GyroRon & Horiz. Stabs

[CLS447]

Ron took my 447 for one little flight & I had to rip the whole thing apart when I got home!

Just kidding!

Dick Degraw had pointed out a cracked weld on my instrument pod mount......Sure enough , when I loaded it on the trailer, the weld snapped!

So, I gotta fix that, so I might as well do a bunch of stuff. Which includes swapping over to the newer horizontal stabs.

Before I just mount them up like they were, I was wondering if anyone has any experience with pitching the stabs , or moving them up, like on the original Butterfly?

[spaceman spiff]

Just got an AC gyro a lot like yours, except it has no stab. Where do you get the newer stab you mentioned?

Is the boom longer on the newer model too?

[CLS447]

Hey Space, congrats...I had the early stabs....honeycomb something. At Sun & Fun 2000 I met Doug Smith of AC for the first time. He sold me the longer tail keel(one piece), new improved rotor head,new shocks,aluminum tail block& gave me a great price on the new composite stabs. I guess he was never happy with the first ones.

They are now standard with the AC. I got the new ones mounted today, now I just got to detail them(trim rubber strip,new nuts & bolts, a little silicone & some polish)

The old ones were black. I hated to change them but it was time, the bolt holes were elongating & the rubber strip that had to be glued all the way around them was starting to come out. None of that stuff with the new ones!

How about some pics of your AC? Any questions, just ask, I might be able to help?

[spaceman spiff]

Here's a veiw of the engine, resizing a side view. as you can see it is pretty badly weathered! :D
My friend is still searching for the documents, so i am not entirely sure what i have here.

[spaceman spiff]

Many thanks for the reply. The blades have been stored out of the sun, and look OK, but not sure if i should use them. Didn't measure them yet but if i remember corectly, the guy said they were 29 Ft. Noticed most are using shorter blades now. Any advantage in shorter blades? How do you like the newer head?

So far what i would like to do to it is get the stab and longer boom, new prop of some sort of course, would like to get rid of the oil injector and just do premix like everyone does with the jetskis, and of course tear it all down and check it all out. built a few hotrods and jetskis so i am pretty comfortable working on stuff....

[KenSandyEggo]

Joe, are those auxiliary aluminum fuel tanks ready to be mounted sitting next to the gyro? Should give you a pretty good range.....like Florida and back without refueling.

[spaceman spiff]

Check out those jumbo fuel caps!

[CLS447]

Spaceman, can I call you Joe ?

Your engine looks like a Rotax 532....it is not oil injected. That small oil tank is to lube the water pump. The newer 582 has injection.

Rotor blades are sized according to weight. 29' blades would be too long for that machine. I would bet you have 25' blades.

When I purchased my 447 back in 85 , my brothers got the 532 machine with the 25' blades. Then for an additional fee they could have put on the SxS conversion.With the 25' blades & the 65hp it would have been a marginal performer. Still many flew them.

Oh, about my rotorhead, I was concerned that it was time to tear it down for inspection. When I took it to SnF to rebuild it Doug showed me some of the new features. Mostly SS bushings in the pivot points instead of the oilite bushings. I must have had money at that time because I bought it for $400, but turned around & sold the original for $200 very easily. I just liked what they had done with it & I felt better knowing it was new.

I would take your head apart & install new bushings,Bolts, the bearing,& cotter pins.

Don't try to skimp on the rotorhead & try to get experienced help for reassembly. It's very simple just don't take anything for granted!

Good luck on the resto it needs it... not trying to bum you out but I probably would replace all the AN hardware on it. While you are doing that you can inspect the tubes & the SS instabushings & inserts.

The black finish on the early Ac's was paint & mine was flaking off. So I had alot of my tubes powder coated. Air Command now anodizes their parts, much nicer! So it would be a good time to refinish the airframe.

Don't forget the training......That 532 has plenty of power to give you a pushover.

The best way to go would be to order the Center Line Thrust upgrade kit & stabs. This would make it a much more safe & stable machine.

Keep us posted & enjoy!

[spaceman spiff]

Thanks Chris, learning a lot here.

What is the SxS conversion? Marginal performer? Sorry, i got lost in that sentence. is it something about the SxS conversion, the heavy composite blades?, the 532? the weight of the bigger 65HP?

