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View Full Version : 10 gal. seat tank


Iron
05-05-2005, 09:06 PM
Looking for a 10 gal. seat tank or larger. Could someone direct me to a supplier. Thanks Roy

pwongkit
05-05-2005, 09:09 PM
Go to www.kenbrockmfg.com
pwongkit :D

gyroplanes
05-06-2005, 08:52 AM
I manufacture the popular SnoBird seat tank. It holds approximately 7.5 gallons. I have them in stock and ready to ship.

Rick Whittridge
05-09-2005, 10:09 PM
Tom, What are you selling a seat tank with cover for ?

skyguynca
05-09-2005, 10:14 PM
I do highly recommend one of Tom's Seat tanks. I have had a Brock seat tank and Tom's Snowbird tank is a much better tank.

Greg Mitchell
05-09-2005, 11:51 PM
G'Day Tom,

Would you be so kind as to furnish me with all available info on your tank and the fixing point detail, including pics.
rocksfly@dodo.com.au
Thanks Mate.
Mitch.

gyromike
05-10-2005, 04:17 AM
I have a SnoBird tank on my gyro also, and I too prefer it to the Brock tank.

scottessex
05-10-2005, 05:06 AM
I HAD a snowbird tank, it was comfortable, and I liked the fact that it had a sump in the tank, to collect water or trash, and be easily drained.

WindRyder06
05-10-2005, 06:40 PM
Mitch,
I changed my tank over to the SnoBird tank and the 2.5 gals extra are worth it. There are a few little mods you will need to make for it to fit but they are simple.

Greg Mitchell
05-10-2005, 09:18 PM
Thanks Chris,
Appreciate the pics. Maybe Tom will send me some further info. Tank looks good. We have a 7.5 gal tank comming for Daj's Monarch but it's not one of Tom's.
Cheers,
Mitch.

gyroplanes
05-11-2005, 01:26 PM
Thanks Chris,
Appreciate the pics. Maybe Tom will send me some further info. Tank looks good. We have a 7.5 gal tank comming for Daj's Monarch but it's not one of Tom's.
Cheers,
Mitch.
if you are getting it from Larry it might be one of mine. Larry Neal is one of my OEM customers.

gyroplanes
05-11-2005, 01:35 PM
I have bought back the seat tank portion of the SnoBird gyroplane business (the rest is for sale also)

I have had some seats molded and re-established contact with most of my old vendors.

I made a nice run of seat tanks and they went fairly quickly. I have been working on a web site with a designer and hope to have it up soon.
I have a .bmp of the seat tank dimensions I can e-mail out per request. It is too large a file size to be posted here.

I sell the complete seat tank kit for $250.00 plus shipping. Quantity O.E.M. pricing is available.

Kit includes:
7.5 gallon seat tank in black, translucent and blue at this time
"U" mounting tube (black powder coated)
Fuel cap
Mounting hardware
Fuel level sight tube
Grommets
Elbows
Fuel valve
Quick drain valve

Greg Mitchell
05-11-2005, 04:17 PM
Hey Tom,
Thanks for that, I just assumed it was a 7.5 tank out of LEAF because I didn't know that anyone else was doing them. I'd like the bmp file please and wish to discuss further OEM possibility. rocksfly@dodo.com.au
Cheers,
Mitch.

gyroplanes
05-12-2005, 10:23 AM
Hey Tom,
Thanks for that, I just assumed it was a 7.5 tank out of LEAF because I didn't know that anyone else was doing them. I'd like the bmp file please and wish to discuss further OEM possibility. rocksfly@dodo.com.au
Cheers,
Mitch.

The seat tank L.E.A.F. offers is the SnoBird seat tank. They buy them from me.
The .BMP file is on the way.

Greg Mitchell
05-12-2005, 05:08 PM
Tom,
Have bmp in hand, also feedback from Larry. Have had my eye on the Leaf (your) Tank for sometime. We have one of your tanks on it's way to Oz for install on the third Butterfly/Monarch under construction and given the 'raps' I reckon this will be a std fittment for future craft here.
I will be in touch to discuss further. Thanks again Tom and all.
Mitch.

Iron
05-14-2005, 08:33 AM
I would like to thank every body for their imput. Does any one know any
thing about the gyrokoppter seat tanks. Thanks Roy

gyroplanes
05-14-2005, 11:45 PM
I would like to thank every body for their imput. Does any one know any
thing about the gyrokoppter seat tanks. Thanks Roy

Sorry if I hijacked your thread and didn't answer your question either.

