Instruction rates ARE fair

[GyroRon]

I being the major cheapskate I am, have made several comments over the years on the forums about the high price or rates gyro instructors charge for their time. Like anyone else I like to save a buck and more so, I would like to see the rates as low as possible so more people can afford to get training and hence make our sport larger and safer overall.

I got a private email from a instructor recently that opened my eyes to his side of the story. Explaining the large amounts of money spent to become a gyro CFI and to obtain and maintain his training machine. And most importantly the risk he places on himself and his estate by taking on the responsibilty of insuring a safe flight to all his students and passengers.

I like to make comparisons and I have made comparisons to fixed wing often. I know you can learn to flly and get your pilots license easier and cheaper in fixed wing than in gyroplanes. Just as you can get your gyro license for less than a helicopter license. The main reason for this is there is so many places offering rental planes at cheap prices and there is so many fixed wing instructors that will fly cheap since they are just wanting to log hours to hopefully one day be a airline pilot.

But in reality most of the people that go for their fixed wing license still end up paying close to what the gyro CFI charges. At my airport - which has the absolute cheapest rates in the area - the Piper Archer rents for close to 85$ per hobbs hour wet. The instructor fees are another 25-30$ on top of that. This puts the average student out 110$- 115$ per hour of dual instruction. Most airports in our area charge 40$ for the instructor and the planes there usually rent for a few bucks more as well, so the student there is likely to pay the 120-130$ per hour most gyro CFIs charge.

Most gyro CFIs do not have insurance to cover their machine if it crashes while used for training purposes. Most rental planes used in fixed wing do carry some insurance to cover the repairs and any property damage they cause.

And it is fair to mention that most gyro instructors spend about twice the time on the ground as opposed to in the air..... getting to the airport, preflighting the gyro, planning the days lesson and flight, getting weather reports, pre flight ground schooling and post flight ground schooling, and then the drive home, etc... So for the 120$ you paid them for that one hour, they got 2 or more hours of making nothing.

At my airport, the instructors get to the airport and get paid the momment they arrive. they get paid a rate for ground instruction - anything they do with the student not in the air is billable as ground instruction - then they fly and get their higher rate and then when they land, more ground instruction.... then they go right over to the next student who has been waiting and so on and so on all day long.

Anyway I just wanted to point out that the rates are not out of line, and although I would like to see the rates go down, I can understand why if they don't.

[GyroRon]

I do want to add one more thing. I do not believe the gyro BFIs - ultralight instructors should be charging the same rates as gyro CFIs. It is their business and they can run it how they choose, but your CFi has spent more money to become a instructor and he is able to log time in your log book for you that counts. To me that is worth a price difference between the two.

[skyguynca]

I totally agree Ron, well said

[Timchick]

What are the differences in getting trained by a BFI or CFI?

[Timchick]

Never mind. I just saw the description in the other thread.

[KenSandyEggo]

What beat up 152, 172 or Tomahawk costs $350,000 to replace? If you meant $35,000, check out the total costs to build a fully-equipped RAF, S-H or A-C 2-seater. You'll be right there at 35K easily.

[PW_Plack]

Ron, good for you, for being able to gain an instructor's perspective. As for the CFI/BFI issue, you still overlook one important point, as do many other people who debate this: The worth of a product or service is not based on what it costs to produce, but what it's worth to the buyer.

Adding up the costs and risks of being a CFI isn't necessarily the way to figure out what it should cost the student. Steven is correct in that regard. Supply and demand is the real determiner of rates.

Ron, if your customers figured out your monthly payments on your equipment, then figured fuel and other costs, they'd come up with some number well below what you charge. You don't expect them to be angry if you charge more, because they understand you're in it to make a good living. If lawn care was something they could order over the internet from Singapore, you'd very shortly have to find some other line of work.

From a regulatory standpoint, a CFI is worth more per hour to me than a BFI, because I want to log the dual time toward a certificate. For someone who just wants to survive learning to solo, it may be a toss-up. The big costs and risks of being any kind of dual instructor with your own gyro are the same either way. The CFI has a few more hoops to jump through, but the actual cost isn't much more.

Steven, that $350,000 certificated fixed-wing is also covered by manufacturer's liability insurance. The guys who built it won't risk losing their homes if it crashes.

[Jazzenjohn]

I'm a cheapskate, but I found the rate and service from Terry Eiland to be extreemly worthwhile. We spent plenty of time on the ground answering questions and had valuable training in the air. I especially looked for a CFI so that whatever direction I go with it the training is counted. Someone mentioned that you'll pay for an instructor or for new rotor blades. That doesn't seem too far from the truth.
I'm curious as to whether the training from a BFI is countable towards a sport pilot rating. Anybody know?

