Pual's Crash Pictures ???

[Silverwing]

These are the pictures that are available from the Aussi site, of "a wreck", said to be the "green Machine", supposedly "stuffed", by Paul B...

I would like to know if this is the same aircraft that Paul said, "No I did not" wreck?

If so... What is considered a wreck?

If so....Were we being lied to?



John :eek:

[banaari]

There's nothing new here. Paul has already admitted the crash.
Do we really want yet ANOTHER thread on the same topic?

[KenSandyEggo]

Sob! That's some sad photos.

[mcbirdman]

No but the truth would be nice for a change.

[chuter]

Don't know what kind of blades they are, but they sure came apart. :(

[skyguynca]

Look like dragon wing blades.....looks like from the pics it had a very very hard yaw as it hit. Almost like my biplane looked when it ground looped on me at a high rate I could not recover from...boy that was a lesson.

[Silverwing]

There is something new here...........

IT'S CALLED PICTURES... (you know, it's worth a thousand words)

I didn't see Paul, post em.

He just lied about it.

Did he think... that these would never be seen?

John

[quadrirotor]

There is no full proof gyro!

[banaari]

At the risk of repeating myself...
- we already knew there was a crash,
- Paul *admitted* there was a crash,
is there any need to keep flogging the same horse?

The matter is before ASRA today... let's hope some light emerges from the smoke...

[Silverwing]

The ASRA, Decision will be interesting...

Banaari,
Make sure your the first one to post the results. We wouldn't want to hear lies, from "other" sources, now would we?


John :cool:

[mcbirdman]

Banari, Do you see MY point? I am beyond the amazement of the obvious outright lies and misdirection or if you want to minimize it down to what he called a play on words. I am sorry but I am not really interested in playing around with something so serious....

I would like to know why there is still some question as made by the pilots 1/2 comments that were not forthright that have left doubt to what the cause was. I simply want to know if it was pilot inexperience and possibly panicked double inputs on the rudder pedals at the same time that led to the crash. It is a simple question really and it does play to the safety of the exact 4 machines that we are building right now. Easy to sit back and wait if it doesn't affect you. Why should we have to wait and not get it STRAIGHT from the pilots mouth? Probably because we can't believe it anyway. That stinks !

Sitting back when you know something and letting it happen again is unacceptable to me. Are we going to start playing straight or are we going to keep guessing or listening to misleading or blameshifting type comments.

The dead horse is not about whether or not a crash. There are many more interesting points to be made but all I care about is learning from this. If we are going to 1/2 share or not reach out to help each other - what good will come? No one is happy about this, especially me ! However it has my attention and I would like to avoid any similiar outcome. Do you see my area of interest is in safety, not making someone feel worse.

[banaari]

James, I'm not in any way suggesting the issue is trivial or should go away.

Let me repeat, the matter's being looked at by ASRA.
Hopefully they'll be making their findings public, and hopefully those findings will for once and for all settle the matter.

If as you state, you can't believe Paul, then I'd have thought you'd rather get the answers from ASRA.

But until then, I utterly fail to see how continuously shouting "Paul lied!" over and over again is getting us anywhere.

regards,
John

[GyroRon]

James, I'm not in any way suggesting the issue is trivial or should go away.

Let me repeat, the matter's being looked at by ASRA.
Hopefully they'll be making their findings public, and hopefully those findings will for once and for all settle the matter.

If as you state, you can't believe Paul, then I'd have thought you'd rather get the answers from ASRA.

But until then, I utterly fail to see how continuously shouting "Paul lied!" over and over again is getting us anywhere.

regards,
John

Agreed! Paul didn't lie, as far as I am concerned. He didn't come forward at the beginning with all the details is what he did. Kinda hurts to admit you tore up someone elses machine, especially when you are a paid test pilot. He didn't make the best decisions he could have made during the aftermath, but he is still our friend.... RIGHT? Treat the man with some respect you guys!

I can tell you guys that if you all were putting me through the crap Paul has had to deal with you might ought to go look at some of the Gun threads on the forum here and get you one, cause the next time I saw you I would be opening a can of whoopass on ya! The way Paul has been treated sucks, and I know no one here would want that kind of treatment focused on themselves.

McJames, I can understand your concern. But take it easy, there is nothing in this accident that will affect you or your machines other than these two following points. (1) make sure your rudder cables are done properly (2) make sure whoever flys the thing is used to tractor gyros and the way they handle. Elsewise just wait and let's see if the report finds something else not already discussed.

