What Do You Want From the PRA?

[Dean_Dolph]

There has been several threads and many posts/words in the last year or so where it is highlighted that a PRA member doesn't get anything but the magazine for the dues. The fact that there is more benefits than just the magazine has been stated in the replies. Be that as it may, I have a question for all of you that care.

Just what do you want the PRA to provide you? What are your needs?

Don't feel constrained by the fact that at the present it is recognized that the PRA doesn't have financial resources to provide much. Think of this as a brainstorming session where nothing is thought of as being impossible. Lets find out what all of us want. We'll worry about finding ways to get what we want after we have a list.

Remember, anything goes and no negative responses that say that can't be done, that is impossible or that will never be done. And no saying 'I wouldn't support that' because the intent isn't to lay out a action plan but instead to find out what we would like an action plan to incorporate.

If there is little or no discussion in this thread then it can mean several things ranging from 'I'm satisfied' to I've given up hoping for better times'. But I'm hoping there will be a lot of input that will give the BOD an idea of the direction the members want to go. By the way you don't have to be a PRA member to participate in this thread (as if you would let that stop you!) so Heron feel free to join in.:D

[bogman]

Hello Dean, I really enjoyed meeting you in Gonzales and am glad you ask this question.

To me it seems that the major hurtle to growing this sport is the availability of training. A lot of people just don't have the time to take off and go get training at some distant location.

As long as we're making pie in the sky wish lists here, my wish is that the PRA had a full time instructor on staff that would travel to your location to train members. And that the hourly rate would be limited to $125.00 per hour.

An ad in the local paper announcing local training might draw out other hopefuls to make the trip more worthwhile for the visiting instructor.

Hope you make it to Jennings the 21st. to enjoy the crawfish and some flying. :D

[Jazzenjohn]

If I were to make one simple, relatively easy to implement suggestion for the PRA it would be this.
Several people have sent e-mails and other inquirys to the PRA asking for Pamphlets, old issues of Rotorcraft Magazine, and possibly DVD's, to give out at events. My suggestion would be for those requests to be relayed to this forum so our members could donate time, funds, paper, printing, burning or other help to have that happen in a timely manner and without incurring any additional expense for the PRA.
What do you think?

[donshoebridge]

Good topic Dean!

Not considering the cost, here's my input...

1) Full-time representation at the FAA level, just like the EAA and AOPA currently have. The gyro community needs someone that can go to bat for us when the need arises, specifically when it comes to FAA rule making, but not limited to this one thing either. There are a few people that currently do this for us, Greg Gremminger is the first person that comes to mind. But he doesn't receive any compensation for his efforts. I’d like to see someone in a full-time, paid position that has a vested interest in gyro aviation act as a liaison between the gyro community and everyone else in the world. Call it PR if you want, but I think this position would be much more than that.

2) Gyro insurance! Need I say more?!?! Knowing that stock holders make up the financial base for insurance companies, maybe the PRA should consider changing from a non-profit, to a full incorporation, complete with stock holders and a Wall Street symbol. Let the stock market help out the gyro community for a change. I know… This idea is really out there in left field. But hey, you asked.

3) To add to what Miles stated earlier, training. But I think the $125/hr limit is too high. Typical training is already up to that level now. But when you look at fixed wing training, if can be as much as 1/2 that of gyro training. Why is that? Pride! Insurance! Liability! What? A new Cessna 152 costs more than $100,000! A new SparrowHawk isn’t even close to that. Yet, gyro training is more expensive than fixed wing training. It’s not the cost of a hangar because gyro’s take up less space. Affordable gyro training is a MUST! If there aren’t any new gyro pilots coming alone, then what! I’d like to see the gyro manufactures raise their gyro prices by $5,000 (or so) and offer free flight training to people that make a new gyro purchase. Some people will need it, and others will not. In any case, the extra money is already there and should more than offset the overall cost of free training.

Just some more of my dumb ideas. :rolleyes:

[pwendell]

I would like to see the PRA's website become the premier source for accurate gyro information. This forum is great, but anyone can post anything here. The PRA site would offer the opportunity to present technically correct information about gyroplane aerodynamics, construction, instruction, etc. It should have links to many of the excellent technical articles printed in Rotorcraft. It should, perhaps, contain a simplified tutorial on gyroplane stability, as well as training requirements, sample syllabi, strategies for long distance training, etc. It should provide guides to building, registering, and flight testing gyroplanes. It should also contain the best, most complete and interesting, gyro Classfieds on the web. In other words, it should become a one stop shop for all things gyro. In this world, the electronic face of the organization is the one most people will see first and most often.