If all goes well, i plan on flying it in tha fall... errr umm, make that autum, sounds better... contacted a guy who teaches on air command gyros. His add says he provides some sort of assistance for me to transition from the twin to the single seat..sounds ideal for the task, close by too, haven't heard back from him, yet.

didn't meant to hijack your thread

How's the new Stab look? got picks?

Joe

[barnstorm2]

Joe,

SxS is slang for Side by Side. Air Command offers an upgrade that turns a single place machine into a 2-place machine. I don't know if upgrade is the correct term because you rebuild the whole gyro, but you get a cheaper price because you get to re-use the parts from your single place.

[dapartlow]

Chris, I bought the 532 ac from Nick on ebay( see for sale thread ) what was the cost of the stabs ?

[cgmg]

Joe,

The guy you contacted sounds like my instructor. His name is Charlie Mara, and he will walk you through the entire process, training and your machine. Trust him implicitly, he is very safety oriented, and will thoroughly check your machine out, then test fly it, for you. You will love the transition training. It's the best bang for the buck you can get.

He taught both my wife and I to fly, and I consider us extremely fortunate to have met him, and to have been trained by him. Our club lost a huge asset when he moved to Arizona.

When you do contact him, please be sure to tell him Mark Greene says a big hello, and that I still think about where I'm going to land when(not if) the engine quits. And I still practice engine out landings on a regular basis.

Best of luck with your machine, and your training. Welcome to the club, it's a great one!

[spaceman spiff]

Yes! Charlie Mara! One and same!
Glad to hear this endorsement.
Will give him your regards.

[cgmg]

Chris,

If you are interested in selling your old horizontal, please let me know. I have the honeycomb design one, too, and one corner of the horizontal is starting to buckle. Mine still works ok, and can't spend the bucks for the new style, since I had to buy the new engine last year.

Thanks,

Mark

[CLS447]

Hi all, I'm back....big deal.

First off, Doug gave me a retail price for the stab kit @ $275 + S&H .They are nice. I used the rubber strip that came with my early ones on the new one. I don't know if that comes with the kit.

Back in the 80's, you could buy the 532 machine with the 25' blades & then later buy for $900,I think, The bench seat & dual controls & convert it to a SxS in about a day. But if you ask anyone that has owned & flew one, they will tell you that it really didn't have enough power for serious flying. It did give alot of people intro rides around the pattern though. Unfortunately, my brothers lost interest & sold theirs.



Joe , I agree with you on the looks of the CLT kit.....But I do love my new Elite CLT SxS. It is a much more robust(heavy) machine. I'm still working on getting more out of my Sub 81 or I will have to get a bigger engine.

Tim O , how's it going? Flying much? I'm not trying to start anything just want your honest opinion.
Is your HTL 447 the first machine you owned & soloed?

I know that your SxS is CLT, & money is tight but....why haven't you upgraded the 447 to CLT? Are you happy the way it is?

I'm waiting to hear alot more from Rotorhead about his conversion. So far he said "feels great" & it now climbs out at a slower speed. I know it makes it safer but I ain't dead yet nor are you.

Mark G. ...Did you fly the HTL AC first & then convert it? If so please tell us why you like it better.

I learned to fly my 447 after a weekend with Bill Parsons. I went right back home & practiced just the way he told me to, & I succeeded. That was before the stabs & CLT. Since then I have added every upgrade they offered except for the CLT.

All my money is in my new machine & I just love the way my 447 has evolved. But I need more testimonies from people like you guys before I totaly reconfigure it!

Joe, Tim made a good point ,I was thinking the same thing earlier. Converting over to CLT would be right along with the resto.

Ron A. was a little dramatic as always, but he's right...better safe than sorry! If you do all that you might as well build a new machine! But since you got it for a great price It won't kill you to pump a little money into the gyro community!

Imagine paying thousands for a machine & then someone dumps that news on you!

I'm rambling.....but all this CLT stuff is real interesting.It's the same issue with the RAF. If it was so bad, people would stop enjoying them so much, scrap em & switch to the Sparrowhawk. But many don't!

Alright all you CLT guys let me have it.....I fly both!

[CLS447]

Mark, sorry ,I already have plans for them.

[GyroRon]

Chris, remember how much thrust your 447 Rotax powered HTL gyro produced?

Remember how much mine put out? Mine was 65 horsepower just like the one SpacemanSpiff just got.

