Status of Ortmayer accident report ?

[automan1223]

This past weekend marked 1 year since the fatal accident that involved Bill Ortmayers student. I am curious if anyone has any more information or the official report from the ntsb. Last I heard the bolt was being sent for testing but nothing further has been posted that I can tell. Any info from the NTSB is being held by their computers and I am unable to find it.

Jonathan

[Heron]

Curiously I was talking about it yesterday, after reading one of his articles in the PRA magazine.
Someone can chime in and give us a report on his status and activities?
Maybe at Bensen Days there will be good news about him . . .
Heron

[Chuck Roberg]

Joe Mahr who is president of PRA chapter 80 located at the Valparaiso, Indiana airport. Also happens to be a forensic detective. Joe has done quite a bit of work into the cause(s) of this accident. He has several pictures of the accident and of the bolt in question. He has spoke with Bill Ortmayer several times. I believe Joe even made a trip down to Florida. Joe also has (had) the questionable bolt in his possession.

Joe took the bolt and pictures to a metallurgist from Packer Engineering. Packer engineering does everything from destructive testing to accident investigation. I was told they are on the NTSB’s list of outside contractors that do failure analysis on items from crashes etc. They then take their findings and if necessary testify in court proceedings.

As a side note Packer Engineering built the replica engine for the Wright Flyer that tried to fly at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. The flyer is still on display at the museum.

I was told when the guy from Packer seen the pictures and bolt he said right away it was the wrong type of bolt. He went on to say what the fracture told him and why it failed. That it was the cause of the accident not because of it. He also said his best guess would be a 10% failure rate for bolts used in this application. It was recommended all bolts be replaced in this application.

My memory is a cloudy here but, I believe the correct bolt would actually be thinner in the center (tapered?). The information from the engineer was passed on to the people at RAF. What RAF has done with the information I’m not sure.

The information was also presented to the attorney representing the family of the student killed in the crash. I was told the attorney after seeing the report said he would drop the proceedings against Bill O. I was informed that the case against RAF was also weak, since they specified a bolt and they were sent the incorrect one for that use.

Now, it’s been several months since I spoke with Joe about this so I may not be 100% correct. Joe does not use the internet but if anyone would like more information Joe would be happy to talk with you about it. Joe said he would be at Bensen days. If you don’t know who he is ask me, Tom Milton or Rick Marshall. Or give him a call at 630-325-0505

[automan1223]

Thank you for your update. It is with a heavy heart and guilty concience that I have been carrying around with me for a while that I write this inquiry.

As you know I had a web page critical of Bill O about my training with him. I had to be fair and since I own a set of raf blades I had to put myself in his shoes. 99% of things could be wrong with his machine but if the bolt which was not a user serviceable part failed was he really at fault ? In my mind I could not think that he was. And having had shafts and hard parts fail on me in the past I know you can test and run something for years and have it blow up or snap or whatever when you least expected it for no reason at all.

Btw I was contacted by the widow ms goodeaux, and told her in my 2nd conversation with her that could be in fact the case. That Bill was a lot of things but this accident could be a freak occurence and no single persons fault.

Raf has updated the design and sent notices to all owners making them aware of the improvements, spending a few hundred dollars to update the part is cheap insurance against future problems. I hope with time and prayers all people involved will heal.

Jonathan Weis
Oriental NC

[Caribean_gyro]

jonathan do you have the up dates from RAF. They know I bought a blade from them for my twin star They have not send any mail or email informing me of any improvement. I magnaflux my hub but would like to know if the bolt need to be change. period.

Chuckp

[StanFoster]

Chuck: I keep forgetting to thank you for telling me about that bolt while at was at the Shelbyville fly-in. The doubt that was put into my mind about the integrity of such a vital part of the rotor....got me tiring of thinking about it. At that very Shelbyville fly-in were a nice set of Sportcopter blades that were for sale. I also kept those in the back of my mind.

Then when I read about yet another hubbar developing cracks...that was enough for me to do something about it. The sportcopter blades were still available and I pounced on them.

I am not an engineer by any means...but my laymens eye can readily see that the sportcopter hubbar is substantially stronger and no apparent stress points. Plus....that questionable bolt that is in tension isnt there.

I would have at the least sent my hubbar back to RAF for the upgrade and the heavier redesigned bolt they have.

Thanks Chuck..... :)

Stan

[Caribean_gyro]

what is the lead time for a sportc copter 1 year? If this is the case I could do a deposit and work on getting the balance later.

CHuckP

[mcbirdman]

This goes back to the conversation I tried to mention before concerning the bolt failure. Joe told me when I showed up at the Valpariso meeting and showed me written communication concerning the case. I was told that the bolt was the wrong size and R. knew about it and indicated that they were choosing the bolt that everyone had because - you know how kitbuilders are.... always trying to save money. While this was going on they blamed the pilot and left him out there to take the brunt.

I was told it was an R choice to use this bolt despite being told by the bolt maker that it wasn't the right bolt. Joe was happy to say that they got R to send out a replacement bolt to everyone which should have been used in the first place. He seemed glad that it seemed to be a first time anyone has been able to make R do anything along the lines of change..... Important to note that it wasn't really made clear from the company that they did anything wrong, they only agreed to replace it. You can read between the lines..... but I read the papers as submitted. It didn't impress or surprise me though as I have been following peoples succsess, failures, enthusiasm, and problems for years. I think overall it has been a sad tale.

This viewpoint is slightly different than posted above with the point being made that it was a concious decision to go against reccomendations - I thought it was valuable insight into the way some companies seem to operate.

Some people didn't believe what I mentioned I was told but it was interesting to see people recieving their bolts soon after. There was talk about when they were getting the bolts but little emphasis on the reasons why. Probably most people aren't aware of what was going on but as written above - I think we were lucky to have a chapter president that is a foresenic investigator. A bit hard not to listen to what he found........ I guess the guy making decisions at the factory isn't a pilot or an engineer - just a guy who thought such an important bolt could be replaced against manufacturers recommendation but only because he wanted to save kitters some money. That is another reason that I question any action or inaction with that company because I have read so much about "surprise" problems that are "one of a kind" and yet when R pilots get together and talk - find out they were all the "first" to experience these kind of problems. I can't help but think that this kind of attitude is responsible for the losses we have seen. I wish I could feel different but I don't.

[Chuck Roberg]

Hey Stan, No problem. See ya at Bensen daze.

[PW_Plack]

what is the lead time for a sportc copter 1 year? If this is the case I could do a deposit and work on getting the balance later.

CHuckP

Chuck,

Call the factory weekdays 9am - 4pm at (503) 543-7000. I believe the lead time is now something like eight weeks. They've added additional staff over the last two years, and should be about caught up.

Ask Jim Vanek for recommendations before picking a blade size for the TwinStarr.

[Chris Burgess]

RAF did send me a notice of change. I use an RAF blade on my SnoBird Adventurer. I had them replace the winglets and the bolts with their "new and improved" parts. I will say they set the pitch on the new winglets exactly as I sent them in. After installing the blades and flying, they are exactly the same as I sent them. This was a concern of mine. The new winglets are contour machined and wider. The new bolts have a twice as large radius under the head and a proper cut washer under to accommodate the radius. The new bolt increases the already large safety factor (about 5) by 25%. I was never in doubt of the equipment before. You need to know the history of the equipment involved.

[mcbirdman]

They are good at doing things the same way, year after year..... That is why they fly the same as you mentioned and I believe that.
I wouldn't expect anything to change.

However R choosing a bolt on what you they think is okay, and considering their non technical expertise as oppossed to the manufacture's technical specifications and proffesional advice does nothing to prove it IS okay. If you want to think it is okay because they and you think it is okay..... okay...... But it wasn't...... which is the reason for this thread.

