Can anyone help me????

[Bennie]

My faher and i recently aquired and raf1000 rolling chassie. I just wanted to ask some people's opinion on what the paint job should be. Color,Design, etc..
(I wanna Make it one of a kind)

[C. Beaty]

Sure, Benny, always glad to be of assistance.

Here’s a logo I’d made for an RAF-2000 but it would be no problem to change the artwork if you would like to have a silkscreen made up.

I think the most appropriate color would be black with gold scrollwork.

[Bennie]

well thank you i like it a lot, But i have one question Mr.Beaty,
Who is Dr. Jack? :)

[C. Beaty]

Dr. Jack Kevorkian, AKA Dr. Death. Now in the Michigan State Penitentiary for aiding and abetting suicide.

[Bennie]

Now i understand,thats awesome considering that the old men at my airport call gyrocopters Kevorkians. lol thank you

[spaceman spiff]

LOL That certainly meets the one of a kind criteria.

Have seen some nice pinstripe work done on a couple. maybe you can have someone do a pinup babe sort of thing like they did on some of the WW2 planes?

Someone posted about a nice drop keel chop job done on one of the newer RAFs recently, worth a look.

[GyroRon]

Sure, Benny, always glad to be of assistance.

Here’s a logo I’d made for an RAF-2000 but it would be no problem to change the artwork if you would like to have a silkscreen made up.

I think the most appropriate color would be black with gold scrollwork.


Chuck, I didn't know you had a sense of humor! Thanks for the good laugh!!! :D

[C. Beaty]

Dr. Kevorkian was sentenced to prison in 1999, 6 years ago. Anyone who was conscious at the time could not have helped but to have known about it; his story monopolized the news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian

[C. Beaty]

Chuck, I didn't know you had a sense of humor! Thanks for the good laugh!!! :D

Ron, whether or not something is humorous is in the mind of the beholder.

I doubt if the RAF True Believers, to whom Don TheFlower is Patron Saint, found that a damn bit funny.

However that may be, I was thinking of a paint scheme something like this:

[animal]

Dr. Jack Kevorkian, AKA Dr. Death. Now in the Michigan State Penitentiary for aiding and abetting suicide.

Even though I like the RAF-2000's I have to admit,that one made me spew my milk..lmao.

[dapartlow]

Chuck, Thanks for the laugh.

[davreich]

Hi Benny,
Helpful group aren't they. I would suggest a dark color with various width stripes and bright colors with possible metalic to run along the side window line and keep that same theme for the tail.

Black body with stripes of red,chrome,maroon,?yellow or white? Chrome can be a vinyl graphic stripe or all of them. Just an idea. Dave

[CLS447]

Chuck B. , I am interested to know your opinion on the RAF mod that lowers the engine 6", & modifies the rear keel (are you familiar with it?) & of course uses an effective H-stab.

I mean, isn't the main problem with the RAF the HTL ? So wouldn't anything that brings the TL closer to center be an improvement?

I really like alot of the features of the RAF. Other than the HTL what is your opinion on the rest of the machine?

Please feel free to elaborate so I won't have to repeat the questions.

[birdy]

I'll bite Chris.
A RAF looks good. Unfortunatly, thats as far as it gose.
But with the right mods and a change in some materials it can also be a good flyer, but then its not a RAF anymore is it?.
I'm only a SCG, but even to my eye theres alota lousy engineering and designe in a RAF.
There are a few 'back yard' builders/ manufactuers here in Oz that make these supposedly expertly engineered and precisely built RAFs look like some 4th world druggy built it.
And yes, I still have my 'woz a' RAF.

[CLS447]

Hi Birdy, how you been doin?

I'll bite back....What mods & changes other than the one I spoke of are you talking about? Be specific !

What lousy engeneering & designs are you talking about? Be specific !

I hope that we're not talking about cheap rod ends & tires !

Thanks, Chris

[C. Beaty]

Chris, anything that reduces propeller thrust line/CG offset is bound to improve safety and handling.

