View Full Version : Flying Mistakes You've Lived To Tell
03-13-2004, 10:21 AM
As most of you know, I soloed on March 10th. On March 12th, yesterday I went flying.....
I pulled "DaScrew-Driver" out of the hanger, topped her off and completed a ramp annual ;D
It was a little windy but right up runway 28. I put on my helmet, eye protection and jacket...Ensuring that the excess cord was in my jacket and zipped up. I chauked the wheel on the right side of the machine and placed my radio and mic switch on the ground close to my seat on the right side.(This is the side I mount the machine.)
I freed the blades and threw the strap out of the way and and began my start-up procedure. Now on the left side of my machine I undo the seat belt and hang each side off the seat. I pump the throttle three times ensuring the power switch is "OFF." Left hand on the mast and strattling the axle, I flip the prop 8 times. Look around and "Clear Prop." On the 9th flip "DaScrew-Driver" comes to life idling low and smooth.
Keeping a hand on "DaScrew-Driver" I work my way around to the right side. I remove the wheel chauk, slowly moved the cyclic forward and sat down gently untill the nosewhell was on the ground. I bent over and picked up my radio equiptment and began strapping the radio on my leg, connectiong the wires and placing the excess in my jacket and zipped up.
After a qick "Radio Check" with a near by aircraft in the pattern I announced my intensions and began taxing out to runway 28.
Once on the "Hold Short," I looked around, announced my intensions and began spooling up the blades as I taxi in to position on the runway.
Once the prerotator and the engine sounded in unison, I slowly started moving the cyclic to the rear and began my takeoff run. Because of the wind, I reach balance early and remained on the runway balancing for a while and slowing feed the throttle to the point I was off the ground. Once off the ground I remained in ground effect for a while building my airspeed. I finally gave it all she had, and I think I was 200ft before the end of the runway.
Watching the horizon, I slowly made a right bank and was travling cross wind. After relaxing on the cyclic a bit I was level and gaining altitude. I cut back on the throttle a little and turned right to the downwind and dropped like a rock. All of my altitude was gone. I relaxed on the cyclic and feed in more throttle before she leveled out. Watching the horizon again I slowly turned right again into the x wind and began losing altitude again. This time I'm dangerously low to the ground so I level the rotors and try turning more with rudder (Rudder turn). The whole time I'm relaxing on the cyclic and barely maintaining altitude. Once I made it in to the wind I began climbing like a bat out of h*ll! I look at my instruments and my cyclinder head temp is at redline! 450 degrees. Airspped indicated is about 35mph. I'm already @ 200 ft AGL and at the end of the runway. I go around again. This time trying not to go past a 10-20 degree rotor tilt. I'm still climbing on the x-wind. I turn downwind totally relaxed on the cyclic and no rudder. I still drop out but not as hard. About midfield downwind I start gaining some altitude. This time I point I the end of the runway. Once at the end of the runwayI make a shallow rotor turn and a little rudder and allow "DaScrew-Driver to weather-vain a near 180 degrees to line up on the runway. Once lined up I reduce throttle and she begind descending.
I touched down at about half throttle maybe 5 mph perfect tail/main touch. Allow the rotors to unwind and began breaking procedures. Once the rotors were arrested I began to taxi back to the hanger. By the time I made it back, the wind had increase a good bit but still right up runway 28.
I pulled up to the hanger and turned the switch off. I reached for the seatbelt only....I wasn't wearing it. I forgot to put on my seatbelt! I slowly dismounted and secured the blades. According to the weather the winds jumped from 5 knts to 10-12knts!
My tail was cover with oil and my temps were way high. After replaying the flight in my mind...I came to the conclusion I was flying behind the power the whole time. I guess I need to relax my trim spring a little.
Fortunately, my seat belt wasn't long enough to go in to the prop, but I was getting kick around pretty good up there. I could have died from my novice and preoccupation with the radio!
