I apologise, apologise, apologise.....

[Aussie_Paul]

….. for the dancing around, sidestepping and avoidance of the Little Wing incident/accident.

Due to situations, beyond my control, I have not been able to report accurately what occurred. I am now free to do this.

The Incident/accident that occurred on Friday the 4th March 2004 with a Little Wing tractor gyroplane.

I arrived at Kotta approx 30 km south west of Echuca in Victoria in Hybrid at approx 6.00 pm on Tuesday the 1st March 2005, and was met by **** **** and his mate Graeme Munroe. **** had built a single seat tractor gyroplane called a Little Wing. **** wanted me to test, certify, and train him to fly his tractor gyroplane.

As **** was not a member of ASRA at this time, I issued him with a student pilot certificate and arranged to download the ASRA membership and gyro registration/certification forms for **** to fill in. We were staying at Graeme Munro’s place and Graemes internet connection had been down for a couple of days, and was still down.

I inspected ****’s gyroplane and began initial testing. A tractor gyro had to be set up a little different to a pusher due to the rotor and tail being quite close. I found a maximum teeter limit of 15 degrees and a rotor disc angle, with full back stick, of 14 degrees to the horizon with the gyro on its 3 wheels to be acceptable. I established that these measurements gave enough back stick for all maneuvers including engine idling approaches and landings at 36 kts. The engine idling tests began with an approach speed of 46 kts IAS and were reduced by 2 kts during each successive approach and landing.

During these tests I conducted some slow flights, and with a 15 kt head wind, conducted some nose high hovering with an IAS of 15 kts. I also reduced power to conduct a number of vertical descents. I had used a VSI to find the best climb speed and a gps to calibrate the ASI which was reading 7 kts slow.

On Friday afternoon at approx. 3.30pm I was approaching to land with the engine idling. The approach speed for this landing was 40kts. At approx 15” I began the flare and a slight right yaw occurred. I applied some left rudder and my left foot went straight to the floor. “Bloody broken rudder cable” I thought, but was not concerned as the yaw stability with the long moment arm of the tractor is excellent. All of a sudden the aircraft yawed violently to the right. I applied opposite stick and everything that I could including increasing power to have the machine as level as was possible for ground contact. Unfortunately the under carriage collapsed, the rotor hit the ground and the machine rolled to the left with the usual damage. I released the full harness and stood up to let **** see that I was ok. The aircraft was pointing approx 170 degree from the approach direction.

I went to the tail feather end to see if the left rudder cable was attached and it was. I then went to the cockpit to find that the left rudder cable had pulled out of the swage. The thimble was still bolted to the left rudder pedal. By this time Keith had arrived and I explained what had happened. I said that I could not believe that the landing could not be carried out without rudder. Upon further investigation I saw that the centering return springs for the rudder were attached to the rudder pedals and pulling forward. I realized then, that the right rudder pedal had been pulled forward by the right rudder pedal return spring.

I had asked **** had he used the special swaging tool to swage all the cables, and he said that he had. There are a number of cables holding the tail feathers in position, as well as the four ends of the rudder cables. All swaged cable ends were neatly covered in black heat shrink. I immediately got out my pocket knife and removed the heat shrink from some of the tail feather cable ends. I was horrified that there where no correct nico press sleeves used. “The sleeves” were approximately 1” lengths of tube with an approximate ID of 1/8th”. These appeared to have been squashed in a vice. The correct nico press sleeves, when applied with the correct tool, actually impregnate between the cable strands to give the ultimate yield strength. I was horrified with this as **** was an engineer and the rest of the machine was quite well built. I pulled on another “swaged” end and the cable slid through the sleeve.

I came home on Saturday morning after telling **** to download and fill out the ASRA forms as soon as Graeme was back on line. I also mentioned to **** that he was also responsible for filling in an ASRA incident report.

This incident/accident has had quite an unnerving effect on me, particularly after realizing that if this had happened at altitude I possibly could have been killed. It has taken a few of days to settle down.
*******************************************

When asked by Gyro Ron did I bend the machine I used a play on words when I said "No I did not". Which is actualy true. The machine almost killed me, I did not bend it.

As the Title says, I apologise, but I could do nothing else at that time.

Aussie Paul.

[cgmg]

Paul,

Glad to hear you survived, no thanks to the builder of the machine! Sometimes, Lady Luck travels with you, and this must have been one of those times.

It takes a lot of guts to admit you danced around a direct question, so kudos to you for owning up.

One suggestion for the future: Maybe the best thing to have done about this situation would have been to just stay silent on the forum until everything shook out, and clear the air when the circumstances allowed it. Then no apologies would be due to anyone. It would have also saved a lot of pointless bantering in that thread.

I am one of the people who truly appreciate the work you do to support us gyro freaks, both here and over there. Keep on doing what you do best, and turn this scary event into a learning experience.

Question: did the builder indicate why in the world he covered a critical control component with shrink-wrap tubing?

[skyguynca]

Wow, that is one heck of a story. You were not lucky, but skilled enough to walk away. I say you should have given him a good punch to the chops, handed him a beer then explained to him why it happened.

[Jazzenjohn]

In my limited experience people are usually much more upset about being lied to than they are about an accident.
Also this whole topic should be under the heading "piloting technique/accident discussions" instead of "off topic".

[birdy]

Well, thats a start, but wait, I reckon theres more...........................alot more. :eek:

Due to situations, beyond my control,
Thats odd?? you had plenty o time to post plenty o other crap in the mean time. :rolleyes:
And yes,you DID tell a fib to Ronny boy. :rolleyes:

I hate people who shift blame to someone/something else. :mad:

[scottessex]

Glad you are OK. Sorry about the machine.
Mark, I have covered my rudder cable swedges with heat shrink, BUT they were properly swedged with a nicopress tool, and were the correct cable ferrules and thimbles.

I have seen this a few times. DO NOT SWEDGE YOUR CABLE ENDS WITH VICE GRIPS, OR A VICE!

[GyroRon]

Yes I do feel betrayed! I stood up for ya Paul, cause I believed you would tell us yes or no if you crashed and you made me believe your aussie friends were just out to get you. I will be okay though and glad to hear you didn't get hurt.

This accident has the Late Chuck Irbys flipped over in a field accident written all over it. Remember he didn't properly do his cables either and the exact same thing happened to him.

This will certainly influence my preflight of other peoples machines when they offer me a flight in them. I usually look at the cables but not that closely.

Birdy and Murray, Sorry for being a jerk to you guys on Pauls behalf. I guess your kinda right, he may have lost a tad of respect over this thing.

Lastly I don't blame Paul for this accident if what he said happened is how it happened - see due to his recent fibbing, I am not sure now If I can put much faith into this report! See how that works Paul!!! -

Although, if Paul was paid to inspect this machine then he should have spotted this.

[birdy]

Birdy and Murray, Sorry for being a jerk to you guys on Pauls behalf.
No wurrys Ron, it's understandable, and it was piss'n me off a tad to, wach'n him take you all for a ride.
Glad you'v seen the light, it woz my intention, for EVERYBODY to see the light of honesty.....Paul.
Above all, Paul.
It means nuthn to me if he bends someones machine, I'v had nuthn to gain by persu'n the truth,[ btw, I'v got a good idea of wot the truth is, but I prefer Paul to tell it, for his sake.] no skin off my nose, BUT it could be for others, and try'n to get Paul to fess up BEFORE the truth outed,woz an attempt to save some of Paul's credability.Unfortunatly for Paul, to some, he may have dug too deeper hole first with the ouitright denials.
Lastly I don't blame Paul for this accident if what he said happened is how it happened
As I said before Ron, theres more, and its up to Paul to cum clean............. [and theres a possability I won't shutup till he dose, on both forums.]
As you can see Paul, alota people held you in high regard, and wether you like it or not, you are responsable for wotever you post publicly.
You got one ell of a hole to dig outa now mate, and you could start by fill'n in ALL the details,............ before they show up and make you look an even bigger fool.

Fessup, take it on the chin, and maybe..................just maybe you'll regain some lost respect........................... mate.

[Udi]

Paul - this is the second time in..... what? Six month? that you could have died while flight-testing someone else’s machine. The last time was when the control fork broke just before you took off in someone's new-old machine. Do you realize the kind of risk you are taking on yourself when you are flying any contraption people are bringing to you? If I were you I would take a break and think very hard what you have to do to make your survival odds a LOT better. These are home built machines and the risk is high, especially in the first few hours, and especially when you have no clue as for the quality of workmanship and materials put into that machine. Ron - take note too.

Udi

[birdy]

Don't blame the machine.
It wont fly without human intervention, and sure as hell it wont crash without it either.

[Udi]

Don't blame the machine.
It wont fly without human intervention, and sure as hell it wont crash without it either.
Don't blame the machine??? I assume that was directed at my post, Birdy? Tell me, are you comfortable hopping into any gyro that you know nothing about and go flying? If the answer is yes, then you are either naive or you are willing to accept a high level of risk. A fair number of crashes have already happened due to mechanical failures. There are enough critical pieces in a gyro that have no redundancy. Usually, it's the control system that brings the gyro down. It happened to some of the most experience pilots, and some have died. At least two hub bar failures that I know of - in your country - in the past six-month. At least two crashes related to rudder cables and one near miss with the cyclic control. All of these happened in Oz recently.

Of course I am not blaming the machine - machines have no agenda of their own. I am blaming the people who design, build, and maintain the machines. If you did not build it, if you don’t know the history of that machine (and you wouldn’t unless it’s yours), you better be suspicious! I bought my last Air Command from a guy who has never flown it. But the gyro was flown by the previous owner, and was checked and deemed "in good shape" by a very respectable gyro builder/designer/instructor here in the US. When I got the machine, nothing looked suspicious on the surface, but over the next few months I took it to pieces and rebuilt it.

I can't even count the number of lethal defects I found when I took it apart. I can't understand how this guy, who examined it for me, let it pass like that. I found cracked and outright broken aluminum parts, bad joints, and bad bearings. One of the bad bearings was the rudder mount double bearing. Completely shot and ready to fail! When I took this machine apart I was in complete disbelief that someone was actually stupid enough to fly this machine in the condition that it was. I also learned not to trust anyone with inspecting a used gyro for me. Based on what I have seen so far, I expect to unfortunately hear of more accidents due to mechanical failure. I hope it wouldn't be anyone I know.

But I don’t blame the machine!!!

Udi

[murraybarker]

Damm it you people!!!!!! I wish I could swear on this forum.
Paul your half way there, dont start this broken cable crap!!! I have allready heard about the two washers under the torque tube to limit backstick,put there by YOU and held on with TAPE!!!!.Dont start trying to blame the owner for your stuffups.Your attitude has already cured him of any future involvment in gyro's. Respect level at present...ZERO.

[PTKay]

What was it, that we were discussing recently on other threads... ?

"A question of honor" ???

Yes. Birdy, it doesn't matter what happened, everything
can happen to everybody....

But dribbling and denying the facts is not an honorable way to deal
with it....

If I ever had any respect to P.B., it's gone forever...

PTKay

[daveb]

I can't even count the number of lethal defects I found when I took it apart.
Udi, you make some good points for a concerned lurker like myself. In this case the procedure was to remove the neatly applied shrink wrap to verify correctly swaged cable ends. It was my gyro that had the control problem. I should have removed the paint covering the part so I could see if any cracks had developed, or had the foresight to suspect a weakness in the design.

This sort of skill comes from experience, I wonder if people like yourself would consider putting together a list of hard to find gyro faults that you have come across to assist the less mechanically savvy?

Sorry if this is considered a bit off topic.

[murraybarker]

A lot of people do hold Paul in high regard birdy. Paul thinks i dont like him but he's a bit mistaken. I was on the ASRA board for 4 years, 2 as President and the amount of time put in to keep Paul in the air was not insignificant. I can honestly say I'm one of the ones responsable for him being allowed to continue to train in gyro's.
But I get pi.... off when I see grossly inacurate postings about safety,incident reports,and people being blamed for others mistakes.

[birdy]

Udi, It ain't wize to go off half cocked mate, please, I'm try'n me best to help this bloke , who BTW, is his own worst enemy.[ he's still blame'n everybody/ everything except himself :( . As pilot in command, no matter wot any laws say, YOUR RESPONSABLE.] :mad:
The machine didn't crash.
And blam'n the builder isn't very cleaver either.
And for your information, I'v flown numerous other machines for other people, and just as many I refused to even sit in coz of this or that. No, I'm no fool either, even if I only have an uneasy feeling bout the machine, I wont fly it.
IF they want me to make it airworthy, then I'll go into detail.

And Steven, "give the guy a break"?????
Someone who refuses to take responsability for his own stuffup by blame'n someone else, someone who continualy thumbs his nose at not only common sence but also the LAW, not to mention every other Ozy who might just have a little knowlage bout the subject, in this country, ain't guna get a break. :mad:

As I'v said twice already,..........................theres more, and if you don't like eat'n humble pie, like ol mate Ron 'honerably' did ;) , you'll wait till THE TRUTH CUMS OUT. Wether he wants to save face and do it him self, or it cums out OFFICIALY. It'll cum out.
Then you can judge. :)
Personaly, I hope he cums clean, Its all he has left to do. :o
This situation has only bought to a head sumth'n thats been brew'n for a while, and unless he fesses up, it'll all be a crimminal waste of gyro passion and enthusiasum. :mad:

Dave, your point is one reason why I never use paint, it's the ultimate mask for failure. ;) :D

[PTKay]

Writing someone off for an error in judgement isn't honorable either.
Give the poor guy a break. Put yourself in his shoes first. This is a guy with thousands of hours of trouble free flying -- and I'll bet it's embarrassing to have something like this happen. There's pride to consider, and ego. You're all men, and should understand this.

Steve,

I am not writing him off for crushing the machine.

I am writing him of for regularly neglecting the procedures,
and, first of all, for LIES.

Just recently we had a thread here on similar topic, where
all the aspects of the event were discussed for the
sake of the safety of the others.

Immediate report with exact description of the event
was a brave and honorable thing to do.
And it certainly helped many in avoiding similar event.

Pushing up false information and LIES helps nobody and
even endagers them...

To err is human, to admit it is honorable, to try to
dribble and hide away is mean and disgusting...

To put your ego and pride in front of truth and safety
is exactly what makes the difference between a
person I will never respect, and and honorable person.

Just my 2 cents....

PTKay

[Aussie_Paul]

.... seem to think that there is more, but there is no more. My report is exactly what happened. If you know more than I do, please let me know.

I can elaborate on what we did with rotor head and teeter adjstments etc to have the machine fly successfully, if that is what is wanted.

In hindsight I should have not posted at all untill I was able to issue the report.

Aussie Paul. :)

[PTKay]

I have allready heard about the two washers under the torque tube to limit backstick,put there by YOU and held on with TAPE!!!!.

If you are so open Paul, could you elaborate on the above, please ?

[birdy]

I can elaborate on what we did with rotor head and teeter adjstments etc to have the machine fly successfully, if that is what is wanted.

It's up to you Paul, if you want to clear this mess up, ALL will do. After all, you origionaly thought the 'incident' was of no conciquence.
Rotor head!!!!!......I reckon everything is relavent, especialy the rotor head.[theres a couple of annomalies in your discription that don't add up either, so if you want to clear this up, you'll correct them too.]

For your own sake mate ,tell all.

[PTKay]

Where is the indication, that the disconnection of the ruder cable was the reason for, not the result of the accident, created by "fiddling" with the rotor ?

[brett s]

Where is the indication, that the disconnection of the ruder cable was the reason for, not the result of the accident, created by "fiddling" with the rotor ?

If a cable is swaged properly it won't pull loose, it'll break.

[Udi]

...This sort of skill comes from experience, I wonder if people like yourself would consider putting together a list of hard to find gyro faults that you have come across to assist the less mechanically savvy?

Sorry if this is considered a bit off topic.
You are right, Dave - this is off topic. I will start a new thread in the proper place to answer your question.

Birdy and Murray - your hints and insinuations don't help your cause. Do what you are asking Paul to do and write everything that YOU KNOW FOR A FACT. Spreading around third and fourth hand rumors is not any more ethical than telling a lie. If you don't know anything for sure, just keep your silence. If you know something for a fact, say it!

Udi

[banaari]

Where is the indication, that the disconnection of the ruder cable was the reason for, not the result of the accident, created by "fiddling" with the rotor ?

Udi's right: Insinuation by someone who wasn't there based on a hearsay report by someone else who wasn't there... based on what somebody on the airport *thought* might be the cause. Not a good look.

[PTKay]

Udi's right: Insinuation by someone who wasn't there based on a hearsay report by someone else who wasn't there... based on what somebody on the airport *thought* might be the cause. Not a good look.

Udi, John,

just curious, if it is possible, as long as we don't know the
complete story, only the speculations remain...

Again I would like to point the other thread as perfect example
of how we all can profit from this forum.

If you don't remember, there is the link:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3719&page=2&pp=15

Dave Creech should be an example of person of extraordinary integrity and honor.

Unfortunatelly not the case here....