Lowering the engine and propeller together amounts to leaving the engine/propeller in place and raising the cabin and rotor. That does reduce propeller offset but isn’t the most effective way of doing so.

The engine is the biggest lump of mass on the machine and unless it is shifted upward relative to the propeller, the thrustline/CG relationship doesn’t move as much as it might appear to do so.

I urge anyone able to do so to spring for the AAI kit.

Reading through the accident reports, one thing that stands out is the propensity for rollovers following a botched landing due to the yaw/torque roll coupling vs. power change. Try to save a landing by banging on more power and the machine rolls and yaws sideways, compounding the difficulty.

The AAI tall tail goes a long way toward reducing airframe squiggle with power change.

[Udi]

Reading through the accident reports, one thing that stands out is the propensity for rollovers following a botched landing due to the yaw/torque roll coupling vs. power change. Try to save a landing by banging on more power and the machine rolls and yaws sideways, compounding the difficulty.

The AAI tall tail goes a long way toward reducing airframe squiggle with power change.
Given that already 3 AAI-mod RAFs (or 2 AAI mods and 1 SH) have tasted asphalt due to "botched landings", I am not sure that your conclusion, Chuck, holds water. Although I agree the AAI-mod RAF is much safer than a stabbed RAF in flight, and the tall tail is reducing torque/yaw issues, their ground handling and ground stability, in my opinion, is problematic.

Udi

[C. Beaty]

I have to confess, Udi, that I haven’t paid that much attention to the landing gear of either the AAI modified or stock RAF machines.

Getting the machine crossed up while trying to save a botched landing is only part of the story.

Perhaps the most important requirement is to have a softly sprung, long stroke and properly damped landing gear.

The static deflection of the wheels determines the ride rate. A 3” static deflection will produce a ride rate of ~100 cycles/minute, about the same as a small pickup truck. Your grandmother’s Cadillac had a ride rate of ~60 cycles/minute.

Proper damping is essential. The rebound is what does the mischief. The dampers should be valved to produce approximately a square law velocity response.

So how does a Cessna get by without dampers while a low wing Piper requires pretty good oleo struts?

The Cessna obtains its dampening from tire scrub; the way Cessna spring gear is laid out causes considerable track change with strut deflection. I understand a Cessna makes a good pogo stick on an iced over runway. The Piper has vertical wheel travel and has to rely on hydraulics for damping.

But tire scrub is a poor way of damping gyro landing gear. Alighting one-wheel first causes it to pole-vault sideways and unlike a wing, a rotor doesn’t have much control with the load removed.

[Doug Riley]

Gyro designers hate to add weight or complexity. These sentiments lead them to design unforgiving landing gears. From Bensen's rigid beam axle to the high-rider Duck Walkers, we have gears that work fine if handled just right, but bite readily when abused a little.

One of the nicest favors a designer of a "for-fun" aircraft can do is make it idiot-resistant ("-proof" is impossible; we idiots are too clever). Chuck's right about damping; the Monarch and Butterfly do what they do by using a combination of long stroke and heavy damping.

Even short of G-gear, though, there's lots that can be done. The geometry of the high-hinged swing axle is poor. I believe the S-H uses this setup. A low hinge (a la Gyrobee and Air Command, among others) would get rid of much of the excitement that goes with a one-wheel landing with these gears.

Some stub axles are too weak. Bensen used 1" x .065 steel tube axles. Some brands have dropped the diameter to 3/4". If the wheel is cantilevered out 3" to accomodate brakes, such a tube will bend at a wheel load of around 550 lb. That's 2G on a 1-place gyro and 1 G (zero safety margin) on a 2-placer.

Nosewheel legs are a pain. Most of them use tubing that's too small in diameter, and then beef up the wall thickness to compensate. You get much more strength for the weight by going to larger diameter tubing or (even better) by triangulating your long gear leg with some diagonal braces.

Also, we should grieve a moment for the convenience of the tiny Bensen, with its five-foot gear width... and then we should increase the gear width substantially for the 9- and 10-foot high machines. It's nuts to be running these rigs with five-foot wide gear. I realize that this doesn't add stability as much in a 3-wheeler as in a 4-wheeler, but, combined with placing the nosewheel as far forward as possible, it will help.

[C. Beaty]

Suspension geometry can be laid out for minimum tire scrub, Doug, that does not resemble a horse drawn hay rake or a fire escape. It does require a stronger than usual vertical strut.

The only way tire scrub can be reduced to zero is to place the roll center at ground level, not always the best choice since lean can become excessive without some sort of anti-roll spring.

[Harry_S.]

Reading through the accident reports, one thing that stands out is the propensity for rollovers following a botched landing due to the yaw/torque roll coupling vs. power change. Try to save a landing by banging on more power and the machine rolls and yaws sideways, compounding the difficulty.



I have to nod in agreement with the above, Chuck.

With experience, comes the ability to control the above sequence...but how to gain that experience...without bashing a landing...to get there?

At my field, we have an E/W sod strip intersecting the N/S hard surface. I'll takeoff on the N/S and most of the time, land on the E/W.

There is a *humongous* Live Oak tree at the N/W corner of the taxi-way to the E/W strip. When there is a brisk N/E wind, I like to land on the 09 strip as I get good practice on what you cited above.

I vary my descent angle and airspeed so that my touchdown spot is, or I try to be, the same on every approach...and that is just at the taxi-way intersection. Most approaches are about right on for my spot...until I hit that wind break from that tree...at 30-50 ft. I'll drop like a rock. To recover, I bang in the power and work the stick, get back to level flight, reduce power and land...or continue around for another practice shot.

On different occasions, I have purposely got to zero airspeed at about 10 ft. over the runway...banged in the power and recovered nicely.

I don't recommend any of the above practices to be done solo by a low time pilot...but maybe could/should be practiced with his CFI aboard.


Cheers
:)

[C. Beaty]

The yaw/roll coupling vs. throttle setting is something that can be managed quite nicely with experience, Harry.

A Bensen is actually quite bad for yaw/throttle coupling; -a vertical tail that just spans ½ of the propeller slipstream gets a lot of corkscrewing from the prop whirlwind because with a smaller diameter propeller, the slipstream has more rotation with higher rpm- but developing the coordination wasn’t that difficult. It’s second nature after a while to do the rudder pedal toe dance on the takeoff roll. Even changing over to a VW engine with opposite rotation didn’t take long accommodate to.

But I’ve seen a lot of practice pilots unable to keep a Bensen on the runway.

But if a Bensen rolled over, it wasn’t that big of a financial catastrophe. We used to get in the air for less than $400; plywood blades and a shot down Mac.

Still, with a tall tail, you track straight down the runway without having to do anything.

[TomCarlisle]

I think a lot of the RAF rollover on landing is due mostly to the tight steering/rudder coupling. I know when I touch down, if I don't hold the nose wheel up until forward motion is stopped, the RAF will shoot off to the right very quickly when the nose wheel touches. I have gotten into the habit of holding full rear stick until forward motion stops, then let the nose settle and start taxing very slowly until I have it under control. I have almost lost it a couple of times, but there was enough control left in the rotor to catch it.

[C. Beaty]

Tom, I have never liked coupled nosewheel/rudder steering.

When I first began learning on a Bensen, the old timers all informed me that the nosewheel ought to be tied to the rudder pedals because nosewheel steering was backwards.

But it wasn’t backwards for me. The first vehicle I mastered was a tricycle and the Bensen steering pegs were exactly the same. For me, the rudder pedals were backwards.

Because rudder pedals are backwards relative to bicycles and tricycles, the Wright Brothers crossed their rudder cables. Glen Curtis came along and taught himself to fly with uncrossed redder cables and airplanes have been that way ever since.

[ben]

gents,
excuse me one minute but i think my 16yearold was only asking for some help about a paint job on his ship!!!!!!

[dapartlow]

Ben/Bennie, I did not make the conection . I would like to see some pictures please. Bennie welcome aboard.

[GyroRon]

Ben, how did you finally get online>???

[C. Beaty]

Bennie seems like a nice kid.

[Harry_S.]

With that avatar...I missed the connection, as well. :D


Cheers :)

[scottessex]

Hey Ben send it down here, i know a guy who can paint. :D

[LARRYEBOYER]

Tom C. You are right on the proper technique to land especially on asphalt. On grass is is not much of an issue. I have had the exact experience landing on a paved runway with a cross wind. The aircraft kicked left on me and it started to tip. I got it under control but it would have been expensive and embarrassing as it was at a flyin breakfast!

Chuck. if I had 1/10 of the smarts you have when it comes to knowledge of engineering and gyros, I would have to be the age of Methusala( a Bible character who lived over 900 years old for those non biblical scholars :) )and study every day.But I also know that what the slide rule says is not what the reality of the situation produces sometimes. The mod I did on my machine was the right thing to do.Against the slide rule that said raise the engine, I lowered it because I wanted to move the heavy masses closer to each other. It worked. Any one who flies this machine will know what I am talking about.i have achieved a better clt machine. i don't know whether it was you, but some one emailed me and said I was wasting my time. They were wrong.

[spaceman spiff]

Benie,

Give some info on what you like. There are an infinite number of variations possible, but they can fall into basic catagories. For example;

Pin-stripe patterns, kinda like tatoos for your gyro, maybe a trip to the local tatoo shop will ispire some patterns (don't get carried away though, having ink in your skin for life kinda sucks)

Themes like the WW2 bombers, star trek ship, patriotic scenes, mythological beasts, cartoon characters (you might be able to guess my favortite). Themes should reflect their owners personality and interests.

Flames. Many variations, some are simple others can have very intricate patterns or images placed in them. I did a flame job on my favorite golf club a while back using simple decal material. Very simple, but a big hit (pardon the pun)

Maybe just keep it simple so you are painting diferent parts different colors... I'm painting most of my frame white to match my new blades and HS (formerly black) and painting my rudder, instrument pod and winglets red, then probably will toss on a small Spaceman Spiff decal on the rudder, and call it done.

Whatever you do don't allow your girlfriend to pick colors.

[Bennie]

As far as the main paint job goes, i was thinking of a two tone job kind of like a VW bus from the 70s.What i cant decide on is what colors to make it.I was thinking green and creme.But im not quite sure yet if it should be a pale green or a metalflake forrest green.
thanks-Bennie

[spaceman spiff]

I saw a nice bug, in a very dark green and cream two tone a while back, gorgeus. The way the body of the VW is constructed really lends itself to that kind of format. not sure how to devide up the RAF. maybe pod and tail in cream and the mast and keel in Darg green? Maybe a split line a foot or so from the bottom and a pinstripe?

How about on the rudder and stab, the leading edge has green for a few inches back, which follows the line around, then tapers to a point on top of the rudder, can do about the same on the pod. Front and top is green, curved devide line that follows the door frame, then cream on the sides.

[Bennie]

well as the frame goes, i was thinking of powdercoating some parts green and some parts black. As the pod and tail go i was thinking of making the underside cream and the top half green. The two colors would be seperated by a line of black.

[Doug Riley]

Hey, Bennie, do you use a color wheel? It's a handy gadget for working up paint schemes. They sell them in craft/art shops. The wheel reproduces the colors of the spectrum, arranged in a specific order around a circle. Any two colors that will go well together are 180 degrees apart on the circle. For a 3-color job, the separation is 120 degrees.

For the typical color-challenged male, this tool will produce some nice and often surprising combos.

As for Larry Boyer's RAF mod, when are we going to get a peek? In tasks as basic as arranging weights, physics does not lie, not ever. Wishing REALLY hard only produces results in Never-Never Land, which is not where any of us lives. If the mod has indeed worked out (as seems to be the case), then the physics of it will check out.

