents and more bad press for our sport. You have to understand that it has been a fight for the last 10 or more years, A fight to accept that thrustline to VCG means something, a fight that horizontal stabs work and are much needed, a fight over many things that seem to almost be commonplace these days. 5 years ago you would not see many RAFs with stabs, none with drop keel mods, there would be no Sparrowhawk.... if you saw a Aircommand it would be most likely low to the ground like yours, etc.... The problem is even the worse gyro will fly and seem to fly well, so it is hard to accept that some changes to a design can make it MUCH safer since the gyro already flys and seems to fly well. To get people to the point their at today has taken alot of work and I wish it could have been work that didn't result in hurt feelings, but some times people just don't have thick enough skin I guess.

[Aussie_Paul]

Tom, my opinion is if he would get out of lurker mode and post some questions he would get some answers. Anyone is going to get more out of this forum than you can get anywhere else. If this person reads this forum and doesn't speak up, then they have sold themselves short, not the otherway around.

Spaceman, Yes there can be some heat thrown at some people here, especially RAF guys. I know it seems unfair and it is unfair. Many MANY times I have said to myself and others.... I should just keep my mouth shut and be positive and let people fly what they want and let people say what they want about what they fly. I fear though that if no one said anything we would be seeing more accidents and more bad press for our sport. You have to understand that it has been a fight for the last 10 or more years, A fight to accept that thrustline to VCG means something, a fight that horizontal stabs work and are much needed, a fight over many things that seem to almost be commonplace these days. 5 years ago you would not see many RAFs with stabs, none with drop keel mods, there would be no Sparrowhawk.... if you saw a Aircommand it would be most likely low to the ground like yours, etc.... The problem is even the worse gyro will fly and seem to fly well, so it is hard to accept that some changes to a design can make it MUCH safer since the gyro already flys and seems to fly well. To get people to the point their at today has taken alot of work and I wish it could have been work that didn't result in hurt feelings, but some times people just don't have thick enough skin I guess.

Ron, my sentiments as well, as I have said many times, "Is that gyro going to help or hinder a newbie with basic dual training?"

As a group, who love our choice of flying machines, we have to make sure that the newbies are cared for with the correct info for them. Not for Ron or Paul or Stan, and all the experienced gyro people who can fly even the most unstable gyro, BUT the newbies!!!

Who agrees with this logic?

Oooops, I have strayed from the thread!!!! Sorry.

Aussie Paul. :)

[ToddP]

First, I started this thread to only point out I had cleaned out some old unused member accounts from the database. I only made a note of it because I thought some might wonder why the number of users dropped from 1500+ at the time to a little under 1400. It was just a little housekeeping. It had nothing to do with the popularity of the forum.

If a person feels things are a little too harsh, or confrontational here, then gyro's probably aren't for them. I've told countless people "you've gotta have thick skin to fly a gyro". If a person gets scared off because of disagreements amongst people who love the sport, good luck at the local airport with a group of self proclaimed experts looking over your "death trap".

Just my 2 cents

[JRB549]

From a greenhorn's point of view, and a few years on this frame I feel that it should be understood. We can agree to disagree with the idea being to learn. To sort out truth from B.S. will take place anywhere work,games,ect...
I knew coming into this great world of flying that I have to learn alot, and like anything started it will not be what I have bilt it up to be in my mind. In order to keep the center of the runway in view i must keep my eyes on it, if I let what I think is offencive to me get to me i have just taken my eyes off the runway. That's a problem.


In the words of someone somewhere long long ago, "stay the course" dont lose focus on what matters to you, no matter what people might say, just fly safe.

[mrford61]

This forum is excellent as an educational centre and a social centre.

There are all sorts of personality,s , humility, Technical, arrogance, humour, bigotry, and soapboxers. About the same as any gathering of enthusiasts on any subject.

I dare say most of you visit other forums of other interests / hobbies you have. I do and believe me this one is most gentlemanly.

One of the others I frequent has a section heading " The Fight Club" where it is no holds barred.

And that forum is just to discuss the greatest game of all! ( Rugby League that is :D )

[Greg Mitchell]

Mark,
Can you give me the link for that League Forum. I concur with your comments.
Cheers,
Mitch.