[banaari]

The thing about a conspiracy theory is that by definition it can't be disproved. And that's where I think we're at now.

I don't know where the term "fiddling" came from - but I would consider it absolutely routine for an experienced gyro pilot test flying a brand new machine to check out and if necessary ADJUST hardware setups. It's all in how you phrase it.

Unless there's someone with hard evidence to contradict Paul, let his report stand unchallenged, contribution to safety duly satisfied.

[Cobra Doc]

In Paul's defense, don't know him and wasn't there, I probably see more resutls of experimental aircraft gone wrong on a monthly basis than just about everyone on this board combined has ever seen. There are couple that can probably match me. Based on my back ground and Paul's description of the accident, I can give him creedence. The accident sounds plausible. People do strange things when building a craft they intend to through themselves around the sky in. Putting return springs in the control system is not smart, but it happens a lot. I've actually seen a taiwheel airplane with the rudder control cables running to the tailwheel spring, springs connected to the tailwheel belcrank, two more springs mounted to the belcrank inboard of the first springs with cables connected from the tailwheel belcrank to the rudder bellcrank with two more springs mounted between the rudder and vertical fin. The last two were the "centering" springs. The owner was waiting for his FAA inspection. I really hope it failed.
Anthing else Paul may or may not have done would have had little effect on the separation of an improperly mounted cable.
Paul, I'm glad to hear you survived the excitement.

[jos]

Hello,

Simple practical check before the first flight in a homebuild aircraft or any aircraft not flown before: push both pedals like in panic and check normal operation again before flight.
Same with throttle cable, should have a mechanical stop on the lever.
If not soner or later something will brake on the wrong moment.

JOS

[RICK MARTIN]

I don't usually do this, but I'm going to stick my nose into this.

In reading this thread, never once did it occur to me that Paul was trying to hold back information. What I read was that he would give it to us when he could. And I assumed that he had a very good reason for wanting to wait. I assumed that it was probably a leagl issue. In any case, WOW!!!! It freaks me out the way so many people get so upset so quickly. Please guys, calm down and look for the positive angles to these issues. The important part here is that we did get the report and can learn from it. Paul, I've never met you, but I have nothing but respect for your experience and your sharing of information here. As for the warnings about flying unfamiliar machines, I have to say I agree. I'm not saying don't do it, but my god, there has to be ten times the intensity of inspection and ten times the care in slow progressive steps toward actual flight. Let's be really careful out there. I need all you guys.

I say this as a person who has just had my machine test flown by another. I put my heart and soul into being overly careful, precise and correct during construction knowing my own life would be on the line (never to proud to ask a question or ask for help). But that still doesn't mean someone else should feel comfortable being the first to fly my machine. Having said that, I guess somebody has to be the first with each machine. But damn, what an act of trust in someone else's work. So to Bo and Ron, I am eternally grateful for your trust and thank you.

[KenSandyEggo]

"The owner was waiting for his FAA inspection. I really hope it failed."

It can't "fail" if it's experimental. He can use dental-floss for rudder cables if that's what he wants to try. That's why they send us to the hinterlands to fly off our initial time. My DAR said that if I put an engine and wings on a washer or dryer crate, he'd have to sign it off, because it's "experimental."

[GyroRon]

I am not really upset with Paul at all.

[PTKay]

I think you are right, it IS a legal problem.

As **** was not a member of ASRA at this time, I issued him with a student pilot certificate and arranged to download the ASRA membership and gyro registration/certification forms for **** to fill in. We were staying at Graeme Munro’s place and Graemes internet connection had been down for a couple of days, and was still down.

So probably the dribbling was because the whole event happened
without fulfilling the rules applying in Ozz, (for whatever reason...)
and can be an insurance/liability case...

I stay out of the disscussion under such circumstances.

[gurkle]

….. for the dancing around, sidestepping and avoidance of the Little Wing incident/accident.

Due to situations, beyond my control, I have not been able to report accurately what occurred. I am now free to do this.

The Incident/accident that occurred on Friday the 4th March 2004 with a Little Wing tractor gyroplane.

I arrived at Kotta approx 30 km south west of Echuca in Victoria in Hybrid at approx 6.00 pm on Tuesday the 1st March 2005, and was met by **** **** and his mate Graeme Munroe. **** had built a single seat tractor gyroplane called a Little Wing. **** wanted me to test, certify, and train him to fly his tractor gyroplane.

As **** was not a member of ASRA at this time, I issued him with a student pilot certificate and arranged to download the ASRA membership and gyro registration/certification forms for **** to fill in. We were staying at Graeme Munro’s place and Graemes internet connection had been down for a couple of days, and was still down.

I inspected ****’s gyroplane and began initial testing. A tractor gyro had to be set up a little different to a pusher due to the rotor and tail being quite close. I found a maximum teeter limit of 15 degrees and a rotor disc angle, with full back stick, of 14 degrees to the horizon with the gyro on its 3 wheels to be acceptable. I established that these measurements gave enough back stick for all maneuvers including engine idling approaches and landings at 36 kts. The engine idling tests began with an approach speed of 46 kts IAS and were reduced by 2 kts during each successive approach and landing.

During these tests I conducted some slow flights, and with a 15 kt head wind, conducted some nose high hovering with an IAS of 15 kts. I also reduced power to conduct a number of vertical descents. I had used a VSI to find the best climb speed and a gps to calibrate the ASI which was reading 7 kts slow.

On Friday afternoon at approx. 3.30pm I was approaching to land with the engine idling. The approach speed for this landing was 40kts. At approx 15” I began the flare and a slight right yaw occurred. I applied some left rudder and my left foot went straight to the floor. “Bloody broken rudder cable” I thought, but was not concerned as the yaw stability with the long moment arm of the tractor is excellent. All of a sudden the aircraft yawed violently to the right. I applied opposite stick and everything that I could including increasing power to have the machine as level as was possible for ground contact. Unfortunately the under carriage collapsed, the rotor hit the ground and the machine rolled to the left with the usual damage. I released the full harness and stood up to let **** see that I was ok. The aircraft was pointing approx 170 degree from the approach direction.

I went to the tail feather end to see if the left rudder cable was attached and it was. I then went to the cockpit to find that the left rudder cable had pulled out of the swage. The thimble was still bolted to the left rudder pedal. By this time Keith had arrived and I explained what had happened. I said that I could not believe that the landing could not be carried out without rudder. Upon further investigation I saw that the centering return springs for the rudder were attached to the rudder pedals and pulling forward. I realized then, that the right rudder pedal had been pulled forward by the right rudder pedal return spring.

I had asked **** had he used the special swaging tool to swage all the cables, and he said that he had. There are a number of cables holding the tail feathers in position, as well as the four ends of the rudder cables. All swaged cable ends were neatly covered in black heat shrink. I immediately got out my pocket knife and removed the heat shrink from some of the tail feather cable ends. I was horrified that there where no correct nico press sleeves used. “The sleeves” were approximately 1” lengths of tube with an approximate ID of 1/8th”. These appeared to have been squashed in a vice. The correct nico press sleeves, when applied with the correct tool, actually impregnate between the cable strands to give the ultimate yield strength. I was horrified with this as **** was an engineer and the rest of the machine was quite well built. I pulled on another “swaged” end and the cable slid through the sleeve.

I came home on Saturday morning after telling **** to download and fill out the ASRA forms as soon as Graeme was back on line. I also mentioned to **** that he was also responsible for filling in an ASRA incident report.

This incident/accident has had quite an unnerving effect on me, particularly after realizing that if this had happened at altitude I possibly could have been killed. It has taken a few of days to settle down.
*******************************************

When asked by Gyro Ron did I bend the machine I used a play on words when I said "No I did not". Which is actualy true. The machine almost killed me, I did not bend it.

As the Title says, I apologise, but I could do nothing else at that time.

Aussie Paul.

Lets get to the facts.
According to eye witness accounts the machine crashed straight in with NO yaw. The machine turned approximately 180 degrees to the LEFT, AFTER hitting the ground.
It hit the ground at 90 degrees to the runway in the grass, not attempting to land.
Eye witness reports say that at 50 feet AGL they knew it would crash.
I was told by people involved that a requests to keep it quiet were made because of problems with CASA, I was also told by people involved that a story about hitting tractor ruts was concocted even though the ruts were old and rounded out and a maximum of an inch deep.
The washers on the head were "Held" with black PVC tape and tie wire, the tie wire had moved under the washers and was squashed as if hit by a hammer. Witness marks were present in the aluminium from the washers. The owner suggested drilling a couple of holes in a plate and mounting the spacer to existing bolts but Paul used the tape, wire and washers instead.
Paul undid the nyloc nuts on the anti teeter fly weights until the nuts were past the nylon inserts then put a loop of tie wire around the fly weights.
It was described as rougher than a farmers work by witnesses
Paul had got the owner builder to tow the gyro 2000 (Two thousand) miles down to Kotta to inspect and fly the machine neglecting to mention that there are other qualified people in Queensland at least 1000 miles closer who could inspect and fly the machine.
He charged a very substantial fee for his services, when he crashed he got his money and departed without even helping to remove the gyro.
The above is from eye witnesses, people who knew what they were seeing, flyers.
This whole incident shows total lack honor.
The truth will come out, you cant fool all the people all the time. Blaming others for Pauls failure to fly the machine within it's limits and for rough workmanship reflects very poorly on Paul.

[PTKay]

I don't know where the term "fiddling" came from - but I would consider it absolutely routine for an experienced gyro pilot test flying a brand new machine to check out and if necessary ADJUST hardware setups. It's all in how you phrase it.

As I understood, it was the first time that Paul has seen this
type of gyro. (Not even mention build, repair or fly one).
It was very brave of him to belive, he can "adjust"
the machine, especially in it's rotor angle parameters, which,
as we can read elsewhere, are different from pusher trigear.
Therefore, I think, this kind of "adjustment" by completely
unexperienced person I dare call "fiddling".

It was described as rougher than a farmers work by witnesses

May I also call this kind of work "fiddling" ???

But, again, just my 2 cents...

For me the case, as mentioned above is more legal and psychological
than technical, therefore I quit posting (this time definitely)
on this subject.

[banaari]

Lets get to the facts.
According to eye witness accounts the machine crashed straight in with NO yaw. The machine turned approximately 180 degrees to the LEFT, AFTER hitting the ground.
It hit the ground at 90 degrees to the runway in the grass, not attempting to land.
Eye witness reports say that at 50 feet AGL they knew it would crash.
I was told by people involved that a requests to keep it quiet were made because of problems with CASA, I was also told by people involved that a story about hitting tractor ruts was concocted even though the ruts were old and rounded out and a maximum of an inch deep.
The washers on the head were "Held" with black PVC tape and tie wire, the tie wire had moved under the washers and was squashed as if hit by a hammer. Witness marks were present in the aluminium from the washers. The owner suggested drilling a couple of holes in a plate and mounting the spacer to existing bolts but Paul used the tape, wire and washers instead.
Paul undid the nyloc nuts on the anti teeter fly weights until the nuts were past the nylon inserts then put a loop of tie wire around the fly weights.
It was described as rougher than a farmers work by witnesses
Paul had got the owner builder to tow the gyro 2000 (Two thousand) miles down to Kotta to inspect and fly the machine neglecting to mention that there are other qualified people in Queensland at least 1000 miles closer who could inspect and fly the machine.
He charged a very substantial fee for his services, when he crashed he got his money and departed without even helping to remove the gyro.
The above is from eye witnesses, people who knew what they were seeing, flyers.
This whole incident shows total lack honor.
The truth will come out, you cant fool all the people all the time. Blaming others for Pauls failure to fly the machine within it's limits and for rough workmanship reflects very poorly on Paul.


"Gurkle" - why are you not signing your name to your post,
and why have you carefully ommitted it from your profile?
(As at 21:09NZDT it is showing "N/A").

"I was told" and "according to eyewitnesses" do not cut it.
You weren't there, and without posting your name you're free to fabricate whatever you like and attribute it to "eyewitnesses". If this was a court of law as opposed to a kangaroo court your "facts" wouldn't be admissable.

"The whole incident shows total lack honor".
No, it doesn't.

YOU demonstrate lack of honour and utter cowardice by posting these allegations anonymously.

BTW - If I'd just escaped with my life due someone else's shoddy building, I'd consider that someone fortunate if all I did was walk away. And I'd sure as hell be keeping the money.

John

[banaari]

As I understood, it was the first time that Paul has seen this
type of gyro. (Not even mention build, repair or fly one).
It was very brave of him to belive, he can "adjust"
the machine, especially in it's rotor angle parameters, which,
as we can read elsewhere, are different from pusher trigear.
Therefore, I think, this kind of "adjustment" by completely
unexperienced person I dare call "fiddling".

But, again, just my 2 cents...

For me the case, as mentioned above is more legal and psychological
than technical, therefore I quit posting (this time definitely)
on this subject.

Teeter limits aren't rocket science.
When I finally complete my aircraft, I fully expect all sorts of adjustments and tweaking to be made by the test pilot, who will (as in Paul's case) have vastly more experience than I will, even if I did build it.



...It was described...

May I also call this kind of work "fiddling" ???

I wouldn't be relying on anything posted by "gurkle" until it reveals who he/she/it actually is.

[PTKay]

Teeter limits aren't rocket science.
When I finally complete my aircraft, I fully expect all sorts of adjustments and tweaking to be made by the test pilot, who will (as in Paul's case) have vastly more experience than I will, even if I did build it.

I promissed not to post any more, but....

Were do you take "vastly more experience" from ?

He never flew or adjusted a tractor gyro before !!!!!

It is arrogant and shamless to offer somebody a service,
you are abslutely not prepared to deliver properly.

On the other hand I agree with you, that anonymous posts
should be regarded as non existing until confirmed or signed.

On the other hand do have in mind, that Paul has a long record of
breaching the safety rules as imposed by ASRA and CASA,
and first of all, not reporting officially this event is a breach
in itself. (Not mentioning missing papers in advnce to the test.)

I think, this time Paul is in BIG trouble....

Banaari, I suggest you contact by PM some people from ASRA,
as I did some time before. At that time I stopped posting
on Paul immediately, unfortunately, what was expected to happen
then, happened now, therefore I started putting my 2 cents again.

But now I quit !!!!

PTKay

[birdy]

Do what you are asking Paul to do and write everything that YOU KNOW FOR A FACT.
You can read back through the posts if you like Udi, but I'v never mentioned WOT caused the accident, I just mentioned he had one, and I also said , sh1t happens.
I wasn't there and I havn't seen the mess, so I can't comment onit, can I??

Wot I do KNOW is he tryed to shift all responsability to the owner, witch is wrong, and highlighted a few LISE.
To me , that's not only irrisponsable, but also low.

My only intention in bring'n up the subject was to protect Paul[ unfortunatly I'v failed], coz I new it would cum out, and he'd got himself into a position where he had to deny all responsability.
Woz that a dishonerable move on my part??
I knew wot woz guna happen and I tryed to get Paul to cum clean, before he was found out.
Paul would obviosly think I'm the biggest bastered in the world for start'n this sh1t fight, but he's so narrow minded he will not accept that I woz try'n to help.

YOU demonstrate lack of honour and utter cowardice by posting these allegations anonymously.
He's say'n the same as me John, am I a coward too?
It's just he has access to more detail than I, but its the same story.

[banaari]

Were do you take "vastly more experience" from ?


Long-term gyro instructor versus (I think) non-flying first-time builder. :)
And once again, teeter-limits are not rocket science, tractor or pusher.

And there's no evidence Paul was not "prepared to deliver the service". I'd like to see anybody land successfully with rudder jammed to full deflection one side. (Actually he did - he walked away from it. "Good landing". And after some repairs, they'll be able to use the a/c again. "Great landing". )

John

[banaari]

YOU demonstrate lack of honour and utter cowardice by posting these allegations anonymously.
He's say'n the same as me John, am I a coward too?
It's just he has access to more detail than I, but its the same story.

The word I used was "anonymously". So by definition, no you're not. :)
But until "gurkle" fronts up with a name, I stand by calling it(!) a coward.

Could you please post what you KNOW (and how) that contradicts Paul's account? If all you KNOW is that he blamed the builder... then just maybe he's right.

So far, all I've seen is some second-hand postings of what an "eyewitness" apparently saw. Ask any policeman... eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable.


John

[birdy]

Yes John, 'blame' and the lies , is all I all I'v posted bout, but rest assured, the people I been talk'n to ARE reliable. Nontheless, I'v still reframed from posting on wot I'v heard.

[gurkle]

The word I used was "anonymously". So by definition, no you're not. :)
But until "gurkle" fronts up with a name, I stand by calling it(!) a coward.

Could you please post what you KNOW (and how) that contradicts Paul's account? If all you KNOW is that he blamed the builder... then just maybe he's right.

So far, all I've seen is some second-hand postings of what an "eyewitness" apparently saw. Ask any policeman... eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable.


John

From the other side of a computer screen you only get what is presented to you by the poster so you have doubts as to the veracity of my post.
I dont want to get into a personal slinging match but it seems that a lot of unpleasant details will have to come out.

