new ultra light tractor gyro

[gyroblackwell]

O.K. it's time to let the cat out of the bag. anyone who has seen chuck beaty's design will know where some of the design ideas came from.

the rest of the design was taken from many different craft. The afford-a-plane provided ideas on the nose portion. I really enjoyed building the gyrobee, so I have used the construction techniques that I picked up from that build.

The frame tubes are composite ! thats right you read correct ! I am using polyethelene filler blocks in all the joints to protect the composite sandwich. Epoxy is being used to bond the aluminum to the composite material before bolting the components together. This composite material is 1/3 lighter then aluminum.

Motor is an f-23 (hirth) 45horse. I will install 23 foot DW's or R-hawk blades.

Comments? O.K. let-her-rip !

[gyroblackwell]

Here is a shot of the actual build.

The landing gear will be inline-swing arm and a tail dragger.

yes is will have an HS. A3-blade IVO prop - 60" will be used.

Fuel will be behind the fire-wall, or in the seat-tank. CofG will determine the final location.

I hope to have this ready to fly by PRA-Mentone fly-in.

[Mike Jackson]

Looks like a delightful creation! A tractor design using KISS principles is long overdue.

I have the dwgs to the Affordaplane and have done some imagineering around it wrt gyros - you're well along the way!

I look fwd to seeing the progress here and hopefully the machine at Mentone.

Cheers,

Mike

[barnstorm2]

Wow, I am quite impressed.

Is it ment to be a one of a kind or a prototype for plans/kits in the future?

[quadrirotor]

even simpler!

[gyroblackwell]

I just want to prove the design concept first. If all goes well, and there is a lot of interest in the design, I am prepared to produce plans as well as frame kits for this design.

I designed the frame with Kit shipment in mined. All tubes are 4 ft. long or shorter. 1/8 aluminum plates are water-jet cut (including the holes)

The majority of the holes are 3/16" dia. With 1/4" only being used where needed.

Lastly, I have tried to use "off-the-shelf" parts as much as possible to avoid having to custom build a lot of parts.

[gyroblackwell]

quadrirotor wrote : even simpler!

Take a look at the number of frame tubes/angels and then tell me ....

Is that design REALLY simpler ?

I felt that I had done a good job of keeping the parts count down as well as not over-building the mast mounting.

What you have shown me looks pretty complicated to me !!

Just my opinion !

[Mike Jackson]

Hey Tim,

What kind of MLG suspension are you using?

Mike

[gyroblackwell]

Mike,
I found a trailer suspension on the net, and basically copied the design intent but used Aluminum, polyurathane and chrome-molly in place of the steel, and rubber that the mfgr. uses.

I tried to make the set up so that it can be built using simple hand tools
i.e. drill, bandsaw, welder . The concept is a diamond within a square. This creates four triangled pockets in the corners. fill that area with urathane and you have a shock/dampener.

[Whirlydog]

Maybe I am missing something here, but where,how are you mounting the rotor and controls? Will you be using a between the legs stick or one coming down from above?

As far as the basic frame work shown in the picture, I think you have some neat design ideas.

Shawn

[gyroblackwell]

Thanks shawn !

The controls will be a pump handle conected to 3 flexdyne push-pull cables. I have 5 of these mounted on my flightstar ultralight.

(ailerons(2) elevator (2) rudder (1) they are light, strong, and as long as you provide some redundency, they are very safe.

I will have one tied to each end of the control t-bar at the rotor head, with one mounted in the middle, and attached directly to the 1"sq. control bar. This provides redundency so that any one of the flex cables can break, and control is still maintained.

The stick mounts between the legs, but curves towards the front.
The flex cables let me route the controls to the front side of the rotorhead system without ending up with control rods in your line of site.

I will provide a better wireframe model pic as soon as I get all the components assembled in the assembly file.

[rehler]

Looks good!

I suggest you place the fuel tank at or very near the CG and use something else, like the battery, to adjust the overall balance. The balance should be as needed to make the CG at a point below and 11 degrees forward of the rotor teeter pin. The fuel needs to be located on this line, so the CG does not move as fuel is used and the tank becomes lighter.

[gyroblackwell]

I am planning for the fuel tank to be mounted just in front of the rotor head C/L . right behind the instrument panel as is done on most tractor gyros and fixed wings (afford-a-plane). Thanks for the input.

I am not sure I understand the 11 degrees though. ? .

The mast pivots at the junction above and just behind the seat. while the two front strut-tubes are disconnected and the two large strut tubes are a tube-within-a-tube, which telescopes. This allows for blade installation WITHOUT a ladder ! :)

tail-wheel is steer-able along with differential brakes on the mains.
I will be using the brakes that John Landry displayed on his Bee.

[Mike Jackson]

Hey Tim,

Clever these Americans (re suspension). I've never seen anything like it.

I noticed what appears to be 2 round formers(?) on the aft fuselage sides. Are you covering the structure or will you leave it naked?