[spaceman spiff]

Larry mentioned it was inspired by Ausie Paul.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5720

Basically chop the keel and make a section that dips down a few inches. Eyes are out of calibration, but it looked like 5 or 6 inches(?) i guess it has the effect of raising the body, occupants landing gear and tail. Makes a big difference no doubt.

[Doug Riley]

Spiff, if that's the case, then this sounds like a matter of nomenclature.

Unless you shorten the prop, you can't REALLY lower the engine much at all. "Lowering" it relative to the body by "dropping the keel" actually means raising the front end relative to the prop thrustline. The prop thrustline stays the same distance off the ground for clearance reasons.

Two guys and a big fiberglass pod weigh more than the engine does, so this really is a standard way to approach CLT. The only real question is how close one can get to CLT by this "cabin only" approach.

If you move weight A by distance X inches, amd the whole gyro weighs B lbs., the CG moves up by less than X. Specifically, the CG moves a distance of A/B TIMES X. Move half the gyro's weight a foot and the CG moves six inches.

[spaceman spiff]

Yes sir, similar animal, shorter legs.

Forgot to mention... It also has the effect of raising the head and blades a bit as well. Not sure how the gear box is, but if it is flip-able from an upright to an inverted the engine might stay in more or less the same position as before, (Ausy Paul's mod was like that if memory serves) so the moment change would be (change in prop line) X (weight of just about everything).

Assuming the cab and occupants weighs half, and the drive is flip-able, lowering the thrust line 4 inches is equal to 8 inches of raising the cabin. Paul said it made the beast handle quite a bit better. Have no idea if it would make it to CLT, but seems like it might be a simple way of moving in the right direction (?)

Kinda seems like the body acts a little like a pendulum under the disk when you are turning or flairing for a landing, so lowering the thrust line alone might have a different effect on handling than moving the pod up (shorter pendulum) not sure which is better in that respect. Never flown an RAF, but i noticed i had an easier time managing the flair for landings in the Sparowhawk than i do in a low rider tandem AC.

(just a beginner observation, i reserve the right to retract that as more experience comes)

BTW, thanks for your patience.

[C. Beaty]

i don't know whether it was you, but some one emailed me and said I was wasting my time. They were wrong.

I don't offer unsolicited advice by private E-mail.

[davreich]

Hi Ben,
I gave your idea a try with newer metalic vw and audi colors (pearl). There is alot you can do with vinyl graphics and metalic vinyl (chrome). Dave

[birdy]

Bit hard to change the TL on a 914 chuck. ;)
Dose AAI do 914 conversons?? [or are all you yanks hooked on gass guzzl'n HEAVY soobs :rolleyes: .]
Sure I only dropped the TL only bout 6" with the 914, but theres also alot less weight down low now too, so it'd have the effect of lowering the TL more than the 'physical' amount.[6"]. :)
[gota take them pics :mad: ]

[CLS447]

Birdy, you didn't answer my questions !

I am serious. Please be specific. Chris

[C. Beaty]

Baby Ben,* about the only thing useful I’ve seen done with an RAF-1000 cabin is this gyro Dick DeGraw built for his wife, Karol. I think Dick won the cabin as a door prize.

The rotor is partially powered with ~14% of engine power being applied to the rotor via a torque splitter. The cyclic control system incorporates a spring detent stick lock.

On long cross country flights, Karol trims for airspeed and altitude, locks the stick and maintains heading control with rudder.

I don’t think she takes catnaps but is able to catch up with her reading to pass the time on long flights.

Yellow may or may not be your favorite color but gyros are nearly invisible to other pilots so it’s important that they be painted with bright colors to contrast both the ground and sky. White is the most visible color.

*A Baby Ben was a ubiquitous American made alarm clock from a bygone era. Big Ben, as you no doubt know, is the massive tower clock that overlooks Parliament.