I think the organization also needs to be more politically active. In the post 911 world there have been, and will continue to be, lots of attempts to restrict small aircraft. So far gyroplanes have not been singled out, so the AOPA and EAA have been fighting the battles. That could change. It is good idea for the PRA to work on developing closer ties with these organizations in case we need their expertise and numbers.

I also think it's a good idea to expand member benefits. For example, we could get free classifieds on the new website and maybe a free email account (cheap and easy) -- imagine 'gyroron@pra.org'--, small manufacurers discounts, and, perhaps, new gyro students should be offered a free six month membership, like the AOPA.

[KenSandyEggo]

That 152 is insured for instruction fairly inexpensively and the FBO probably has several on line. Just means a little tighter scheduling while the bent one is being repaired. There is no gyro insurance available for CFIs as far as I know, especially hull damage. If there is, it ain't cheap. His gyro gets bent, he's out of business until he rebuilds it all at his own expense. You're comparing apples to kumquats or something.

Raise their prices by $5,000 and then offer "free" training? Sounds like it costs $5,000 to me. It'd be cheaper to pay a CFI $125 per hour.

[bartc150]

If I were to make one simple, relatively easy to implement suggestion for the PRA it would be this.
Several people have sent e-mails and other inquirys to the PRA asking for Pamphlets, old issues of Rotorcraft Magazine, and possibly DVD's, to give out at events. My suggestion would be for those requests to be relayed to this forum so our members could donate time, funds, paper, printing, burning or other help to have that happen in a timely manner and without incurring any additional expense for the PRA.
What do you think?



I think this is a great idea. Twice I've been to Bensen Days trying to get a peek at a Rotorcraft magazine. There were plenty of EAA mags but I didn't see one article about gyros in there. It seems there is some sort of agreement among members to keep the mag among themselves. When people go to a gyro fly-in they want to see gyro related stuff. This didn't keep me from joining the PRA, but it might keep someone else from doing it. Just a thought from a new member.

[Dean_Dolph]

That 152 is insured for instruction fairly inexpensively and the FBO probably has several on line. Just means a little tighter scheduling while the bent one is being repaired. There is no gyro insurance available for CFIs as far as I know, especially hull damage. If there is, it ain't cheap. His gyro gets bent, he's out of business until he rebuilds it all at his own expense. You're comparing apples to kumquats or something.

Raise their prices by $5,000 and then offer "free" training? Sounds like it costs $5,000 to me. It'd be cheaper to pay a CFI $125 per hour.Just a reminder to everyone, this isn't a discussion thread! This is a idea/thought generation thread. Specifics can be discussed later. Let see if we can keep our focus for once. I know its hard because I get the same urges (no not that one!) to jump in and present an opinion/opposing view.

[GyroRon]

Not that I have been to Mentone, but from what I gather it costs more to attend and or camp there than the Other Popular gyro fly ins. I would like to see a PRA member discounted rate.

[barnstorm2]

Not that I have been to Mentone, but from what I gather it costs more to attend and or camp there than the Other Popular gyro fly ins. I would like to see a PRA member discounted rate.

while that sounds good, just how many will be camping that are not pra members?

The convention is a needed moneymaker.

I don't camp much and I get a hotel room for Mentone so I don't know what the price is or should be. If it is too expensive than that is something worth evaluating.

[devon532]

Aside from aviation directly, it seems that a group of 2800 "potential customers" would be attractive to any business. Create alliances or partnerships with some organizations maybe for discounts. Insurance companies, hotels, Rental Cars, national franchises like Lee Myles, Midas Muffler, Applebees, entitle us to internet shopping discounts with partnered sites, etc. Don't have the particulars down, but you get the idea. Gee, maybe a PRA "coupon book" or PRA credit card where the organization gets a small percentage of all of our purchases. And God knows we all make credit card purchases!!! You know, I just thought of the credit card thing 30 seconds ago, but out of everything that's probably the easiest thing to set up.. and potentially the most profitable.... monthly cash stream. Hmmmm......

Oh, yes, I DO realize that SOMEBODY has to go out and actually make these deals, but that's another issue.

[GyroRon]

while that sounds good, just how many will be camping that are not pra members?

The convention is a needed moneymaker.

I don't camp much and I get a hotel room for Mentone so I don't know what the price is or should be. If it is too expensive than that is something worth evaluating.

Rotors over Carolina is PRA chapter 13's ONLY money maker. Our members dues don't even cover the cost of the newletter.

I am sure PRA chapter 26's MAIN money maker is Bensen Days.

Both clubs charge less for registation and less for camping if the prices I seem to remember Mentone charges are correct.