Mike

[gyroblackwell]

The tail feathers as they are modeled will be covered with sheet aluminum.
I will fill the void between the tubes with polyurathane sheet that is carved/shaped to create an airfoil.

the horz. stab mounts to the VS about the prop centerline. I will post a model pic of the completed design as soon as i finish the assembly model.

i am installing s.s. cables from the bottom of the tail to the rear angle supports that mount the seat. By doing this the tail section becomes very ridgid.

[gyroblackwell]

other then the nose cowl, and enclosure for the instruments, the rest of the frame will remain open for now.

what you are seeinf are is the seat fram tubes that came with the seat.

[rehler]

Why 11 degrees?

On most gyros the rotor head and the mast is tilted back 9 degrees and the rotor disk tilts back another 2 degrees during forward flight (front blade tip higher than the back blade tip). This adds up to 11 degrees, which is the "rotor thrust vector" - the direction the rotor blades is pulling up on the gyro. The RTV always goes directly through the gyro's CG, unless the gyro has something that tilts the gyro while in flight, like a horizontal stabilizer pushing down tilting the gyro nose up so the RTV line runs down behind the CG (good), or a windshield pushing the nose down so the RTV line is behind the CG (bad).

The 11 degrees is a good angle to use for designing a new gyro.

[gyroblackwell]

Got it ! Thanks for the info. I knew this 11 degrees was critical in a pusher config. but to tell you the truth i was not sure if the same applied in the tractor mode.

i will be using a full tail (VS and HS) and a lexan windshield will be used also.

I still need to do the final C of G calculation too.

nice thing about this design is that I can put the rotor-head at any particular location during the build.

I will post the latest assembly model tonite.
The only thing that is changed is the tube length for the angled mast.

[rehler]

Tim,

I went through the same thing you are when I designed my gyro. I found that it was important to "calculate" the CG location as close as possible to design the parts to build the gyro, but ...

After it is completed (all but the cheek plates) you will need to determine the real CG by hanging the gyro (hang test) using temporary cheek plates (plywood or scrap aluminum plates) with several hole in them. You can hang from each hole until the gyro keel tilts nose down 11 degrees (with pilot in seat and half fuel). Then you can make the real cheek plates to position the rotor head properly.

This makes the gyro perfect for you, but it will be a little off for another heavier or lighter pilot.

[GyroRon]

Ken would the 11 degrees you mention apply to any gyro or just one with a mast at 90 degrees to the keel? I ask because right now I am in the process of doing hang testing on a friends plans built gyrobee and after talking to Maxie Wildes to get some target numbers to shoot for he is saying to get 10 degrees nose down on the keel or mast. But the mast on a gyrobee is 90 to the keel, the 9 degrees of back in the bee is done at the cheekplates. A normal gyro has the mast back at 9 degrees already so I was told they should hang at 1 to 5 degrees nose down, where as for this bee he says we should get 10 to 14 degrees to account for the mast not being tilted back. What do you think?

[ben]

ron, my air command is that way mast 9 degrees back. mast 1 to 5 on hang test

[GyroRon]

Thanks Ben.

[Aussie_Paul]

The hang test goes like this,

The head should be leaning back 9 degrees to the horizontal datum which is generally the keel. During the hang test, which has nothing to do with C of G, the datum should lean forward 9 to 12 degrees. This will insure adequate control travel for all phases of flight.

Aussie Paul.

[rehler]

Yes, 11 degrees is the same for any gyro - it is 11 degrees from the bottom keel (or any other level part of the gyro) from vertical. It does not matter if the mast is 9 degrees tilted or zero degrees tilted, as the mast is not measured. You measure the keel!

If you measure the mast and it happens to be tilted back at 9 degrees (very common) then the mast would tilt 2 degrees more (2+9=11).

It does not have to be exact, but if you are designing a new gyro for a specific pilot then why not make it exactly 11 degrees.

[Udi]

Tim,

Beautiful design!

I've noticed that your “top-keel/seat support tube/base keel” structure is not triangulated. This means most of the bending stress is taken by the cheek plates. I hope you are aware of that.

Regarding a hang test - the purpose of the hang test is to ensure that, in flight, the cyclic will be in the neutral position at cruise speed. The keel and mast angles don’t really matter. During the hang test, when the stick is held in the neutral position, the cyclic should be measured 2 degrees nose down. This will ensure proper cyclic control during flight.

The HS should be angled about 11 degrees to the cyclic to fly level. Same goes for the engine thrust line. And I assume you are designing the engine thrust line to pass through the gyro CG.

Udi-

[gyroblackwell]

Not sure which portion you are refering too!

The seat connect point will have two cables that connect to the bottom of the VS. This triangulates the tale to the keel.

I have been looking at the point above my head (no punn intended) where the tail connects to the mast tube. I may s.s. cable that junction down to the landing gear s.s. bracket. This will be trial fitted after the frame is complete.

I finished the seat mount last nite, and got a chance to sit in my new contraption, and make funny engine noises !! ;D

[Udi]

Your "cabin" is not triangulated. Imagine you are making a hard landing on all three wheels. Your body weight is pressing on the keel/mast. The keel is supported in front by the front wheels. The mast is supported on top by the tail tube, which is supported be the tail wheel. Since this triangle is open, all your weight (multiplied x G-force) will be supported by the keel/mast cheek plates. This may be ok if you have made the proper stress analysis.