"DaScrew-Driver" will fly another day.
03-13-2004, 12:55 PM
I think your seat belt problem is nothing compared to your airspeed problem. You will maintain altitude if you maintain airspeed.
You mention "Airspeed indicated is about 35mph". The airspeed idicater should be the primary instrument to safely fly a gyro. You can not get behind the power curve if you maintain the proper airspeed.
Flying a gyro (or any other aircraft) should be done by maintaining the proper airspeed - on take off, climb, cruise, and landing. Watch you airspeed while you fly. And adjust your trim to maintain cruise speed without any push or pull pressure on the stick.
03-13-2004, 01:31 PM
Firstly congratulations on going solo.
I would say the biggest % of us (count me in) have done the same in regards to airspeed.
Using the ground as a reference would be the main cause, it was for me because I had never flown anything before.
The airspeed indicator is God mate.
BTW in one of my early "hops" sessions I forgot to put my seatbelt on.
03-13-2004, 07:28 PM
First mistake you made was to get ready to fly without taking your blade string with you.
Think about it for a minute.... You go up to fly in the gyro, Maybe your not even going to leave the pattern, But for one reason or another you got to put your gyro down a good ways away from the hangar. Maybe in a farmers field, maybe on the other side of the airport. Whereever you leave it the blades must be tied down or unless there is not a trace of wind, they WILL start spinning on their own. If left alone they can get fast enough to cause the gyro to move and tip over or worse.
I always take my rotor string - or strap or whatever you want to call it - and put it in my pants pocket while flying. I have had to use it before too! Don't fly without it!!!
03-13-2004, 07:36 PM
Second mistake was the seat belt. that is okay we all get excited and forget stuff. It might be wise to make a little checklist to use, maybe even make it onto a label or sticker that you can put on the instrument panel to remind you of what to do before flying. But it is a fairly easy thing to forget.... Even the Almighty Steve M has forgotten his before, I was there and saw it.
Third is you got the gyro too slow. I personally don;t like to fly a gyro slower than 45-50 mph unless I am playing around with it. I set the trim springs to give me at least 60 mph hands off. 35 mph is really on the slow side. I think you also got trapped into letting the ground speed be your airspeed indicator. We don't have to start up the whole Wind direction discussions we had a few months ago do we? Please say no it was painful to even think about it again! ;) Just trim the gyro for a airspeed hands off of at least 55 mph and I bet you will do a lot better.
Last, no matter what anyone would say, I think a lot of you willing to write this post admitting you screwed up. More power to ya Johnny Fairplay. ;D
03-13-2004, 07:46 PM
I just discovered your post John. I'm happy that everything turned out alright. Did you become religious all of a sudden?
03-13-2004, 09:26 PM
I was newly soloed, I guess I had about 2 hours if that and we had a windy weekend.
The wind was marginal. Fine for the experienced guys but I was newly soloed.
I double-flight checked my machine. Taxied out to the runway and was sitting in the taxi-way scratching my head about weather to fly in the wind or not then my instructor Gary comes driving up in his pickup.
I thought he was going to tell me it was too windy for a student and to get my butt back to the hanger. But when he pulled up he did not say anything he just looked at me.
He was patting the top of his head with his hand.
What on earth? Is he telling me I am crazy for flying in the wind?
Then he mouthed the word " H E L M E T "
"S#*T" I realized with all me ultra pre-flighting I did not pre-flight myself.
I taxied back to the hanger got my helmet and had a great time flying.
Since then I now have a radio and it makes it harder to forget since I do a radio check per habbit and course each time I take off.
Twice I have taken off whilest forgetting my sholder strapps. ( only the belt was on )
Several times I have taken off forgeting my altimeter. I use a sky divers altimeter since my gyro does not have one. It is the kind you strap to the back of your hand.
This weekend my GPS almost vibrated out of it grip. It must have gotten bumped after preflight and not caught in a walk around.