[mrford61]

G,day Greg,

I will give it a go.
Love my League. Been in the territory for 25+ years but grew up in Newcastle in NSW.
So I am a passionate Knights supporter ( wooden spoon this year :o )
Who,s your team Greg?


Spent this weekend putting another ea81 into the gyro, I will post some pics when she is up and flying in a week or so.

Cheers for now,

Mark.


http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/

I think this will work.

[Greg Mitchell]

Cheers Mark,
Having travelled around Oz and lived in almost every State and Territory, come game time, I'm mostly looking for a great hard hits contest, with some specky tries throwen into the mix. New South Welshman as yourself Mark, so I guess we are down to 3 home teams against the Cowboys. Bigger than Ben Hur and the SuperBowl combined.
That should get a bite from the home team, hey Mark.
As a kid I followed South Sydney 'Rabbito's'

Look forward to the gyro pics Mark.

Cheers Bloke.

Mitch.

[bones]

so I guess we are down to 3 home teams against the Cowboys. Bigger than Ben Hur and the SuperBowl combined.
That should get a bite from the home team, hey Mark.
If your talkin about me Mitch, yah i follow the Cowboys but i think they will be pushin sh*t up hill to get over the Eels the way both teams are playing, but stranger things have happened...

[GyroRon]

Leave it to the Aussies to get even a thread like this off topic ;)

[mrford61]

Bones, Eels by 20+ but no one would be happier than me to see the Eels get rolled.

I like the Tigers' chances against St George though.



Ron, League is religion, and takes precedence over all thread topics ! ;)


Mark Clifford - Aus.

[KenSandyEggo]

I personally like "The Cows." They kick ass.

[mrford61]

Thats not a cow............This is a cow !!!!

[Aussie_Paul]

Leave it to the Aussies to get even a thread like this off topic ;)

...... Not me, not me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Aussie Paul. :)

[Chopper Reid]

I can understand why a lot of people have left the forum. I have become a "lurker" to a large extent and only post when something humourous is happening or a few Aussies are having a chit chat.
There are a number of reasons people leave and one of them is clearly the CLT issue as well as the RAF issue. Some of the attempts to explain the issues border on hostile and some posters have hardly any gyro experience other than having read a book about them and are suddenly experts !!
You have a number and we in the Australia forum also, of high time pilots who wont post partly because of the above.


Its obvious that some posters are accepted and other's are given the cold shoulder.

[Ted Eggleston]

Yes I concur wholeheatedly with Brian. Sometimes the pace of the forum can be off putting to newbies, but since it also caters for the experienced people as well, newbies need to understand that they may not be up to speed.

Its also true that at time newbies have been jumped on by some of the personalities on the forum. All I can say is that often we need to think about our responces before posting. Has the question or post been delivered by someone who has an understanding of the sport, if not then tone it down a bit.

Lurkers will always be there, all you can hope is that they will eventually feel comfortable enough to post something.

Ted

[Dean_Dolph]

I would suggest that maybe part of the fault lies with the newby!

It is not unusual to have new posters appear and take issue with those that have been here awhile.

Common sense and courtesy should tell anyone that when you enter a new arena that you take it easy until you are comfortable with how communication is conducted and give the community time to know you and your credentials. And the credentials are sometimes hard to determine since few members provide an in depth profile.

I always get a laugh when I see a newby take issue with C. Beaty and the other people we consider knowledgeble and with loads of experience. To Chuck's credit (and our other experts!) he is patient and accomodating. It is only after a large number of exchanges that I see any of our experts ever show frustration. This frustration is understandable after they have provided the same info to the same person in several different ways and the message still isn't received.

The so called 'bashing' is from the 'bashee's' perspective since the intent of the so called 'basher' is to educate and not cause anyone any mental distress.

It is obvious to me that the 'bashee' has adopted a position that isn't going to be changed despite any evidence that our experts provide that show that the position is incorrect The 'bashee' doesn't want it challenged and in fact it looks like all the 'bashee' wants is validation of the position. A pat on the back, so to speak.

For all we know the newby may end up being a high ranked expert but when entering a new situation you don't acquire points by taking shots at the heros. I doubt if these same people would enter anyone's home and immediately start critiqueing what they find so it is surprising that they feel that they can join us here and exhibit this kind of behaviour.

