Bill Ortmayer

[Rotornut]

FLAGLER COUNTY, FL -- One person is dead after an Ultra Light crashed near the airport.

The plane was taking off Friday night from the Flagler County Airport in Bunnell, when it went crashing to the ground.

Investigators say the plane's propeller fell off just after take-off.

A second person was airlifted to Halifax Medical Center in Daytona.

BJ Taylor emailed us asking if we know anything about who Bills Student was. I have no idea. Waiting to see who it was, and to see how Bill is doing.

Dont have anymore info at this time.

MJ :(

[Rotornut]

Gyroplane's injured pilot recovering


Staff Report

Last update: 14 March 2004


Palm Coast pilot Bill Ortmayer injured a hand during a gyroplane crash that killed a Jacksonville man but was in satisfactory condition Saturday at Halifax Medical Center, according to a friend of Ortmayer's family.

Ortmayer, 59, was teaching Ashley J. Godeaux, 54, how to fly the two-seat gyroplane Friday when it tipped over during takeoff at the Flagler County Airport.

The top propeller broke loose and the blades struck Godeaux on the head.

John Kane of Seminole Woods watched the accident happen at 6:30 p.m. while he sat on the back patio of High Jackers Restaurant at the airport.

The gyroplane leaned to the left during takeoff and never got more than a few feet off the runway, Kane said. Then he saw the aircraft tip over and the propeller detach when the blades hit the ground.

"It wasn't windy, so I don't know why it pitched to the left," Kane said.

The National Transportation Safety Board and the Florida Highway Patrol are investigating the crash.

The NTSB will determine the cause of the accident, including whether mechanical defects came into play, said Lt. Terry Cope, FHP's regional shift commander.

A state homicide investigator will look into whether someone sabotaged the gyroplane or whether it was strictly an accident, Cope said.

[ToddP]

What a tragedy. I always hate to see these reports. This accident kinda sounds like a mechanical malfunction. To suddenly rollover on takeoff with a high time instructor on board.

[Chuck Irby]

That is sad, to say the least. We will probably never know for sure what really happened.

[Rotornut]

Here's the original article from the same newspaper, MJ.

Student pilot killed in gyroplane accident

By SCOTT WYLAND
Staff Writer

Last update: 13 March 2004

PALM COAST -- A 54-year-old Jacksonville man learning to fly a
gyroplane was killed Friday just after dark at Flagler County Airport when the
aircraft's top blades broke off during a takeoff attempt and struck him
in the head, authorities said.

Bill Ortmayer, a licensed pilot from Palm Coast, was teaching Ashley J.
Godeaux to fly the 1994 double-rotor gyroplane when the accident
happened at 6:44 p.m. on a runway near Gore Lake, according to airport
officials.

The two-seat gyroplane was headed east on the runway, with Ortmayer in
back and Godeaux in the front seat, when the top blades broke off,
striking Godeaux in the head, the Florida Highway Patrol said. The craft
then traveled off the runway onto a grassy area before stopping.

Both Ortmayer and Godeaux were wearing seat belts and helmets, the FHP
said.

Ortmayer, 59, a Flagler Palm Coast High School teacher, was airlifted
to Halifax Medical Center with "incapacitating" injuries, the FHP said.
His condition was not available Friday night.

Authorities were uncertain why the gyroplane's top blades broke off. .

"The wind can blow them over because they're so light," said Troy
Harper of Flagler County Emergency Management .

Police, firefighters and emergency medical teams arrived at the scene
at 6:54 p.m.

Blue runway lights and yellow tape encircled a grassy area where the
gyroplane's wreckage lay in a twisted heap. Damage to the craft was
estimated at $6,000.

The Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation
Safety Board are investigating the incident, said Jim Jarrell, airport
manager.

Ortmayer is an experienced pilot who has taught gyroplane flying
lessons for years, Jarrell said.

Gyroplane pilots must be licensed, and they must be FAA-certified to
teach, Jarrell said. In that sense, "this is just like any other type of
aircraft."

Ortmayer was the only local pilot who flew a gyroplane, Jarrell said.
Ortmayer stored the craft at the Flagler airport, where he taught
students how to fly the machine.

Seven years ago -- almost to the day -- Ortmayer's friend, Bill
Parsons, also a pilot, died in a gyroplane crash at the airport. After that
crash, Ortmayer had credited Parsons with inventing the two-seat
gyroplane, the same type of aircraft that crashed Friday.

Gyroplanes can be bought fully assembled or in a kit for $6,500 to
$30,000. The typical model has a motor-driven rear propeller that pushes
the aircraft forward and a wind-driven overhead rotor that lifts it.

"There are not very many of them," Jarrell said, noting the aircraft
had its heyday in the 1960s and '70s. "It's not a widely used aircraft."

Fifty-seven gyroplane crashes were recorded nationwide in the past four
years, 20 of them fatal, according to the National Transportation
Safety Board. Before Friday, the most recent gyroplane crash was in New
Smyrna Beach in June 2003, but no one died.

scott.wyland@news-jrnl.com

-- Staff writers Barry Gear and Patricio G. Balona contributed to this
report.

Editor's note: This corrected version was published 3/13/04.

[MattPearson]

This is truly frustrating. There is some definite conflicting information here. One report says the rotor came off before impact another says it came off after the blades hit the ground. It's always frustrating when a newspaper reporter reports on something he/she knows nothing about. Then you have the EMS guy saying that the "wind can just blow them over because they are so light."
I know that there is much more to the story than what has been revealed. I guess the investigation will shed some light on this case.

[Chuck Irby]

Matt,

I agree. Reporters should be required to get a pilot who is experienced with the particular type of aircraft involved, in any accident, to edit his piece prior to publishing.

[Screw]

Someone stated the aircraft tipted to the left during takeoff and caused a rotor strike.

Doesn't that happen if you attemp to takeoff with to little rotor speed? Advancing blade/ retreating blade creating unequal lift?