So by what your saying, perhaps our two chapters should rethink our fees and charge more?

You also said something about how many people camping or attending won't be PRA members.... Well that could open the discussion from Hades right there, since many people - me being one of them - think it would be much more fruitfull to the PRA if the two major fly ins - Bensen Days and Mentone - were held some other time of the year where it could draw more people. Next year I am skipping the week at Bensen Days so I can go to Sun n Fun. If the fly ins were either the same week or further apart than one week I could do both. If Mentone was held a month before or after Oskosh, I believe there would be far more potential for the younger working joes like me and you to venture out to BFE to check out gyros.

[Kevin_Richey]

Aside from aviation directly, it seems that a group of 2800 "potential customers" would be attractive to any business. Create alliances or partnerships with some organizations maybe for discounts. Insurance companies, hotels, Rental Cars, national franchises like Lee Myles, Midas Muffler, Applebees, entitle us to internet shopping discounts with partnered sites, etc. Don't have the particulars down, but you get the idea. Gee, maybe a PRA "coupon book" or PRA credit card where the organization gets a small percentage of all of our purchases. And God knows we all make credit card purchases!!! You know, I just thought of the credit card thing 30 seconds ago, but out of everything that's probably the easiest thing to set up.. and potentially the most profitable.... monthly cash stream. Hmmmm......

Oh, yes, I DO realize that SOMEBODY has to go out and actually make these deals, but that's another issue.

I was going to add the bit about the credit card for affinity groups when I saw this already posted..

Someone suggested this a few years ago, but I don't know if anyone ran with it.

Makes a lot of sense (all the above suggestions) re: discount purchasing and a PRA credit card underwritten by one of the CC companies, with a percentage of the purchases going to the PRA as a fundraiser!!!!!!!

Those would add extra incentive to PRA members to join and renew.

[barnstorm2]

Rotors over Carolina is PRA chapter 13's ONLY money maker. Our members dues don't even cover the cost of the newletter.

I am sure PRA chapter 26's MAIN money maker is Bensen Days.

Both clubs charge less for registation and less for camping if the prices I seem to remember Mentone charges are correct.

So by what your saying, perhaps our two chapters should rethink our fees and charge more?

You also said something about how many people camping or attending won't be PRA members.... Well that could open the discussion from Hades right there, since many people - me being one of them - think it would be much more fruitfull to the PRA if the two major fly ins - Bensen Days and Mentone - were held some other time of the year where it could draw more people. Next year I am skipping the week at Bensen Days so I can go to Sun n Fun. If the fly ins were either the same week or further apart than one week I could do both. If Mentone was held a month before or after Oskosh, I believe there would be far more potential for the younger working joes like me and you to venture out to BFE to check out gyros.


I don't know how the date of the fly-in affects the desired cost of camping, it seem like a completly differn't topic to me. :confused:

Ron, just how crushing is the cost of camping at Mentone? How big of a deal is this? :confused:

The EAA charges upward of $18 Per NIGHT. And for some of the campgrounds you MUST be an EAA MEMBER to even camp there.

You said about the high cost of traveling to training:
if someone wants to fly and can afford to fly, they can afford to travel to a instructor and get the lessons they need.

Perhaps we should apply this to conventions as well? ;)

Maybe we should say: "if you can afford to be one of the few the proud, the gyro pilots you can fork out a couple of extra bucks for camping to support our PRA"

And you don't even have to be a PRA member to camp! :eek:

I have not been to your chapters' fly-in but fees would be based on supply, demand and kind of fly-in I assume. Perhaps they should raise or lower the fees. :confused:

I wish I could take 4 weeks off a year just to go to fly-ins. I can barely manage 1 week a year and I am not even taking training anymore! :eek:

[StanFoster]

Dean: Good thread... I dont want anything from the PRA except to be just a small part of it. I feel fortunate there is such an organization....and it takes guys like you , Tom Milton,..and the other hard working members that dedicate so much of their time so the rest of us have something to enjoy.

I personally am very satisfied...and cant even come close to utter any complaint when I have done so little to help out.

So...guys and gals....you know who you are that put in all this dedicated effort for the majority of us to just enjoy. I personally thank you all for your efforts.

Stan

[Heron]

. . .and I like the PRA to be all it can be!
Then I will join! (kidding I will join before that) :D
Heron (just watching the pot boiling) :D :D

[donshoebridge]

One of the big problems that I see with the convention is that many people DON'T want to make it more open to the casual aviation buff - they want to keep it strictly for the PRA members. So to look at the Convention as a money maker for the PRA, at this point all the Convention is nothing more than another "tap" on the membership. The Convention MUST be promoted to the "other than gyro" crowd if we expect the Convention to become more of a success. So what if the "other than" crowd only comes one year. At least it's something. It sure beats sticking your head in the sand and expecting the membership to step up like they always have in the past and dole out X-number of dollars for the Convention, and X-number of dollars for camping, etc. I'm fully in agreement with Ron about a reduced entrance cost and camping cost for PRA members. For those people that are not PRA members that do attend the Convention, it would be more of an incentive to join the PRA. But why stop there... Discounts across the board - gift shop items, back issues of Rotorcraft magazine, concessions, etc. A PRA membership should get you more than just some damn magazine!

[GyroRon]

Thanks for the support Don. I am beginning to feel that I need to Zip my mouth and just smile and wave when it comes to anything concerning the PRA.

[Heron]

Can't beat them . . .join them?
H.

[barnstorm2]

While adding to the list of 'things you get with your PRA membership' is a good idea, it can also hurt the PRA if not done smartly.

I have spent quite a number of years working for a company that did marketing and marketing planning.

If we reduce fees for things that are part of 'bread and butter' income for the PRA and those reductions do not create an increase in PRA membership or sales of said items all we have done is taken a loss. Shot ourselves in the foot.

We need to ask ourselves: "Will reducing the cost of X increase the percieved value of membership so much that we will generate X more memberships"

Don and Ron. Can you honestly tell me that reducing the camping fees is going to result in more membership and not a just a drop in income for our small and exclusive org?

I just don't see it.

If you want to add percieved value to the PRA membership as your personal goal to help the PRA I would suggest:

1 canvasing manufacturers to see if they will give reduced prices on equipment, services, demo rides whatever, to PRA members.

2 Canvasing hotels and local biz to give PRA members comming into town discounts.

3 Give a camping (or whatever) discount to any PRA member who brings a friend that rents a camping space and has never been to Mentone before

4 Take these discounts and publish them in a flyer, pubish the flyer in Rotorcraft and hand them out at admissions.

It takes work to increase funds, not just making cheapscates happy. IMHO

Instead of sitting around saying "I want this and that and this with my membership" if some one actually got off their butts and worked to add features and dicounts to the PRA membership that would result in a net positive change for members and the PRA.

So lets say we reduce camping by $10 if you are a PRA member. Net loss to Mentone Convention say $300. That means we will need 8 new members to make up the difference. Do you really think we will get 8 new memberships from people thinking "hey that camping is cheap, I want a PRA membership"?

Meanwhile, the PRA looses $300, and the SUV driving, pilots who spend X on the gyro hobby and lots more on toys and bikes and bling are feeling better about their PRA membership thanks to saving $10?

Now if the camping fees at Mentone are outrageouly high compaired to other events and so high that people are not attending the convention because of the high cost of camping that is a differn't issue all to gether.

However, though I found that EAA wants $18 and up a night and in many cases requires an EAA membership to camp nowone has come up with a price for this critically important issue.. how much does camping cost at Mentone??

It's my day to be crabby.. :D

Ok, big idea guys, who is going to volenteer to get out the phone book and start calling biz owners around mentone to get discounts on hotels, food, services and such for PRA members comming to the convention? Put your labor where your mouth is and sign up here!

I would like to know if the volenteers who clean the bathrooms at Mentone think we are charging too much.

Maybe someone who owns their own lawn mowing biz could contact the PRA and see how much or if they are paying for the campground to be cut. Then they could volenteer to cut it themselves. Thus, a reduction in expenses, and savings could be passed down to the campers.

<insert here all the posts about givers/takers ask not what the PRA can do for you but....>

[barnstorm2]

Thanks for the support Don. I am beginning to feel that I need to Zip my mouth and just smile and wave when it comes to anything concerning the PRA.

Ron, I try to ask myself before I start complaining about something is, do I have a solution or a constructive way to pose this question? If this has been discussed before do I have a new relevent solution to the problem?

Vance says it better than I do.

We should be putting our heads and hands together to find ways to make PRA membership better for everyone and positive things to help. Not just looking for ways to knock.

If you were to say: "Camping is a big issue for me, and if we reduce the fees by X we will make Y back because of all the happy campers". Then I think things would get a much more positive reaction.

IMHO.

[Dean_Dolph]

Reminder #2, this is not a thread to discuss the merits or means of implementing ideas. This thread is to collect info on what people want the PRA to provide them. Personnally I'm particularly interested in what the people that don't post often want. So don't be shy, especially you lurkers, make this your first post.

