View Full Version : New Bombadier 2-cycle
03-01-2004, 07:52 AM
I just read about some new, quiet, clean, high-efficiency "fuel-injected" :o 2-cycle engines coming out from Bombadier (Rotax?). This showed up in the sports section of the newspaper and was related to outboard boat motors in the 40 to 90hp range with bigger coming next year. Has anyone else seen that? Has anyone had a "preview" of them? Any thoughts about how they would work in gyros?
03-01-2004, 08:30 AM
i have eared only this one!...
03-21-2004, 08:39 PM
Doug, if i were to look at another motor for a gyro, I think I would like to have the Rotax 3 cylinder 4-TEc 155 H.P. 4 cycle engine they use in the new large Sea-doo watercraft. The engines are very light 4cycles, fuel injected and run great. They are set up for closed loop cooling, which is very different from most jetskis. This makes the cooling a easy modification. I talked to the 2nd largest dealer in the NW , and he said not one came back last season with a bad motor! They engine also comes in 185 and 215 hp superchargered versions, but would probably stick to the simple normally aspariated version, and maybe even detune it a little.
The fabrication work would involve a psu, and exhaust mostly. There are going to many of these engines available as time goes on, and they are made to run under full power at 7000RPM for long periods of time, unlike auto engines. I think someone could make a real business fabricating the modification parts to makes these engines work well in gyros. Just remember who gave you the idea, and send me one of the kits!!!
SCOTT HEGER, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
03-21-2004, 08:47 PM
Scott I have been mentioning the new four stroke jet ski engines for over a year now. I think those engines will make great conversions for us when the machines get some time on them and we can buy them used fairly cheap.
Doug, I must have missed this post when you first posted it. The engines that article talks about is the new ECO - TEC outboard engines by Evinrude. Evinrude as we all should know was bought out by Rotax's parent company, Bombardier a year or two ago and there is major upgrades going into the Evinrude and Johnson outboards. The ECO TEC is the newest and greatest, cleaner than the four strokes and yet it is a two stroke. Light and powerful!
03-22-2004, 05:42 AM
Type Four-stroke, three-cylinder Rotax® SOHC
Bore x Stroke 100mm x 63.4mm
Displacement/hp 1494 cc / 155 hp
Compression ratio 10.5:1
Carburetion / Fuel injection Multi-port fuel injection
Lubrication Dry sump, pressure oil system
Cooling Closed-loop cooling system
Fuel type Regular unleaded
In the suzuki post someone said the compression was to high to run pump gas how can this motor run on 87 pump gas? at about the same compression? I think the suzuki can run on pump gas too. But I have to say I will be going the the water craft place to take a look at this motor It has been out for over two years and we should be about to find one now.
03-22-2004, 06:57 AM
there is also very nice four stroke jet ski engines from Honda as well. Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Polaris all also have four stroke jet ski engines, but the polaris is only a 750cc and the other two engines are based on motorcycle engines od around 1000-1200 cc. And these all make their power at much higher Rpm.
03-22-2004, 01:57 PM
Steven, that one in the picture appears to be a V6. I would like to hear more about it also, but don't have any plans to get one.
03-22-2004, 02:33 PM
Have you had any luck finding any of these four stroke ski engines? I called the Honda dealer here and he would not even talk to me without a hull number. I quess they are trying to protect themselves from liability. I was crusing the Yamamha website and they now have a new four stroke sled engine that looks very promising.
03-22-2004, 09:44 PM
Ron, the 4-TEC engines are becoming available. Drunk dummies crash them all the time into each other, fall off trailers, run into shore and rocks etc. I have one of the 4-tec seadoos and am very impressed with the engine, and cant see any major hurtles except the psu and custom exhaust. It has many nice features including 3 individual ignition coils, MFI, even has a great motor mount system already. The engine starts if it is cold or 125 degrees outside on the first few turns, will run at 7000 rpm W.O.T. for half hour straight, and runs on 87pump gas. It is a little hard to see inside the ski, but it appears to have a standard 4 bolt rear housing/PTO like many other rotax motors, which would make sense. DEtune these motors, maybe adapt a rotax "C" box with a 3.0 or so ratio and....hold on....ok, just send me one and ill throw it my SportCopter and let you know the results.
Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
03-22-2004, 10:38 PM
As an ex jetski racer I doubt you would need to detune them for reliabilty, they can be absolutely hammered, and still run like a dream. When I was racing, I would run mine at about 8500RPM, for around half an hour, higher when there was some cavitation. Longdistance races, flat out for nearly 2 hours, never blew one up, then only time I retired was when a spark plug lead came off.
03-23-2004, 03:22 AM
That OHC V6 FI Rotax engine sure looks nice. I would imagine the price tag would be something like the national debt. It would be probably be a replacement proposition for the ancient Lyc's and Continentals, possibly with a bigger price tag.
03-23-2004, 06:53 AM
Yes that engine in the pictures is a VERY expensive V6 four stroke fuel injected overhead cam etc.. etc... Aero engine Rotax is going to market to CERTIFIED airplane manufactors only. Later down the road it will be offered to the public for use in experimentals. It will be very expensive, over 30 grand for sure.
Mike I haven't the machines or know how to do my own conversion, so I haven't bothered to look for a nice used jet ski engine myself. I would say this, compared to what a Rotax or Jabiru or even a Sub 4 type engine costs to get your hands on - all around 100 horsepower - You could buy a one year old used Sea Doo or Honda ski with less than 50 hours run time on it, yank out the engine and do the conversion and have still less money in it than buying any of the above engines and have more power.
Then yor left with a nice like new Hull with no motor and that could still be sold for a few grand to some knuckle head who crashed his into the rocks and cracked open his hull.
All of these four stroke jet skies come complete for well under 10 grand. used I am sure a low time one or two year old Sea Doo with the 4tec engine could be bought for 6500-7000$, the hull minus engine should still be worth 2000$ Or engine to buy a nice Rotax C box with Clutch and a Warp drive prop!!!
03-23-2004, 02:27 PM
That's a good idea. You could then retain that hull number for future parts ordering. I like the way you think. I'll pass that idea on to dad.
03-23-2004, 06:04 PM
So many powerplants & so few people actually trying to use them. I'M not gonna try it, YOU try it. Let me know how it works out!
Somebody try it!!!!!
Hey let's get Dick Degraw or Don Parham, They'll make it work!
03-24-2004, 08:33 AM
It is not that I'm afraid the 4-TEC engine will blow, they are made to run long periods at W.O.T.. The Rotax "C" box on the other hand was not designed for that much H.P. , and thats why I would be concerned about detuning the power.
Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
03-24-2004, 01:33 PM
Scott, put the 110hp Hirth gearbox on it. I have done over 400 hours with a Hirth matched to the 130hp ej-22 on Hybrid. Most of this was dual.
The Hirth gears they tell me are 50% wider than the Rotax and the 2.25 to 1 ratio is better suited to keeping the thrust line down. You can use a 68" prop. With the Rotax you can only get the 2.62 to 1 ratio and really have to have a min 72" prop.
Our mustering guys all seem to use the Rotax and that is due, I believe, to the fact that the manufactures fit the Rotax box. I believe that you have to rebuild the Rotax every 100 hours to ensure no failures.
Tim/Mceagle has a lot of experience with the Rotax box; maybe Tim will pop in with his experience with dozens of Rotax boxes.
The only reason I went for the Hirth was the redrive ratio, but now I am so thrilled that I did. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that it is a far superior box.
03-24-2004, 10:38 PM
Paul great suggestion about Hirth, but I question the gear ratio. These motors make H.P around 6000 and red line near 7000 rpm. Wouldnt a ratio closer to 3.0 be in line?
I was wondering from your previous post about guys using rotax boxes on subaru engines, and how they held together. Well apparently not very well, if you have to work on them every 100 hours.
Any other gear box suggestions to handle 150 HP?
Scott heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
03-25-2004, 12:52 AM
It might pay you to check out the new Autoflight range of reduction gearboxes, they have a unit that is suitable to handle up to 300 hp.
I have seen the build quality, very nice indeed.
Yes Neil is a friend of mine but I don't think there would be any problems with the unit. They are properly (conservatively) designed for the job.
Thanks, Gordon Gibson.
03-25-2004, 01:33 AM
Yes Scott the Autoflight. I agree with the ratio when they spin that quick. Never use the exact 3.0 to 1 ratio as the harmonics are very sever without the "hunting tooth" as they call it.
Hirth have something close I think, without being an exact ratio, where the same teeth touch the same teeth on the drive shaft every 3 revolutions.
03-25-2004, 12:08 PM
Yes have a look at www.autoflight.co.nz , the universal box was designed just for this application with the choice of a ratio of 2.91:1. also available are 2.47:1 and 2.21:1 .
An adaptor plate would be very simple to build, these plates are available from Autoflight!
03-25-2004, 06:35 PM
Hi Neil, That is such a nice looking unit. You should be very proud. Thank You, Vance
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