John-

[barnstorm2]

Terrible. :(

John, that is the first thing that went though my mind. RRPM decay.

Could a blade fracture if it is too old?

[Aussie_Paul]

A more likely scenario than blade flap could be an axle failure allowing the machine to "fall over" and have rotor strike.

Aussie Paul.

[GyroRon]

Not to imply that there is any truth to that Paul, but I have been told Bill was not good at upkeep on his Machine.

[Chuck Irby]

Wow Ron, I sure hope that doesn't turn out to be the cause.

[Screw]

Me too.

John-

[GyroRon]

Well and me too, I don't know Bill or have ever seen his machine. I am only telling you what a friend of mine Observed. This friend trained with Bill and had expressed concern for the condition the gyro was in back then. I am not saying there is any truth to any of it, for all I know Bills machine was the best built and maintained gyro on Earth, but if the stuff my friend says is true and that is how Bill kept up with the machine, then it is a possibility that something could have broke and contributed to this sad accident.

[MattPearson]

I also remember reading on the other forum some time ago that someone was very displeased with the overall condition of Bill's ship, especially since he was an instructor.

[GyroRon]

My friend was probably the one your talking about Matt.

Is Super Fly still on the slab?

[MattPearson]

Well, if your asking, yes, but I am still having a blast flying it. I will probably buy a Monarch if I sell it. Maybe a two place.

[Heron]

Well . . .that says a lot about the Monarch doesn't?
Matt's Gyro is a fine machine and very powerfull.
After flying the Monarch fist time, Matt came down with a grin bigger than a week and an adrenaline rush that lasted the rest of the day!
Heron

[Chuck Irby]

Has anyone heard what kind of blades he was using? I can't imigine one of them getting hit in the head by a blade or even a blade fragment, even if they were glass blades.

[GyroRon]

Matt, what about parts and service for that 2si engine on your machine? Any luck on that?

glad to hear your going to stay with gyros.

[Doug Riley]

Occupants of gyros have been killed before by blades striking them during a blade wipeout. It's not common, but it happens. In a hard ground strike, blades often curl inward like a horseshoe, so that the tips end up near the occupant(s).

A folded-up blade just about broke my arm in a tipover a couple years ago. It was my throttle arm, which of course is out to the side where it can be hit easily.

[Heron]

Where are all the Florida guys when you need them?
They could jump in here and give us more info on this sad thing!
Heron

[Chuck Irby]

Good info Doug. Thanx.

[Rotornut]

Heron, We posted what we know. No sense in us saying anything we are not sure about. MJ :)

[GyroRon]

I got this in a email from another PRA Chapter 13 member who spoke to someone close to Bill. I didn't get permission to post this here, but I think it will be okay. I may pull this post if there any a problem with forwarding it here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bill and student had been flying about an hour. At there last
landing the gyro touch down a few seconds passed then the rotor blade came
off of the machine while they were on the runway. The blade came down the
left side of the machine hitting Bills left hand then walking itself around
the machine taking off the prop blades and rudder and back up the right side
hitting the student in the front seat in the head and killing the student
instantly. The gyro then rolled off into the grass. The gyro did not tip
over! It remained on its wheels the whole time! His wife is disgusted with
the medias reports. She said that Bill was unable to comment so they just
made things up. She said the media was calling Bill at the Hospital right
after the accident. Bill was taken to Halifax in Daytona Beach. He lost his
middle and forefinger and some of his thumb. The fingers left are
questionable. They will try to save them in the next surgery. Many other
bones in his hand are shattered. I don't know how his leg was fractured in
couple of places. That blade must have done some real work. Bill does not
have any internal injuries and should be out of the hospital in about 2
weeks.-----

[GyroRon]

I have heard - may not be true - that he used the older style RAF rotorblades.

[Doug Riley]

In North America, our rotors customarily turn counter-clockwise viewed from above. Such a rotor, coming off in one piece, would "walk" the other way around from this description.

Then there's the question of how a rotor can hold up a half-ton gyro for an hour and then fall off when it's not bearing any load beyond its own weight.

There must be more to this sad story.

[ahancock]

could this have been a severe retreating blade stall with failure of something in the rotor head?

[Screw]

I agree Doug. Something had to have happened on the ground to make the blade detatch itself.

John-

[Heron]

Hi M.J. I know that you may be one of the most preocupied of the entire group, just saying that someone on the neighborhood could find out for sure some info.
The last report is kinda funny but metal with stored energy can do weird stuff.
What happens if the hub bar breaks in that situation? could be an enormous big flap just before the detachment?
Heron (always wondering)

[Harry_S.]

Easy everyone, please. Let's not go overboard.

Let us get more information.

[Rotornut]

Thank You Harry! MJ

[GyroRon]

My post above was copy and pasted from a member of our chapter who got that email directly from Bills Wife.

[mceagle]

Doug,
"Then there's the question of how a rotor can hold up a half-ton gyro for an hour and then fall off when it's not bearing any load beyond its own weight."

If I hadn't known of this myself I wouldn't have thought it possible.
About 6 years ago Mark O'Connor had just finished two hours of mustering and he did a big "wing over" turn to drop the Gyro beside his offsider with the fuel drum. He stopped the rotors, tied them and filled up with fuel. After a five minute yarn he grabbed the tow boom and pulled the gyro away from the fuel drum and as he did so the Joystick flopped from one side to the other (as they do) and he thought that it made a slightly different noise than usual. Unperturbed he stood on the seat and started to hand start the blades. While doing so he noticed excess movement between the main bearing block and the torque tube. He stopped the blades and then lifted them and the head straight off the gyro. the main bolt (5/8") had broken off right at the end of the thread.
This incident did not do much for our confidence around here for a while.
Mark is still flying and now has just under 5000 hours up

Back to your origonal statement - perhaps it might be worth looking into exactly how this can possibly happen. It dosen't seen possible to me.

[Chuck Irby]

Tim, do you know for sure that bolt was an "AN"?

