Students and Prospective Students Please read

[barnstorm2]

Here is the question:

I can not get training near where I live.

I would be willing to travel for training if.....

(check all that apply)

If you are unable/unwilling to travel for training please post why.

If you would like to share other ideas for bringing gyro training 'to the people' please post your idea(s).

[Mike Hook]

Tim I would love to get a chance to get in a week of training because I am to far from any trainer. It would not be cost effecient to make long trips for a few hours at a time. Mentone is a 5 hour drive for me so that would not be to bad but I would go any direction within reason.
Mike

[barnstorm2]

Mike,

I relate to your position so very very well.

I traveled 6 hours round trip for months and months and months. Manytimes unable to train after making the trip because of unexpected winds or weather. Then I would get to return to a significant other that was less then amused with all the time I was spending away on the weekends.

I am not complaining, I really do think I have it very lucky! But we need to get this news (students wanting/needing training) to those who are potential trainers, vendors and those spoiled gyro pilots who got their training (relitively) local :)

Hopefully, we can get vendors, instructors and potential new instructors working together to solve this problem.

[ToddP]

Training, in my opinion, is one of the most difficult hurdles to cross. For training I made two separate trips from Spokane. One to Bensen Days, then in the fall to ROC. I'm guessing 10-11k airline miles getting mine done. There are more options now, with Randy Coplen setting up shop in the Seattle area. However that is still a 5+ hour drive each way.

[barnstorm2]

5 hours each way for you and Mike. I am feeling guilty I had it so easy.

I wish there was some way to get numbers on the people that turned away from gyros and went to FW ULs because of this.

[PW_Plack]

I'd travel to train if I had to, but I'd want to avoid the weeks of the major fly-ins. I'd prefer to pick a week when the instructor was less likely to have such a full schedule.

Two years ago at Bensen Days, I made an morning appointment a day ahead to get an introductory ride with an instructor. He was so booked that when a brief mechanical setback caused a four-hour delay, I was unable to get rescheduled before I had to leave for home. I'm guessing things would have worked out better during a less-busy week.

[Brent_Brown]

I am sure we lost many to other aircraft and sports do to the lack of training and buddies to fly with. Think about it send all this time and money to fly alone and be looked at like you got to be kidding you fly that thing.

[barnstorm2]

I'd travel to train if I had to, but I'd want to avoid the weeks of the major fly-ins. I'd prefer to pick a week when the instructor was less likely to have such a full schedule.

Two years ago at Bensen Days, I made an morning appointment a day ahead to get an introductory ride with an instructor. He was so booked that when a brief mechanical setback caused a four-hour delay, I was unable to get rescheduled before I had to leave for home. I'm guessing things would have worked out better during a less-busy week.

Paul,

Thank you for your input!

I should have clearified alittle better. What I was meaning by this poll was using a dedicated instructor. Not one that was giving intro rides and answering 'what is a gyro' questions.

Look at all the new gyro pilots we could have this year if only we had a training program running at Bdays and not just a intro-ride system.

I was VERY lucky. Steve M and Terry gave me several hours of training at B-Days last year. However, I had to CAMP OUT on the training line waiting for the intro rides to be finished before I could get 'real' training.

The training I am invisioning does not include ANY intro rides by the instructors and I am hoping the instructors will have extra ground support and ground school support also.

[Dean_Dolph]

In looking at the posts/poll again I see why I didn't vote, there wasn't anything to check that covers what I would like. I must be in the minority because I don't see anyone else raising the issue. Being in the minority isn't anything new to me! I feel very strongly about the need for sufficient training and that the lack of availability at a local level (define local to your satisfaction!) is the biggest hurdle that has to be jumped on order to see significant gyro growth.

As usual, I will break my thoughts into several posts since I suffer from not being able to be succinct. I do empathize with you guys when trying to read my posts and want to make it as painless as possible and as easy to reply too as I can.

In order to understand where I'm coming from I believe I have to give you my personal views/beliefs on training. Yeah, I’ve done it before and I found the ladder to my soap box again!

See the following posts and please comment where you see the need.

[Dean_Dolph]

I do not believe that acquiring concentrated training over a week or two is sufficient to create a competent pilot unless the student has prior pilot in command experience.

We all know that a pilot remains a student for ever but some of us will retain an unofficial ‘student’ pilot status for some time after we pass our check ride. Competency comes easily for some and not so easy for others. And apparently no one has been able to design a method of measuring pilot competency. It is a subjective thing and is at the mercy of the instructor, examiner and peers.

When the instructor says you are ready for a check ride you take it. If you pass your check ride you get a certificate. The certificate you hold tells me nothing about your competency. It just says you have met minimum standards. Same with doctors and that is scary!

Just an aside; I also have never believed in the traveling road show instructor who comes to your area and trains a bunch of people over a weekend. I’ve been a party to a couple of these events and I don’t think anyone that participated with me would to it again. They served a purpose at the time but I hope we have moved past that. The training that Brad King provides at Olney, TX. doesn’t fit this description.

[Dean_Dolph]

I do not believe in self training; however the Bensen training method has value in that it pretty much follows all other educational processes in that it builds defined skills one at a time. And then it builds on previous skills learned.

This allows time for the mental process in particular and physical process in general to be assimilated. I know personally that I need time (always have, old age has nothing to do with it!) to reach a point of confidence in any new skill I learn. So, I believe in training that allows time to reflect/assimilate, and then practice what/when possible, between lessons.

[Dean_Dolph]

I believe the training process is a partnership between instructor and student.

This means that a student should expect an honest critique after every lesson and skill assessment at identified check points. And then be given the opportunity to stay at the present level of training, if desired, or a chance to quit and find another hobby.

The problem with this is that it appears that there are a number of people who attach little value to adequate training. Adequate is also a subjective term. We spend thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, of dollars in building and then want to spend as little as possible for training. It seems to me that our priorities are more than a little skewed.

I have tried to get my hands on several well known training syllabus’ but without success. So, what I want out of training may very well be provided. But I do know that what I, and others, which include instructors, have looked at either does not cover all the bases or does not place enough emphasis in certain areas. This is my opinion but one that is also shared by others.

[Dean_Dolph]

I want to make it clear that I think we have competent instructors, some probably more competent that others. But since for the most part they operate with a syllabus that really isn’t a syllabus it is difficult to tell at times whether everything will be covered, where the emphasis is and to compare training methods. So, the student is left to compare training travel time, hourly instructor costs and the testimonials of the other pilots. This is better than nothing, or self training, but it leaves a lot of room for improvement.

There are several instructors who visit here and I welcome their comments. In particular Chuck Roberg’s since he is a new CFI. Chuck was one of the few instructors who provided input and views on the training situation when Chapter 62 was collecting info for a local training system. While Doug Riley isn’t a CFI, as a BFI he also provided info/views and I believe shares a lot of Chapter 62’s views.

Jim Mayfield, what say ye?

I would also like to hear from Michael Stump but apparently he isn't visiting here any more. I've tried to contact him thru this forum by email without success.

While he has taken a lot of heat on this Forum and Norm’s Conference, there is no one more passionate (Doug R. comes close!) about training than Dofin Fritts and he supplied a lot of input/views. Other instructors such as Dan Leslie, Gary Goldsberry and Rusty Nance also have supported improvements in the training process. And I can’t forget Marion Springer’s invaluable observations, input and support. Speaking of Rusty, has anyone heard what is up with him since he left for Iraq?

[Dean_Dolph]

Now to get what I would like.

I want an instructor close enough (no more than three hours driving time) where I can get 1 – 2 hour training sessions and return home the same day.

This allows me to schedule the training as finances and time permit.

It allows me to assimilate the info I’ve received between lessons.

I want an instructor who has a clearly defined training syllabus that I can refer to at home.

I want an honest critique after every lesson and a skill assessment at identified check points.

I would like a choice of training in an open or enclosed machine.

This isn’t a practical expectation at the moment since the student population is small. But there are, or have been, a few instructors that provide this service. Don Farrington in the past and I believe Ron Menzie can now.

I would hope that as the AAI group grows that they see the need/desire for an open machine. It looks like Jim Vanak may have this capability but he serves only one area of the U.S. The AAI group with its growing network of dealers/trainers is in a unique position to affect how training is presented/conducted. They appear to be in a position to take Farrington’s one stop shopping operation to the next level.

[skier]

I live in central NJ and just don't have the time to travel for hours to get training. There is an airport a mile from my house that has fixed wing training which led me to flying fixed wing. Gyros seem like they would be a lot of fun, but I just can't travel very far for the training.

It seems to me like the gyro community needs to bring gyros and gyro instructors to local flight schools that already exist. See if a gyro CFI could work at a flight school and rent his or encourage a flight school to buy a gyro.

[Doug Riley]

Dean, you've seen my syllabus, but I'll attach it here so everyone can see it. Keep in mind that this one is geared specifically to Part 103. It goes light on some issues that are covered in more depth in Sport Pilot and Private Pilot courses.

Now for the rant: It is unreasonable that students should expect there to be a gyroplane instructor at every Wall-Mart. Or even in every state.

There might be a couple thousand gyros flying in the U.S., and there might actually be more like 500. At that rate, this is a RARE activity. An instructor-to-gyronaut-community ratio of, say, 10:1 would starve out most of the instructors. We'd be back to the present ratio in a hurry.

When you need to take master-class lessons on the concert violin, you don't go to your local music store. You take a plane to New York or Chicago and you see the real experts. There just aren't that many of them.

Ditto for something as (compared to gyros) common as sailing boats. You can get a beginner's ride or newbie course in many places, but you have to travel hundreds of miles to get a class in ocean sailing. At least that's what I've found.

You can't snowshoe in Florida, and you can't mountainclimb in Iowa.

I'm afraid that some people are attracted to gyros because they think a gyro means flying-on-the-cheap. They learn that a beginner gyro costs $5K or $10K, they count the cash in their wallets and find $2K, and figure they can finesse the rest later. Often they can't, and have to sell once it's time to pay for an engine or blades. If they do squeak through the build cost, they certainly don't have another $2000 or more that it would take to get them really thorough training (including ground school).

Given this student demographic, most instructors subsidize the customer to some extent by turning off the clock, giving free ground school and unlimited chat time and so on. If you keep doing that, however, it's a recipe for psychological or economic burnout. That keeps the instructor supply small, but the supply is governed by the market's size and expectations.

As I've said before, the only way out that I see is for the manufacturers to have instructor-dealers. This can interfere with instructors' independent judgment regarding their manufacturers' products (and has done so, with deadly results in some cases). At least it pushes some of the instruction cost back into the cost of the tangible product -- which seems more acceptable for some reason. The only other alternative is for the seasoned pilots to subsidize the newbies, which is more or less what's happening now.

Students, you gotta realize that gyroing is a rare and exotic treat, not mass-produced entertainment. If you want a consumer video game, buy one. Even Disney World is not right around the corner for most of us.

So, please don't bellyache about having to take a couple of weekend trips, or a week-long one, and certainly don't nickel-dime your poor old windburned instructor. Just about every one of them that I know is cutting students breaks at every turn.

[Doug Riley]

The file won't upload. I'll try again...

Nope. Apparently the software won't accept a file that's ever been posted before.

Ha. Fooled it.

[Cobra Doc]

According to my records, there are three Instruction and Rental gyros for every Pleasure gyro. I'm glad I don't have to rely on gyro insurance for a living!!
If it ever happens that I find myself making aircraft and I have a dedicated CFI staff. The first CFI fired would be the one that didn't tell me my aircraft wasn't right!!

[Dean_Dolph]

Doug, I can't see anything in your 'rant' that anyone can dispute and I would bet that other instructors are applauding . But, it also hard to ignore that the lack of local instruction has had an impact on gyro growth. But then again, do we really want the community to grow? If it weren’t for the fact that there would be more respect with larger numbers, and with PRA growth there would be more funds to provide more services, then I’m not sure that being a part of a small unique family isn’t kinda nice!

What we have is a chicken or the egg scenario. In order to have more instructors we need more students and to have more students we need more instructors. I keep thinking (which is dangerous!) that there must be a point where one or the other part of that equation will grow large enough to cause the other part to grow.

What you have brought out is the reality of the situation and it isn’t likely that the instructor base will grow much until AAI and others establish a network of local training centers.

Even then what we will get is brand specific training which is better than nothing but to my way of thinking a training center needs machines of more than one configuration. The way it is now makes it even tougher that there isn’t local instruction because that means the closest instructor may only offer training in an enclosed machine or an open machine. And Murphy’s law says that whatever machine the student owns isn’t going to be of the type the closest instructor has available. And the tractor owner has a specially hard row to hoe.

Maybe training in one configuration and then owning/flying another isn’t a big deal. But something tells me that a newbie will expend more effort transitioning when the training machine is different from what is owned. And that transition will be more fraught with peril.

I hope our newbie members have taken note of your views on costs because it is my belief that this has been a large contributing factor in our safety incidents. The cart gets put before the horse, so to speak, and training isn’t budgeted for up front. Consequently it gets short changed when the time comes. Not good. I would also like to point out that when looking at your, or others, syllabus that the number of lessons shown probably doesn’t represent the number of hours that will be required for competency.

[Doug Riley]

Dean -- right, there's no correlation between a "lesson" on the syllabus and an hour of instruction. The whole syllabus takes much more than 7 hours to get through for all but people with very similar, recent experience -- say, in a Quicksilver.

I'd suggest that factory flight schools keep an open-frame machine kicking around for those students who want it.

In fact, I'd suggest (brief commercial message) that one of them buy mine. I'm getting out of instruction for the reasons I already ranted about, plus the general hassle factor.

[Dean_Dolph]

......It seems to me like the gyro community needs to bring gyros and gyro instructors to local flight schools that already exist. See if a gyro CFI could work at a flight school and rent his or encourage a flight school to buy a gyro.There have been times in the past when instructors at Helicopter Sevices at Hooks Airport here in Houston have shown an interest in becoming gyro instructors but to date nothing has come of it. PRA Chapter 62 used to meet in one of their class rooms occasionally so that is why there was an interest. We haven't met there in several years so that interest has probably died off.

While I don't know of anyone that has approached a flight school about providing gyro training, I have my doubts if they would be interested because the number of students would be very low. The effect on their bottom line would be offset by costs of investment in instructor training and acquiring machines. Consequently, positive cash flow would be a long time coming. Before we can think about creating a gyro instructor/flight school relationship we have to have the instructors!

[PW_Plack]

I approached a local flight school about providing gyroplane training, just ground school, and they were interested. The 90 per cent of their existing syllabus that's the same as airplanes could have been augmented by about three classes that were gyro-specific.

Unfortunately, flight schools which operate under Part 141 cannot offer instruction to the lower Part 61 standards in the same facility, so they'd have been required to seek Part 141 approval for the gyroplane course. Also, unless they got access to a certificated gyro, they couldn't offer dual flight instruction, which is where instructors make their money. I'm sure that insurability would have become an issue if they'd reached that point.

Doug nailed it...an Iowan who wanted to mountain-climb would have more money budgeted for one serious climb than many of us want to spend on a flying machine.

[Scotty]

Ok guys

I'm going to try to offer something of value here. Nothing I am about to say is intended to offend or dimune anyone or anyone's avocation or vocation. Hows that for a disclamer.

First consider that flying (PPL etc) is about the same as Ham Radio. Its "MOSTLY" a hobby that one can find a few business uses for and even some humanitarian uses. Ham radio was ALL about learning and then building then communicating. It is just about a dead avocation now. Damn near NO newbies just a bunch of us old farts sitting around complaining about the state of Ham Radio or how bad our bowels are. Nobody builds anymore and even less do anything other than listen. Ham Radio was a govenrment project to advance the state of the art, then encourage newbies with mentors and etc. to keep them interested and increase the supply of electrical and electronic engineers in the US. Today its a dead horse.

Private aviation was right after WWII given a boost by lots of surplus aircraft and an increasing demand for 4 engine jocks to fly for the airlines. Today the demand for commercial pilots can nearly be met in whole by existing commercial flight schools. The military grabs all the young folks who are burning up to fly something. Folks who don't want to go military still go to local flight schools, if they or their folks are part owner of Monsanto or an heir to the Mellons. My point being that the HEY-DAYS of private aviation are over. There are still days left but its all on the down slope not on the upslope or at the peak.

When I started to do my PPL some years ago I planned maybe $2500 or a bit more, but was looking at a Skylane, 180, or 185. I already knew what I wanted and wanted to do with it. The cost of training to the aircraft was truely miniscule. Ok times changed, my life changed, I went back to doing Field Engineering overseas. NOW I am looking at actually getting to build/buy/fly a gyro. I have loved these things since the first Bensens hit Popular Mechanix. HOWEVER

I look at what I need to do to get training. First if I build an unltralight I can hang it up cause there are no two place ultralights. I weigh a lot so a Ultralight is likely not a real option anyway, so that means Experimental or certified. Still a used machine can be had for under 20 some thousand. Training however isn't even close to what I feel I need. I dont want to train in say a TwinStar if I'm going to be flying a LW4-5. Being new there may be little difference, but I "PERCEIVE" there is little in common. Its like trying to train on a C-172 to fly a Taylorcraft. There are some things that can get ya into trouble right off the bat.

I keep hearing that Manufacturer training is bad, but I can see a value here. Yeh we all know that "Brand-X" is FOS, but arent they the EXCEPTION rather than the norm? If I know I'm going to fly Ron's LW4-5 It would make sense to me to get training in the same aircraft and the most likely place to get that would be from the factory. Granted there isn't one, just making a point.

I see all this as like trying to make a patchwork quilt, hundreds of little ideas to patch things up and it can be beautiful in the end, but man what an effort to get there. It seems to me that if we want to get things moving we need to put the carts after not before the horse. Training BEFORE purchase or build. Nope theres no rentals out at MLB, hmm imagine that. I go to look for a Flight Sim or even a plugin to MS FLight Sim, and nope, nothing there either. Link Sims used to be really so expensive only a flight school could afford them, but today software for any graphics oriented computer can get you in past the intro point to flying. I really believe we need to first get a flight sim working that can be purchased or shareware. Theres probably lots of reasons this isnt practical, but what IS practical about Gyros.

I like the idea of "Summer Camps" (or winter) that get ya from nothing to solo in one multi week whatever it takes to get it done session. Once a year is fine. I certainly am not wealthy but I don't mind paying for what I get either. With the one caviet, that its MY money and I get what I pay for. Ground school needs to have a computer based class that leads to a Student License at the end with no FAA office visits etc. The FAA is WAY WAY WAY behind the power curve here. The FAA will allow other companies to do classroom weekend training then test and sign ya off for Student. Nothing new to the concept.

As far as making a living out of Experimental or Ultralight Gyros, I just dont see making much of a go at it. Were just too small. I am so sympathetic to all this cause I have watched Ron bring the LW along and its has literally taken years and years out of his life to get it to where it is now and there is still no kit or ready made craft to purchase. Its just a function of the smallness of our "sport/hobby". I think really the only answer is that its a small niche and theres not much money it it. It is always going to be a self help and what does get done will be done for altruistic reasons more than financial gain. Maybe I'm short sighted but I just dont see it changing any in that respect say in the next 50 years.

This isn't doomsaying, its just identifying what I PERCEIVE to be the obvious. This may well be as good as it gets. So yes I'll travel, I'll stay over, Ill beg, Ill visit , I'll even make contributions here and there, otherwise It ain't gona happen.

I'd say step one is to get a viable calibrated Flight Sim working with plugins for different craft.

Scotty

[Joe]

Are there any instructors fairly close to Omaha, Nebraska

[Resasi]

Interesting comments from people who have been in the sport a long time.

Just a cent and that's all it's worth. Over here we have a situation where the new breed of factory gyros started coming in. They were sleek sexy and far more capable than the older generation. They were being advertised by guys who knew how to market these machines. Who provided schools a professional syllabus,and place where one could do some concentrated training if required, and there was a big surge in pilots who wanted to buy these two seat tourers and go places.

But the price of these machines is pretty high, right up there with the fixed wing crowd, and the training, well that was too. There are a lot around, but they seem to be a different breed. It seems that the single seat home built crowd that fly the pastures with some yanking and banking, and the ability to do it without breaking the average bank is dying out here.

There has been a struggle to keep single seat training available, for the ones who seemed to be that grass roots group who wanted that training, but those instructors who are able and willing to do that are getting pretty thin on the ground. Those who did it, not so much for the money but the love of gyro flying. It is a rare sport, and parts of it, getting rarer.

If people want things bad enough, they will go to extraordinary lengths to get it. It is harder for some than others, but for now at least, instruction can be had. Tim is putting feelers out on what most people want, and with that information, hopefully training facilities that appeal to a majority and can be set up in a way that is best for both Instructors and students. To keep the sport alive: lets all hope it works out well.

[feedpro]

Please stop using a group of letters for words. Am I the only one who doesn't have the foggest idea what FOS means and all the other letters that that are used to convey information.

This is a good subject matter.

[WHY]

Hi Karl

I think it meas "full of **** "

Tony

[WHY]

For those who are thinking about a taildragger tractor I will repeat what Ron Herron said to me some time ago. " If"-------you do not have any taildragger time, try to find someone giving some training in a taildragger fixed wing, even if it is an ultralight, just to get the experience of handling a taildragger on the ground, in the air it does not make any difference. Then get up to solo in a Pusher style gyro to mainly learn rotor handling and to meet the solo hours requirement and after that you are going to need your own tractor for "specific" experience training, because there is going to be some difference in taildragger gyro handling for sure !!!

This is the way I went except I already had over 100 hrs in a taildragger fixed wing. I got up to solo in a pusher and then stopped until I get my tractor finished, Of course I will probably need some refresher in the Pusher as some time will have passed.

Tony

[Fly Army]

So from the looks of this survey (obviously taken over seven years ago) the vast majority would prefer something near a popular vacation spot. This makes sense and makes selling the whole idea a lot more palatable to a family, they've got something to do while dad or mom is learning to fly. So now let's refine this a little further - where are the most popular family vacation spots for us here in the U.S. ? It seems to me that something right outside of Orlando, Florida would do quite well and there are a plethora of small airports very near from which to base an operation from, and no I don't really consider Wauchula to be close enough.

As for the rest of the U.S. I think an ideal metric would be an operation that is no more than say forty five minutes driving time from a major airport yet also near something of interest for the other family members. Additionally while I am very much a fan of the snazzy European gyros it would probably be more appropriate to have some kind of an open frame machine since that is what the vast majority of students will be going back to fly. And in a perfect (fantasy) world have some of the Magni's and Auto-Gyros available to rent.

Having been a F/W CFI since 1990 I fully realize that an operation of this sort would probably be lucky (actually very lucky) just to break even financially. So honestly this would be more suited to someone who is doing it in his/her retirement or with some kind of a job that has large blocks of time off such as a firefighter or airline pilot who wanted to advance the sport yet still be able to write-off the cost of his/her flying in the process.

Really the biggest overall stumbling block to our whole dilemma is the lack of the ability to rent a gyro. That is where our we differ from our other flying brethren and is this sports single biggest detractor IMHO. Think about it, you can obtain a pilot license to fly an airplane or even a helicopter WITHOUT HAVING TO BUY OR BUILD ONE YOURSELF ! Imagine where fixed wing general aviation would be today if this was the case in their world ?

When I started seeing the combination or the snazzy European designs starting to come over some years ago corresponding almost perfectly with the birth of the Sport Pilot/LSA movement I had a glimmer of hope. Having lived (and actually born) in Germany I am somewhat familiar with what it takes to get ANYTHING certified in that country (you should see the paperwork you have to go thru just to get a trailer hitch put on your vehicle !). Why for the life of me any Gyro that they (the Germans) would approve and actually be okay with can't get our FAA's approval is genuinely BAFFLING to me ! I know all too well from having flown with him that Greg Greminger has been fighting the good fight on this front for some time now and I wish him all the best as really I see the acceptance of serial built machines that individuals can go and rent and get a rating in as being the key piece of the puzzle that gets us all out of the shadows into the light of mainstream aviation.

[Resasi]

Randolph I think has raised probably the main reason why the sport is pretty niche, why it has been the way it has been, and why it seems to be picking up in Europe. The fact that most of us have had to build our machine, while in Europe they can be bought from the factory and/or hired.

A place to build, train, and family vacation is not a new idea, have discussed it with at leat two people in the US who are possibly going to try it.

A place where a person can schedule some time, then buy a kit in a location where he can build it, either have mom and the kids join in for a family project, or have somewhere fun for them to go while he is building/learning to fly.

At this mythical location which is ideal for year round flying, there would be all the tools required, with an A&P who is familiar with the kit, on hand to oversee and give advice on the spot as you build. There would be an airstrip handy where during the build period the person could receive training on the type of machine they are building. You can take a break from building and get an hour or so of ground school, or flying, because there would also be an Instructor on tap, along with a DAR who could be scheduled to come and inspect the gyro when it was finished.

Sound like Shangri-La? At least two people are contemplating this type of scenario. Claudius Klimpt and John, All-In. They want to see a similar set-up that would cut down on the time element of people wanting to build and fly their own machines in minimal time. John's is the single seat Genesis while Claudius's project is with the ArrowCopter that he recently built together with his sons.

Both machines are top of their respective catagories in terms of design and performance. Both are new machines. Both I think ideal in terms of one being at the affordable end, while the ArrowCopter I think is at the highest end of what is presently available.

It is a concept that may well be feasible, but as Randolph pointed out it may take someone who is retired, and has the time money drive and desire to make it work. Both the gentlemen mentioned I think fit that catagory, I for one really do hope that these ideas can come to fruition, it could be a huge shot in the arm for the sport

[All_In]

Leigh and I had about the same idea has he shared it with me when I first became the US agent for Aviomania Aircraft. A vacation for the family in San Diego for building and training year round. PRA31.org is well on it way towards this goal!!!

See PRA31.org (http://www.PRA31.org)for more info on our program.

It is designed to reduce the fixed cost of the aircraft to $37.00 per hour if only flown 4 hours per weekend or 32 hours per month.

The cost goes down if flown more = 120 hours per month = $10.00 per hour fixed cost.

It will become the cheapest way to learn to fly = not just rotorcraft so it should attracted Fixed Wingers too and maybe convert them to rotorcraft once they learn about safety and fun to be had?

We will be advertizing this training for new PRA 31 members just as soon as it is built however, it has already doubled our membership just announcing the dream!

The traveling trainer is about 1/2 funded as of today and we have several chapters and perhaps PRA itself voting on becoming a co-owner with us allowing them to have possession for the same number of days as their percentage of ownership.

If PRA becomes a co-owner it means whenever a group of students from any chapter has a group of members to be trained that we will ship it to that chapter and about 75% of the instructors that were at Mentone gave me there cards to participate in the program with us as your instructor. It will also be at all the fly-in's we can make so any PRA member would be able to fly her there once signed off by one of our instructors.

If your chapter would like to get in on this see the presentation here to learn more... http://www.pra31.org/Co-ownership.aspx

PS:
I would be happy to hold a conference call to answer any questions the presentation doesn't when you present it to your chapter's members, just let me know when!

[Fly Army]

John,
Your program sounds excellent but I am curious is there a Gyroplane Designated Pilot Examiner in your area ?
Cheers,
Randy

[All_In]

John,
Your program sounds excellent but I am curious is there a Gyroplane Designated Pilot Examiner in your area ?
Cheers,
Randy
Hi Randy!!

Yes there is in Torrence, but he is not active for years. He has agreed to join PRA 31 and be one of 3 instructors that live in southern Ca but cannot afford to buy a two place trainer as the market is so small it will not pay for itself. Currently they are all making a living instructing in FW and helicopters.

This way the bird is free, to instructors, and they charge only for instructions making it 100 percent profit with no risk of damage or expenses for the aircraft.

[Vance]

Hi Randy!!

Yes there is in Torrence, but he is not active for years. He has agreed to join PRA 31 and be one of 3 instructors that live in southern Ca but cannot afford to buy a two place trainer as the market is so small it will not pay for itself. Currently they are all making a living instructing in FW and helicopters.

This way the bird is free, to instructors, and they charge only for instructions making it 100 percent profit with no risk of damage or expenses for the aircraft.

Hello John,

Are you sure the gentleman in Torrance is a gyroplane specific designated examiner?

I understood there were only three gyroplane specigic designated examiners in the USA.

Thank you, Vance

[All_In]

Hello John,

Are you sure the gentleman in Torrance is a gyroplane specific designated examiner?

I understood there were only three gyroplane specigic designated examiners in the USA.

Thank you, Vance
Hi Vance, I know I've been told this before.

But he claims he is or WAS! He hasn't been able to afford to train in gyro's for over ten years.