Okay what do I know? I talked directly to several people, pilots and others who actually saw the crash, the words I used came out of their mouths. That is not second hand information or hearsay. They had no reason to lie and I have no reason to lie, all I want is for the person responsible to be a man and accept that responsibility. You say eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable but how unreliable are a group of pilots, aviation enthusiasts and others who are actively watching a new aircraft and new type flying? They are not your usual "Off the street robbery" witnesses but should be regarded as expert witnesses. Does the fact that they all said the same thing, all confirmed what had happened make you think that they have all seen the same thing?
I actually inspected the crash site and saw the impact marks, the aircraft had rotated to the left after impact.
No one said anything about rudder problem.
I actually inspected the head.
Yes my information is admissible in a court of law because it was first hand.
I know he got the owner to tow the gyro 2000 miles going right past other people who could have done the job. I know he stuck out his hand for $1,100 and left without helping with the wreck.
I know Paul was grounded by CASA but decided to fly a couple of thousand miles to the nationals last year and publicized his flight and his landing on roads and wondered why he was in trouble. I know he has had many crashes but always has a silly excuse like having oil on his blades when he hit a fence on take off. I know it's difficult for people who know him to believe him.
If you still dont believe me that is your privilege but the truth will come out in official circles.

[Aussie_Paul]

.....and the figure of $1100 is totally incorrect. There was only the owner as a witness within at least a mile.

Poor old gurkle does this every so often to me. I am proud of him though, as he has refrained for almost a year now. ;)

Birdy, no I am not mad at you. I am mad at prople who post incorrect and unsubstantiated info attacking me. I take it on the chin when I am guilty, always have. I had rudder cable failure, and due to the spring on the right rudder pedal being strong enough to apply enough right rudder I was not able to retain control.

The owner would not let me take pics, or bring a swage home. I should have pushed for that. I am told by a gyro pilot who saw the wreckage on the Sunday that all the cables and swages had been removed, but that may have been necessary for transport. The right rudder cable was cut off approx 2" from the rudder pedal, so there should be a swage to be examined.

The owner and I got along extremelly well, and he was pleased to have his machine fly so nicely, as was I. He was extremelly upset about the swage failure that could have killed me, but I was more concerned about his lovely gyro. His answer was that machines can be rebuilt, and he was thankful that I was not hurt that much. I was appreciative of that.

As far as being legal, please get out the ASRA ops manual and read what it says. There are a number of hours allowed before joining ASRA, as there are a number of hours before having to have a student certificate.

Please get the facts first.

The only thing that I am guilty of is the stringing out of the report on the forums, and yes I wished I had stripped the lovely workmanship conducted on the heat shrink. Maybe I am too nice to peoples feelings. Has anybody stopped to think of how a new gyro pilot would have fared had it happened to him at 500'. His wife could have become a widow!!!!!

Aussie Paul. :)

[birdy]

The only thing that I am guilty of is the stringing out of the report on the forums,

Wot your guilty of, and wot lost you the respect of alota people Paul, was your lies and blame shifting, and we're all alike, once bitten twice shy. You now gota expect people to be sceptical with near everything regarding credability , coz of that little slip up, and you can't blame anyone but yourself.
Forget bout the heat shrink, that's something, [if it is true ] that would'v caught out the best inspecter. Your problem now is your credability, which will only stand any chance of repare with compleat honesty.
And if any other damageing information cums to light over this, that you fail to it put up, it's guna get worse.Don't for get that.

And I'm not sure your in the position at the moment to judge others on their credability either.

[Caribean_gyro]

I learned from a good FAA friend to :
1: always use 2 nicopress .
2: take solid coper wire and tied it around the end of the cables very tight .
3: with a soldering gun put solder around the copper wire.
4: then use LPS3 or Blackbear oil on all my cables.

Heatshrink tubing only hides most and bad workmanship. If I have to test fly any machine after I comb it and feel secure then I do jump on the runway until confortable and then a pattern or 2. That it the rest is the owner to fix or continued the test flight.

I am glad Paul you are ok. Keep it that way
ChuckP

[Aussie_Paul]

ASRA, who are supposed to look after sport gyroplane peoples interests and administer on behalf of the Authorities, have seen fit to suspend all my gyroplane flight privileges as well as my technical inspection privileges. :eek:
Ah well, such is life. They turn a blind eye to some regulations and persecute others. Quite hypocritical really.

Oh yes, I make my share of mistakes with paperwork. As I have told investigators, if the day is suitable for the students activities, I will fly and fill in the paperwork after the wind has blown up and it is unsuitable to fly.

There are approx 300 gyros in Oz that are illegal everytime they fly. I don't care as the rule is a silly one, BUT when I get into trouble over technical rules such as being 21 days late with membership dues I get fined $1650. Hypocritical again.

To the people who have used some comon sense over this I appreciate it. To the people who have never trained a student, never test flown a students machine, and in some cases never flown, shame on you. :mad:

My livelihood is now gone, for how long I don't really care as I have to admit than I have been well and truly beaten. :o It is 3.00 am in the morning and I am a little stunned to say the least. I have not been spoken to about the events, just guilty until proven innocent. Apparently ASRA have been told that a modification that I conducted on the rotor head to stop the tail being hit by the rotor is the possible the cause of the accident. No investigation, no phone calls, just an email at midnight informing of this decision by the ASRA Operations Manager, who I don't see eye to eye with on a number if issues.

The machine had no teeter what so ever and the head angle was not set up as per the plans!!!!! I fix all of this to make the machine fly safely. I then have a cable swage fail, do my damdest to try and save the machine, and end up like this!!!