So, my advice to the lurkers is to join in but let us get to know you before you start telling us how screwed up we are! And if you get some advice that you don't like or want to hear then step back and examine why you feel the negative response.

[junkyardbear]

Hi Guys,
I pretty much have quit posting, because feel have nothing to offer at this point.
Do appreciate the knowledge that everyone gives.

[spaceman spiff]

On behalf of the trouble making newbees (safe to say i fit that category) i appologize for any offence or apearance of disrespect. I have argued a small point a couple times with some weighty individuals here. What i was arguing was basic freshman level physics. It happens to be basic stuff that is learned in a classroom, not in a pilots seat. Although those individuals are outstanding guys, there are times when the Emperor has no clothes, and all it takes to clear it up is a littel kid to speak up.

It seems the way issues get dealt with by some here might use a tune up. Udi and a couple others have suggested that some basic measurements be documented. Great idea. No doubt many will continue to argue about how much of this or that is acceptable, or benefitial in various ways, but it would be a whole lot more credible and productive than opinions and personal attacks. (personal attacks are quite rare here, great site in that respect)

Anyway here is my take on the newbee dilema: i show up asking about horzontle stabs, engine flips etc for my aircommand and no one can give any numbers. i get hounded by many demanding that i get the "clt" kit lest i surely die with weeping and knashing of teeth. Then i click onto another discussion about the Bee, which apears to be another low rider proportioned about the same as mine, but i find the same people think it is great and it has never killed anyone... same thing with the Magni, no one hassleing any magni owner, no hassling any bensen owner.... C beaty pointed out recently that apearances can be misleading, would be nice if some of you guys would take a moment to measure your VCG and post some results.

I realize now, this forum is better than most, but keep in mind most of us have come from some other hobby which has its own forum full of opinions. So many of us are justifyably slow in taking advice.

[KenSandyEggo]

Asking questions is offering something.

[bones]

Anyway here is my take on the newbee dilema: i show up asking about horzontle stabs, engine flips etc for my aircommand and no one can give any numbers. i get hounded by many demanding that i get the "clt" kit lest i surely die with weeping and knashing of teeth. Then i click onto another discussion about the Bee, which apears to be another low rider proportioned about the same as mine, but i find the same people think it is great and it has never killed anyone... same thing with the Magni, no one hassleing any magni owner, no hassling any bensen owner.... C beaty pointed out recently that apearances can be misleading, would be nice if some of you guys would take a moment to measure your VCG and post some results.
Spaceman i dont think i could have put it any better, what i fly and what i do with it, according to all the experts i shouldnt be typing this, i feel it it alot more the way you TREAT it or fly it than WHAT you fly.. just my two cents worth

[spaceman spiff]

Thanks Bones,

Have a question for you. If someone were to respectfully show you that the Bee which looks similar to the proportions of your ship, and has a great safety record, has a VCG/thrustline moment of say 1.5 inches HTL (just picking a number for sake of argument) and a horzontle stab and surface momen of -X- (pick a number) and that your ship, althoug visually similarly proportioned, was not anywhere near those same numbers, and people could demonstrate that your bird would be much more pleasant to fly with some modest amount of modification. Would you be more inclined to consider the advice of that person rather than someone who just preaches and says you will die?

No doubt Doug Riley would take that aproach if the information was available. Most influential person on this board because his aproach IMO.

[GyroRon]

Spaceman, a gyrobee only has 40 horsepower, not 65 like your ship would end up having. That is a BIG difference! That results in over 100 extras pounds of thrust being produced. The gyrobee also has a much taller mast than what your aircommand has which does make the CG higher than it would appear to be - what Chuck Beaty was alluding to - Also most gyrobees have much more significant horizontal tail surfaces than the aircommand stab you would have under the aircommand flying rudder. All of these things make the difference, and is why a gyrobee isn't slammed here but a low rider aircommand is. Even the seat on most gyrobees appears to be higher up the mast than a aircommand.... there just isn't that much in common between these two machines when it comes down to it.

As for getting the CLT kit - I know I was the biggest voice in that debate - I said that and still say that because it is a fairly easy mod, and everything is laid out for you to do, and the results are proven. In the real world I have no doubt that the CLT kit results in a LTL machine by a inch or even a few inches. But it transforms a machine that has tumbled out of the sky and killed MANY many good gyro pilots, into a machine that performs better and is measurably safer.

You came off as a non believer and I got vocal to make sure my point was recieved. It makes me very sad to talk to people who have seen a friend or even in some cases a relative - ask Dean Dolph about Anthonys brother who was killed in his Aircommand - who crashed and died in a gyro that had they did a simple upgrade they would very likely still be here.

You got people like Larry Boyer, and Harry S., and Bones and many others, who think it is more important to learn to fly the machine with it's limitations, and get enough training to be able to fly a machine that has potential to buntover, than to just totally fix that flaw and eliminate that possibility. I agree that most people can learn to safely fly a unsafe machine, but there is no reason to fly that unsafe machine. Some simple mods can take away the chances.

[GyroRon]

Spaceman, Did I ever say you WOULD DIE if you didn't do these mods? I hope not, because I can't know that for sure. I would say your odds of death in your gyro were measureably higher at a lowrider than as a high rider.

I think the three biggest factors in it's good saftey record are the low amount of power they fly with, the very tall mast, and the fact that not many are flying and not many are flying often - in comparison to Aircommand or RAF for example

[spaceman spiff]

Apologies Bro, I do believe in thrustlines and i'm very keen on stabs. Just was having a hard time dealing with what visually apears to be an extreemly broad spectrum of gyros, no hard data to say how different they truly are, safety records of some low riders comparable to high riders.... A simple comparision chart of models with reliable numbers would have saved you and others some grief because guess what? Turns out the Magni is not nearly as HTL as it looks, quite possibly the Bee is not nearly as HTL as it looks, and quite possibly the AC is more HTL than it tends to look to a beginner. A few numbers early on would have helped me a ton.

not here to accuse or piss anyone off, just suggesting a chart of models so we can reduce some potential conflicts with skeptical folks like myself.

[FrankieJ]

As a NEWBY to this forum I find it no different to starting any other new sport - we can all remember when we started a new sport how senior and experienced players would grill us over our wrong doings or choices we made during a game but at the sometime they would give advice and pass on the skills need to become a valuable member of the team - its no different here. I would be very disappointed if I was not corrected by senior members for any wrong or misleading information posted on the forum regarding gryo flying, when I say senior members I'm not talking about how many posts you have on the forum as you could have hundreds of post and no flying experience - I'm talking about members with actual flying experience.
For some people a little knowledge is dangerous and as a NEWBY you do get excited about a new sport and you tend to research and read as much as you can to gain an appreciation for your new sport from this you tend to get involved in matters that are way over your head, rightly or wrongly its away of testing your knowledge as we all know and agree there a various opinons on any number of postings and threads topics on this forum and many experience flyers can not agree on some topics. Yes we maybe a NEWBY to flying gryo’s but don’t forget our work backgrounds we have engineers, doctors, lawyers, mechanics, scientists, seasoned fixed wing & rotor pilots and many other professionals regarded as a NEWBY and all of them can add value based on their background experiences – Think how boring this forum would be if we all had the same opinons and could not express our freedom of speech. If a NEWBY posts something totally ridiculous correct it in away that they learn from it and is not a personal attack, if a NEWBY gets offended by that then they should move on as this sport is not for them as this sport you never stop learning or receiving unsolicited advice


REMEMBER YOU WERE A NEWBY ONCE

[bartc150]

You should never be afraid to post on this forum. Just remember expect different responses to anything you ask or say. I've made some posts that I thought were good and there would be no way someone would not agree, but I was wrong. Like it was mentioned earlier, this would be a boring forum if everyone shared the same opinions. Remember there are no stupid questions, just sometimes expect a smart ass answer, not because were all a-- holes, it just may be a subject that has been covered before that the newbie is unaware of. I only know a couple of you guys personally, but everytime I meet someone new they are always friendly and good company. We're all good people.

[JRB549]

It would be great if there were a starting point for all newbies to go to, sort of like a Q&A site that would cover a lot of issues, to save a lot redundant questions. An uncle told me the first thing I needed to do was read the book "STICK AND RUDDER".
This was my starting point and the rest has been read this ,look here, look there,listen to him, pick those guys brains they know what their talking about etc.....