Pulling cables from the mast to the landing gear will not help.

Udi-

[gyroblackwell]

I agree that cable from the mast to the mains won't help with your senerio, but the cables that will run from the tail to the seatframe will.

what i am concerned about at this point in the design is the twisting loads that may be present. as the design sits right now, all the twisting loads are be transmitted to the keel tube. That is why I may place cable from the check plates down to the mains.

Good observation thougth! I will run an analisys on your senerio, and see what comes out !

[Dean]

Tim, What is your estimated weight for that bird without fuel?

[aaron hughes]

Quadrirotor
Gday mate Aaron here from Orroroo south Australia i just want to know where you got that photo of my Dads tractor gyro which you called "even simpler"Dad was killed in another gyro in 1996 that tractor i have in the shed its a real beauty and he flew many hours in that machine.
It now looks a little different as he put a front wheel on it as the rear wheel steering was to sensitive.
The joystick did come straight down it also was changed as the controls where back to front anyway i would be very interested how you got photos of a machine in the outback of auz as he was very secrective of that machine and us kids havent posted them.
cheers aaron

[gyroblackwell]

Dean,

Sorry for the delayed reply!
The frame is 50lbs., the motor is 78lbs., and the rest is the usual.
should come in around 200lbs. empty!

Tim

[gyroblackwell]

Guys,

I finally got a website up and running. :D
I will be documenting the tractor gyro build- with pictures, and explainations.

SO.... go check it out, and be sure to sign the guest book, and leave a link if you have something of interest to share.

http://webspawner.com/users/gyromaxwell

Thanks,
:)
Tim

[GyroJoe]

I just want to prove the design concept first. If all goes well, and there is a lot of interest in the design, I am prepared to produce plans as well as frame kits for this design.

Hi Tim,

I think there's another GYROthusiast, besides myself here in chapter 62, that's interested in your design.

We're rootin' for ya! Keep it up!

Regards,
Joe

[junkyardbear]

Hi Joe,
Maybe together we can get Tim to work a little faster! GO GO
but keep it safe:) Fellow Ch. 62 member


Kirby Stoltz

[gyroblackwell]

Thanks Joe and Kirby!

I am going as fast as I dare!

Horizontal stabs: DONE
Rudder: DONE
Tailwheel and spring: DONE
Vertical stab : DONE

ToDO:
rudder pedals and mounting
control stick build and mounting

Test taxi to see if the main-gear and tail-wheel will hold up to rough field
use.

mount rotorhead
details, details, details...

[GyroJoe]

Test taxi to see if the main-gear and tail-wheel will hold up to rough field use.

Tim,

WOW! A bolt-together ultralight tractor gyro with rough field capabililties. Go man, go!

(Where's Kirby?)

On another, more serious note, I read somewhere you want to call it a GyroDeere, "nothing flies like a deer(e)". I'm not an expert in law, but I'd be very afraid of being sued on that one.

Whadda ya say we all pitch in and submit names for your creation? Just an idea.

Take Care Friend,
Joe

[Victor Duarte]

Tim,
congratulations, that's a clever and light design, i like it. are you going to join the tail and seat ? how are you going to proceed for the tests ?
i like the rotor blades also, they look cheap ;)
good luck and be safe.

[junkyardbear]

To show my faith in your tractor project on how much I like it so far, ordered
my green flatfree tires... Hey I am thinking positive here! Please put me down for the first set of plans to be sent out :) Northern Tool quit selling those, getting mine from
Greentyre direct...said he had a few left. Have a good one Tim.

[gyroblackwell]

Zeooo, Those were VERY cheap blades .... but the ground speed to get airborne was almost mach 1 !!!

The tail is tied to the keel/seat tube thru 2 SS cables. The frame was strong enough to hold 215 lbs in the seat without anything, but I need the strength of the cable to overcome the twist that the composite tubing allows.

I will post the latest pics when I get home tonite.

The short blades were used to demonstrate the "man-powered" pre-rotator.
I only wish I had gotten video of it in action !!

The testing for rough feild will be by means of .... "a rough field" ! I will remove the motor... replace it with equal weight in the form of concrete, bolt weight up on the mast to equal rotorhead+blades, and put my butt in the seat and have my oldest kid tow me all around the Mentone airport grass, asphault,and all. If it survives that, then I gross weight the seat with sand bags and drop the entire thing from 3-4 ft off the ground. If all survives, then as far as I am concerned ...IT'S SAFE !! :D

[Udi]

...If it survives that, then I gross weight the seat with sand bags and drop the entire thing from 3-4 ft off the ground. If all survives, then as far as I am concerned ...IT'S SAFE !! :D
Tim - it's not that I don't have faith in your design, but why don't take a video of this test just in case the worst happens - you can send it to the funniest home videos. You may even win a prize... Just kidding. I would be really nervous doing this kind of test if it was my baby.

Udi

[et3dotcom]

IMO 3-4 foot drop at gross weight will cause damage! it's been along time since reading it, yet if i remember corectly the FAR for utility catigory requires 18" drop -- and this was considered one of the hardest tests in the certification process.

[Victor Duarte]

Tim,
i wish it's safe, i was thinking you were to perform some run tests without rotor , then some hops... starving to see you fly.
Thanks

[gyroblackwell]

I will make sure to video the drop test! O.K. I will not drop from 3 to 4 ft.

actually the thought was to drop from 3 ft. with my weight (210) plus 30lb for fuel, to make sure that a bad landing on my part does not turn into a bad accident !

As promised, here is the latest and greatest pictures of the Jyro-Deer! :D

[gyroblackwell]

Some more pictures. The cardboard behind the prop is a template for the cowling. (I forgot to take it off before shoot the pics)

some larger shots for detail. The horizontal tail feathers are foam,glass, and composite tube. They will have one strut each underneath for support! :)

[Jim]

Looks like a simple, but good design.

Keep the photos coming and congratulations!

Jim

[GyroJoe]

Looks like a simple, but good design.

Keep the photos coming and congratulations!

Jim

Jim,

I agree.

Joe

[L_Butler]

Tim,

A 36 inch drop is a velocity of over 800 ft/min. That's well over what's required for the Sport Pilot standards. 500 ft/min is approx 13 inch drop.

Larry

[mceagle]

Tim, not trying to be critical but a drop test from 3 ft is way too high. If you did this it would fail at the main "keel" at the joint above the seat (and possibly other places). This would not be a fair test of the integrity of the design. The Australian "Two Seat Airworthiness Requirements" firstly adopted the British standard of 0.33 mt (13") and soon found out that this figure was way too high. The members of the LSA task force agreed that impact from this drop height would not be representative of a gyro at its max descent rate possible in a vertical descent with no engine. The figure was reduced considerably again to a much lower figure - but I cannot remember off hand just what that figure was.
Incidentally, a drop from 1 ft would damage most Gyros.

[gyroblackwell]

Keep it up guys and you will have talked me into not doing ANY drop test ! :D

Shall we agree to drop this baby from 12 inches with MAX. load

Or should we drop this machine from 13 inches with MY normal MAX weight (me plus fuel) of 240 lbs. ?

Let's put this one to a vote shall we !!! :rolleyes:

[Brent_Brown]

I would you some hard landing and see how it works.

[gyromike]

Keep it up guys and you will have talked me into not doing ANY drop test ! :D

Shall we agree to drop this baby from 12 inches with MAX. load

Or should we drop this machine from 13 inches with MY normal MAX weight (me plus fuel) of 240 lbs. ?

Let's put this one to a vote shall we !!! :rolleyes:

Tim,

Why not start off at 2", then 4", etc., while using a video camera to record the drop.

That way you be able to inspect after each drop for any deformations in the tubing and hardware, and make changes/allowances before something lets go.

It will also allow you to also measure the amount of compression and rebound in your suspension at each height.

I'm sure you could beg/steal/borrow two camcorders, one in front and one on the side, for the tests.

[gyroblackwell]

WHAT !! ..... Drop it more then once ? :eek:

:rolleyes: O.K. maybe .... but I am not sure how much abuse my baby can take !! :D

I still would like to have something left to fly at the end of the day ... if you know what I mean .....

But a good idea is a good idea .... got an extra camcorder in your back pocket? ;)

[gyroblackwell]

After the club meeting today, I had a chance to mount the rudder pedals that I built. I also took the opportunity to intall the H-stabs, and support brakets.

Even got a picture of myself sitting on the beast !

Enjoy!

[gyroblackwell]

Here are the rest of the pics!

Any of you who have never seen my "ugly mug" can now put a face with a name !!

Enjoy!

[CLS447]

Tim, are those pedals chromoly turning on a solid aluminum axle with nylon bushings or sleeves of some sort?

It sure is looking good though, should be a very interesting gyro. I hope it works out great for you the first time!

If we make it to Mentone this year, I would love to see it flying! Definitely 1 more reason to go, that's for sure.

[StanFoster]

Chris: What do you mean "if" you are going to make it to Mentone this year? :eek: We need you and your beautuful gyro stirring the air.

Thats the only reason I am coming to Bensen days is to personally get you to promise a visit to Mentone. :D

Stan

[CLS447]

Stan, it's all about money, or my lack thereof! We wanna do Mentone & Oshkosh. As far as bringing my machine, I would love to bring it but first I need them HP upgrades & have it fully test flown with all the new mods. Also an enclosed trailer would really help the situation.... Can I loan about 10 grand? We'll discuss the terms at BD's alright?

Tim, sorry about the sidetrack.

What prop do you think you will be using on the "Deer"?

[et3dotcom]

Instead of a drop test first, do some load tests. With the gyro on the ground load it up with sand bags at all load points. Apply the load evenly and incrementally. Before each increment measure and chart the deflection at each critical anti-node. Stop when you get to 3G, unload the structure and measure again to see if there has been any permanent deflection. This will not guarantee surviving a drop test but will help.

[gyroblackwell]

Chris, thanks for the comments! the pedals are chrome-molly with platic bearings riding on a chrome-molly tube-shaft. the spacers are aluminum.
I will be making more of these pedals, as I have already built a fixture for the assembly, and the metal work is very simple. I have had a number of requests for sets of these! (surprise-surprise) The prop is already installed on the motor. It is a GSC 60" wood prop with ground adjustable hub. The price was great, 275$ for a 2 blade with 6061-T6 hub.