The initial response to this thread made me think that we were going to get a lot of responses and input. I'm hoping that we still will. Then again maybe what has been posted speaks for everyone. Even if that is the case, it would be valuable to see who supports what.

Again, please stay away from discussing the merits of the what people want or how to provide them. This thread isn't about PRA promotion but what each of us wants the PRA to provide us as individuals.

[GyroRon]

Tim you just blow me away with your attitude guy! It is not about exactly how much the fees are, although they are higher than the other gyro events. Sure if we can afford a gyro and afford to pay well over 2 dollars a gallon in gasoline to get to Mentone what is the big deal if the registration and camping fees end up costing you 20 bucks more than the fees paid to attend ROC or Bensen Days.....

But what a easy way to make the PRA members feel like they are getting something for their being a member, without it costing really anything. Even if the PRA has to charge more overall for fees just to allow the discounted rate to be the same as before, people will still be happier because they got a discount.

You bring up Oshkosh and or Sun n Fun. Hello Tim.... Earth to Tim.... It is very common knowledge that EAA members get a discounted rate for admission and for camping. The folks that help out with the fly-in get in and get to camp for free as well.

Also don't forget that each year less and less people are going to the EAA fly ins due to the high fees being charged. but according to your logic, the guys going to those fly ins can afford even bigger fancier cars and SUVs and alot of them can afford to fly airplanes that cost 10-100 times more than our cheap little gyrocopters, so why in the world should they cry about 3 dollars for a bottled water, or 7 dollars for a plain hamburger? I mean what a bunch of cheapskates right?

As for getting discounted rates on Hotels, why? I don't use hotels, I like to camp on the field and that is what I am concerned with. You do the hotel thing so why don't you go get the discounted rates..... Oh I forgot, you are rich and loaded, you fly a gyro and drive some type of big expensive gas guzzling vehicle so you don't need a discount! ? No ???

It sounds like what we all should do since we all got more money than we should have, is we should just whip out our checkbooks and pay them monthly... hmmm maybe 20 bucks a month? And why were at it Tim, why not allow the PRA to cancel the magazine so the 40 dollars a year can go for other more important things. Weren't you one of the people who said you didn't care if you got a magazine or not? If that is true, help out the PRA man! Write Pam and tell her to mark you off the magazine list. That will save the PRA about 30-40 bucks a year!

Me being grumpy this morning as well.. :) Now to make it better, I will be leaving shortly to go flying. Always works to make things better.

[barnstorm2]

Dean,

I apologise. I re-read the org post and I did go out of bounds responding to Rons reply.

I would like to see the PRA list on the website and the magazine a list of open positions for volenteers and for service donations.

I would also like to see a list of "credits" or PRA services brought to you by: kind of thing to show some respect and ack for PRA workers.

I would like to see a story (as a yearly feature) in Rotorcraft listing all of the chapters, the chapter presidents, and a bio of each chapter and what they have done to grow and better themselves and the PRA as a whole so this knowledge could be shared with everyone.

I would like to see Rotorcraft offer FREE ads to insurance companys willing to insure gyros.

[barnstorm2]

But what a easy way to make the PRA members feel like they are getting something for their being a member, without it costing really anything.

Weren't you one of the people who said you didn't care if you got a magazine or not? .

Ron,

I apologize for my attitude, I was out of line.

Please understand that my point is that I think you are wrong about: "But what a easy way to make the PRA members feel like they are getting something for their being a member, without it costing really anything. "

I think that WOULD cost us. We have to PAY for port-o-lets, grass cutting, insurance, support for cleanup volenteers, Electric and more. The resulting good feeling I doubt would make up for the difference.

I do care about the magazine. What I said was I would still be a PRA member if there were no mag.

Adding value to the PRA membership is a good and great thing but you don't get much for nothiing right?

This is a good thread, I am sorry I came in like a bull in a china shop :(

[Vance]

I like the idea of 2,800 people with a similar interest to mine.

I like the Idea of someone coordinating interaction with the FAA and the EAA to the benifit of rotorcraft.

I like to be able to find out about Gyroplane activities around the country.

I like knowing that there is at least one airport that welcomes rotorcraft.

I like to go to flyins and meet the amazing people who have built and fly such wonderfull aircraft.

I like to be able to get in touch with people who can help me understand how something with a rotor works.

I like to get a magazine that entertains and educates me about rotorcraft.

I like to be around people who work tirelessly to promote the fun of flying with a rotor.

I like to know what gyroplane kits are available and who makes them.

I like to know where to get instruction.

I like someone to manage the training exemption for expermental rotorcraft.

I like it that someone is trying to make a sport that I love grow.

I like it that these hard working someones are part of an orginazation that is consistant and has my saftey in mind.

I like a place to buy clothing that lets other people know that I am part of such an elite and interesting group.

I like having somewhere to send people who want to learn about Autogiros.

I like that the PRA does more for me than I realize.

Dean, These are the things I particularly like and if any of them are done even better, than I believe that the PRA would mean even more to me.

Thank you, Vance

[quadrirotor]

To sum up: i don't care money, what i want is aims and guidelines!...Challenges to define better gyro with the info going down...ex: the rhyno-gyro won the price of the best jump take-off gyro but all the infos did not go down to individuals to know how to do!...why must i pay for that?...etc...The other gyro was OK too but the technical info is lost!...etc...

[barnstorm2]

Good point Andre!

The payoff from the contest never materized!

I would like so see pubished in Rotorcraft and on the Web site a guide made by instructors on how to get gyro training if no trainers are near you. Such as, do this in fixed wing training then travel to this trainer who has good weather and accomidations.

I would like to see 3 more airports owned by the PRA each in a differn't part of the country, where each can provide safe haven, income and conventions.

I would like to see the PRA investigate ways to grow the PRA internationally.

I would like to see more contests!

[Vance]

Sorry I left something out that, in my opinion, would solve a lot of the challenges that seem to arise from time to time.

At the club meetings, in the successful clubs I have belonged to, we always had a treasures report. It seemed to answer a lot of questions before they became problems.

I am not sure that an anual report has as much value as quarterly or even monthly. It would give me something to come back at the detractors with. This would have value for me. Thank you, Vance

[Heron]

Vance got it right, Bravo!
Heron

[Timchick]

I agree with Peter. We live in an electronic age and the PRA website should be a one stop shop for gyro information. If all the members had bumper stickers with PRA.org on them more people would start discovering our sport.

[dapartlow]

Dean, what about making the Mag an E-Mag and open up subcripitons to all who " surf the web" PRA members would still get free access to the site and the subcribers would hepl defer costs and more of the dues could go for other projects. it seems to me 2800 subcribers should not have a mag to them selfs it should just be a news letter.

[GyroRon]

Tim, I am sorry for jumping back at your post. :)

Let me try this again.... PRA charges X dollars a day for admission and X a day for camping. Whatever these rates have been, They COULD RAISE them by 5 bucks each and allow the PRA Card carrying members who attend a 5 dollar discount. How does this cost the PRA? How could this not bring at least the same amount of money? I know it is a cheesy way to make members feel like they are getting something, but I believe it would work. Everyone I know likes a discount!

[barnstorm2]

Ron,

That would certainly work. I had not thought about it that way.

[Vance]

In my business we called that a truckers discount. I am not wure why.

[Hognose]

2) Gyro insurance!

Now available. Thanks to the efforts of two members of this forum actually.

maybe the PRA should consider changing from a non-profit, to a full incorporation, complete with stock holders and a Wall Street symbol.

Yep, the idea is out in left field. Look, what would capitalize PRA, Inc.? Right now there is a very low number of members and a relatively low membership fee. AOPA can do all kinds of wazoo stuff in part because they have four hundred thousand members. That's a 4 followed by five zeroes.

But I think the $125/hr limit is too high. Typical training is already up to that level now.

Again, where is the money going to come from to subsidize discount training???

But when you look at fixed wing training, if can be as much as 1/2 that of gyro training.

At my school you will rent a 172 for $103 to $108 wet and then pay for the instructor (which I'm blanking on, but I believe it's $35. Or maybe it's $50).

A new Cessna 152 costs more than $100,000! There hasn't been a new 152 since the early 1980s, and the tooling was scrapped in 1986; there will never be another. A new 172 -- a very different kettle of fish from the 172Ns that I have on the line -- sold for $125k in 1997 but was already knocking on the doors of $200k in 1999. And that's where it is today: The 172R, $199,750; 172S, $229,750. More for the Garmin 1000-equipped planes. Them's the cheap Cessnas. A Turbo 206 is nearly a half million!

Yet, gyro training is more expensive than fixed wing training.

Low demand, low supply, scarcity drives the price up but not enough to bring a wave of new instructors in. The problem is, the scarcity of instructors and scarcity of students create a feedback loop. A lose-lose deal for everybody.

I’d like to see the gyro manufactures raise their gyro prices by $5,000 (or so) and offer free flight training to people that make a new gyro purchase.