I do not know if they lapse from lack of use or what?

[All_In]

Also is Terry Brant a DPE? I believe he is but doesn't have an aircraft to train in. Our aircraft would solve both of his problems and we can fly her to Arizona very easily and will use him too.

[Fly Army]

we can fly her to Arizona very easily

A flight such as that has the potential to be awesome when I think about the topography between those two destinations ! I once led a flight of two AH-1S Cobra's from Denver to just North of Tucson (Marana) and never got above 700' AGL. Wish we would have had Go-Pro video back then, but then again it might have been used as evidence. We did a great deal to promote the myth of "The Black Helicopters" on that flight.

[j bird]

I checked the FAA web site on registered gyro examiners, there are only 4 registered examiners in the country.

Ron Menzie, SPE, Arkansas.
Terry Brandt, SPE, SFIE, Arizona.
Jim Mayfield, SPE, SFIE, PE, Arizona.
David Johnson,SPE, SFIE, New Mexico.

[Resasi]

John, great to see how that idea is developing. You have really put some work into it.

Just as a matter of interest, how long does it take you to get to Zamperini just by Rancho Palos Verdes?

[SandL]

HI
AS leigh points out there has been a huge change here in the UK
I started learning about 10 years ago, there were just 2 instructors available to me within 200 miles driving distance.
there was much debate, do we need more instructors ?, do the instructors need more students ? etc. I remember asking how do I learn? , I have a trial flight then was told if you want a licence you have to go build one... I am no engineer so the only choice I had was to buy one someone else had built.
Anyway... jumping to the chase... the number of registered gyroplanes in the UK has doubled in the last 5 years, there are several gyroplane schools set up across the UK, most people have an instructor within just 50 miles from their home !
so what caused this huge step change ? and what are the good points and what are the bad points ?

next post

[SandL]

Enter Autogyro Europe and the MT03
The machine had a very high price tag (50,000 plus)campared with my little Bensen at about £8,000
It looked really good. lots of Bling, Easy to learn to fly, safest gyro in the world, section T compliant etc. (see the promo Youtube video) It was backed by lots of effective marketing in all the major aviation magazenes. This became the fastest growing area of aviation. They could not produce them fast enough. The first buyers (often from a microlight flight instruction background) quickly added their hours and set up a gyro flight school to teach all these new buyers. Charging over £100 per hour, they quickly got a return on their investment. I dont know how true it is but I think some buyers were given a credit against training in order to secure the sale. The BRA (like the PRA) was taken over by "the new generation" of gyroplane owners. Just google the GYRO EXPERIENCE to see the map of UK gyroplane schools that popped up overnight.
Some of these new gyroplane instructors made very good money during this time, but more recently as machine sales have slowed it is rumored that these schools are running out of students as the inisial boom in sales has slowed. Hull Insurance for the under-training solo student is now almost impossible, with a £7,000 deposit to cover the hull insurance excess being asked for before you fly a "club" machine.
What happens next ? well, as sales of new machines decline I guess more instructors will pull out and we will return to almost where we were with a few extra instructors scratching a living. machines with be traded on, new variations will come out (MtO sport, Calidus etc,) machines will need repairing, and maintaining, so it will all keep going but at a lower level than we have seen in the last 5 years.
So if you want to grow the market, you need a manufacturer to throw marketing money at it inorder to sell their machines, this will create a demand for instructors, who can then make good money at training.
gyro instructor in every US state ... possible.... but take care, there is a down side to all this. I don't' want to post negitave comments so will end there.

[All_In]

I checked the FAA web site on registered gyro examiners, there are only 4 registered examiners in the country.

Ron Menzie, SPE, Arkansas.
Terry Brandt, SPE, SFIE, Arizona.
Jim Mayfield, SPE, SFIE, PE, Arizona.
David Johnson,SPE, SFIE, New Mexico.

OK I think I understand the confusion now?

What is a SPE is that a sport pilot examiner?

To get a gyroplane add-on to my pilots license I need a DPE right?
This instructor is a DPE not an SPE whatever that is.

[All_In]

John, great to see how that idea is developing. You have really put some work into it.

Just as a matter of interest, how long does it take you to get to Zamperini just by Rancho Palos Verdes?

Hi Buddy! Yes I've got 8 months of 20 hour days of my life in this project so far and counting...

It takes 54 minuets to get to Zamperini = Torrance CA if I can go direct, however it's through are TCA and flying over MCAS Miramar airport they always vector me around so expect 1 hour and 15 minutes.

If you are there I'll come a fly'n to see you anytime you are in town!!

[All_In]

A flight such as that has the potential to be awesome when I think about the topography between those two destinations ! I once led a flight of two AH-1S Cobra's from Denver to just North of Tucson (Marana) and never got above 700' AGL. Wish we would have had Go-Pro video back then, but then again it might have been used as evidence. We did a great deal to promote the myth of "The Black Helicopters" on that flight.
Oops Randy I almost missed your post!

Man I would have given anything to be on that flight!!! :hail:

And you are so correct it is awesome topography and looking forward to flying over it in a gyroplane!

[Chuck Roberg]

What is a SPE is that a sport pilot examiner? Yes

To get a gyroplane add-on to my pilots license I need a DPE right?
This instructor is a DPE not an SPE whatever that is. To get a Gyroplane add-on at a Recreational Pilot or higher then yes you need a DPE.

If you want a Sport Pilot add-on for Gyroplane then you need 2 CFI's. One is the recommending CFI. The other CFI administers the oral test and the proficiency check.

[All_In]

Yes

To get a Gyroplane add-on at a Recreational Pilot or higher then yes you need a DPE.

If you want a Sport Pilot add-on for Gyroplane then you need 2 CFI's. One is the recommending CFI. The other CFI administers the oral test and the proficiency check.
You are the best Buddy!!!