I won't have it done in time for Bensen Days, but am planning on having it flying by Mentone. Hope you can make it up so I have some-one to fly around with !!! :D

[gyroblackwell]

Daryl, I have done a couple of "load-point" tests so far to see if the swing-arm gear will hold the weight. The situation I am more concerned with is the rough-field rolling impacts. On a swing-arm axle, this is a translation load, that tends to use forward motion to increase the load on the axle.

I will be doing more of this testing when I have the control sys. mounted.

I read you short clips on the hornet site. I am working on a composite one piece frame for a pusher gyro..... would be interested in chating on the "water-landing" craft that you have.

Will you be attending Bensen Days this year? I will be there. let me know and maybe we can get together for luch, and talk DESIGN !!!

[et3dotcom]

I will be at B.D. for at least a couple days. I look forward to talking design over lunch.
http://www.et3.com/Daryl%20Oster.htm
has a photo of me , and I will plan on wearing a bright green et3 shirt for ease of recgonition.

[gyroblackwell]

Wonderful ! I look forward to it !!

[et3dotcom]

The situation I am more concerned with is the rough-field rolling impacts. On a swing-arm axle, this is a translation load, that tends to use forward motion to increase the load on the axle.



Peak forces for impact loads can be high, especally with small wheels - The geometry of the swing axle definatly helps ease the horizontal impacts. Larger diamerter wheels are a big help too - 16" or 20" BMX wheels for rough field use (ultralight) or motorcycle wheels for a 2 place. Another idea i have to provide the advantage of big diameter is to use 4-5 small diameter wheels on each side - mounted inline -- like a inline skate but with the first wheel (or two)mounted a few inches higher - and perhaps a rubber belt "track" arround the wheels -- the advantage over large diameter wheels being less frontal area, and less weight.

[gyroblackwell]

I'm using 13" wheels right now. The swing-arm suspension is a copy of the system used on trailers with goodyear rubber providing the internal material.

I am still working the bugs out of the system I designed. I am using solid diameter poly-urathane rods placed between 2 square tubes that rotate inside each other.

I am adding some small diameter rods welded to the inside tube at or near the edges of the square to help trap the urathane rods a little better.

We will see if this sovles the problem. :rolleyes:

[CLS447]

Tim , I assumed you would be using a larger diameter prop than that. ?

[gyroblackwell]

Why would I do that? I spoke with the Hirth guys about the build, and my weight, the basic design. They gave me the Dia. and initial pitch angle to set the blades at. GSC confirmed the Dia. and the pitch setting.

Any bigger Diameter, and the hirth would have a tough time getting to peak rpm!

Something you know that I don't?

I ran a 60" three blade IVO on my 503 for 4 years, and am running a 60" 2 blade on the 377 right now.

Remember I am running a tractor, so she pulls more air up front ..... no body blocking the incoming flow!

[CLS447]

Why would you do that? Because you could ! Or at least I thought you could.

My 447 AC is limited by design to a 60" prop & my SxS is limited to 68".

If it could fit , I think I would be using a bigger prop on both.

The Little wing can handle a much bigger prop by design. I guess that is why I assumed you would use a larger one.

How about it guys , What Diameter prop are you guys spinning on those machines?

[Brent_Brown]

Well I just make the pegleg gyro and it will be using a 73" powerfin. I am sure that it it had a 60" whatever on it it would not pull the 340 pounds. And that is out of a MZ 202P 60 HP. This gyro is going to kick air.

[gyroblackwell]

That's cool just wondered if I was missing the boat!
I may jump up to a bigger prop later. Just don't wan to put too much load on the hirth belt drive system without being sure it can handle it ! :D

[gyroblackwell]

It's been awhile ... oh skip the intro .... here are the latest pics on the
Jyro Deer.

Rudder pedals - mounted
Rudder control system - mounted

Working on the control stick mounting.

Seatbelt 4-point - mounted.

pics loaded!

[Brian Jackson]

Sweet, Tim. Hoping to make it to Mentone this month and see it for myself. Last time I saw the tail it still had the plastic wrap and clecos. Lookin' good.

[et3dotcom]

looking good gyro Maxwell.

I hoped to meet you at BDs to discuss tractors, i was there for the rotoryforum meeting, but was unable to locate you.

[Vance]

Nice work Tim. It is looking very well thought out with particularly nice workmanship. I really enjoied meeting you at Bensen days and you were so very nice about my input at Mentone. My respect for you increses with every interaction. Thank you for being a big part of the Autogiro family, Vance

[CLS447]

Tim, it's coming along nicely ! Very exciting project.

You should also kick & help that Don Shoebridge guy ! I want to see a flying HORNET once in my life !

[Jazzenjohn]

Just as a point of reference concerning the drop test. In the Bensen book they suggest giving the completed B-80 gyro a drop (without blades of course) from no more than 8 inches.

