PRA Website?

[rgraffeo]

I went to the PRA website today to check the events calendar.
The old website is back up.
What happened to the new site?

[jdalexa]

To make a long story short. Mr. Glen Bundy is up to his old tricks of alienating folks who are trying to help PRA. He went in and ad hoc destroyed work that the web team had spent a lot of time on without even the courtesy of a "what's this and why".

So the web team who spent a LOT of hours on the new web project have quit. You can thank Mr Bundy. -- secretary@pra.org

This ol' boy mentality of PRA has gotta stop. People like Mr. Bundy are driving PRA into the dirt. Time for change - starting with bylaws and the board. All PRA members should have ownership in the org, not just life members. Whose PRA is it? Time to take it back and build it back up.

PRA can change and regrow or it can continue like it is and die in a couple of years.

I invite all PRA members to contact the Board members and tell them to get off their butts and start working for PRA or get out of the way for someone who will. You can email the board at: board@pra.org this address will go to all of them - though some, being luddites, won't get the email (president@pra.org for instance)

[Rando]

luddite

"One who opposes technical or technological change"

[Brian Jackson]

Giving the benefit of the doubt, could this have been purely by accident that the files got moved? Is the new site still on the PRA server somewhere? Are there any backup archives of the new site?

[jdalexa]

I stand by my characterization, though I amend it to specify "computer luddite".

I invite all to email the PRA president - president@pra.org and see how long it takes to get a reply - if they get one. How can one be the head of an international organization and refuse to use something as basic as email.

It has been stated that Mr Goldsberry has offered to step down, but nobody on the board wants the position. What is wrong with this scenario? The bylaws as they exist foster an ol' boy club attitude.

The changes:
- any member who has been a member for 3 years can be a board member. Board membership is by vote of the membership at large. Terms should be 3 years. (5 is just too long for anyone)

- PRA members nominate officer candidates. Any member who has been a member for 3 years or more can be an officer. Board chooses from the nominated candidates. Term should be 2 years. Keep it fresh.

- Board will meet 6 times a year. In person meetings at Bensen Days and the annual convention. The others via telephone conference. In person meetings are public. Phonecon meetings are private (to let business get done).

There. Simple. The members pay dues. It's the members PRA, not just a small cliques. Lets take it back.

[jdalexa]

Giving the benefit of the doubt, could this have been purely by accident that the files got moved? Is the new site still on the PRA server somewhere? Are there any backup archives of the new site?

I will tell you that we of the web team freaked! We thought the site had been hacked.

No, the files were not moved. They were gone. We of the web team are all computer and network professionals and know how and where to look. I personally am a security professional, trained in computer forensics.

[Doug Riley]

Do we know that it was intentional? How do we know?

Wars have started because people jumped to conclusions.

[iconnary]

Tim will need to provide the full details, but it was clearly intentional - Mr. Bundy admitted that he did it.

I'm new to the PRA but I realize organizations like this are driven largely by volunteer efforts. I feel that I've made a very sincere and generous effort to contribute to the PRA by helping build the new website with John & Tim. Now the president and VP step in and without any dialogue or discussion they delete our work.

Nothing to better encourage volunteer efforts than to have your work intentionally blown away by the leadership. We spent many a late night getting that stuff put together, and the feedback was all positive.

I make every effort to stay out of the political spats so common to the PRA, but I will say that it's my opinion now that the best contribution Glenn and Gary can make to the PRA is to start looking for their own replacements.

[jdalexa]

I will say that I have been unfair to Mr. Goldsberry. He is filling a roll he doesn't want and neither does anyone on the board. Props to him for sticking it out.

It's time to move on. Changes need to be made. Mr Goldsberry does not want the job. That serves neither Mr Goldsberry nor PRA. The bylaws as they exist are exacerbating this situation.

There is no need for any apology by anyone. Whats done is done -- but it CAN be undone. Technology goooooodd!!! Lets move on and make it better. Of course, we're unlikely to want to expend any time and effort if someone can ad hoc blow away our work.......

[Mike Hook]

I commend all that have put so much time into the PRA page. Guess like you said they dont want any one playing with their ball.

Seems like it is time for a Rotary Fourm Web page that would allow all of what you had published on the PRA site and more.

Keep up the good work, it does not go unnoticed.