OK so we will use our Torrence instructor for private pilots who want the add-on to their PPL and Terry for newbies without any license seeking a sport pilot licensee?

[Texasautogyro]

What a discussion. Speaking only for myself, at the events I fly at I only do lessons if I charge. If I fly youth you can hardly call it a lesson if they are under 15. In this case they are free as they should be or a donation to the local club.

At Mentone this year I flew many training flights for 30 min or more. All from the front hands on. If anyone did not fly I still had time. So complaints from people about not getting time this year from a CFI are not well founded. Some left home early for lack of students.

After Mentone I traveled to Wichita Kansas area for a week and was swamped. This week I am in San Antonio totally booked. Monday back home to Tomball Texas Totally booked.

I am very happy to go to students if they want and do all of the time to help make things happen for them.

Flight schools sometimes just can't see the big picture. I have offered many to train an instructor for fuel only just to get another CFI local to help me. They only passively talk about it but after A year of seeing me fly all the time they are dazed and now take me more serious.

Now a can of worms. I let my students in some cases Solo my MTO when they are ready. I feel this gives them the total confidence they need. You can see such a boost and let's them know I trust them with my Baby.

Now tell me if anyone else jumps out and then says fly me Some laps.

[Dean_Dolph]

.... I let my students in some cases Solo my MTO when they are ready. I feel this gives them the total confidence they need. You can see such a boost and let's them know I trust them with my Baby.

Now tell me if anyone else jumps out and then says fly me Some laps.Desmon, this tells me that you have a lot of confidence in your machine, your training method and proficiency evaluation. Marion Springer is the only other CFI that I know of who let students solo in the machine they trained in. She said she soloed somewhere around 100 students in her side by side Air Command and not one student put a scratch in it.

[Fly Army]

I let my students in some cases Solo my MTO when they are ready. I feel this gives them the total confidence they need. You can see such a boost and let's them know I trust them with my Baby.

Now tell me if anyone else jumps out and then says fly me Some laps.

Desmond,
That's they way I used to do it in the fixed wing world with my students. It's just like building a treehouse - at some point you have to trust your work. BTW that was me trying to schedule with you last week when I was in town to get my "beatings" over at the Continental Simulator. I'll try again next month as IAH will be my new base for awhile.
Fly Safe,
Randy

[Chuck Roberg]

Desmon, this tells me that you have a lot of confidence in your machine, your training method and proficiency evaluation. Marion Springer is the only other CFI that I know of who let students solo in the machine they trained in. She said she soloed somewhere around 100 students in her side by side Air Command and not one student put a scratch in it.

Don Randle would solo students in his Air Command. I would solo transitioning students in my Gyro with a Pilots Certificate.

[Resasi]

As an Instructor who has soloed many students, and trusted enough that my training is sound enough for them not to kill themselves, I think that trusting them not to ding the machine should be a relatively easy add-on. if you don't trust them in your machine what does it say about your training.

I will qualify that by saying, my student from ab initio, a building is only as good as it's foundations. And yes, there are some students who one has to say no to. The ones who regretfully you also have to tell, 'this sport is not for you!'

[All_In]

What a discussion. Speaking only for myself, at the events I fly at I only do lessons if I charge. If I fly youth you can hardly call it a lesson if they are under 15. In this case they are free as they should be or a donation to the local club.

At Mentone this year I flew many training flights for 30 min or more. All from the front hands on. If anyone did not fly I still had time. So complaints from people about not getting time this year from a CFI are not well founded. Some left home early for lack of students.

After Mentone I traveled to Wichita Kansas area for a week and was swamped. This week I am in San Antonio totally booked. Monday back home to Tomball Texas Totally booked.

I am very happy to go to students if they want and do all of the time to help make things happen for them.

Flight schools sometimes just can't see the big picture. I have offered many to train an instructor for fuel only just to get another CFI local to help me. They only passively talk about it but after A year of seeing me fly all the time they are dazed and now take me more serious.

Now a can of worms. I let my students in some cases Solo my MTO when they are ready. I feel this gives them the total confidence they need. You can see such a boost and let's them know I trust them with my Baby.

Now tell me if anyone else jumps out and then says fly me Some laps.
...And you are the MAN = U-ROCK for traveling so much and we appreciate you more than you know!!!

[Texasautogyro]

Desmond,
That's they way I used to do it in the fixed wing world with my students. It's just like building a treehouse - at some point you have to trust your work. BTW that was me trying to schedule with you last week when I was in town to get my "beatings" over at the Continental Simulator. I'll try again next month as IAH will be my new base for awhile.
Fly Safe,
Randy

I am sorry things did not work out when you called. Gyro training is all I do full time and will be sure to try to help in any way.

We have a great group of PRA CFI's around. Any one of them are qualified to do a safe and thorough job.

[Roundwing]

Really the biggest overall stumbling block to our whole dilemma is the lack of the ability to rent a gyro. That is where our we differ from our other flying brethren and is this sports single biggest detractor IMHO. Think about it, you can obtain a pilot license to fly an airplane or even a helicopter WITHOUT HAVING TO BUY OR BUILD ONE YOURSELF ! Imagine where fixed wing general aviation would be today if this was the case in their world ?



I agree with FA.

What ever is holding up the regulations for the FAA to approve certification of Sport pilot gyroplanes needs to be settled so that factory built machines can be purchased and then used for instruction and rental.

This the the major stumbling block for our sport to grow.

Having met and talked with Kai Bode in Germany and seeing the number of factory built gyros over there for him to rent was an eye opener.

There are a lot of people of who would like to fly gyros but have no desire to build their own and put up with the hassle of storage and maintenance.

Rick

[Brent Drake]

At this time I'm not sure of any manufacturer that is trying to get a gyroplane certified. It's very expensive and time consuming.

[Fly Army]

At this time I'm not sure of any manufacturer that is trying to get a gyroplane certified. It's very expensive and time consuming.