Watch out for Murphy!
03-14-2004, 07:50 AM
I use a tightly fitting pitot tube cover on my gyro when not flying (keeps the pesky insects out).
Early on in my gyro flying career I was so nervous and preoccupied with everything that at least one time... maybe twice... I left the pitot tube cover on and didn't realize it until I glanced down to check my airspeed on climbout from the runway.
Thankfully my gyro instructor, Scott Malone, had drilled it into my head very early to learn how to fly the gyro by "feel" (feeling the wind pressure) just in case the airspeed indicator were to fail someday. The ride around the pattern without the airspeed indicator was a non-event but taught me to be more thorough on my preflights.
I remember Scott used to occasionally cover up the airspeed indicator when he felt I was getting too preoccupied with it (because of my instrument flying background). It was good training.
03-14-2004, 08:03 AM
John, my instructor did the same thing. That's just good training.
Another suggestion: At your stage in training, it would be best not to fly unless the winds are calm. I know this is tough to do, but it would have eliminated another issue you had to deal with, i.e., upwind/downwind operation. I'm still new enough to remember driving 45 minutes to the airport, and sitting there dying, waiting for the wind to die down enough to be safe for me. Many evenings, I either did not fly, or got two patterns in.
My first 10 hours of solo flying were done in no wind conditions, and never leaving the pattern. It's a lot easier to learn how to operate your machine, and in your case, dial it in, when not having to deal with wind.
If you add other conflicts in with simply learning to fly your machine with good repeatable takeoffs and landings, you actually take longer to get good at it, and may develop some real bad habits which can hurt/kill you.
The important thing is you learned several good lessons from your experience. What you do with that learning determines your future flying fun.
By the way, congrats on soloing, and successfully navigating your first non-supervised solo flight!
03-14-2004, 08:20 AM
Do you guys have a checklist? If not, make one up a short one and laminate it. I made one for my RAF. I must confess that sometimes I don't use it. But when I do use it, I never forget the things that need done before each flight.
03-14-2004, 08:46 AM
Hey Tim, you said:
Taxied out to the runway and was sitting in the taxi-way scratching my head about weather to fly in the wind or not.
My instructor always told me if you have to think about whether to take off on not, don't. If it don't feel right don't do it.
Words I live by....
Mark, When I first started flying gyros I can't count the times that I have driven to the airport and watched the wind sock stand straight out. Only to hang out a couple of hours and drive home.
03-14-2004, 02:27 PM
Hey Guy's as a new gyro pilot I thank all of you for reading and replying, but please talk more about slow flight, I thought that was one of the things gyros do well?
03-14-2004, 03:10 PM
Dave, I think it depends a lot on the machine and the weight of the pilot, etc. In my machine, I consider slow flight about 40. I can fly much slower, but am weigh behind the PC burning a lot of fuel.
Get other opinions.
03-14-2004, 03:10 PM
Gyros fly best at around 55 mph, which is very slow compared to most aircraft. If you want to fly slower and maintain altutude it takes more power. To go real slow (15 to 20 mph) and stay at altitude it takes full power and a good sized engine.
People watching the gyro fly from the ground think that it is flying very slow, standing still or even flying backwards, but this is done by flying into the wind. The more the wind the slower you can fly - in reference to the ground. But compared to the moving air the gyro is still moving forward fast enough to maintain altitude.
For safety, the airspeed should always be above 40 or so (55 is better) depending the power available.
03-14-2004, 03:16 PM
A good answer Ken, a lot better than mine.
03-14-2004, 03:17 PM
How would I know when I'm flying behind the power curve and what does it mean to unload the rotars and how to avoid it. I fly a single place Aircommand with a 582.Dave
03-14-2004, 03:52 PM
You are behind the power curve when you are flying too slow to maintain altitude with the engine power you have. The gyro sinks down to the ground - sometimes pretty hard.