That's a good idea. A VERY good idea -- Rotorway has a school for its kit helicopter builders and it is a profit center for the company. (I have heard some bad things about it as a helicopter school -- even grads have told me they'd rather have gone to Adventures or another helo 141 school in retrospect). But the concept of an "official" school is a good idea. Of course, AAI/Groen does that.

RAF tried hard to build a network of instructors, too.

cheers

-=K=-

[Jazzenjohn]

I like Ron's idea about raising the camping fees for non PRA people. It provides some value to existing members, and I don't think it's very likely to be something thats going to be a dealbreaker for a non PRA person. If they're going to drive hundreds of miles and possibly tow a trailer etc. etc. they aren't going to blow off the whole thing if it costs a couple dollars more a night. They also should contribute something extra because the PRA itself (from members dues) contributes to it, and it's little things like that that sometimes convince people that are on the fence to go ahead and join.
As a matter of fact, when I first joined the EAA many years ago, it was at Oshkosh and they did the same thing.

[KenSandyEggo]

RAF once HAD a large network of dealers/instructors. They alienated all but what....2 or 3?

[donshoebridge]

Kevin,

1) Insurance - I'd like to see more than just one source. Competition.

2) PRA, Inc. - My thought there was that when a new company symbol hits the market, there's usually a huge influx of investors that are trying to get in at the ground level. What happens after that, I couldn't tell you, it's just an idea. I wasn't thinking that the current PRA membership would be the stock holders either.

3) Training - The point that I was trying to make was that gyro's don't cost $200,000, and gyro's don't have the same high costs that a certified airplane would; annual inspections, fuel (depending), engine parts, etc. So with that in mind, I can't see where instruction at Huntington (HHG) would cost $95/hr (wet with instructor) and typical gyro instruction would be $120/hr. That's why I mentioned "pride" and "insurance" as some of the pricing factors for gyro instruction. I think the $120/hr has pushed a lot of people away, not to mention the distance to the nearest instructor.

4) PRA Convention Pricing - As Ron has detailed, raise the prices for non-members and leave everything else the same. To expand on this, there MUST be a PRA membership booth right at the front gate of the Convention! But also keep in mind that over the last 2 years, the Convention has singed up 3 (I think) new members. Last year at Oshkosh, the PRA singed up 6 new members. Question to all: Should the Convention be a special convention just for PRA members? Or should it be open to all? This have been a real sticking point to many people.

[bogman]

Or perhaps instead of going public, can a non-profit org. own a business to generate revenue to provide services for members? If so, 2500 members putting up $300.00 each would buy a nice profitable Burger King for a continuous revenue stream.

[barnstorm2]

Question to all: Should the Convention be a special convention just for PRA members? Or should it be open to all? This have been a real sticking point to many people.

I know we have discussed this issue on a number of threads.

If we want Mentone to be a recruitment tool then we will have to $advertise$ and likely move the convention to a more popular(and urbain/busy) place.

Doing this reduces the experience for those already into gyros.

I think the national conventions are for the rallying of the converted, not for advertizing. IMHO.

I am all for a a 'fly-in' or other simular event that is primarily for the purpose of bringing gyros to the general avation or general public. For this to be practical though, I feel strongly that it will need to be located in a populated area piggy-backed with another non-gyro event such as a general airshow, motorcycle ralley, R/C fly-in, XTreem sports event or simular.

[barnstorm2]

I want the PRA to have such a dedicated, loyal, unique, inspired, membership with active pilots and volunteers at the ready with support, time, resources and interest for the greater good that the EAA, AOPA, AFC, USUA and the local bible-thumping evangelist look to us as a model for programs and member support. (instead of the other way around)

I want the novice pilot looking to get into Sport Pilot or Ultralights to be just as informed about gyroplanes and their advantages in cost, built time, wind handling and safety as they are about these and other issues with Trikes, PPCs, PPGs, FWULs, and the like.

[woodsher]

Tim
To your past post.
I would like to know if the volenteers who clean the bathrooms at Mentone think we are charging too much.
Well you asked for the person that cleans the bathrooms so here he is!! :D
By the way I don't think your getting too worked up in your words!