Which is frustrating when you think about it because the only thing fixed wing LSA's have to do is claim that their production methods and facilities subscribe to the ASTM standards and BOOM - they're in business ! What could be more simple and business friendly ? Not so for gyros. Back in 2007 when I flew a Magni with Greg Greminger I know he was fighting for this but I'm not sure whatever became of it. Sounded like a real battle to me back then.

[Resasi]

Certifying a gyro anywhere these days is tough...and very expensive. Ask Chris who was intimately concerned with the certificatation of the AC10 in Austria. How many manuals, the paperwork concerned. It was huge.

How does that relate to possible returns? In the US possibly some as a kit built experimental. UK everything is at a standstill. And that goes for most of the major Europen manufacturer's products.

Bad times!

SA, Australia, and Europe possibly the main target. USA, very large, but, certification? UK certification?

Where will the most machines sell? How much will the gyro manufacturer have to pay to sell there? That is the bottom line.

At present the US certification process is difficult, the UK's section T, which the AC20 was built to conform to, very expensive in relation to how many could be sold there.
Which leaves the previously mentioned places as being where autogyro flying is expanding.

[Doug Riley]

To clarify a bit about U.S. certification: a standard type certificate (STC) is extremely expensive to obtain, but it can be done with enough money at hand. The McCulloch J-2 and Air & Space 18A both are certified under this system.

Launching a gyro as a factory-finished light sport aircraft (LSA) is not expensive/difficult; it's impossible. The FAA does not allow LSA gyros. Period.

Greg's efforts to change the FAA's mind about this lasted for years. He may still be at it, quietly.

The effort faced huge challenges because (1) people within the government regulatory community pointed to the awful historic safety record of homebuilt gyros as evidence that we yahoos didn't know what we were doing, and (2) there seemed to be a lack of consensus among those already in the gyro kit/training business about how to improve safety. We had silly arguments among ourselves in which a certain element claimed that horizontal stabilizers were unnecessary if not "dangerous." We proposed test standards that turned out not to be 100% effective at smoking out known unstable gyros. Some competent designer-manufacturers felt that a standard without a prescription for stabilizer location and size was bound to fail.

The last I heard about the process was that the FAA said: "Implement your proposed standards on homebuilt gyros for now. Let's see if adherence to your standards improves the safety record among the homebuilts. Then we can talk about allowing LSA gyros."

[Brent Drake]

To clarify a bit about U.S. certification: a standard type certificate (STC) is extremely expensive to obtain, but it can be done with enough money at hand. The McCulloch J-2 and Air & Space 18A both are certified under this system.

Launching a gyro as a factory-finished light sport aircraft (LSA) is not expensive/difficult; it's impossible. The FAA does not allow LSA gyros. Period.

Greg's efforts to change the FAA's mind about this lasted for years. He may still be at it, quietly.

The effort faced huge challenges because (1) people within the government regulatory community pointed to the awful historic safety record of homebuilt gyros as evidence that we yahoos didn't know what we were doing, and (2) there seemed to be a lack of consensus among those already in the gyro kit/training business about how to improve safety. We had silly arguments among ourselves in which a certain element claimed that horizontal stabilizers were unnecessary if not "dangerous." We proposed test standards that turned out not to be 100% effective at smoking out known unstable gyros. Some competent designer-manufacturers felt that a standard without a prescription for stabilizer location and size was bound to fail.

The last I heard about the process was that the FAA said: "Implement your proposed standards on homebuilt gyros for now. Let's see if adherence to your standards improves the safety record among the homebuilts. Then we can talk about allowing LSA gyros."

Thanks Doug for the great post. Right to the point.

[Fly Army]

To clarify a bit about U.S. certification: a standard type certificate (STC) is extremely expensive to obtain, but it can be done with enough money at hand. The McCulloch J-2 and Air & Space 18A both are certified under this system.

Launching a gyro as a factory-finished light sport aircraft (LSA) is not expensive/difficult; it's impossible. The FAA does not allow LSA gyros. Period.

Greg's efforts to change the FAA's mind about this lasted for years. He may still be at it, quietly.

The effort faced huge challenges because (1) people within the government regulatory community pointed to the awful historic safety record of homebuilt gyros as evidence that we yahoos didn't know what we were doing, and (2) there seemed to be a lack of consensus among those already in the gyro kit/training business about how to improve safety. We had silly arguments among ourselves in which a certain element claimed that horizontal stabilizers were unnecessary if not "dangerous." We proposed test standards that turned out not to be 100% effective at smoking out known unstable gyros. Some competent designer-manufacturers felt that a standard without a prescription for stabilizer location and size was bound to fail.

The last I heard about the process was that the FAA said: "Implement your proposed standards on homebuilt gyros for now. Let's see if adherence to your standards improves the safety record among the homebuilts. Then we can talk about allowing LSA gyros."


Yes, thanks for posting this. Brings me up to speed on the problem. How about this then - we point at the Europeans Magni, Auto-Gyro, ELA etc and say to the FAA "Looks like they're doing as well as or better than any of the Fixed Wing LSAs , why hold us back and hold yourselves back from creating additional inspector positions ?". Just a random thought.

[GyroDoug]

Just for the record (and for anyone that wasn't at the PRA Convention this year in Mentone). We have a bunch of new Gyro CFI's that are available and that have machines with LODAs and there has never been an easier time to get training in a Gyro (at least in the last 10 years). Anyone that walked away from Mentone without geting the training they were looking for, (this year) really wasn't trying to get it.

While we are still a long ways from their being a Gyro CFI in every State, there are more than we have had for years and the truth is there aren't currently enough students going to keep them all busy, all the time, so now is the time to step up and make the committment to get some training. I haven't trained with all of them yet, but I have taken training from several of them and I have been very satisfied with the quality of training that is available. But if we want to keep them all active we have got to give them some business so that they can afford to stay in the industry. It truly is a good time to be learning to fly a Gyro.