[WindRyder06]

G-force landing gear :D

Fly Safe,
Chris

[chuter]

Tim, I have a question about the tail wheel; it looks like it is free to caster, if it is, how will you slow-taxi in a crosswind? Seems like it would be hard to keep straight.

[gyroblackwell]

Daryl, - I was bummed that I missed speaking with you also. I did not get there til Thur. afternoon. I kept looking for the "lime t-shirt" but never saw it!
We must hook up online, and chat about our respective designs. Send me your yahoo ID (name) so I can contact you via messanger.

Brian - our next chapter 81 meeting is the 14th ..... don't miss it !

Vance - I was really pumped after seeing your new design ..... If there is anything I can do to get it put to metal, just let me know !

Chuter - I had to wait for the springs for the tail-wheel. (on order) AND I went and mounted the cables which will now have to be replaced in order to connect the tail wheel cables to the rudder cables. (DUH! on my part)

my tail wheel will not be able to "free caster". not sure how that will affect
backing it into a hanger.... but that is a small problem -over all -

I will get some more pic's this week-end since I just noticed that I did not get any pics of the push/pull rods that connect the pedals to the pivot-bar.

thanks for the comments, and stay tuned for more pics and updates!

[GyroJoe]

Hi Tim,

Karl, the oldest member of our group, wants
to know if you're going to have some sort of
shield to deflect the prop blast?

Joe

[Brent_Brown]

Vance - I was really pumped after seeing your new design ..... If there is anything I can do to get it put to metal, just let me know !

Vance can you show us this new design?

[gyroblackwell]

Gyo-joe --Tell Karl YES ! I am using the simplest form of windscreen
I have seen yet. I rap the four front tubes with velcro bands in 3 places
up and down the tubes. then, using .065 lexan sheet, I will wrap a windsheild
over the 4 tubes. makes a nice curved wind screen.

Right now I am fighting the dreaded landing gear system. I think I have a fix for the overloading of the gear.

We shall see !!

[Bob]

GyroMaxwell:
I just spent about 1 hour reading the entire Posts here ( well not the entire thing hehehe ) I read slow, but anyway I must congradulate you on a great design and a Fantastic looking aircraft so far ! I have no doubt in my mind that it will fly fantastically !
I think your shooting for the safest Gyro in the world record !
if the structure holds its gunn'a be a goodern' !
I'm happy for ya ! I wish I could be there when you take your first flight .... but I'll probly hear the Shouts of joy from here ! HAHAHHA!
.... Man it looks so good I may make one ! hehehe WELL DOME !!!!
and Definately ...Sell the plans !

....I do have one question , how wide is the front wheel stance ?

( My gyro-tail dragger has a 6'6" stance center to center of the tires )

Take care !
Bob.....

p.s. my prop is a 60" warpDrive adjustable pitch on a rotex 447 with 2.58:1 Gear Reduction.... if your still wondering about your prop.

[gyroblackwell]

Thanks Bob - I hope this thing flys too !

The landing Gear stance is 5'6" center-to-center of tires.

I am sticking with the 58" prop until I know better. I may end up changing it later, but for the RPM range that the F-23 runs at .... this was the prop listed.

I will update with more picks this week !

thanks again!

[Bob]

Great ! More Pics.. More Pics !
<grin>

Interesting that you chose such a narrow stance ! if it were mw i think i would'a gone with a 7 or 8 ft wide stance....
it'll make it hard as heck to transport anywhere but the added stability on the ground is greatly improved ! ... sense my stent with my BumbleBee stability on the ground is a major ishue to me , after all thats where ya start and end your flight from... its just as important as the flying part ! at least dats how I seez it ! hehehehe !
Have you got that front suspension figured out yet ? or still fiddleing with it ?
I was amagoning the box within a box rotation with the rubberbands in there to keep it from turning and spring back.... but could only come up with slippage myself too... let us know how ya solved the problem Please ! .... say fooie on it and pin it with a lag bolt ! hehehehehe
best of luck to ya !

Bob....

[gyroblackwell]

The best part about this design is that you can make the gear width what ever you want. I went with a little narrower stance because that is what I am comfortable with. As long as you change the two main down tube lengths to match the width you want, the rest is still the same !

That is what I try to design into my builds.. the ability to adapt the design to different enviroments, and likes-dislikes. I think that a design that is going to be successful needs to be flexible, and forgiving when it comes to the over-all structure.

I just finished my control system. It is a push-pull tube over tube design set up at an angle to the keel tube. This keeps the push/pull rods up away from my feet, and the rudder pedals. It's chrome-molly, and stainless steel.

I may go ahead and use chromemolly tubes for the push rods for now, while I figure out how best to mount the flex-shaft control cable.

Pics. are coming !