I happen to be one of few that clean the bathrooms,Help cut the lawn,and generally help out at metone during the year. Along with a few other"Volenteers"
I paid full price for camping and entry fees at the convention for myself and my family,I also helped out along with my girls during the convention and Not once did we complain. As a matter of fact it was fun to help out. :eek:
There were a Few others that helped out and not once did I hear anyone of them complain about why they were doing volenteer work. And I know that they just like myself paid FULL PRICE for there camping and entry fee.And I am sure that it is that way for volenteers at other rotorcraft events.
All I hear on here is what the PRA is doing for me,Me,ME.
What is everyone doing for PRA? I know a few members that put alot of there own "personal money" and hard "VOLENTEER WORK" into PRA besides DUES Just to help keep PRA afloat. If everyone could just understand "Its not about the money,Its not about how much recogintion We get. Its that we care and believe in PRA and all of the members so that we can give Rotorcraft That we love Represintation in General aviation and have fly-ins such as Benson Days,Roc and others,And the PRA convention to all get together and enjoy and share one anothers stories,Learning experiances and give general public that may be interested in flying a more and exciting alternative to higher priced aviation. Thus its an organization that helps us that love Rotorcraft have some say in Representating us in the aviation community so we can fly with less restrictions. I gladly spend $41.00 a year for PRA to just have that.One point,Sport piliot and new ultralight weight rules and so on.Thanks GREG and others for your hard work on this issue. IT's NOT just for the Magazine! And if it is the Magazine then maybe your in the wrong place!
By the way I do alot of camping around the US. and if you think $18.00 is to high for camping with electric hook up try getting that price at a private or state campground. Expect $23.00 to $28.00 a night.
By the way if you check out your preregistration form in the magazine. It shows that you do get a speacial rate to preregister and only PRA members get this magazine and which means you already have a chance to get a discount.That includes entrance fee!!!!
Lets stop talking about it and get out and help promote PRA.
I today have 3 prospective people who are interested in joining. I am bringing them to chapter meetings and local fly-in's to let them get a taste of what our organization is about. Hopefully they can see what I see in PRA.
Sorry if I stepped on anyones toes here!
Thank You
Brian Sherwood
And By the WAy Stan and everyone else. KEEP THOSE PICTURES COMING !!!!!!!!! Love those pic's.

[dapartlow]

I would like to see the PRA follow its by-laws
III. PURPOSE
1. To encourage, aid and engage in scientific research for the improvement and better understanding of the art of flying by an individual and the science of vertical lift aeronautics.

2. To foster, promote, and popularize education in rotorcraft among it's members and the general public.

3. To establish and maintain a rotorcraft museum and air education center to contain exhibits of historical and scientific interest.

The first would open Mag subcriptions to the public as said in #2 But really to do it right the PRA should just bite the bullet and join the EAA then the Magazine advertisers could put their ads in Magazines that reach the general public not just the few in "the old boys PRA" I am a member of both and new to gyro flying but I have found the EAA just as helpfull.

[Whirlydog]

I would like to see the calander issue brought back.

Maybe you could return it by eliminating the issue where they list all the member?

[barnstorm2]

Or perhaps instead of going public, can a non-profit org. own a business to generate revenue to provide services for members? If so, 2500 members putting up $300.00 each would buy a nice profitable Burger King for a continuous revenue stream.

Hosting fly-ins, events, rentals, gas and food from an airport can generate good $ too.

4 airports even more so.

We could make a really cool gyro FunMeal.

[devon532]

I've seen several references in this thread re: gyro vs. fixed wing training costs. I was at the airport last Sunday for dual gyro training and we had to get a sectional map, so as we were walking to the fixed wing Flight school I was mentioning how I had just found an old bill from Monmouth Flight School where I had taken my fixed wing training in 1975. I had flown for 50 minutes. The aircraft (Cessna 150) was $18.75 and the instructor was $6.75 (give or take a few pennies - I'm doing this from memory).

So when we walked into the flight school I was extremely curious what today's rates were. Whew!!! The plane was $88/hr (Cessna 172 I think) and the instructor was $45/hr, which comes to $133/hr. The woman behind the counter also mentioned something about charging a surcharge for fuel.

My gyro training - gyro, instructor, fuel- totals $130 an hour. Factor in the considerably less dual hours than I needed for the Cessna, it seems to be a bargain.

[Heron]

EAA MEMBER*
DAILY
WEEKLY

Adult
$20
$95

Spouse
$16**
$50**

Student (14-18)
$14
$46

Youth (8-13)
$10
$37

Children (7 & under)
FREE
FREE

Adult Guest (Limit 2)
$25
$130


NON-MEMBER DAILY WEEKLY
Adult $30 $180
Spouse $30 $116
Student (14-18) $17 $68
Youth (8-13) $12 $48
Children (7 & under) FREE FREE

If you want to go to Airventure 2005 would'nt you consider joining to get the discount?
Ron is alway right (not!) :D
Heron

[Vance]

Nice presentation Heron. Thank you, Vance

[Heron]

Vance, are you coming to Oshkosh?
Heron

[Vance]

Mentone and Oskosh are on my schedule. Lets not get off thread. Thank you, Vance