This is another example that proves that the only one responsible for you is you. What makes this bad is that these are just kits. Many people build them are just assemblers and following the directions given which as a result would lead a person to believe that if you just assemble it the way the book shows -manufacture's specs ..... there should be no problem.

It becomes a very important decision to choose a manufacture that you are going to trust with your life. It has to be based on performance and history and if you want to base it on a feeling that is your choice too. I would be wary of a manufacture that resists changes that do in fact improve safety and handling characteristics despite improved knowledge.

There are more suitable companies out there constantly changing and adapting these experimentals in order to provide you with the best product support based on real time - and technical testing they will share with you. You have the latest information without having to pry information out of them or having to second quess them.

It is a large enough task to get it together that completion of the kit becomes the goal. It just seems that as many assemblers get closer to completion many people back away and start selling them before they are flying and I can't help but wonder if, as the assembling slows down and they have more time to consider the next phase if they start realizing the other 1/2 of assembling and flying.... and sell it.

[automan1223]

Yes, I got the blade technical service bulletin. They have reprofiled the ends of the hub bar and gone 1 better with a NAS type bolt with larger radius and possibly user serviceable hardware. I spoke with the gentlemen mentioned in the 3rd post and he said that the testing company even recommended that the NEW bolts be replaced every 100 hours due to bending and tension stresses. If raf knows this or not I do not know. Frankly I am not keen on having the bolts replaced every 100 hours because I am not the one handling the bar and in theory all this torque and retorque could fatigure the metal of the main part of the hub bar with all the reworking. I know I have been in the repair business for a very long time and the more you mess with hard parts the great the chance for things to break on you. Jims blades are the best at 2xs the price but I dont know if they are a set of blades I would want to go learn on for the cost to replace them. However its your hamburger in the seat so do what you must.

Of course there is a lot more to any story so take what you hear as speculation unless you were a party to 1st hand info then its all hearsay. We will never really know if there were conditions that really contributed to the failure of the bolt/hub bar assy. I can honestly say this that they wre not the smoothest set of blades I have flown. They were the least. Only Mr Ortmayer knows how he handled and treated the setup and only Mr Ortmayer knows if he should have been flying the blades in the first place.



Jonathan

[skyguynca]

Jonathan, could you send me the blade service bulletin. Actually anyone who has it that can send it email I would really appreciate it. I have a older set of RAF blades and hub bar I was thinking of using and now I need to see if they are up to snuff.

[Caribean_gyro]

I will like o know if this bulletin applied to all blades. Also Chriss did you send the hub only? DId RAF paid anything? More and more I am gearing to convice my wife to make a loan and buy sportcopter blades
chuckP

[Chris Burgess]

Chuck
They told me this was not a mandantory replacement. I am an instructor, so I set the example. I did send the hub and winglets only. Cost me about $50 shipping each way UPS and cost me $300 for the new winglets and the two retention bolts. Yes, I paid. You need to sign a statement that your blades have not been involved in any incident and how many hours are on them. Evidence of excessive flapping etc may cost you more if they determine your hub also should be replaced.

[Plato]

Hello to all:

I'm the widow of Ashley Godeaux, the student pilot killed in the accident of Ortmayer's gyro. The NTSB has now posted the factual report of the accident on their website. Go to http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/month.asp and click on Mar, 2004 for the full report. It makes extremely interesting reading, to say the least. I have a hard copy of the full report, including the post-mortem, sent to me at my request by the NTSB.

Jonathan was completely right all along, in my view.

Thanks-
Ellen

[Brian Jackson]

Thanks, Ellen.
The transcript of the full report can be found Here (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20040325X00373&ntsbno=MIA04LA058&akey=1) .
Again, our deepest sympathies for your loss.

[Plato]

Thanks, Brian, and I wish all of you the best. It's my hope that no more people will die as a result of the circumstances that caused my dear husband's death, and so I pass along information to help.

Best,
Ellen