[skyguynca]

I am up with Ron, just wait guys. You pushed Paul into a corner and demanding to know if the rumor is true, well you know he did not want to answer until the ARSA investigation is over. I personally would not even answer to a rumor and it really is none of anyone's business but the owner and Paul and the ARSA. Just wait, calm down, quit slinging mud.......the answers will come.Oh and please stop the accusations, true saying "I'm sorry for being wrong" is easy but stopping the accusations is easier.

[mcbirdman]

John, I got that. It is too bad we are on our own......

Still, I haven't heard from the witnesses that saw what happened but I did see on the other forum that said there was NO problem with the cables. In fact I think they said that when you can jack a car up with them or something?......

If someone earns such a reputation and such remarks are made that in effect are designed to mislead others that are interested in the truth....... You earn what you sow.

I would agree with you about not speaking about it had he never offered any flight review or after the fact dis-information regarding the crash. People have read his initial statements regarding the incident and might think that if he said something it must be true. In other words he not only opened the door but stepped in and started screaming about it - leaving many people with their jaw just hanging.....

It might be hard for you to see if we are picking on him or searching for the truth. Sadly it is twisted together and the only hope of maybe finding out might be waiting for a report. But I know of another US incident that left two people still disagreeing what happened and why so I would have preffered STRAIGHT answers to the secondary ones based on what they heard. This is too bad from all angles. You might think it is the Lie, but I think that is just a distraction from the information I seek. I feel bad for him but there is some good that could come out of it. For this reason I am resisting any attempt at trying to silence the situation at hand - only because he took the time to only 1/2 put it out there and now has left more questions than he answered......

[mcbirdman]

Hi Ron,
I understand your points and that is what I got out of all of this. Check cables, Nuetral spring tension and if a problem does occur - Simply admit there was a situation that can not be discussed yet. Do not take the time to write partial flight test info but say you don't have the time to go into detail on anything else.... Be straight. Don't give 1/2 explanations unless they can be explained..... None of which was told to me - I just learned it........

Seems like this was about the most indirect route I have had to take on this forum to get some answers. Usually if someone asks - someone will tell. I like that much better.... And when someone asks you something and you say no and it is yes..... that is lying.

[GyroRon]

Paul flew it for several days prior to the accident. He posted his thoughts on flying the Little Wing, and I am sure after a few days of flying he could come to some conclusions that were worth mentioning.

It like a person who builds a Bensen and flys it for 10 hours and then crashes it on hour 11. Should he not report how it flew prior to the crash? Does the fact that he had a crash make any of his other observations worthless?

It WAS kinda weird that he didn't mention the crash in his report, but there again he may have not wanted to get himself in trouble since the paperwork wasn't right or some other reason.

You have to understand that for some of us, Paul included, these forums can be addictive, and we rush to report our findings of test flights, or to report how a fly in went or to post flying pics etc.... And maybe he just couldn't resist the temptation to post what he posted, even though he left out a part of the story we would have all liked to have heard in the beginning. Like I said no one likes to tell everyone he was in a crash as nearly all crashes can be blamed on pilot error no matter what really happened.

[Vance]

Lets do a little analysis on the benefits of going on and on.

Do we know that it is wrong to tell a lie? Yes I think we do.

Have the witnesses agreed on the cause of the crash? One witness says it was the rudder cables, the other says it was not. No agreement.

Can we be certain anyone is lying? Witnesses often disigree on the events that they witnessed.

Will we get a chance to inspect the aircraft? It doesn't seem likely because it is a long way from home.

Will the ASRA know exactly what hapened? Not if they are anything like the NTSB.

Can we cause an adult to modify a life time pattern of behavior thru public humiliation? It has never worked for me.

Will speculation without information yield knoledge? Not in my experance. I believe that flawed knoledge is worse than no knoledge.

Can we find something better to do with our time? Yes in my opinion, Murray is trying to help rebuild the ship and that is a worthwhile thing to spend our time on.

Thank you, Vance

[Silverwing]

Vance,

Lets do some more analysis......... The benefits of going on, and on.

Do the other builders of such machines know what went wrong?
NO.

Do these other people deserve to know if their machine is going to kill them?
YES.

Can anything from the mouth of Paul, be trusted?
NO

He is untrustworthy of telling the truth. ie: NO I didn't ....

Can the true cause of the accident ever be known?

HELL YES,... If we don't listen to people like you, who want to sweep it under the rug. If we are vigillant enough, to keep the pressure on this subject, we might just gleen some truth, instead of the bull-hocky.

This, is a horse of a different color.


John

[mcbirdman]

Ron, I understand, especially the last part.

I just wish that if we were such a good family we really did put it all out there like we often have seen.... even if it was a hard thing to do. That is more forgivable and acceptable to me but then.... that is just me.