[mceagle]

I think Dick won the cabin as a door prize.Second prize was two RAF Cabins. ;)
That Raf 1000 cabin should be stable with those tail feathers.

[OzyRuss]

The majority, if not all gyros have the pedals doing a dual role......stearing and rudder TOGETHER.
OK......have the pedals to the stearing, inline connected with pull springs,
You come in to land with rudder input as required to keep it straight, The stearing nose wheel is now offset also, when the nose wheel hits the ground it will over ride your pedal setting coz the inline springs will then allow the nosewheel to self centre......have this on my trainer, works a treat.

The ONLY drawback is turning around real tite on the ground, not the best, but I can live with that.

[Udi]

Larry, correct me if I am wrong. If I remember correctly, Larry has the "ultimate stab" on his modified RAF. This stub, if memory serves me right, is very large and has a down-lifting profile. I think the combination of lowering the engine/prop 5-6", and placing a large downloading stab inside the prop wash has effectively made this gyro “CLT-like", or very close to it.

As mentioned before, a very large stab adds to gyro pitch stability not only by helping get the RTV close to, or forward of, the CG, but also due to its high lift slope, relative to the rotor. This effect cannot cancel PPO moments, but it certainly can help make the gyro pitch stable.

Larry, it would be great if you can have your gyro flight tested by one of the "gurus". I think the modification Larry has made to his RAF 2000 is as good as it gets, short of going with an AAI kit.

Udi

[CLS447]

Udi, Larry is on vacation again, but I can answer that.

Larry had the "Bad Stab" by LM on for the original flight tests but is now swapping the "Ultimate Stab" he had on the "Lucky Lady" RAF.

The bad stab is wider & had to be flexed to fit through his shed door. He has not flown the modified RAF with the ultimate stab yet, but he feels it will improve it even further.

My only fear is that when I build my modified RAF, I am not sure if I will be able to get one of those beautiful Larry Martin stabs for it !!

[birdy]

Birdy, you didn't answer my questions
I did, but not directly, Sorry Chris. :o
The 914 makes the biggest difference as you could imagine, lighter, lowered TL, less fuel burn, more reliable........................
Heavy, shorter extruded Alu rotors[28'] also raised the COM, more efficiant, much smoother and more inertia.
Little things like the reconfigured stick, real suspension on the mains, more cumfy seat, reconfigured trim springs..................... have turned a sow's ear into a real silk purse. :D

[Aussie_Paul]

...reconfigured trim springs....

Could you please enlighten us as what this "reconfigured trim springs" mod is? Thanks.

Aussie Paul. :)

[birdy]

Giday PB, good ta hear from you again.
The trim thingy is pretty simple realy, but makes a big difference.
I couldn't figure why the stick was so heavy in the RAF, then the penny dropped, every input you do, your pulling on one of the short heavy springs, so I just added a heavy centered spring to take most of the trimm tension, and used two light springs on the adjustable thingys. Now its nearly as light as the ferel one up.

[Aussie_Paul]

Thanks Birdy. I did something similar a few years ago with G-200. I had it so that I connected the third spring, as set up on a standard Bensen, for dual and removed one end for solo. That way I did not have to use the trim wheels so much.

What diameter is the prop on your Raf 914?

Aussie Paul.:)

[Harry_S.]

Thanks Birdy. I did something similar a few years ago with G-200. I had it so that I connected the third spring, as set up on a standard Bensen, for dual and removed one end for solo. That way I did not have to use the trim wheels so much.

Aussie Paul.:)

Could we have a pic or two?!

Thanks.


Cheers. :)

[birdy]

62" Ivo mag Paul.
Did you still use the heavy RAF trim springs tho??

[Aussie_Paul]

62" Ivo mag Paul.
Did you still use the heavy RAF trim springs tho??

Yeah Birdy, I was not smart enought to realise!!!!! :o I just did it for the trim situation. Ok on the 62". I can't remember what diameter the Magni had.

Aussie Paul. :)