Mike

[jdalexa]

And now, after dialoging (haha - I love that term) with MR. Bundy, I will say that it seems that he felt that he was acting in the better interest of PRA. Props to him on that.

We of the web team took our ball and went home with it. Yep. True. As someone who really likes doing that stuff, it is a tad... unsettling.. to have it ad hoc deleted at an individual whim - regardless of intentions. Different matter if I was being paid to do it.

The main issue is that of an on-line classified ads site taking revenue from the print classifieds. The fact of the matter is that if PRA doesn't host free on-line classifieds, someone else will. An immutable law of the web. Anyway, everyone that hits a classified ads site is a prospective new member. Bogus to only show them ads that are so out of date they are dripping mold.

With luck, there will be a meeting of the minds and not like Big Horn sheep do. We'll see. Things gotta change. PRA is and has been sinking. Lets bail out the ship and plug the leaks.

[Dean_Dolph]

Hmmm, I made a post on the thread about the classified ads and hadn't read this one at the time.

I personally like Glenn but if in fact he made a unilateral decision and took action without the consensus of the BOD then there absolutely isn't any excuse for that. He is an intelligent guy but he must have been having a bad day and didn't think this through.

I can't help but feel that ole lack of communication has claimed another victim(s).

[gyrogreg]

Please, can everyone just take a breath? I am disturbed to the core about all this - just when things start looking a bit hopeful and constructive, something goes wrong. I have talked personally with several players in this saga, and read all the postings and emails. I feel that there are certainly some "failures to communicate" – on all sides! There also seems to be a bit of "shooting from the hip" reaction that isn’t helping. Please holster your guns!
we're all on the same team, and the public discourse can only polarize the sides and make it more difficult to step back from the brink.

It is very regrettable that all this has gone public, fueling the fire much before the officers and Board and others can clear the air and constructively resolve the issue. It seems clear to me that there will need to be considerable dialogue before the total picture emerges.

Please take a breath, let the flames burn down a bit, and then let's try to sort this out.

Its my opinion, that the PRA nor the gyroplane community can afford to go any time at all without the website.

I am making this personal appeal to all sides:

• Web Team: PLEASE restore the website - Classifieds and all!

• Glenn: PLEASE allow the web classifieds to be published for now - until we get a chance to sort out all the issues and HEAR all the perspectives

• ALL: Please try to listen to all sides and find some compromise.

This classified issue may be of significant impact or not - to do it or not. But, the impact of posting internet classifieds or not certainly pales to the damage and harm this little scuffle can cause. It's not worth the demise of the PRA.

I propose that we post the classifieds on the web as the web team has proposed. Web team, please track the hits and income from this. Glenn, please put together the stats on classifieds revenue for the last several years, and track the classifieds revenue and new memberships, etc. I propose at the Mentone Board meeting the Board consider the collected facts and decide which way to go or continue.

In the meantime, could the parties involved please hold private – not public – conversations to make sure everyone understands all the issues and perspectives. One common ground I can see is that everyone was trying to benefit the PRA. It should be a simple matter to then review and discuss the options and make the determination.

The PRA and gyroplane community have much bigger issues than this classifieds issue. This has possibly served to stir up those issues. Let's work constructively on the underlying real issues and put this one to bed before it kills the PRA - please!

Please fly safe - Greg Gremminger

[madmax]

This sounds all too familiar. I do think you guys with the talent and want to should stick it out. I went through 9 years of this stuff before I quite the Board and look at all the flak I got. Give it an other try before you quit You'll be glad you did. You will at least know by then you gave it your best shot and can walk away with that regardless of what others say.

[LGoodhind]

Does anybody have a backup or are we starting with an empty phpwebsite and hand copy/updating the text scraped off the original site? I blew away the only local copy I had from when the site was moved to the main url because it was stale. It's no big deal on the time- this way the rest of us can try 'n catch up with John. <g>

I apologize for my earlier inflamatory and pointless comment. It's gone. If you want to read it find a backup. ;)

[route66]

I am beginning to wonder about my joining the PRA. I was excited to see new and fresh content to the website as well as the magazine seemed to be getting better. I really thought the organization was going to turn the corner and be a positive influence to enhance and educate people to the world of Gyro’s and other Rotorcraft. I appreciate all the time and knowledge spent on the New website, it was a testimonial to the memberships desire to show the positive side of our addictions. I was excited enough to have the pleasure of attending Benson Days and took the time to edit and post over 45 pictures of the ongoing event from my hotel room. I heard responses from a few that they showed up just because of the pictures and listings on the PRA website. The internet is an amazing marketing tool and needs to have good content to educate everyone to the safety and excitement of rotorcraft. It is sad that all that time and energy can be deleted with just a click.
If you’re religious I think a prayer is in order!
If you are like me, ya all need to sit down and open a couple cold ones!
And please work together to set a positive direction to move forward.
This chicken fight is turning my stomach. Ok, I’ll have a beer!

[madmax]

P.S.

I did have a chance to see the new website before it was deleted. It was very nice and you guys should be proud of your work.

[Friendly]

Greg.
it's good to see you speaking out for unity. Especially with the political climate that we are in. I look for more and more of our freedoms to be restrained with fed gov. trying to control terrioism. We do need to stay focused and the internet has changed the way business is done here and world wide.
To all the volunteers who worked on the new PRA image (web page) your efforts are appreciated by the majority of people who are searching for information on gyros. We are PRA and you did help us.
I believe the organization made large steps to unify the past two months and we need to support you , Greg and others who are working on goals despite our many personalities.

[gyroblackwell]

I am bringing this to the forum in hopes of ending the negative thoughts, and comments, and bringing you all up to speed.

I am the guy that let this get out of hand, and I apologize for doing so.
Had I taken a step back and evaluated the situation before shooting my mouth off to the Web committee, things might not have gotten this carried away.

I will not take blame for the short sightedness of some people, and the trashing of the classifieds section. I will say that communication was the fault(or should I say LACK of ....) I was in such a hurry to complete the website, by adding the classifieds, that I did not make it clear to the committee, that a FREE classifieds section will only hurt the already bad money situation that We all are facing. The PRA Magazine relys on the small but continuos funding
that the classifieds section brings in.

When eager beaver (former members) start taking advantage of our organization, then people that see the cash flow , and seeing the outcome of the free-bee hurting that cash flow .... become re-active intsead of pro-active.

I failed to inform the original webmaster of the committee's intention to provide a short term free classifieds to see if this would help bring more members in, and bring back the members that dropped out.

Long term..... the classifieds will be a "pay for service" section, just as E-bay
gets funding for services. The plus side of the "web-classifieds" is that your
ad is up on the net quickly, and the results are better. Pictures can be
added, and the cost is good for the results provided.

I in tern did not react in a way that would have put a quick end to this drama, but instead let my pride, and outrage get the better of me.

I will defend the removal of the new sight, returning to the oldsite. This was the deal I made with the original webmaster if the direction the site was working towards was not accepted by the original webmaster.

The committee kept up it's end of the deal, and returned everything to it's original state.

I allowed my frustration to bleed off to my fellow webmasters, and all-hell-broke-loose.

Please accept my apologies for this lack of wisdom on my part.

The committee will be putting the new site back online, and a new means
of communication is being worked out as I type.

I agree whole-heartedly with Greg Gremminger, we need to stick together, and work through the current problems. We are the PRA, and only We can make things better.

I have asked the former members to return to the group, and work with me to
make the PRA website the best it can be. I hope that all parties involved will let this fade to the past, and work to resolve any disention that lurks in the
shadows.

I have a new found understanding of what the Elected board members must go through, and how one persons hot-tempered action, can lead to all out mutany over a little miss-understanding.

Thanks for your time, and please help the committee to return things to normal.

[Timchick]

If the PRA doesn't want to provide free classifieds why don't they just charge the normal ad fee and put the ads on both the web site and in the magazine? Sounds like a simple solution. The PRA should have a website where anyone trying to learn about gyros can go to and get all the info they need. They shouldn't have to go to "private" websites to get the info. It should include a comprehensive list of the gyro manufacturers out there (with current contact info). Nobody will join the PRA if they can't find any info about our sport.

[jdalexa]

If you are like me, ya all need to sit down and open a couple cold ones!
And please work together to set a positive direction to move forward.
This chicken fight is turning my stomach. Ok, I’ll have a beer!


Mmmm... beer... I with ya bro! And maybe even ahead of ya!!

Monitor getting... blurry... But.. hang in there. good times, they are a commin'