Vance that is why I wasn't enthused about waiting for a report. I agree that they are not all telling. What we had here was an opportunity to really learn on this forum but apparently that isn't the real goal for some people. We will probably never really know and that definately is frustrating since I only want to be safe.....

[banaari]

Do these other people deserve to know if their machine is going to kill them?

Not one of the postulated causes mentions any kind of a design flaw, only improper construction and/or modifications and/or pilot error.


Can anything from the mouth of Paul, be trusted?
NO
...

Can the true cause of the accident ever be known?
HELL YES,... If we don't listen to people like you, who want to sweep it under the rug. If we are vigillant enough, to keep the pressure on this subject, we might just gleen some truth, instead of the bull-hocky.


Umm... who exactly are you trying to keep the pressure on....

Presumably not Paul?... You keep repeating ad nauseum that nothing he says can be trusted.
ASRA? They're already investigating.

I can't see what you might achieve that wouldn't happen if you just waited a few days. Can I respectfully suggest we all take a deep breath, step back, and see what information ASRA (hopefully!) release.

cheers,
John

[MikeBoyette]

Everyone,
Those are not Dragon wings. They appear to be SportCopter rotor blades. I've seen many sets of DW's wrecked, alot worse than those appear to be, and they never delaminated like that. I've see a set that a fella catapulted his whole gyro over and they did not delaminate. One blade was bent over 90 degrees. I stand corrected then . It appear that those who own Patroney's should be concerned

[banaari]

Apparently they are (or were!) "26-foot early Patroneys".

[mcbirdman]

I just see that there are things to consider and based on actions actually taken it is hard to see why somone else is so defensive for undefensive actions. That is why you are getting equally opposite reactions to your suggestion of not talking about it. That part is not surprising. Again, it would have been been better to say nothing than to spend time sending out mixed messages.

Anyway, yes, I feel I have the information that I really need and being dissapointed with all the rest of the avoidable distractions doesn't change anything either way for me so other than waste of time, and the worry it has caused, I am out nothing. I am glad that the pilot has lived to tell about it. Or not.

[Vance]

Hello James, I so enjoy and admire your sensitivity, thank you for your input, Vance

[skyguynca]

Ok so they are Patroney's, I stand corrected. I still say we need to wait and see what ARSA has to say about the accident. I also say leave the pressure off Paul. I am not defending, but you guys are like a pack of wild dogs on him. By further pressure, will you prove what happened? NO you won't. By more aggrivation and name calling will the actual events become clear? NO they won't. By trying to say that "it willl make it safer for other pilots" make the whole truth magically appear and make calling names and accusatins more true??? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, and finally NO it won't. So lay off. Until you have a official report in your hand, until you have video footage of the incident, LAY OFF and calm down and relax...just wait.

[Jazzenjohn]

There were a few people who were pretty rough on Birdy and Gurkle and some of the other Aussies/Ozzies for having the audacity to say there WAS an accident after Paul said there wasn't. All they were trying to do was to get him to tell the truth and maybe show a tiny bit of remorse for destroying someones pride and joy. That might be asking alot if there were a hidden defect in the machine, but what if they're right and there wasn't? They probably feel pretty betrayed by the whole thing and no one has seen fit to apologize publicly to them.
Birdy hasn't posted since. That is a huge loss.
If Paul had simply typed "There was a tragic accident. I'm OK. The Green Gecko can be fixed. I'll post more after the investigation" NONE of this B$ would have happened.

[Silverwing]

Banaari,

Pressure on the subject,...... NOT on Paul. I believe is what I said....
Paul has enough pressure on him.

John

[Chris Burgess]

I don't know why you guys bicker so. I am glad the incident was posted. I never gave a thought to the possibility of a rudder return pulling the rudder over hard, whether that is what happened or not. As you slow a gyro, the rudder becomes much less effective. Full rudder can almost be required in some cases. If the pedal spring pulls the rudder over in the wrong direction, look out. I do train to land without rudder for the possibility of a cable break, but not for the pedal spring to pull it full over. I am glad to be able to have this information to help others understand the possibilities.

[LARRYEBOYER]

When I heard Paul had an accident, I was sure glad he wasn't hurt. Now that I view the wreckage, I am amazed he was not. When a high time pilot like Paul breaks a machine, it gives me pause to reflect back on close calls that never got completely out of control. It can happen to anyone and it goes to show that accidents happen. Even to the best. The lesson I hope I always keep formost before a flight is a good preflight and good preventitive maintence.When we let our guard down, it can get expensive real quick.Like even the loss of life. One other comment on Paul is that he is most gererous with information that has helped me emencely! I believe he has worked to save lives with his stab work and CLT work on the RAF.Let's appreciate him for what he has given to us and not kick him in the nuts when he wasn't so open on this issue. Even the great ones have ego's that get busted.It is hard to admit sometimes when a mistake is made that should never have happened.