Most of the posters I don't know but have grab a ton of information from just by reading this forum, but it would be nice if someone could come up with a book something like an automotive Chilton's for gyros that would cover many of the basic, not promotion for any brand but information that when a newbie ask a question he will hear someone say "have you read ---- book yet" start there. I really enjoy this forum it give me a lot of things to look forward to and a lot of people yet to meet so I can put a face to a name, or acronym or A.K.A what ever works.

[gyromike]

but it would be nice if someone could come up with a book something like an automotive Chilton's for gyros that would cover many of the basic, not promotion for any brand but information that when a newbie ask a question he will hear someone say "have you read ---- book yet" start there.


Here ya go:

FAA Rotorcraft Handbook (http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/faa-h-8083-21.pdf)

Free download.

[Chuck Roberg]

Mike, He's not the only one asking. Have you seen this thread yet?

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6124

I agree, a "sticky" thread would be great.

[JRB549]

Thanks mike,
but page cant be found is all I get on that site.

[gyromike]

The FAA recently reorganized their website.
I corrected the above link, but here it is again:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/faa-h-8083-21.pdf

[gyromike]

Mike, He's not the only one asking. Have you seen this thread yet?

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6124

I agree, a "sticky" thread would be great.

Yeah Chuck, I saw it.

But I don't know how it would be best handled.
Someone would first have to search through all of the threads to cull the info or "stick" the threads.
Then someone would have to decide what's fact and what's opinion.

I know how I feel on certain subjects, but not everyone would agree with me.
I think the Rotorcraft Handbook would be a good start, and then use the 'search' function for specifics.

[bones]

Thanks Bones,

Have a question for you. If someone were to respectfully show you that the Bee which looks similar to the proportions of your ship, and has a great safety record, has a VCG/thrustline moment of say 1.5 inches HTL (just picking a number for sake of argument) and a horzontle stab and surface momen of -X- (pick a number) and that your ship, althoug visually similarly proportioned, was not anywhere near those same numbers, and people could demonstrate that your bird would be much more pleasant to fly with some modest amount of modification. Would you be more inclined to consider the advice of that person rather than someone who just preaches and says you will die?

No doubt Doug Riley would take that aproach if the information was available. Most influential person on this board because his aproach IMO.
Ok i've been away for a couple of days so i hope this is not too late or out of context now,
Would you be more inclined to consider the advice of that person rather than someone who just preaches and says you will die?
Of course i would only a fool wouldnt, how ever the one thing to remember is that although my ship looks like a standard a/c it is not, no i havent a clt kit in it, how ever to costumise it for my work, i have made a steel seat tank that holds approx75 lts of fuel, and by doing this and the way i have done it with the high back so weight is up high when full,and with the base of the tank being as thick as it is, while i'm sitting in it the VISUAL thrust line from the centre of the prop goes through just below my shoulder blades, when full throttle is applied the nose goes up, cut the power and it drops, thats good enough for me.
And dont get me wrong i am not again the clt thing, in fact my new gyro is very clt and a tall tail, and all made very precisely with all that in mind, just hope i like the way it flys when i get it.
Main point of my post i guess is dont judge the book by the cover..........

[spaceman spiff]

I probably should not have asked that question. :eek: in case something bad happens to this thread because of it, i appologize. Seemed like a good idea at the time. :D :D

Hopefully the fact that you are curently building a tall tail CLT will be enough to keep those who would be inclined to argue with you reasonably calm. If they do argue with you keep in mind their motive is they are watching out for well being of a fellow gyro brother. Hope that new gyro is everything you expect and more. Raising a glass your direction...

Just to see what happens i asked the Gyrobee guys for input on what their VCG is, (interested in it because of its outstanding safety record and reportedly has very good handling) some nice responces, but no numbers yet.

[mrford61]

Bones, Eels by 20+ but no one would be happier than me to see the Eels get rolled.



Mark Clifford - Aus.

Well, well, well. Bones.... arent you glad I am the worlds worst tipster. :D

Incredible game!

[bones]

No Mark i'm not one for rubbing it in (much)
GO THE COWBOYS :D
ps, i'll take that 20 start now