The only way to avoid it is to give it full throttle and lower the nose (even though you are sinking and don't really want to go down) to gain speed. If you are able to gain enough speed before you hit the ground the gyro will start gaining altitude.
The only way to "unload your rotors" in normal gyro flight is to zoom up fast and at the top push the stick forward to start back down. This will unload the rotors if the air gets on top of your rotor blades. The result with most gyros (with high thrust line design) is a "power push over" (PPO) and you tumble forward upside down and fall to the earth. Another way to unload the rotor is to land. As soon as your tires touch the ground the load comes off the rotors and they slow down.
If you have a properly designed gyro - close to center line thrust and a large horizontal stabilizer - then unloading your rotors a little, such as flying through a strong down draft, is no problem. To slow the blades a lot takes more time than a quick down draftand the gyro reaction allows.
03-14-2004, 05:17 PM
How would I know when I'm flying behind the power curve and what does it mean to unload the rotars and how to avoid it. I fly a single place Aircommand with a 582.Dave
Start by setting up for normal cruise at a safe altitude (1000 ft). Then start gradually reducing power while easing the stick back to maintain altitude.
You will reach a point where you will be able to maintain altitude with the fewest RPM's. That is your Minumum Power Required Speed (MPRS). This should also be your best glide speed, and best climb speed. (At least I find it works for me).
Continue slowing down by easing the stick back (try not to climb), and you'll have to add power to maintain altitude. You're now on the backside of the power curve, below MPRS.
Keep slowing down and you'll reach a point where you won't have enough power at full-throttle to maintain altitude, and you'll start to sink. The only way to get back to the 'front-side' of the power curve will be to lower the nose and let your airspeed build up to best-climb-speed, and fly out of it.
To fly any slower than MPRS will require you to add power, and to fly any faster then MPRS will require you to add power.
Speeds and power settings will vary according to the weight of the machine, power available, airframe drag, blade efficiency, etc. It wouldn't hurt to experiment with this, and maybe plot out the results on graph paper, and keep it as a reference.
03-14-2004, 05:38 PM
Thanks all for the good advice.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this discussion, but I've been flying some more today.
It didn't get much better at first. Takeoff was ok at less than full throttle and as long as I stayed in ground effect for a while to build airspeed and as long as I was into the wind I could climb. After that, it was a constant fight for altitude and way hot cylinder head temps (400-450).
Steve, of course, could fly the dog sh*t out of it and make it look easy. He said his temps were running around 350-375.
This tells me I am constantly running behind the power curve. The trim is set to a shallow dive when completely relaxed, and I'm still behind.
We wieghed the "DaScrew-Driver" today and she came in at 345lbs with full tank (8.3gal). Dry weight should be around 295lbs. Full tank plus my 218lbs is 563lbs. Gross on the KB-2 is 600lbs. So we are ok as far as gross. My current 22 foot rotor is equal to 380 sq ft. 563/380=1.48 lbs per sq ft.
Just for giggles, Stuart had a 4ft rotor bar. this increase my rotors to 24 ft. This increased my disc area to 452 sq ft. 563/452=1.25 lbs per square ft.
Went for a test fly and Toyota doesn't begin to describe the feeling. Altitude is right, power is great, temps are still high, but my confidence is through the roof.
I bought Stuarts 4 ft Hub Bar.
03-14-2004, 06:15 PM
Extended flying behind the curve could cost you a couple of cylinder heads on the VW. That engine was originally designed to make about 40 HP peak, and about 10 HP at cruise, and in the Beetle it had a shrouded fan aiding cooling. Any pusher gyro with an air-cooled engine starts out at a disadvantage for engine cooling. Airspeed is your friend!
03-14-2004, 08:52 PM
I had LOTS of windy training at that point and the wind was not bad at all or my instructor would not have let me go out. I was simply having new pilot paranoids. 10 min later I was wondering what all my fuss was about... The lesson to learn was the danger of distraction.
I use and update my check list often. As I have learned my gyro better I have learned 'read the signs' better and include this on my check list. I keep it small abot the size of a baseball card.
03-15-2004, 04:04 AM
You have all made the power curve clear to me know, But you speak of the trim and how it is a factor. I know where my trim spring is but I do not know what to do with it, Or if I need to do anything with it, How can you tell. A side note I have read in many places about power curve and the explanations are so technical I could not follow them , All of you have put it in simple terms so that those of us new to gyro flying can not only understand but we can put things into action and do it safely. I come from a long time fixed wing background and have had the tendency to do the wrong thing with the help from you and the gyro instuctors I took lessons from this is much more fun than my airplane, Again my thanks. Dave
03-15-2004, 06:11 AM
A slight clarification: "behind the power curve"or "on the backside of the power curve" refers to flight at airspeeds below the best rate of climb. You're on the backside even if you aren't yet so slow that you can't hold altitude at wide-open throttle.
The point is that, at these slow "mush" speeds, you can't climb well (or perhaps at all) without diving first. If you're headed for a hill at 25 mph, you better have enough altitude to dive and thereby get your speed up. If you stay at 25, full throttle won't give you a climb and you'll run into the hill.
Flying on the backside is dangerous at low altitudes because you don't have room below you to dive. If you do your final approach at "backside" speeds, you won't have enough airspeed to flare and you'll drop in hard. For the same reason, takeoff at below best rate of climb is risky, because you'll drop in hard WHEN your engine quits. And it will, one of these times.
A high power-to-weight gyro like a 582 Air Command will tempt you to do low-speed takeoffs -- because all that power will let you claw your way to altitude at well below your BEST rate of climb. When she quits, however, you'll mush in hard if you're below a couple hundred feet.
Beginners should maintain airspeed at or above best rate-of-climb throughout their early flights. Your instructor should demonstrate "backside" flight at altitude, and then let you try it up there where it's safe. You need to develop a sure feel for how much altitude you need to get your airspeed back before doing intentional low-speed flight.
03-15-2004, 06:34 AM
I learned a very important lesson years ago that all newbies should keep in mind at all times. It's short and simple, but well worth remembering:
You can't use the air above you!
03-15-2004, 07:16 AM
Doug, what is the best technique to use to determine the 'best rate of climb' speed for the new pilot or for that matter a new gyro?
I'm assuming all gyros may be within a certain range but each individual one will have a best speed of its own. Or is the range so narrow that it doesn't matter?
03-15-2004, 08:19 AM
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm allowing "DaScrew-Driver to take off on it's own. With the 24 footers it is happening sooner and with alot less power. On take off I am almost completely relaxed on the cyclic. If I were completely relaxed I would descend.
Once my turn is made and I had enough altitude I will relax on the cyclic to the point I'm doing 60mph, however, I'm diving. When I go to level out, I'm between 45-50mph but my turns still feel mushy.
It just doesn't feel like Steve's machine power lift and all.
03-15-2004, 09:52 AM
A properly adjusted trim spring is VERY important. Take the time to do it. Without proper adjustment it is difficult to "feel" the gyro fly to know how much stick pressure is needed.
To adjust the trim spring, fly at what feels like the best cruise speed for your gyro - probably about 55 mph. Hold that altitude by adjusting the throttle. Hold the speed by adjusting the stick. When it is steady at the same altitude and fixed power setting note the engine rpm setting and then determine if you are pulling back on the stick or pushing forward on it to keep the speed steady.
If you are pulling back then make the trim spring tighter (move it about 1/2" or so). If you are pushing then make the spring looser. Fly again to do the same thing, land and adjust the spring. Fly and adjust until you have it so you can take your hand off the stick with the throttle setting the same and the gyro maintains the steady speed you set. You will probably never have to touch the trim spring again and flying will be much easier.
03-15-2004, 12:42 PM
03-15-2004, 03:41 PM
John, as you know, no two machines are alike...
I have taken off in my Dominator with as little throttle as possible, with as much throttle as possible, and just about everywhere in between.
The more throttle I get off the ground with, the better I like it. As soon as I get off the ground with W O throttle I can do a quick 90 degree turn or even a 180 if I want to. The less throttle I take off with, the mushier it is. If I get off the ground with as little as is requirred, then I am on the verge of being behind the power curve.
If you've got it, don't be afraid to use it. Power can save your butt.
03-15-2004, 04:23 PM
Power is what John don't have. Direct drive Vw's and Subaru EA-81's are too heavy for the power. By johns account his machine weights 563 pounds. I bet it is a little more as it sits today. His engine should give about 280-310 pounds of thrust. The power to weight minimums would be 2 pounds of weight to one pound of thrust. He is real close to that number right now.
If john weighted 50 pounds less the performance would be much much better. Or if John could find more power to gain 50 pounds more thrust he would be VERY pleased! This is why most folks shoot for using a redrive and bigger prop with the car engines. If he had used one he could expect at least 75 pounds more thrust and for only a little more in all up weight.
Steve can make the gyro look good flying - as can John with practice - by flying the thing fast. you don't have much power in a machine like Johns, but you can still haul butt with it, so you trade off raw power for speed.
The good thing about it, is flying this gyro will be good practice for John, that way if he were to move into a higher performance machine he will know where he is in relations to the powercurve much more so than if he always flew high powered machines.
03-15-2004, 05:41 PM
What you said all makes sense. Steve can make it look real good for two reasons. 1. Because of his vast experience, and 2. The fact that he probably weighs a little less than John.
I said what I did a couple of posts back because of something that John said in an earlier post. He indicated to me that he took off with less than full throttle. Therefore, he was forced to keep the stick forward and climb very slowly. Otherwise, he would have fallen quickly. Or at least that's what I got out of his earlier post. Anyway, it seemed to me that he was riding a very thin line.
03-15-2004, 08:17 PM
Both of you are right.
However, I would like to clarify a few points.
1. my vdub is 66hp peak/ 60 continious
2. Steve weighed in at 215
3. I wieghed in at 218 :(
No enough wieght diff between us. Skill is a mile.
Ron, that 563 is the machine, oil, gas, and me. 563 is the heaviest it will be on takeoff.
The machine itself is 345 full tank. 295 empty.
Got the registration on it today. "DaScrew-Driver" is officially N34KB.
03-15-2004, 08:45 PM
Horsepower is just a number when it comes to aircraft engines. What counts is how much trust will it produce. It is easy to measure the trust of your gyro with the proper scales. I would be surprised if your gyro pulls more than 300-310 pounds. If all up weight is where you say it is, then performance will be acceptable but not a rocket ship either. Where you will see the lack of excess power will be in throttle percentage needed for normal cruise and then in Rate of climb. Top speed won't suffer too much, I am sure it will go as fast as is comfortable with no pod or windshield. I think it will be a great first gyro for you.
03-15-2004, 08:46 PM
By the way, you will see even better performance by switching to Dragon wing rotorblades. A set of 24 or even 25 footers would be perfect for it.
03-15-2004, 11:00 PM
John, I am like Ron about the Dragon Wings. Based on me using 24' blades, if you could borrow a set of 25 or even 26 footers, I think you should try them just to see the difference. Then I think you would be calling Ernie for a new pair of blades for Da Screw-Driver.
03-16-2004, 05:04 AM
I was rolling down the runway , checking the rotor rpm, ground speed , wind sock and I had to use most of the runway to lift off and then it seemed that with full power I was still climbing very slow! Why?
03-16-2004, 05:11 AM
More info please:
You fly an AC single with a 582, right?
Are you using a 3 blade Warp?
How many engine r's can you turn while climbing out?
What blades are you using?
What's your air speed?
You didn't have a tail wind, did you?
03-16-2004, 06:37 AM
Dave in nearly every gyro I have flown including the powerful ones and the dogs, It is always best once the wheels come off the ground to level off a few feet off the ground and allow the gyro to speed up to a speed higher than cruise - shoot for maybe 65-70 - and then a little bit of back pressure on the stick and it will climb out great. You got to let the speed build up first and then climb out, if you just takeoff and go straight into a climb then it will barely climb at all.
When you level out to build up speed, it only takes a few seconds at full power to do this.
03-16-2004, 08:00 AM
Hey John: Glad to hear the hub bar improved things--it looked like you were having a pretty good time up there when I left. blue skies, stuart
03-16-2004, 08:04 AM
Thanks Ron and Chuck.
I believe every word both of you are saying. DaScrew-Driver is what it is.
I am nervous now with those 24 footers of ground strike. The only way to make that any better would be to raise the mast. Change out the engine and I'll have more power. By this time, DaScrew-Driver would be another machine. I am happy with it as it is am I'll bet a dollar I just need to learn how to fly her.
03-16-2004, 08:05 AM
At the first opportunity, I'd like for you to fly her. I think you'll probably like it. You may even not reconize any of the flying stuff I'm having trouble with due to your experiance. I'm wondering if I'm just having trouble with trim. Steve doesn't have any trouble with it and he even like the 22 ft blades. I saw him doing nose down turns with the 22 fotters low to the ground! H*ll, I'm having trouble making turns without losing 100 foot of altitude. The bigger blades making better for me, but I'd probably learn better habbits with the 22 footers.
03-16-2004, 08:28 AM
You're doing just fine. Don't push on performance until you get hrs. and hrs. of experience.
Proper rotor control and airspeed control coupled with attitude control should be uppermost in your mind as you control your build up of hours in your logbook. Lots of controls goin' on.
Just enjoy the hell out of what doin' right now.
03-16-2004, 08:32 AM
Great advice, Harry!
03-16-2004, 09:07 AM
John are you kidding me, I can't wait to take her for a spin! since your bailing on Bensen days I hope you can swing up this way to Goose Creek. You know you got a free place to stay if you come.
I think 22's are too short for that weight anyway. Do you have a rotortach? If so what is the readings you see? I think you need 24s or even 25s to get things right.
Rock the gyro back on the tail and push the rotorblade down till it hits the rear stops. Does it hit the ground? If not you should have nothing to worry about. If it does then you have to look at how bad it is and make the decision then for new mast etc... I have had several gyros that if you rocked them on the tail and pushed the blades down the blades COULD touch the ground or even the top of the tall tail. remember the blades curve up in flight and they don't normally come close to the stops unless you flap them.
03-16-2004, 09:09 AM
Hey John while your up here and I am flying the screw driver, you can fly this...... I trust you will have fun with it, just don't do any loops or rolls below 1000 feet AGL!
03-16-2004, 10:14 AM
Chuck & Ron All the above is what I have with 24' rotors from Ernie Boyette (I hope I spelled that right) It was that I had to use a lot of runway at 25 mph before lift off but I did try to climb right from that point and did not build airspeed
03-16-2004, 10:25 AM
Dave not sure I understand. You need to build up speed once you lift off by flying straight and level in ground effect before you start climbing out and it will climb out real nicely.
As for takeoff, once you start off slow and the blades get faster and faster, once it rocks back on the tail and you go to the balance on the mains, you can pretty much go right to full throttle and lift off a lot quicker than if your babying the throttle after the rock back.
On my old RFI-150 with rotorhawk blades, once I got to 150 RRPM I could nail the big Subaru wide open, long before it even rocked back to the tail. I could get out of a tight strip with that machine even though the pre rotator would ony go to about 110 RRPM.
03-16-2004, 10:52 AM
I do look forward to seeing you Ron and I'll pass on fying the ultralight. I'm sure it's a good machine, but I don't want mess uip my fonswey.
03-16-2004, 10:53 AM
I'll be at the airshow at Herbert Smart this Saturday and Scott and I are going out there Thursday to practice. Wanna come?
03-16-2004, 06:29 PM
where is this place? I doubt I can make it, I am back to work now - only reason I was here posting earlier today was cause it was raining this morning here. Can't mow lawns in the rain....... :-[
Thursday night I have a appointment with Barry K and a friend Tim Moses to get new points installed and timing set on Barrys Rotax 447 that goes on his Gyrobee. I don't know how to set the timing and Barry doesn't either, Tim is the Rotax guru so he is going to do it, we are going to watch and take notes.
Saturday is hopefully the big day Barrys gyrobee will go on it's first flight. We should have the engine back on and the final cheek plates on there by lunch and then just one last hang test and then a looking over real good and then I go be a crash test dummy.... I mean test pilot! ;D
Sunday is my son Kaseys birthday. He will be one years old - officially it is Monday but were having him a party on Sunday.
The following weekend is the Goose Creek fly in and then the next two weekends after that I will be at Bensen Days.
Now next week I might get freed up for a day but not sure yet. And once my Piper is back from the shop in another month or so, I will be flying down every few weekends to see you Georgia Crackers fly your gyrochoppers!
Does it look like you might make G.C.?
03-17-2004, 07:24 AM
Tell your son I said, "Happy Birthday!"
Herbert Smart is in Macon Ga. ID is KMAC. I understand if you can't make it.
03-17-2004, 07:25 AM
Steve is putting on a demo at the airshow. I can't wait.
03-17-2004, 07:27 AM
John, how many machines are you expecting to be there?
03-17-2004, 04:41 PM
As a fellow Gyro Student, albeit pre-solo, I've got a couple of questions/observations about your experiences. I'm training in Buckeye on the AAI modified RAF (hopefully the Sparrow hawk pretty soon now) which I know is a very different machine from the one you're flying. During the takeoff, I have to use a fair amount of forward pressure to keep the gyro on the ground until it reaches sufficient airspeed. It WILL come off the ground much earlier if I let it, which would be a really bad thing to do. Additionally, after it leaves the ground, I have to add a little more forward pressure to keep the nose from coming up once the drag from wheels is removed. My takeoff is much how Ron described it. Once the Gyro leaves the ground, I have establish the proper pitch and then let it accelerate until it reaches best climb speed. It sounds like you're Gyro is behaving very differently, which might be totally normal, but it does disturb me a little that your climb out is so slow and that you can't make a turn without loosing altitude. Are you sure you're not flying too slowly and/or taking off at too low a speed? Have you detemined the Minimum Power Required speed for your Gyro? Do you have sufficient surplus power above that to maintain altitude at that speed in a steep turn?
I don't mean to imply any critisism of your flying skills or
Steve's instruction by asking these questions, I'm just a little worried about what you're describing.
03-17-2004, 08:38 PM
There are 8 machines at Steve's hanger....All of wich will be on the flight line/display. I think Steve is gonna be the only demo pilot.
03-17-2004, 08:41 PM
Ther cyclic forward your mentioning has been mentioned to me by Steve. Hopefully, I'll get it right tomarrow (Thursday). No, I haven't determined minimum power for level flight yet. I'll be working on that tomarrow.
Thanks for the input...As tactfully put as it was.
03-17-2004, 10:12 PM
One of the things I found when converting a Raf to Hybrid was that with CLT the nose came up too early and it was difficult to hold the nosewheel on the ground and to have increasing rrpm. Bad enough dual, but solo it was a real pain.
Having the nosewheel leave the ground before authorative rudder control is not good for beginners!!!!
I shifted the axle back until I was happy. I am pretty sure I end up shifting it 4".
03-18-2004, 02:53 PM
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