[RHerron]

I don't know why you guys bicker so. I am glad the incident was posted. I never gave a thought to the possibility of a rudder return pulling the rudder over hard, whether that is what happened or not. As you slow a gyro, the rudder becomes much less effective. Full rudder can almost be required in some cases. If the pedal spring pulls the rudder over in the wrong direction, look out. I do train to land without rudder for the possibility of a cable break, but not for the pedal spring to pull it full over. I am glad to be able to have this information to help others understand the possibilities.


Hi Chris,

You had Andy's gyro in your hangar for a long time before he flew it back over here. If you looked at it closely you should have seen the tiny little springs on the front passenger rudder pedals. These serve only to keep the pedal from falling backward when there is no foot-pressure being applied.
These are not nearly strong enough to "pull" the pedal forward and are not meant to be "centering" springs at all.

If someone used big, heavy, pre-loaded springs instead,....well, yes, it could cause a pull one way if a cable came loose. It would be very easy to figure that out from inspecting the wreckage.

[CLS447]

Ron, why would the pedals fall backwards?

[Chris Burgess]

Right Ron,
It is an area that others have said to me, "Why don't you put stronger springs on so the cables stay tight?" That's why this was a "light" coming on. I never thought about the possibility of a "strong" return spring being a problem. It breaks a trend in the thought process don't you think? The Littlewing is another fine, world record setting gyroplane. I am in no way explaining this incident, just enjoying the education.

[mcbirdman]

Still, a pedal adjusted with the spring at NO extension when the pedal is straight up/nuetral - will not have any negative affect on the cables if one breaks loose. It is only when the pedal is other than straight up that it will have bias towards center. Pushing a pedal off center starts to stretch the spring and the pedals would only want to return to normal position (straight up). Big springs add more bias to center than small but no difference in a failure since it will not be able to pull the rudder over in any way. And as Ron said lighter springs won't overcome the airflow forces anyway. (besides having them adjusted to nuetral also)

[BUD ONEAL]

The right thing for payl to dois as done,confess and rebuild the machine as I did 20 some years ago. I wrecked one at the Clewiston airport,not my fault, the boat tank was not secured on the frame,old type bensen,secured with a bungee cord.The long and short of it I was the pilot,er test dummy and I rebuilt the gyro, not cheap to do but it needed to happen.

[BUD ONEAL]

Holy smoke I did'nt prof read the last post.

[RHerron]

Ron, why would the pedals fall backwards?


Chris S,

Without some kind of spring, the pedals would tend to fall due to their own weight when they were overcenter toward the rear. Springs are used on lots of aircraft to prevent the cables from going limp when no pressure (from the pilot) is being applied.

[OzyRuss]

G'day there guy's.......I'm just another ozy gyro pilot that's been lurkin abowt your forums for a while. Have a 2 seater, first began flying these gyros abowt 30 yrs ago, bent 3 :( :( I reside up the top of Oz.....darwin NT
You guys can get good info etc via our own web site.....www.asra.org.au
The feedback on this sorry saga is hot here too.
Am enjoying your general comments throughout your threads etc....keep it up........Russ

[KenSandyEggo]

"Holy smoke I did'nt prof read the last post."...or this one, Bud. :D

[CLS447]

Ron,

I'm sorry, I thought you used the teleflex cables throughout.

[Rotornut]

Dontaa you wizzy Uncle Buddie we stilll lovess yaaa. MJ :)

[Vance]

Hello MJ, I always love the things you say, I would be gratefull if you could translate the post above. I am not able to catch your meaning. Thank you, Vance

[GyroRon]

Dontaa you wizzy Uncle Buddie we stilll lovess yaaa. MJ :)

Translation for Vance....

Don't Worry Uncle Bud, We still Love ya. Mary Jane Oxnam

I believe she wrote this tongue in cheek, because Ken J was picking on Bud for the poor spelling he had in both of his posts in this thread.

[Vance]

Thank you Ron

[BUD ONEAL]

Thank you Ken,But M.J still loves me!!

[KenSandyEggo]

I do too, Bud. Say, how tall are you and what's your favorite flowers? ;)

[BUD ONEAL]

Short,fat ,ugly and gray,Oh you said how tall 5 ' 7" and compacting. By the time I reach 70 yrs,[3 to go] I'll be 5'0" and lilac's

[Rotornut]

LMAO!! Thanks Ron. MJ :)