Don't you agree that there is a huge difference in level of danger of flying a HTL gyro with less than 250 pounds of thrust and one identical to it but with a extra 100-130 pounds of thrust?

Remember that even RAF warned that the people flying their machines would need special training when upgrading to the new EJ-25 Subaru over the standard EJ-22.

You need to consider it is not nearly the same - compairing a 40 horse HTL aircommand to a 65 horsepower one like it.

Lastly don't forget the fact that the 532 is a on/off engine. It is like a dirtbike and has a peaky powerband. that alone can make it more dangerous for us in a gyro.

[cgmg]

Chris,

Our machine was CLT from the start. I bought a partially assembled CLT kit from a guy, went through it thoroughly, and replaced everything I thought needed it, and then Charlie, our instructor, had us replace a few more.

Charlie's training machine is a tandem Air Command, non-CLT. He had the keel extension, but I still had a heck of a time controlling pitch excursions with it. Charlie thought I wasn't ever going to get the hang of it, and told me that after 10 hours, if I still didn't get it, he would refund the rest of my money, if I promised not to fly. That was after my last lesson that year in December. When I came back next spring, somehow I got it, and continued on to solo.

But knowing what Charlie's machine would do with pitch excursions, and what ours wouldn't do, was a dramatic difference. Part of Charlie's training includes him transitioning you to your machine under his direct supervision. So I would fly in his machine, then fly ours, as part of the transition period. Once I got truly airborne in ours, in the pattern, I could tell the difference.

That's why I've told Joe, in another thread, that I won't fly a non-CLT Air Command. I've got a buddy who still has one, and he constantly asks me to try his. No dice, never, not interested.

On the horizontal, thanks anyway. One of these days I'll find one, or the one corner will get bad enough I'm forced to, buy a new one. Just trying to reduce the expenses this year.

[CLS447]

Ron, I flew the 532 AC. I agree ,it has the power to dump you.

I always keep a positive loading on the blades.....that's what you're supposed to do, Right?

Do you regularly unload the blades on your dominator?


I hold out for good flying weather & I was never real comfortable in gusts & thermals. It became second nature to throttle back & load the blades. It will be hard for me to not do this now.

I guess what I want to hear is that the CLT kit will eliminate this. Unlike you, I will not fly someone elses machine. So I must consider others opinions or shell out the bucks & try it myself.

My 2 machines are way too different to base my decision on. I await Rotorheads apples to apples comparison. I want to hear about the pitch excursion thing in his experience.

[GyroRon]

Do you regularly unload the blades on your dominator?


I hold out for good flying weather & I was never real comfortable in gusts & thermals. It became second nature to throttle back & load the blades. It will be hard for me to not do this now.

.

Yes I have unloaded the blades a few times and at high power settings. Never caused a problem.

I don't like bumpy weather either, but not cause I am worried about the gyro and what could happen, I just don't like the bumpy ride. I have flown my gyro on days I would not fly anything else including alot of other gyros.

[barnstorm2]

Tim O , how's it going? Flying much? I'm not trying to start anything just want your honest opinion.
Is your HTL 447 the first machine you owned & soloed?

I know that your SxS is CLT, & money is tight but....why haven't you upgraded the 447 to CLT? Are you happy the way it is?

I'm waiting to hear alot more from Rotorhead about his conversion. So far he said "feels great" & it now climbs out at a slower speed. I know it makes it safer but I ain't dead yet nor are you.

Alright all you CLT guys let me have it.....I fly both!


Going fine.

Flew three times so far this year. All the 447. I love that little gyro. Well, when it is below 80F anyway.

The HTL 447 is my first machine and my first aircraft solo.

I am VERY happy with it the way it is. As you know the low power of the 447 means risk of PPO is greatly reduced though not eliminated.

I may take some heat over this but.. I think the most dangerous thing about the HTL 447 is not the high thrust line but it's lack of power.

I am very glad to have the gyro and I have a strong attachment to it. However, the lack of power gets old after awhile. You learn 'good habits' though. Because you NEVER have power to fix what ever situation you get into you learn to fly it out of problems and not depend on the throttle like a crutch.

But when it gets hot an humid out and with my 190lb in the seat things get bad. She just has no climb athority. You have to instinctivly use attitude to solve airspeed problems not the throttle because it is already at full.