[Bob]

Hay thats a great idea there ... adaptable design !
Well, hay if your comfortable with the stance go for it man !
and good idea keeping the push pull tubes out of the way

when you described 3 tubes going to the rotor head ( i think it was you )
i thought hay thats great ! I should do that to my gyro and give the control rods to the rotor head some redundtancy.... because right now if one brakes its all over ! ... I think i'll see if i can squeeze that center one in there ... you know.... redundancy is good ! <GRIN>
...
Flex shaft to the pre rotator i asume , what are you going to do just extend the shaft of a wonderlitch pre rotator ? should be simple enough to do .... or you could use 1/2" swivel sockets for the universal joints ... i have 2 - 1/2" universal joints from my tool box i need to replace now <hehehehe> they work fantastically ! no sign of ware on the old one that came with the thing originally, the new one i just put in
looks like i just put it in ! and i run that pre rotator hard ! i had the pitch of my rotor blades set to 3.5 degrees ... and i had to spin it up every time i turned arround ! it was such a pain that i changed the pitch back to 2.5 degrees ( at this altitude 4.800 ft i need all the lift i can get ! )
the universal joints i've used are just regular tool products no need to buy the impact type because they are strong enough as they are
if your wondering about it anyway !
and you keep saying pic's to come .... SURE ! Uh hu ! sure we believe ya
next month some time we might get to see one .... HAHAHHAHAHAH!
( just giving ya a bad time! hehehe)

How did your haing test come out anyway ?

catch ya later !

Bob....

[gyroblackwell]

As promised ... here are some pics of the Jyro-Deer in it's present condition! :D

I have reworked the main gear (although you can't tell cause you can't see any of the changes.... they are all INSIDE !! ) seems to be hold up so far.

Built and installed the control stick ..... Need to bend and cut the stick to proper length.

[gyroblackwell]

As you can see I mounted my graphics on the tail.

some more pics.

[gyroblackwell]

I installed the firewall, and started work on the frame for the cowling, and cockpit area. I will skin the frame work with Aluminum, and then install the instrument panel.
The cheek plates are just for hang testing of the machine to see where my CG comes out, and to set the head in the proper place for a 10 degree nose down hang angle with all weight in place.

I'm getting closer, and getting pumped to get this ready for ground testing !

to-do's before beginning ground testing:
brakes
fuel system
control rods and rotorhead
Instrument panel and engine controls
Electrical system

More to come !!!

[junkyardbear]

Looking very nice Tim!

[Bob]

Very Nice Tim !
she's comeing along just fine ...
I was going to ask ya if you fired her up and drove her arround in the feild there yet to see how she steers , but if you don't have the fuel or insterments in, I bet ya havn't <grin>
love the green tires , guess you don't like flat tires ! hehehehehe
so did ya solve the suspension problem in the front ? sounds like ya did.... how did ya do it ? the veigns of metal welded to the inside idea work ?
you did your self up proud on the tail section, too bad the photos don't show the Horizonal stablizer though ...
at first look I thought wow thats a realy small rudder for a gyro, but then i realised that your bird there has a real long moment arm and don't need a big rudder ! thats cool !
... I have no doubt in my mind it will fly now Tim .... don't get in a hurry , do it right, and you'll have a gyro that you can boast about !
if you have flightsim 2004 or higher I can make a modle of your flying contraption for ya , if your interested , No charge ofcorse just so you can play with it in flight sim when the weather is bad <grin > hehehehe .... the offer is there if ya want it !
c'ya !

Bob.....

[pappyadkins]

Any updates?

[Glenn D]

Tim,

How far has the Jyro-deer come along? We haven't seen any more updates or photo's in along time. I'd like to see this gyro with a rotor on it!

Very different design!

Glenn

[Ga6riel]

Im sure a lot will agree this is a facinating project
I hope it spawns inspiration

[barnstorm2]

I too would like to hear if there are any updates!

[Jazzenjohn]

I think he's going to sell it at Mentone this year, not because he's said anything to me or anything like that but, it's in Indiana and he's in Florida last I heard. You can't overcome that obstacle with desire or determination to finish. I think since it's near enough to completion, he'll let it go with confidence it will be completed. JMHP (Just My Humble Prediction).

[barnstorm2]

I drove to Fla and back to get a gyro, a 2 place CLT, I don't see that as an obstacle that cannot be overcome.

Heck, if it will fit in my longbed Dakota I might be able to bring it as far south as Cincinnati...

[gyroblackwell]

John .... how dare you start such a rumor ......:D

No I am not selling it! I made that mistake once (and John is flying it !!)

I have been sooo busy with the new job that I have not had time to go back north and get it !!!

I will be doing so in the next couple of months. But thanks for the offer Tim O.

I have been developing in my mind, and building in my dreams !!

more info soon !!!!

Tim-out

[WHY]

Hi Tim

Have got a real ha ha for you, jusst got back yesterday from a trip to Springfield Ohio where I bought a pro;ject, it was on Barnstormers and was listed as a "Texas Parasol" fixed wing project and was the fuselage,engine and tail assembled but not co;vered in other words exactly; what I was looking for. It is constructed from rivited alu;minum angle and is light and very strong and has a xenoha ? two cy;clinder engine almost llike the one you now h;ave.

I have researched this aircraft and it is just what the doctor ordered for a easy conversion to a tractor style gyro will begin conversion in maybe a week

I find the plans were put in public domain laast year by the designer and the aircraft is supported by Sirus Aircraft in Mesquite Tx, this will be a closed fuselage open co;ckpit type and looks to be very easy to bu;ild .