The only seat tank I know of that holds over 10 gallons US is a converted dune buggy seat. Ora Cook used to convert them, I'm not sure if he still does. They are often seen on Dominators. Maybe Ernie can help you with info regarding them. I think Ernie might know about the seat tanks from Bob Kopp as well. Good luck, Tom

MikeBoyette
05-16-2005, 11:24 AM
Tom,
Have you ever considered installing an insert in the middle of the back of your seat mold? This would probably bump the capacity up. Just a thought. The 12 gallon seats that dad used to get from Ora are no longer available. The only seats he supplies now are yours.

gyroplanes
05-16-2005, 02:06 PM
Tom,
Have you ever considered installing an insert in the middle of the back of your seat mold? This would probably bump the capacity up. Just a thought. The 12 gallon seats that dad used to get from Ora are no longer available. The only seats he supplies now are yours.

Hi Mike,
I wish they had designed my seat tank for a little more capacity. I think they thought it was going to be around 11 gallons.

Since the mold, or "tool" as they call it, cost $14,000 to make, I doubt I'll be modifying it any time soon. I usually recommend the Air Command aux tanks if they want to increase the capacity. That combo nets around 14 gallons.

MikeBoyette
05-16-2005, 03:39 PM
Tom,
Thanks I was just wondering. I thought it would be difficult/or not cost effective. Dad had that 18 gal tank, but that went away when his former supplier in Tiawan became a fugitive.

rblumhorst
06-07-2005, 04:07 PM
I have my reservations about seat tanks in general. I managed to stuff my VW-Bensen a couple of weeks ago, and I sat through the seat tank on impact. Fortunately I had mounted tanks beneath the seat, so I did not take a bath, or worse. The tank was old and probably brittle, but it did give me cause to consider the design of the gyro and the mechansim of impact absorption. So - How strong are seat tanks? Strong enough to withstand a vertical impact of_____? For how long are they strong enough?

gyroplanes
06-08-2005, 05:38 PM
I have my reservations about seat tanks in general. I managed to stuff my VW-Bensen a couple of weeks ago, and I sat through the seat tank on impact. Fortunately I had mounted tanks beneath the seat, so I did not take a bath, or worse. The tank was old and probably brittle, but it did give me cause to consider the design of the gyro and the mechansim of impact absorption. So - How strong are seat tanks? Strong enough to withstand a vertical impact of_____? For how long are they strong enough?

First, sorry about your loss Rick. Care to share with us what happened?

Old and brittle is a problem with plastic tanks.

If it was an old Ken Brock tank, they were made of fiberglass. I got a gas bath from one of them during a "hard landing".

I had a mis-drilled Air Command 5 gallon tank once. It took a very substantial hit with a large hammer, wielded by a very large person, to put a hole in it. It did not have the pass through holes.

I have seen the early Air Command tanks crack from flexing in the seat area after a few short years of service. The older Air Command tanks did not have a pass through hole in their back and bottom. The pass throughs dramatically increase the strength of the tank and greatly reduce the flexing.

I was told that Ken Brock dropped one of his poly tanks, full of water, from the roof of his building. It reportedly was not compromised.

My SnoBird tanks are made of cross linked fuel tank material. One of the things that attracted me to the SnoBird seat tank was the design of the mold which keeps the thickness of the seat material fairly uniform throught the corners and flat areas. I learned from trying to drill and tap other seat tanks that they often have less than .100" material thickness

I have a cut away tank that shows the thickness to be between .210" and .250" throughout the cross section. I will have it with my display at Mentone.

rblumhorst
06-09-2005, 04:11 PM
Tom -
It was a plastic tank. It had a single support tube molded into the center of the seat, about the diameter of a nickel. There are (were) 4 aluminum insets on the bottom, and the tank was supported by a (more or less U-shaped) tube frame.

I bought this gyro in 1990, when my kids were small. I had no PIC flight time at all back then, only fascination with flight. I did quite a bit of work on it to put it into flyable condition, I'm pretty sure I saved the previous owner from killing himself. But I also realized early on (after accidentally lifting off during taxi training) that my children needed me more than I needed to fool around with it. Getting training was a problem back then also, and I don't recall any discussion of HTL or CLT issues. So I parked it, and kept it oiled from time to time.

We measured about 250 lbs of thrust at about 3500 rpm when I cranked it up in Denver some years ago.

Our kids are nearly grown now, and I figured I have a little more time now time to learn how this thing works. So...

I'd taken the gyro out several times in the last few months. I've also accumulated about 36 hours flying time in a Cherokee 180 through a flying club in the last year. Familiarity with the Cherokee was instrumental in getting me back in the gyro, as now I know how to land an aircraft. I think the training I got in the Cherokee, while not completely applicable to the gyro, was still very useful. Primary is the need to maintain airspeed, a point which I inadvertently temporarily lost sight of.

It was Sunday afternoon, about 6-7 pm. The wind was almost calm, 5 mph or less. Temperature about 75, beautiful blue sky, perfect flying weather. I had been practicing takeoffs, high speed low flight down the runway and landings, then a little pattern flying for about an hour at max altitude of about 300. On the last takeoff I turned out left before climbing enough and was at about 100' and heading back parallel to the runway. The (1835) VW makes enough power to climb out straight, or to turn and maintain altitude and airspeed, but not enough to have good airspeed at the completion of the turn. I was normally able to pull back and climb, then let the stick go forward to regain good airspeed then claimb again, all at about 1/2 - 3/4 throttle. When I attempted to climb after exiting the turn, my airspeed dropped to about 30 mph and I ballooned a little. I perceived that I did not have enough altitude to dive and regain airspeed. I think now that if I had dived, I would have impacted very nose low at a high rate of speed and would probably have had the engine pass through me when the keel broke. I knew from my previous too-slow landings from maybe 10' that I was in trouble, and that I was going to have a hard landing that would result in destruction of the aircraft. Given my (recent, last year or so) understanding of the flight characteristics of the HTL gyrocopter, I considered that I was on the edge of a power pushover (I think now probably not) or could have developed pilot induced oscillation (very likely) if I shoved the stick forward. I did as I had done before when landing too slow from maybe 10' up - I gave it about throttle, pulled the stick back and rode it down. From the time I knew I was in trouble to impact was maybe 3-4 seconds. I set down really hard, I'd guess the forward ground speed was maybe 20 mph.

The impact was sufficient to shear the single 1/4 AN bolt that provides the front (clamp style) engine mount vertical support. The rear engine support tubes of course collapsed. The nose was drawn up by the cable attached to the rotorhead as the redundant mast bent backward. The mast is bent back and the rotorhead pivot block stop impacted the fore-and-aft tube and bent it. The keel is broken, just not all the way through. The front seat supports were attached to the keel by a single through bolt (bad installation) which pushed through the bottom of the keel.

Lessons learned -
I put on about 25 lbs since I first accidentally flew it in 1991. Not good.
The VW makes good thrust, but is heavy and contributed to the high sink rate.
The heavy VW-powered aircraft does not climb out as quickly as some others Ive seen fly in the last few years. You cannot afford to get behind the power curve.

However, I'm still convinced that flying a gyro is:
relatively inexpensive;
more fun than ___
inherently safer than fixed wing aviation, due to the inability to stall the aircraft.

Flying any aircraft requires specialized training and understanding of the characteristics of the vehicle. Knowing how to salvage a less-than-perfect landing from what could have been a disaster is part of that also. For a fixed wing stall at 100', there is no recovery. For a gyro, it's only a matter of riding it down, and walking away from it (from my limited perspective and experience).

Had I lost airspeed at 100 in the Cherokee, Id probably have been seriously injured. The club members would not be happy with me either. As it is, I have a minor ankle sprain and a nice bruise on my rearend. And a pile of parts.

Unfortunately I discovered this forum AFTER my incident. After having read several of the posts I realized that I was sort of on the right track with my learning, and sort of not.

I suppose I should have quit while I was ahead, so much for hindsight. But it was SO much fun flying the thing. Nuts. Now that I know more of what I'm doing, I can't do it.

RB

GyroRon
06-09-2005, 07:16 PM
A spiral decent would have maybe kept the blades loaded enough to give some flare just before landing.

gyroplanes
06-10-2005, 11:28 AM
It appears that you had a 5 gallon Brock or Air Command seat tank.

rom your description it sounds like you had a classical, self-training accident. We saw this type of accident often, prior to two place training.

Your analysis of the accident (incident) sounds right on except for the mention of the weak seat mount bolt installation: "The front seat supports were attached to the keel by a single through bolt (bad installation) which pushed through the bottom of the keel."

This may have saved you from further injury!

When Ken Brock developed the seat tank, DR. Bensen denounced their use. DR. Bensen claimed that the Bensen gyro seat was designed to progressively collapse on impact reducing the chance of spinal injury. Many other aircraft are designed with collapsable seating such as the Hughes 269 - 300 seriesand Robinson helicopters, just to name a few.

Sorry about your incident.

rblumhorst
06-10-2005, 03:41 PM
I considered that the through bolt weakened the keel. I think it would have been a better installation with a clamp arrangement. Still, something had to give, and I'm glad it gave downward, rather than upward. If the top bolts or the seat support tubing had failed, the support struts would have been shoved into the backs of my legs.

I sat and looked at the thing for awhile, to consider the forces and the mechanism of collapse. This is the first crashed gyro I've observed. Normally I would have preferred to learn from someone else's experience, but didn't have any other crashed gyros to look at.

Now what to do with the parts?

John Henry
06-13-2005, 09:26 AM
gyroplanes, please contact me at: statt@fuse.net so I may order a tank and would like some information on mounting, pads, fuel hardware. Thanks!

helipaddy
06-13-2005, 10:14 AM
Hi Tom,
Could you contact me also at helipaddy@eircom.net so I can also order a seat tank
Thanks
Paddy

John Henry
06-27-2005, 08:15 PM
I like the seat tanks and will probably install one but I remember a thread that had rotory molded round tanks.Does any one have that site available? I looked thru the threads but couldn't find it. I'm thinking about replacing my aluminium tank with one I can see the level easier and a seat tank.

Gyro-W
12-03-2005, 05:53 PM
Are those seat tank covers padded? Also will they fit a 5 gallon Brock seat?

gyroplanes
12-03-2005, 06:03 PM
Are those seat tank covers padded? Also will they fit a 5 gallon Brock seat?

Yes, our covers are padded. I carry Brock and Air Command covers as well. I have several colors and color combinations in stock.
Visit my web site for a good look at some of the covers and colors in stock.
calumetair.com

Robert G. Stark
12-03-2005, 07:32 PM
10 gallon seat tanks are now available from Air Command. They advertised them in "Honebuilt Rotorcraft Magazine"
Bob Stark

gab76
12-03-2005, 08:36 PM
Air Command Intl, Inc has just come out with a 10 gallon seat tank! They are taking orders now.

The tandem trainer I am building at Air Command will have just about 18 gallons useful filled up as I have the 8 gallon on the front seat and the 10 gallon in the back.


Greg Bradley CFI

krew
12-07-2005, 11:13 PM
do they come in 5 gallons and will they fit the gyrobee?

RockyMeLad
12-08-2005, 05:01 AM
Jason,
Air Command sells seat tanks of 5, 7.5, and 10 gals. http://aircommand.com/pricing%20options.htm
Tom at Calumet Air has a nice 7.4 gal that is less expensive, and he shows how to install a "vent" to limit fuel to 5 gal that is acceptable to FAA for Part 103 use. http://calumetair.com/tanks.php :)

gyroplanes
12-08-2005, 12:00 PM
Air Command's 7.5 gallon tank is my 7.5 gallon tank, they purchase them from me. I have a pdf file, on my site, where a customer installed one of my tanks on his 'Bee
http://www.calumetair.com/files/CalumetAir%20-%20Guide%20to%20Mounting%20a%20Seat%20Tank%20to%20 a%20Gyrobee.pdf
Tom

Phil_Ruffin
12-08-2005, 03:34 PM
Air Command 10 gal. seat tank it listed for $625.00
This place has them for $125.00. They are for a PPC, I called and got the measurments and I think it will fit my AC.

http://www.ulparts.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=seat%20tanks

krew
12-08-2005, 08:33 PM
Air Command's 7.5 gallon tank is my 7.5 gallon tank, they purchase them from me. I have a pdf file, on my site, where a customer installed one of my tanks on his 'Bee
http://www.calumetair.com/files/CalumetAir%20-%20Guide%20to%20Mounting%20a%20Seat%20Tank%20to%20 a%20Gyrobee.pdf
Tom
THANKS ALOT FOR THAT LINK!

Adam H
12-09-2005, 08:04 AM
These 14 Gal. seat tanks http://www.ulparts.com/SearchResult....s=seat%20tanks look like they would be hard to use on a gyro. They extend down so far I don't see how you could run the controls in the normal way.

Phil_Ruffin
12-09-2005, 08:49 AM
I talked to somebody on the phone not long ago and your right, the 14 Gal. seat tank will not fit, on my gyro anyway.

The 10 Gal. tank will, he said the support tubes at the back are 15-3/4" center to center. The back of the tank is 4" lower than the support tube and the front is 3" lower.