I have no desire to CLT the craft right now. I am soooooooooo tired of %^% working on gyros, boats and bikes I could scream. In fact I think I will... AAAAGGGHH.

Thats better.

I want a CLT single place but I think she(447) flys great as is and my long range plan is to sell her off the way she is and go for an Ultrawhite or Butterfly.

If I could come across a free or near zero cost rotax engine larger then 447 then I would do the conversion and the engine upgrade at the same time. ( but no until the 2-place is making x-countries)

With good training I think the AC HTL machines can be reasonably safe but once you get a taste of CLT you know it is better for more than just safety.

I am disapointed to hear that Rotor-head's machine is climbing out slower. Hard to imagine anything climing slower than my HTL 447 does now! :eek:

I am in no rush to sell her. I have to get the bugs out of the 2-place first and I have grown fond of her. She is nimble and light unlike the two-place 'bruser'.

The 447 is the funest aircraft to land I have ever flown in peroid. I LOVE doing a steep decent to a no-roll landing right in front of the fixed wingers waiting on the taxi way to depart. Then cranking the throttle and go-karting it back to the hanger.

[cgmg]

Chris,

Regarding the handling of CLT in thermals, I can answer your question. I have a VSI in my EIS, and have flown into a 700 fpm thermal, just this last Saturday. Like you, I used to be uncomfortable with thermals and avoided them as much as possible by limiting my flying. But as I have been involved in more and more of them, as I slowly extend my flight envelope, I've gotten used to them, and trust the machine more now.

But even at the 700 fpm climb rate, I did not have to do anything with the stick. The most I will do is adjust the throttle to maintain my altitude if the change continues for more than a couple hundred feet of altitude(the altitude change goes both ways, depending on whether you're entering it or leaving it). My speed tends to fluctuate by up to 10 mph if it's a stronger thermal, but I just relax and fly on, so far.

I'm sure the nose rises or lowers some as this is happening, but I honestly can't detect which way, maybe because the attitude change is so small. If I was more scientific in my flight testing, like Stan, I would mount some kind of level to tell me. But I'm not like Stan in that way, so I haven't.

Whatever else, I firmly believe you will be more comfortable flying with CLT, and eventually it will increase the amount of time you can fly, as you learn to trust the machine to do the proper thing in thermals.

With that said, remember that I gradually worked my way into more and more thermally active flying. This learning curve has been spread out over 100+ hours of time in the machine now, so I have been a slow learner, which works for me.

[WindRyder06]

Tim,
Go back and read "rotorhead's" post about CLT performance. I think you will find it to be different than you are saying...

"I've got an AC 447 that I just put a CLT kit on and I am climbing about 150-200fpm MORE than I was as a HTL machine. After I took off for the first time (CLT), I was at 3/4 throttle and climbing better than before at full throttle. The CLT will make a difference. The rotor will fly a bit more level (less drag).

I would do the CLT first and then make the engine decision (since you should go CLT anyway). You may like it just fine with the 503 and CLT".

I am not trying start somthing but it seams he is very happy!!

Fly Safe,
Chris

Tim, Sorry I read your post on the other thread and you did make that claim!! It looks like the CLT is the way to go for that machine...

[barnstorm2]

Tim,
Go back and read "rotorhead's" post about CLT performance. I think you will find it to be different than you are saying...

I am not trying start somthing but it seams he is very happy!!
B]

CLS in post #15 states it climbs out slower and posts by rotorhead in other threads say we should wait for a detailed report so I guess we will have to wait for a full report.

I hope the climb performace is better, that is something my 447 could really use.

[CLS447]

Hey Tim, you just misunderstood my post. He said that it was climbing out better at a slower speed, or something like that. I am hoping for a full report soon!

With what Mark G. says about thermals & this stuff about climbing better, I'm going to try & get the kit soon. First the 2 place must get done!

[StanFoster]

Mark: I dug this picture out of my Air Command cd. It was your machine at Shelbyville 2003. I remember your soft as kleenex falling touch downs with it.

Stan

[CLS447]

Alot of new people don't know how to display old threads..so............. BUMP !

[GyroRon]

Hey Chris.....

A few more Tats, and longer hair and you could almost pass for the lead singer of the Red hot Chilly Peppers! ;)

[CLS447]

Thanks......I think ?