[mceagle]

The bolt was not an AN bolt, however even if it was it would not necessarily guarantee that it would have been any more reliable. I think it was in an earlier PRA mag that I read about 6 new AN head bearing bolts that were sent away for testing and one was found to be cracked

[Chuck Roberg]

One of our clubmembers is a friend of Bill Ortmayer and he talked with Bill in the hospital. In addition he talked with an eyewitness to the accident.

The way I understand it, the rotorblades were RAF and theres a spanwise 3/4" bolt that holds them on in shear. Seems the head of the bolt broke off causing the blades to depart the aircraft. A search of the runway after the accident found the bolt.

Luckily the bolt did not give while in flight. Otherwise I'm sure it would have been called a classic PIO accident.

Bill does have several injuries to his arm and leg.

I'm unfamiliar with the setup on the RAF blades. Can someone else shed some light here.

Tom Milton knows more details. I asked him to post the info here but he's never visited the Rotary Wing Forum. Tom tried to post it on Norm's site. But since it's down at the present time he couldn't.

I wish Bill a speedy recovery. And I hope to see future articles from him in the PRA magazine.

[Chuck Irby]

A 3/4" bolt sounds too large. I have difficulty even believing it could have been a 5/8". But there again, I have no experience with a RAF. Was the bolt in question the teeter bolt ?

[GyroRon]

More to the story I am sure. I can't say any of this is true cause I didn't see it with my own eyes, but I have a friend who trained with Bill a few years ago.

His observations - he wasn't a gyro pilot yet of course but he was a Master Mechanic - Was that the machine was slap wore out. He said that he never saw Bill look at the blades once during the solid week he was with Bill for training. But my firend did look at the blades and noticed Rust, Heavy rust , build up on the blade hardware. He was flying 30 foot RAF blades back then and also the same at the crash so it may have been the same set. I wonder if he ever changed out the rusted bolts?

My friend who I am refering to posted a long post telling his whole story, but some of it was in poor taste due to the circumstances IMHO. I asked him to pull the post so as not to Piss anyone off. But maybe he can come back on here and share his observations now.

[Chuck Irby]

Ron, that would be of real interest to me if he would. In particular, I would really like to learn more about the teeter bolt.

[Chuck Roberg]

Chuck, I could be wrong about the bolt size. I'm going by my memory of what I was told. But then again I can't remember what I had for dinner 2 days ago. ;D

Tom Milton said it was not the teeter bolt that gave way.

[Chuck Irby]

Thank you Chuck for your reply. I don't know why I had it in my little pea brain that it must have been the teeter bolt.

Since you said what you did, it dawned on me that there are some rather large bolts in my little rotor head. So yes, it could definitely have been a 5/8" or even 3/4" bolt that sheared, especially if they had not been inspected and replaced for quite some time.

We need to let this be a "wake-up call" to us all. This is something we all need to do on a regular basis, inspection of the complete rotorhead.

[Chuck Irby]

Udi, I think you have hit upon a very likely scenario. Thank you.

[gyropilot]

The RAF hub bar has a large bolt in *tension* on each end for adjustment of the blade pitch. In other words, the hub bar has a fixed center section in addition to a moveable section on each end. These end sections are each held in place by a single large bolt in tension which also serves as the pivot for the pitch change. When the pitch is changed, some sort of locking block above the hub bar holds the desired pitch in place, but they do not assist in holding the outer and center hub bar sections together.

It sounds plausable that this pitch bolt failed... that the head came off. This would cause the blade, the blade strap, and the moveable outer hub bar end section to depart the aircraft.

Regards,

John L.

[Screw]

All of this is so sad. I just got my Feb 2004 issue of Rotorcraft magazine and on page 26 is an add for Bill.

John-

[gyropilot]

Udi,

I think this thread has risen to the level of wild speculation, and as hard as it is, we just need to wait for the NTSB to conduct their investigation and make a report.

The NTSB will attempt to interview Bill, and he's obviously the best witness to tell us what transpired. Hopefully his statement, along with the observed physical evidence, will shed some light on what happened.

There's nothing to do now but wait and hope for Bill's complete recovery.

Regards,

John L.

[Rotornut]

John, Yes lets wait and see what Bill has to say. Either here or in the PRA Magazine. Best to wait, then guess, or discuss something that may not of happened. MJ

[jamiebodie]

MJ said
Heron, We posted what we know. No sense in us saying anything we are not sure about. MJ

Some of the speculation and just plain old **** stirring in this thread is very dissapointing. I am glad to see that MJ and a few others are keeping their heads. Has anyone noticed that none of the people who actually have a great deal of experience with accidents are posting in this thread? Do you wonder why?

I certainly hope we learn the cause of this accident, but taking wild ass guesses at what happened is liken to the witch hunts of yesteryear.

Jamie Bodie

[GyroRon]

Discuss it or not. Make a guess or not. Either way I hope this accident and the posts in this thread will remind everyone to go up on that ladder and take a look at all those bolts up there.

[Heron]

Hmmm, J.B. is back finally, now were is Dave?
We all demonstrate care and interest in different ways, especulations are a way of demonstrate different understanding of events.
Questions and doubts, answers and certainty are the main reasons for this Forum.
Nobody asked to be informed with gossip or unfounded info, that is ridiculous!
Just more insight, that's all . . .
Heron (Glad to see you Jamie)

[Screw]

Good Lord,

What has been typed that could have been anywhere near offensive?

Why the flames?

There has been no conclusions. A few speculations as to what happened, but nothing wild or painting Bill in a bad light. H*ll, I hate it for him or anyone else who has been envolved in an accident. It is so horrible that a someone lost their life in this accident, that the cause is of concern.

I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but why is anyone getting upset over what is being typed here?

As an added footnote for those of you waiting to talk to Bill. The accident happen so fast, untill he gets a chance to look at his machine, he probably can't tell anyone what happened for sure. Since the NTSB gets first dibs, he may not be able to do that for a while.