Thought you would find it maybe funny about me go;ing into an;other aluminum fram gy;ro with an;other 2 cyl opposed two stro;ke engine.

Tony

[gyroblackwell]

Lets see some pictures of the frame ......
Sounds like a good project. Make sure you give yourself lots of room to swing a big prop!

Did'nt know Zenoh made a 2 cyl. OPPOSED CYL. motor ..... go figure !

Here is a pic of the JyroDeer at Mentone-"05"

I WILL finish and fly this one !!

[Jazzenjohn]

oops, I forgot to finish the post... :D

<I think since it's near enough to completion, he'll let it go with confidence it will be completed. Unless unsubstantiated posts like this one light a fire under his butt and he finishes it... JMHP (Just My Humble Prediction).>

[WHY]

Hi Tim

Will have to learn how to post pictures first, btw would it be easier to post if you use a disitial camera and load it into the computer.

[Chuck Roberg]

Tony, click below for a tutorial on how to post pictures on the forum.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/tutorial/graphics.html

Yes, it works best if you have a digital camera and put the digital image on your computer first. Once you have the image on your computer you can use Infanview (see link above) to resize it. Then you can upload the digital image to the forum.

[gyroblackwell]

Digital is the only way I know .

[WHY]

Hey Tim

Just bought a digital camera yesterday so hope to be posting some pictures in the near future.

tony

[WHY]

BTW when I looked up Texas Parasol on the net I got a scam alert on the support group in Misquite Tx hope this is not the case because it sounds like a good group, anyway I confirmed the plans are in public domain and are obtainable through Yahoo group Texas parasol, you h;ave to jo;in th;e gro;u;p but it is free and a great source of info.

tony

[WHY]

BTW when I went to the net and checked Texas Parasol I got a scam alert on the support co;mpany out of Mesquite Tx. hope this is not true as they sound like a good source. Did verify that the plans are in public domain and available thru Yahoo Group Texas Parasol, you must join the group but this is free and it is a great so;urce of info.

tony

[WHY]

sorry for the double post did not see the first one go thru.

tony

[chuter]

Any updates on this ultralight tractor?

[WHY]

Hi Chuter

Am just pluging away on the tractor gyro, "un-building, modifying, and re-building, all at the same time.

Am going back and re-doing a screw up that I did early in the re-building, when I get this done I will be ready to turn it up side down, mount it ridgid on the jig table that I have made for the specific job and then "TRY' to remove the lower longerons and replace them with new ones that have not been butchered up. If I get these replaced successfuly without loosing frame alignment then I will be well on my way to finishing the conversion, if not then all will be a waste and start over!!!!!!!!!!!

Also the gyro will not be ultralight by a country mile, I expect it to be about 450 to 500 empty.

So far am not having much luck finding a rotary engine that is the size and hp that I want (about 80 to 90 hp) so will probably go Subaru EA-81 with Autoflight re-drive.

With temps get cold and windy and the hangar is not heated, work will start to slow down now for the winter, would like to be ready for covering maybe in summer next year.

Tony

[rtfm]

If I get these replaced successfuly without loosing frame alignment then I will be well on my way to finishing the conversion, if not then all will be a waste and start over!!!!!!!!!!!

I know the feeling... :Cry:


So far am not having much luck finding a rotary engine that is the size and hp that I want (about 80 to 90 hp) so will probably go Subaru EA-81 with Autoflight re-drive.
I'm getting my single rotor Renesis in about six week's time. 160lbs, 100HP If you'd like more info on this engine (built in Australia) give me a shout.

Regards,
Duncan

[chuter]

Hi Tony,

Glad to hear you're making progress. I had to start over on things quite a few times.

Actually I was also wanting to hear about the John Deer ultralight, just wondering if he ever got airborne.

[WHY]

Hi Duncan

Yes, I will be very intrested in the Renesis Rotary , Please keep us(me) informed. Is that 160 pounds a firewall foward weight or just with redrive?

Tony

[WHY]

Hi Chuter

Have heard nothing more on the John Deere tractor gyro, what do you think about those gyro's coming out of Russia ??????????????? wow

Tony

[chuter]

Those two Russian gyros I saw look really interesting; some real innovation going on over there.

[magilla]

What Russian Gyros??? Info, please...

[chuter]

Here ya go:
thread (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10325&highlight=russia)

[rtfm]

Hi Duncan

Yes, I will be very intrested in the Renesis Rotary , Please keep us(me) informed. Is that 160 pounds a firewall foward weight or just with redrive?

Tony
Hi,
Came across this post while browsing old threads. The single-rotor engine from Cobra Aviation in Melbourne, Australia weighs 92kg (202lbs) read-to-fly, so I decided not to use it. Have come across another promising rotary, though...
RotaMax Rotary Engine Products
http://www.rotamax.net/products.html

Single rotor = 75HP, 106lbs, w/o redrive.

Sounds promising.

I have also bought a Suzuki K10A engine (68kg, factory turbo, EFI, 100HP - readily available here in the Suzuki Wagon-R) and am having it rebuilt with forged pistons, etc. Also sounds promising.

Regards,
Duncan

[WHY]

Hi Duncan

See my post today under "engines"

Tony