[skyguynca]

Ok BFI training is only good toward SP rating if it was before 1 OCT last year and you were signed off for ultralight pilot thru USUA or ASUA other than that not good for anything. I agree CFI time should be more expesive due to the fact it will count towards a license, BFI time is really experience time. The BFI training time will not contain the same info as CFI time (ie cross country navigation and experience, night flying, instrument work, radio proceedures, control airspace) so it should be cheaper, it is just the basics and the aircraft will not have all this equipment so it won't cost as much to purchase or maintain. Everyone forgets that a training airplane or gyro for a pilots license has to have alot of equipment that a training aircraft for ultralight flying won't have and doesn't need.

[GyroRon]

Yes a BFI at this point can only teach you to fly a gyro. They can't write anything in your log book that would count towards a pilots license.

Some people will say.... "I don't care, I am not planning to get a pilots license."

True but who knows.... Maybe..... One Day far far away...... you decide you DO want a pilots license..... OR...... Maybe you want a sport pilots license..... Ever hour you do with a CFI counts towards the minimum number of hours needed for that rating.

So for example, you train with say Terry Eiland today and learned to fly gyros. You trained for 6 hours, Terry signed your log book and noted you recieved 6 hours of dual. It could be 10 or even 20 years from now and you suddenly decide you want your pilots license, those 6 hours still count towards the minimum hours.

The 6 hours with the BFI don't count.

Now saying that, I agree the BFIs have as much at risk, and almost the same costs to operate as the CFIs. But since they can't log your time, they are offering less to you as the student.

That to me is fine. They still teach you to safely fly your gyro. But I think they should charge less.

Now for some people who live really far from a CFI but close to a BFI, using a BFI might be the only logical choice. I know several BFIs that I know are great instructors.... Maxie Wildes, Doug Riley, Dave Seace.... I would not hesitate to train with any of these guys.

I don't know what most BFIs charge. I know Dave Seace is charging less than the going rate for a gyro CFI. Last I heard he was well under 100$ per hour. -If I am wrong could someone correct me please!!! - I don't know Dougs, or Maxies or any of the other guys rates for training. I know when Maxie started out a year or three ago, he was $20 less a hour than most CFIs, but not sure if he has or hasn't gone up. - with the price of all those Hirth parts he has to keep buying to keep his ship going, I wouldn't be surprised if he charged more! -

My point in this thread was just that after some thought I believe the 120$ per hour average rate for a gyro CFI is a reasonable fee all things considered. Your going to spend nearly as much to get a hour of training in fixed wing and if you look at the going rate for helicopters figure about 2-3 times as much as gyro instruction costs.

If you want to save money on instruction, go fly models.... Play on the computer with simulators.... take a few hours of cheaper fixed wing ultralight training.... anything that can get you used to how to fly will end up with you taking less time - at 120$ a hour - in the instructors machine to get to the point of being ready to solo your own machine. Any flying experience IMHO will give you a head start in learning to fly gyros.

[GyroRon]

Ron,
I've heard the arguments for charging gyroplane instruction at the same (or higher) rate many times, but the reality is; the average gyro does not cost $350,000 to replace. Gyros do not have the maintenance or annual fees of a certificated aircraft. Fixed or rotary wing CFI go through the same long process -- so what? The only fact that convinces me that gyroplane instruction should cost the same or more is -- exclusivity. If an instructor has to drive to your location, or has only a couple students per month, the rates naturally go up. If a location, like those established by the SparrowHawk network does training for a living, and they're busy, the rates should be much cheaper.


No doubt about it, a gyro instructor could charge less and not lose his shirt. But I still feel their rates are reasonable.

[Timchick]

Ron (or anyone else), Do fixed wing hours count for anything? I have 10 hours of fixed wing instruction I did ages ago. I still have my log book.

[gyromike]

Tim,

Since it is a different Category and Class of aircraft, I don't believe it would apply.

Here is the appropriate text from 14 CFR 61.109 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=d90c8002ebaaa6b07dfcdd064ff667d9&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.5.1.5&idno=14) of the FAR's:

(d) For a gyroplane rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) (Note: paragraph 'k' refers to Flight Training Devices, or flight Simulators - Mike)rotorcraft category and gyroplane class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(4) of this part, and the training must include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a gyroplane;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a gyroplane that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a gyroplane, which must have been performed within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test; and

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a gyroplane, consisting of at least—

(i) 3 hours of cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross-country flight of over 75 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

This applies even to someone with a current Private Pilot Certificate, with the exception that one would not be required to take the written test.

[pwendell]

Mike,

Only the parts that sepcifically say 'in a gyroplane' must be flown in a gyroplane. That amounts to 3 hours dual x-country, 3 hours dual night only if you want to be allowed to fly at night, 3 hours dual in preparation for the checkride, and 10 hours solo which must include 3 hours of x-country and 3 TO/L at a controlled airport. All the rest can be flown in an airplane. Of course, you may require more dual to be able to safely solo a gyroplane.