I now have to have a hard look at whether I want to be part of helping people to get into gyroplanes (my passion), or just fade away and go play golf!!!! :confused:

You can probably see that this has had a marked effect on me and I need to get some of it off my chest!!! :mad:

I would have trained as many people and possibly set up and tested as many machines as anyone in Oz. Actually I probably lead the way considerably over my 22 years of powered gyroplane flying. :)

I started flying gyrogliders in 1961, and powered in 1982. I have bent a few bits and pieces in that time, but I also have gained an enormous amount of knowledge that can only be gained by having ones hand on the stick. You cannot buy that expeience, it is earned. I have been so lucky to have been in that position. :D

Sorry for the epilogue, but I feel that there are many more out there supporting me than there are damning me. To those supporters I offer my gratitude. :D

I am sure that the EAA or PRA would support their member, even if they are not perfect.

Not so perfect Aussie Paul, in deeper s**t than usual. :eek: :eek:

[banaari]

From the other side of a computer screen you only get...

I doubt the veracity of your post because you're still too cowardly to post your name.

Something stinks.

[banaari]

ASRA .. have seen fit to suspend all my gyroplane flight privileges as well as my technical inspection privileges...

Paul, I'm really sorry to hear this. :(
Presumably there's some sort of due process?
John

[Harry_S.]

Stand straight Paul...keep your head up high. ;)

Surely, there is some recourse to this ASRA action?! :confused:


Cheers :)

[Chuck Roberg]

Paul, I'm astonished to hear they would suspend your privileges with out even talking to you. I thought our FAA was bad!!!.

Please, please don't give up. Keep up a good fight.

I'll be in your corner cheering you on.

[birdy]

When are you blokes guna git it???

It's not the accident thats started this sh1t fight, its Paul's overall attitude to the common laws, that he's been slack with for years, piss'n off alota people in the process, not to mention the lies and blame shifting of late.
You seem reluctant to accept that he's been piss'n people off over ere for along time.
HE is his own worst enemy, no one else.
This is only the last straw.

And as far as you lot say'n we're judge'n him too harshly, look at yourselves, you know less than the blokes over here, and you say we'v no credability???
Take off your rose coloured glasses, and see the real picture, ............. if thats wot your interested in.
__________________

[CLS447]

This is absolute bulls**t !! I am on your side Paul . Don't give up without a fight!

[Vance]

I am confused as usual, what is the goal here? I see a reminder to pre flight better, I see that everyone can make mistakes, I see that the athorities are the same everywhere. I hope that the next time I make a series of mistakes people will be more generous about it than they have been with Paul.

David, In my opinion, if Paul is as bad as you say he is, then public humiliation is not going to change him.

I believe that we all need to make an effort to improve the reputation of gyroplane enthusiasts and I find value in accident discusions. I don't feel that either purporse is being served here. It doesn't feel like a consumer allert either.

I feel that such negitive discourse hurts us all. When I have such negitive feelings toward someone, it is a a little like taking poisen and expecting the other person to die. The best thing I can do is recognize that it is not my job to controll the universe and let things take their coarse.

Weather or not Paul deserves his challanges with the athorities, I still can empathise with his pain and hope it can be resolved in a positive way. Maybe it will give him a chance to bring his Firebird to the market.

I love the passion, but I think it is time to turn the volume down. Thank you, Vance

[The Rock]

Right on, Vance!!!

[mrford61]

I would rather stick pins in my eyes than comment on rights and wrongs or truths and half - truths here but one point worth a comment.
If this festers there will be 2 camps, pick a side, go at it, strain freindships and ABSOLUTELY nothing gained.



Mark Clifford

[Chopper Reid]

If an official investigation is done, then I think we will all still be one happy camp. There is apparently more to the story then we have been told to date and in time, all will be revealed.
I believe, had we been told the truth right from the start then things would have been diferent.Even little fibs have caused me much pain over time, thankfully, I have learnt the error of my ways.

[Aussie_Paul]

There is no more re the accident Brian. Keith asked me not to take pics, so I do not have any proof, only some people who viewed the wreckage. It seems that some of the evidence has been left in Victoria.

Keith told me that he tested the first couple of "so called swages" that he did and they held up ok. Just a pity that he did not test them all.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Birdy, do you still fly the feral I saw at Bond springs?

Aussie Paul. :)

[birdy]

Yeh Paul...

[Chopper Reid]

I too hope there's no more, re the accident Paul.
I'm glad you didnt get hurt but I was disappointed on how you handled the whole thing, specially to all on the forum. This 'play with words thing', would I be right in suggesting this may well have caused you grief before? Its way much better to just be straight and honest. There is only one person who can judge you.

[PTKay]

I hope this is a good point to stop the theread, as Murray did in Ozz...

Whatever Paul. I'm no longer interested .
I've decided to do somthing to try and salvage this mess.Those that are interested please go to the "Wanted" section.

M Barker

Here the link to the section...

http://www.asra.org.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=884

[Aussie_Paul]

I too hope there's no more, re the accident Paul.
I'm glad you didnt get hurt but I was disappointed on how you handled the whole thing, specially to all on the forum. This 'play with words thing', would I be right in suggesting this may well have caused you grief before? Its way much better to just be straight and honest. There is only one person who can judge you.

I don'd believe so Brian. It is not a trait of mine, I am usually very straight to the point. This had some external from me situations that I had no control over for a few days.

In hindsight,I handled that part of it badly, and have been well and truly crucified for it. :o

All of that has nothing to do with the actual accident.

Aussie Paul. :)

[CLS447]

Paul, could I get you input on the RAF, SH steering thread? It would be appreciated. Thanks, Chris

[Rotornut]

Paul, I am glad you are alright. Just read this post somehow I missed it the last couple visits. Take Care and keep us posted on the findings. MJ :)

[John_wilkinson]

I have seid it befor and i will say it again''Paul'' come on over to NZ we would be glad to have you,i have sean this man at work he is good at what he dos so he may of made a mistack or two but those that have not made a mistack have not made anything.Chin up Paul.
John Wilkinson