John-

[Aussie_Paul]

here are some pics of a Raf hub bar. There teeter block is just sitting there for show.

Aussie Paul.

[Aussie_Paul]

Another one

[Aussie_Paul]

Again, Aussie Paul.

[Chuck Irby]

Paul, thank you for the pictures of the RAF hub bar.

I sure don't like the design RAF used. I see several places that are quite prone for cracks to develop. I realize that this has nothing to do with the accident that just occurred, but that hub bar, as designed, would be more expensive to manufacture than many better designs and much more prone to cracking under the stresses of ordinary operation.

[GeneWeber]

One of the many reasons that the movie “The Wizard of Oz” is a classic is the “pearls of wisdom” that are sprinkled through it. This is one of my favorites:

Ray Bolger (Scarecrow): I haven't got a brain... only straw.
Judy Garland (Dorothy): How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
Ray Bolger (Scarecrow): I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?
Judy Garland (Dorothy): Yes, I guess you're right.

;)

[Chuck Irby]

Gene,

What did I do to rattle your chain?

Why the insinuation that I haven't got a brain?

In trying to determine whether you have one or not, I went to your profile and discovered that you haven't listed your age or where you reside.

Would you kindly update your profile page?

[Heron]

One day sling shot, another day window . . .so life goes!
I just about to run out of peebles, maybe old age makes you more mellow on throwing your last ones.
Maybe we do not get wise after all, just run out of ammo!
WARNING! THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM CREATED FOR GATHERING OF PEOPLE WITH SIMILAR INTERESTS, HERE YOU CAN POST OPINIONS, QUESTIONS, FINDINGS, GOSSIP, MUD PIES, VENT YOUR FRUSTRATIONS, BE APPLAUDED OR BOOED, IT IS VERY ADDICTIVE AND BY GOD . . .FUN! ;D
And you always have your little hole to crawl back too and lick your wounds . . .Carry on guys and gal!
Heron

[GeneWeber]

Hi Chuck,

Unfortunately the format of this forum does not allow posts to be inserted where most appropriate, like Norm’s previous forum. They simply post in chronological order.

BTW: How exactly does my age and where I reside determine my intelligence? :D

Regards,

Gene

[Chuck Irby]

Gene,

Actually, it has no bearing on the amount of intelligence one has. However, this information does give an indication as to how many times one has been around the block, or whether he has just fallen from a turnip truck.

Where would you have preferred that your post, the one I took offence to, had been located?

If I was wrongly offended, I sincerely apologize,

Chuck

[madmax]

I have to agree with Jamie!! It seems there are too many changes in the events of the same story to come up with any real chain of events. To make a wild guess at what might have happened and stir the pot, is not helping to solve anything.

I already see where Ron has posted and mentioned other peoples comments from other forms. I'm sure they had no idea they were to be put here, and they may not care. I do know that Ron asked for ALL comments, good and bad, from everyone on our club e-mail list and some just jumped in instead of waiting for more information. Now to say some of the post were in bad taste and ask them to remove it, I feel is Grand Standing and self centered. One should not slam another when he gave you what you asked for. One might ask. Why do you want bad comments?

I have seen many many wrecks in my 18 years and I have never seen the blades seperate off of any of them. For that to happen tells me there is already a problem. The blades may look like balls of twisted metal, but they have all ways been togeather.

I see now that the blades are now the focus of the forum, the bolt broke. Are the blades bad? You would first need to know why the bolt broke, even still, if that is what happened. Bad Bolt? Maint.? ground strike? over tighten? too lose? rotor flap? Towing it on a trailer with the blades on the Gyro? leaving the blades on the gyro for years and not ever changing the hardware?

One thing IS for sure. With all of the guessing out here, some one may very well get it right and then they can say.

See I told you so!!!!!!!!!!! and be the Hero.

I hope that is not is going on here!!!

[Harry_S.]

Chuck and Gene;

Cool it guys-- We're all friends here. Ya'll are more intelligent than I, so, as a result, I can be the offensive one.

My opinion is, for what it's worth, Todd should require some pertinent info as a requirement to register and enter the forum, such as required to enter the FAA website. I don't think any of us are age sensitive or as to where we live, or as to what our experience (flying) is.

[Aussie_Paul]

Maxi, you said,I have seen many many wrecks in my 18 years and I have never seen the blades seperate off of any of them. For that to happen tells me there is already a problem. The blades may look like balls of twisted metal, but they have all ways been togeather.

I see now that the blades are now the focus of the forum, the bolt broke. Are the blades bad? You would first need to know why the bolt broke, even still, if that is what happened. Bad Bolt? Maint.? ground strike? over tighten? too lose? rotor flap? Towing it on a trailer with the blades on the Gyro? leaving the blades on the gyro for years and not ever changing the hardware?

Great info. I have also seen many wrecks since 1981, and agree with your interpretation of a possible chain of events.

Here Down Under we have had one blade separation in flight due to fatigue if the spar as a result of taxiing long distances over rough ground without the rotors turning. The fatigue was under the straps and not detectable during a pre flight.

Aussie Paul.

[Screw]

Good Point Maxie.


John-

[Heron]

If Maxie would not have been here we would not have this info, that is what most of us are talking about, keeping the light on and waiting for some serious and up dated news especialy about the victims and the rest is just friendly giro talk.
Giro TAlk understand?
Thanks Maxie
and all
Heron

[GyroRon]

Maxie you said " I already see where Ron has posted and mentioned other peoples comments from other forms. I'm sure they had no idea they were to be put here, and they may not care. I do know that Ron asked for ALL comments, good and bad, from everyone on our club e-mail list and some just jumped in instead of waiting for more information. Now to say some of the post were in bad taste and ask them to remove it, I feel is Grand Standing and self centered. One should not slam another when he gave you what you asked for. One might ask. Why do you want bad comments?"

I am not sure I understand all of what you said. I posted two posts here that came from the " other fourms." I got permission from one of the guys to put it here, the one with the Email from Bill's Wife, and did not get permission to put the other bit of info here, although That person I am sure does not care as long as I don't mention his name. I posted those here cause I thought it has possible bearing on what happened to Bills machine. It only a guess as you are right there isn't enough facts yet. I am not making any personal guess' of my own yet.

What do you mean by Now to say some of the post were in bad taste and ask them to remove it, I feel is Grand Standing and self centered. ????

[madmax]

Ron

you had asked for good and bad comments on our e-mail list. Read your post #38 here. You say his post was in bad tast and you asked him to remove it. Now I must say , you did not give his name. But, how many Master Mech. do we know? Or am I reading it wrong? If so let me say, I'm sorry, now!!

[Heron]

That thread was clear enough on content and purposes, I just hope this accident did not have anything to do with that context, I think Bill will have enough tribulations as it is.
Now why we keep bickering at each other?
I never wanted changes in any of the Forums, they are just fine as they are.
I like most of it and when I do not like i just keep it to myself.
Now about the issues been discussed I do have my opinon when I post.
If someone wants to come here and bash Bill, its okay, if some people want to jump in and defend, its also okay.
It is an open public forum!
Not the church, not a tribunal, not anyones sensorship playground.
The moderator is just what it is, he tries to keep things in perspective and coordinate de discussion so we can get teh best out of them.
All is valid and needed so we can have an identity as a group, I think we are having a great time here as we did at Norm's
Oh, I just remember . . .what happened to Counselor HOlmes?
Nite nite all
Heron

[GyroRon]

Yes MAD maxie, you read it wrong.

[Vance]

Hi, I study accident reports so that I might benifit from the leasons learned. I want to beleive that I won't have to give my life or important body parts to enjoy the things I do. I have not always been correct, but so far the jorney has been worth the cost. I am capable of making some very serious mistakes.

On the other hand I was once fired from a racing project because the leader of the project left a part out and I crashed four times in one day. I told him exactly where the problem was after the first crash. He told everyoun, including the press, that I was fired because I was now afraid of the bike because of a previous more violent crash. I was grateful that everyone he talked to called me to find out if I was afraid and acting badly, so that my future in motorcycling was not damaged. Because the leader had made a mistake that I could have made mechanicly I didn't share that part of the story.

I beleive that without sound information, all reports are worse than useless. Sound information is data from witnesses and opinions from similar life experances. It would not be something like,in my case, "he looked afraid as the crash began" or "there couldn't have been a mechanical problem because the leader is a perfect mechanic."

We all make mistakes and when I have to pay for mine I hope others can learn so that they won't have to pay too. Sometimes I have to pay when I haven"t made a mistake, I was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. I hope that others will not draw wrong conclusions and behave inappropriatly because of the price I paid.

I think that many of the people on this forum are brilliant and I learn a great deal about a subject that I have a lot of ignorance about. I am grateful for that. Thank You, Vance

[Chuck Irby]

Vance,

I hear where you're coming from. However, speculation about what could have happened, as I see it, is good in that it gets us to think about possible scenarios.

This, like Ron said earlier, can cause us to perform inspections, that perhaps we wouldn't ordinarily perform. This, in my opinion, is the good thing about speculating about the causes of this, or any other accident.

I don't think any of us are ready to die yet. We just want to safely enjoy a sport where many have died.

[Heron]

This Forums are the grapevine, and the Official ears should be glued to it, any complaints posted here that are confirmable, should!
And the ones with problems to report should also report them to the PRA's proper department (is there one?) and measures should be taken to solve matters.
Mike Solano (just an example) is a good instructor? Is he a bad instructor? Who is in charge of checking?
The closest chapter has the obligation of having this people under close watch, the accident in Florida will hurt all.
My friends called me to tell it is all over the news and a stupid reporter is blabbing all over it.
Who is going to address that publication and set the records straight? The bad rap for ancient problems gyros had is back in fashion again and we do not have any counter measures.
One ounce of prevention . . . .
thanks
Heron

[Vance]

Hi Chuck, as usual, I agree completly.

The thing that brought up the memory I described, had to do with the statement that the machine was not well maintained without anything specific about what type of maintaince had not been performed. This was after all, as I understand it, a high time trainer.

When I road raced I would not wash the motorcycle often enough for people because I didn't want the water migraiting somewhere it would do some damage. I didn't crash as often as most of my competitors so my paint was not as fresh. I raced 40 plus races per year so my equipment was well used. This could give someone the feeling that my equipment was not well maintained and that a clean bike with new paint was well maintained.

I don't think that you can spend too much time on preflight or too much time on maintaince. We all need reminders to do more work on the machine. Thank You, Vance

[Chuck Irby]

Thank you Vance!!

[PW_Plack]

Guys,

Bill is in the hospital with a mangled hand, has had a student killed in his machine, and probably isn't thinking about getting on the forum right now. Let's not welcome him home with a backlog of posts that trash his reputation with no solid facts. Brainstorming over accidents is great, but public discussions of negligence on his part are, at least, premature.

I'm aware of one disgruntled student's complaints about Bill's maintenance his Mazda engine, but it was such an emotional rant that it was hard to take seriously. I took it as a master mechanic's outrage over having his offer to work on the engine spurned. Otherwise, I've heard mostly good things about Bill, and in my correspondence with him last year while evaluating instructors, he came across as knowledgeable and conservative. Let's not convict and hang him here before we know what happened.

[Chuck Irby]

Well stated Paul. You made a good, and valid point.

I am sure that none of us meant any harm to Bill.

[automan1223]

Hello everyone,

I am the certified master mechanic Ron A. Speaks of.......

I am the one who voiced my concerns about Bills machine. I wrote of my concerns 3 years ago. My web page has not changed since.

http://www.jonathansautomotive.com/gyrotraining1.htm

What I said about Ortmayer at the time was very very serious.

If I was making anything up or outright lieing then I would be guilty of libel, or guilty of slander. I could be sued for such things. Bill never as far as I know, In public refuted or argued against what I said.

When did Bill EVER post on the conference ? And yes he had a computer.

The PRA safety officer knew of my concerns. Bill knew of my concerns. I let him know of my web page. I AM guilty of not putting everything that I saw about the machine up. The list would be quite long.

I thought I included a lot of technical information so as to not sound like a disgruntled student or an emotional jackass.

As a decent human being I felt morally obligated to let anyone
know about something that may get them killed. anyone thinks I am a bad guy or out to prove something then you do not know me and you are missing my entire point. Do not shoot the messenger.

If you want my entire list of observed problems then email me or if you want I will put it up here. For now I might agree that it is in bad taste or may be offensive. But facts are facts and I will not lie about something so serious.

I agree 100% about not speculating lets wait for some 1st hand reports.


Sincerely
Jonathan Weis
Oriental NC

[Chuck Irby]

Jonathan,

I appreciate your post, and I appreciate what you did and tried to get done three years ago.

If what you are saying is true, and I am definitely not doubting you, I can't help but wonder why nothing was apparently done by Bill or the PRA Safety Officer.

It appears to me that you did what most of us, under the same circumstances, would have done.

[madmax]

You would be very very suprised at what little imput and no athourity the PRA has over the CFI's. The CFI's are lic. thru the FAA not the PRA. The PRA holds an exemption but no way to govern it or restrict who can us it. A report to the PRA safty officer will get your name on a data sheet some where, but he has no control what so ever over any CFI, nor does the PRA. The only controll come from the FAA when they become involved with that CFI. As a PRA Board member I have fought to have some type of PRA requirments put in the CFI's training and Gyro. I have been shot down at every attempt. We just don't have any control over the CFI or the Gyro they Fly. Sorry!!!!

[Chuck Irby]

Maxie, Thank you for that information.

[GyroRon]

Just a note or correction. I made a fool of myself over my posts in this thread.

I had asked for people in our Chapter 13 group email for info on this crash good or bad. I am guessing that at that time I was intending to take the info gathered there and bring it here for everyone here to ponder over. I had totally forgot I even made that post on our email.

One of our members on the email group got a Email from Bills wife and I thought it really answered some of the questions we had here. I know I should have gotten permission to post it here from the member on our list, FIRST, then post it here if he said it was okay. I jumped the gun and assumed since he posted it freely on our group he wouldn't mind if it was posted here too. This person does not come onto this forum or else I believe he would have posted it here too. Anyway I posted it here and emailed him privately right after I posted it and asked him was it okay to post here. He emailed me right back and said sure it was, he just didn't want his name mentioned. I really should have gotten permission first then posted.

Then later Jonathan Weis posted here his view points on Bill. At the time I felt it would be taken as offensive to some of you guys. His post above is toned down a little from his first post and the crash isn't as fresh on peoples minds etc...

At anyrate, I emailed Jonathan and took him I thought he should pull his post. I myself have made a few enemies in the gyroworld by speaking my mind freely and sometimes going against the grain. I believed Jonathans post would have gave him some negative attention that he doesn't deserve so I thought I was doing him a favor by asking him to consider pulling his post. I never told him he had to bt told him he should IMHO. So he pulled it.

Later in this thread with the speculation on the blades failing for some unknown reason, one of Jonathans emails in our group email indicated that he found heavy rust on the hardware on the blades on Bills machine among all the other problems Jonathan said he saw. Again, I saw the discussion here on this forum could be added to with the info on the rusty blade bolts that Jonathan saw. So I posted here about it and left out Jonathans name, but added that the person was a Master Mechanic and I guess that everyone knew who I was talking about anyway since Jonathan is the only one on these forums that adds to his posts that he is a master mechanic.

So then a few days go by and Maxie makes a post here, and to me it looked like he was upset with how I took info from our group email and put it here. Even upset that I asked Jonathan to remove a post then for me to put one right back on there with the same basic info. I questioned him on it and posted that he wrong about my intentions and misunderstood me. I also said I never asked our group for feedback on Bills crash god or bad.

this whole thing - although I feel is kinda childish - has made me quite upset, And probably some of the folks in our email group as well. But now I can see where Maxie is coming from. I DID ask for all info from our group good or bad, even though I had forgotten. And I can see where it may look like l was taking other peoples info and posts and using them in my name which I believe is what Maxie was refering to as Grandstanding and self centered. I have been questioning Maxie here on this forum and in our group forum and in private email trying to figure out what I did to piss him off. NOW I finnally see where he is coming from and understand he is right to see it the way he does. So he is right and I was wrong to question him.

Now I do want to somewhat redeem myself before I go. I never had bad intentions in any of this. I was not Grandstanding or trying to be self centered even though it may easily look that way. I was trying to protect a friend - Jonathan - from making enemies that I already have made myself, and trying to bring info here to the forum that was helpful to the discussion, and probably wouldn't have found it's way here since that person I took that info from doesn't post here. Believe me, I would have really prefered not to have made one single post in this whole thread, and at this point I wish I never did.

So last but not least, I want to make it public.... Maxie I am sorry. And Jonathan I am Sorry and to Mr. don't mention my name... I am sorry.

And to all of the rest of you, take this however you want. I am not at nearly 1000 posts to impress anyone, or to be viewed as a authority on Gyros. I don't post here for any other reason than to just stay in touch with my So called friends. I like to talk alot with my mouth or my fingers and that is why I have so many posts. I was never trying to be Self centered or grandstanding by what I did above, even though it sure looks that way. I am considering dropping out of the Pra, Chapter 13 and the whole forums and gyro movement all together. I am tired of all the bickering and muss and fuss. I like to fly period. Gyros, ultralights, airplanes whatever. I just like to fly, I get myself all caught up in the forums and the clubs and so on and I just end up pissing people off and it makes me want to just quit altogether. But I love flying too much to quit. Anyway I am just as upset with myself as anyone is with me.

[Chuck Irby]

Ron, I personally feel that you are being too hard on yourself. None of us are without fault. We have all said and done things at some point that we wish we had never said or done. Maybe some have a problem with something you did or said. But I don't see that anyone has ill feelings toward you personally. If they do, then they are at fault.

[ToddP]

Although I wasn't one of the "quoted" people, I still believe Ron had the best intentions. It appeared to me he was doing nothing more than gathering as much information as he could and making it widely available. I certainly didn't see it as grandstanding.

Several people have stated that any speculation into the cause of this accident is bad. I disagree. If we're waiting for an NTSB report to give us the details on what "really" happened, I think most will be sorely disappointed. The experts on gyrocopters are on this forum, they don't work for the NTSB. Taking the little information that is available and looking at possible scenarios & solutions is going to do considerably more for our group than a 1 paragraph uninformed conclusion from the NTSB.

Because of this accident, and some of the speculation, I double and triple checked all the bolts in my rotorhead before flying this weekend. Is that bad?

[Screw]

Ron!?!?!?!

On of the greatest things about this forum is our ability to communicate in such a way as to ask questions, voice opinions, concerns, humor. We all know the reactions of an open and public forum, and when one person stands out and makes statements other won't, most will take things for what they are, and some will inerpret more than there is. Come on!

Truth: Can be defined as each persons own perspective. Since we are all differant, so are truths. Hince the phrase, "you can't please everyone."

One of the characteristics traits about you that I like, is the fact you post "Your Side," "Your Concerns," "Your Opions" on any given subject without fear of "What other people think." And you like to fly alot, and help others fly.

The only catch is: You, "Sir Ron of Carolinas" must be willing to accept that someone will get bent over something you've said or typed, and will, in-turn, voice there opinions. Don't let it bother you...I don't. Niether does Jamie. H*ll I think some of Jamies post are funny as h*ll. He just speaks his mind and is very passionate about flying and safety. Do you blame him?

If pissing folks off were a sin, we'd all be in H*ll. The good news is: Popcorn is free, and I agree with Chuck and Todd.

John-

[Udi]

For whatever it's worth, Ron, I never thought you did anything wrong. I've read Jonathan's first post before he removed it, and I think you gave him a good friendly advice. I guess some people don't like any kind of discussion and speculation on a public forum after a tragedy happens, although they would gladly do the same in a more private setting. Different people think differently. Take a deep breath and say xxxx them. Don't go anywhere - we want you here.

Udi-

[Rotornut]

After 8 people that I have gotten to know and love, died in gyro accidents, I have watched as others try to figure out what happened. My feelings on a accident is lets wait and see what really did happen. Jumping to sernios of the accident does not give you more insight if they are wrong.

I want to say OUT LOUD, if My Better Half ever is involved in a Accident PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING SERNIOS.

In my eyes People like Chuck, Ernie, Gary, Greg. G.and Dave Prater, Steve McG, would be the ones I think should see the wreckage and tell me their assumptions. FAA cannot even begin to understand what could of happened. But this is not.

Loved ones want Answers not assumptions, or sernios. To guess and say without knowing leads to, too many other problems.

As for the Safety Guy for PRA PLEASE!

Back in the old PRA Magazine they had the Accident Corner, which to me was better than Safety Guy.

But then again this is only my Opinion. MJ :(

Ron, Do not blame yourself as I have Stuck my Foot in my Big Mouth more than once.

[PW_Plack]

I've gone back and re-read Jonathan's posts and website, and would like to apologize for using the phrase "emotional rant."

We need to compare thoughts and notes, and a thorough discussion eventually helps the sport, but we have to be careful. If the investigation finds this was a case of negligence, Bill will face some serious consequences. If it's not, I hope he can recover from the gossip storm.

One of the big reasons certified gyroplane flight instruction is so expensive and hard to find is the liability issue. What effect do you suppose it will have on chances for getting more CFIs to add the gyro rating if they read this thread?

Even if the charges eventually prove false, consider what effect a speculative post here will have on the sport if your comment is forwarded to an insurance underwriter.

Or a widow's attorney.

[bogman]

Ron go back and read John Stevens post. He nailed it :)

[jucie]

Ron Awad: I am considering dropping out of the Pra, Chapter 13 and the whole forums and gyro movement all together.

Oh, Ron, don't do it!

I participate at several discussion groups around the Internet world and some times I got pissed of with myself and other guys. Right after I wanted to quit, but I am happy I didn't. As time goes by everything is back to normal and everyone becomes happy again. That's life, Ron, don't worry.

We like you here, just the way you are. Don't go away. (uh, that's sounds like music!!) :)

[GyroRon]

I ain't going anywhere. I really got upset and should have kept it in to myself instead of adding to the drama. Thanks guys.

[Screw]

Not trying to stir the pot or anything but,

MJ wrote:

"In my eyes People like Chuck, Ernie, Gary, Greg. G.and Dave Prater, Steve McG, would be the ones I think should see the wreckage and tell me their assumptions. FAA cannot even begin to understand what could of happened. But this is not."

I don't agree with this statement....

Although I do not know Chuck, Ernie, Gary, Greg G. and Dave Prater. I do know Steve McGowan. I suspect some of the others are engineers, designers, and people of great gyro knowledge, and Steve is a damn good pilot, CFI, and has damn good knowledge of gyros.

It takes training and skill to be able to determine what parts of wreckage are a result of impact versas failure. This is the area the NTSB has experiance at.

To make a long post short, I just don't think that if you've been doing gyros for a long time means it's ok for you to post an opinion on an accident, but know one else.

I don't think Steve or anyone else can just walk up to wreckage and say for sure what happened. Especially if they weren't there to witness it.

I don't mean no harm, but it just seems like some of the posts are comming across like, "Unless your a great gyro gureu, you shouldn't speak." Discussions about accidents help me and I'm sure others understand how thery can occur, and what "Possibly" to look out for.

I'm new to gryos and there are alot of things that go on that I don't fully understand. There are alot of maintenece issues that I don't know to check? I try to do a "Ramp Annual" before I fly, but there are things that I forget, or just know know to look at.

The bottom line is: people have assumptions and opinions, and it's ok to post them no matter who you are. Bill crashed! Bill is a CFI. First question that comes to mind is why? What happened? Is there more info? Based on said info, how accurate is it and what can we learn from it?

If I crashed tomarrow, I'm new. First question that comes to mind is, "Did he have a horizontal?" then, "What stupid stunt did he try?" For all anyone knows, I could have been trailering my gyro, blades attached, and had an in-flight blades failure causing a PPO. Or a bird strike.

If peoples wrong assumptions about my accident convences one person to mount a horizontal stab, remove the blades before trailering, then I'd say the discussion helped another pilot or two.

John-

[Doug Riley]

John, if you're new to gyros, you might not recall some of the accident investigations that such guys have done in the past.

Several years ago, a competent and well-liked instructor, LeRoy Hardee, went down to his death with a passenger at Bensen Days. Chuck B. and some of the others from PRA got hold of the wreckage and took it apart. They were able to pinpoint the (very obscure) cause -- a design defect in the first-generation Snobird's control system. Their report, with photos, was published in Rotorcraft. Very informative, and far more effort than the NTSB would go to.

A similar investigation by more or less the same folks pinpointed the cause of Bill Parsons' death, also with a student aboard.

The point is not that our own "wise men"are smarter than NTSB. NTSB simply does not do in-depth investigations of crashes of homebuilts. I imagine that, in their view, it's not a wise use of resources.

Too many gyro accidents are written off as "pilot error." Given the number of crashes shrugged off with "he must have had a heart attack," we must all have clogged coronary arteries. These glib answers aren't answers. They don't contribute anything to safety, and they further the ridiculous reputation of gyros as craft that just randomly flip out of control if the pilot blinks.

I hope the good ol' boys have a serious look at this latest accident. The tidbits so far don't make sense.

[Chuck Irby]

Well stated Doug.

[Screw]

That was a very informative post Doug, and No I didn't know these things.

Like I said, I'm not trying to "stir the pot," "Hurt Feelings," or anything of that sort.

If anything, I'm trying to encourage free speach on this forum without flames.

John-

[Hognose]

The experts on gyrocopters are on this forum, they don't work for the NTSB.


That is a very, very important point, folks. The NTSB is only a few (desperately underpaid for their expertise!) folks. GA accidents they usually wind up deferring to the regional FAA for factual investigation. When it is time for them to investigate a "member of a minority group," such as a gyroplane, the IIC will be completely at sea, and will need help.

On the big accidents this is done through the "party" system. The airframe maker, avionics maker, maintenance guys, aircrew unions and the operator all are "parties" to the investigation and they help NTSB out.

On a small accident like this, I would be very surprized if FAA or NTSB does a lot of looking at Bill's machine without getting Bill's help. After all, the designer is not available. They will probably try to get some engineering data from Rotary Air Force Marketing, too (rotsa ruck) if, as reported here, Bill's blades were actually RAF blades.

The reports are, as usual, what we called in the Army F-6 intel, meaing unknown source, unknown veracity. For instance there's a reference to failure of a large bolt that's loaded in shear, but unless there are invisible load paths, or his head was not like the bar photos that Aussie Paul Bruty posted, that big bolt is loaded in tension, and the little bolts that may be loaded in shear are not bearing major flight or centrifugal loads. Yes? But all of this is somewhat idle until the Bureau's reps have gathered their facts.Let's have real facts before we analyse, eh.

One thing in which all the reports do agree is that the problem was a mechanical failure. Where the NTSB's resources can really help is in analysing the part(s) that failed. They can probably determine a pretty solid failure sequence, and they have access to ace structural engineers and metallurgists, etc. An unpleasant fact about our sport is that, compared to fixed-wing flight, we have a lot less engineering and a lot more guesswork in the gyro world. I have been studying accidents for many years and I believe that an accident is always bad, a fatal and disabling accident such as this is always tragic, but that tragedy is compounded if we don't learn from it and prevent any recurrence.

The best possible outcome, then, is for those people who are asked to help or who have material information to volunteer, to give the NTSB max assistance. For the rest of us to STFU, or at least to be crystal clear when we are posting fact, observation, hearsay, or speculation. I don't see anybody being irresponsible here, but some people worry that we might disrespect or prejudge people involved in a mishap.

Finally, we're a pretty diverse group but it can't hurt for those of us who are religious believers to say one for Bill's recovery. He has a lot of pain and a great deal of therapy ahead. Before he's able to fly again himself, the time will come when people based near him may be able to take him flying again -- I bet he'd like that.

cheers

-=K-=

[Hognose]

... informative, and far more effort than the NTSB would go to.
....NTSB simply does not do in-depth investigations of crashes of homebuilts. I imagine that, in their view, it's not a wise use of resources.


Doug and all,

as I just posted, the NTSB has great technical expertise nut they are pretty much ignorant of gyroplanes. It's less a matter of resource allocation than it is that the gyro world is small and insular and the people who have the expertise are in it, not in Washington or in the FSDOs.

NTSB has done some extremely thorough investigations of homebuilt mishaps, but they are weak (and will admit it) on homebuilt rotorcraft and especially gyroplanes. There are more fatals in Cessna 172s in any give year than in gyros of all types, certified and experimental. And the 172 is statistically the safest machine in GA.

We will not have the answers brought to us on a plate by a diligent government worker -- although we might well get them from a cooperative venture between the Board and the gyro community.

As a community, there are a lot of safety things we could do a better job on -- one of which is getting information on mishaps to pilots and builders. Having seen how the services do this opens one's eyes to the possibility. We have to adjust to the fact that we are few in numbers and poor in cash, and there are lots and lots of divisions that make sharing information hard. But these problems are not insoluable.

cheers

-=K=-