[gyromike]

Are you certain about that, Peter?

I would think that for an initial rating, the FAA would want you to take your dual instruction in a gyroplane.

If I'm wrong it won't be the first time...probably won't be the last either. :)

[pwendell]

Are you certain about that, Peter?

I would think that for an initial rating, the FAA would want you to take your dual instruction in a gyroplane.

If I'm wrong it won't be the first time...probably won't be the last either. :)


I'm 99.9% sure :) Remember that no matter how many, or few, hours a student has, he/she must still be signed off for solo, the checkride and must pass the checkride. If I'm wrong I'm sure one of the CFIs will let us know.

[KenSandyEggo]

"If I'm wrong I'm sure one of the CFIs will let us know."


I guess I can comment seeing as I'm a Crazy-F*****g-Idiot. :rolleyes: Never mind.

[automan1223]

Well Ron, your mind is expanding and you are starting to think ! Maybe there is hope for the rest .........

I am not being wise here I am being serious.

There is always what amounts to class envy from people who just do not know. Jealousy is wrong and unfair to those who have tried and succeeded at what they do. They have the right to earn their living be it gyro instruction, automotive mechanics or lawn service. The reality is most people who run their mindless mouths do not in fact know how much things really cost, how much skill and knowledge and up front money it takes to do what we do. Most people think mechanics and cfi's and bfi's are a ripoff.

Once they start to educate themselves they really see how cheap things are given all the facts.

Truthfully, rates should be double what they are for everything we pay for but other economic forces keep prices low. It is only a ripoff when we as a consumer does not get what we paid for:

QUALITY goods and services.

Unlike Doctors and lawyers we cannot "practice" our craft, we have to get it right the first time.


Jonathan Weis
Oriental NC

[KenSandyEggo]

When I had my sign shop, I gave a price to some yahoo for some take-with letters. He said: "Hey. I know what you pay for that vinyl and you'll knock it out in a couple minutes." I got on my horse. It was one of those days. "Who do you think pays the rent, the insurance, the phone bill, the credit card fees and the utility bills, you dip-****?" I guess he thought the magic-fairy paid those, plus a little pocket money for me.

[GyroRon]

I have to disagree with Ron...Being and airline pilot my self I spent alot of money on training...Here in my town you can rent a brand new 172xp with instructor for about 110..With that you get a nice 4 passenger plane. At least 3 large adults..Very nice instruments...When I was looking at training in a gyro I was blown out of the water on how much they are..It's just a 2 seater flying machine..I do know though that people have to make money but charging 120 hour is a little to much..I think they can charge that because there is not very many intsructors out there..So I taught myself..I think if they didn't charge as much they do they would get more people interested in it..The reason people want to get into ultralights and gyros is it's spose to be cheaper than GA. Just my 2 cents

The 172 can be financed over a very long term loan. It also appreciates in value, unlike gyroplanes that deappreciate. If your training it doesn't matter if there is a roomy back seat cause it is only you and the instructor.

Does the instructor charge you for the pre flight and post flight ground instruction? The only gyro CFI that I have heard that does this is Bill O. in Florida and I am not sure if he is still instructing or not.

The 172 is also insurable for not only liability but also hull damage. Would you think they would still offer training for 110$ a hour knowing that if a student had a crash they would just have to eat the cost of replacing the cessna? That is what the gyro CFI is faced with.

I understand your points and sort of agree, this is supposed to be cheap flying. But what if I know someone who wants to fly Fixed wing and or IFR and decides the 110$ your guy charges is too much..... Should he train himself?

[flightexpress]

Ron You do have a good point also..I just get fusterated with the coast of the the gyros, but I guess if your cheap aviation is not for you...

[Hognose]

Kurt, Ron, and guys,

Prices for fixed wing flight training are regional and based on costs and demands. Man, I wish I could offer students a new 172XP for $110, excluding an instructor! Maybe it is the poorer weather up here, or living in the if-it-moves-tax-it-till-it-stops state of Mass., but we have to charge about that for an old 172N, wet. Then the instructor charge is additional.

I was blown away when I spent some time in Daytona with a buddy and we rented a new 172 from Epic Aviation at New Smyrna Beach. Yes, for less that I can offer the machine's 1977 counterpart to my customers for. I would love to put a new plane, probably a DA40, on line, but have a hard time justifying it right now.

The costs for gyro flight training are less influenced by regional matters, as you are probably going to travel to your instructor anyway.

cheers

-=K=-

[PW_Plack]

I called Roto-Rooter for an emergency sewer clog on a Sunday. $75 an hour. CFIs are cheap!

And most of them smell better.

[KenSandyEggo]

Ever get legal advice from a good specializing attorney? Mine charges close to $300 per hour, something like $265. :eek: