Day in the Car Business

[Screw]

Since this is an Off Topic section, Limited to gyronauts and wanna bees, mostly friends, and because I'm just plain borred....I thought I'd use this thread as a vent and to discuss things that go on in the car business from my (a dealer's) point of view ;D

Most of which are gonna be things that, to me, are funny, strange, and daily stuff.

I am an honest business man and have no problems telling all. However, due to privacy laws, no names will every be mentioned.

Also, If I have something you like, All I have is available for sale to the members of this forum and family for $300 over cost plus any applicable taxes for you city, state, county.

Just thought I'd throw that in.

John-

[GyroRon]

I am buying a beater myself this week. I am still shopping. I put a 1500$ budget on it and have found a few vehicles to look at so far. Just about everything in that price range seems to have been driven to the moon and back, several times! But we will see.

I wanted a Diesel vw - can't find one cheap enough - or a Benz - plenty of them except they all have a zillion miles and high price of benz parts and service scares me away. So now I am looking at imports - no cavaliers or grand ams for me thank you... and I won't even consider a ford.

So I have about narrowed it down to either a import mini truck or a import car, either one will likely be either Subaru or Suzuki powered. This way I can drive it till the wheels fall off and then yank the engine and put in on a gyro ;)

I would - LIKE - to buy from a dealer but I just don't feel good about it. dealing with some of the private sellers though is not exactly all that good either.

[Screw]

Today started out to be a promising day, I wholesaled two units last night at the local auction, and had a winner on ebay due to settle up and take delivery today, and another winner I needed to make contact with.

Got to work, and the ebay winner was waiting on me, already looking over the jeep cherokee 4x4 he had won on ebay. After passing the eye contact and handshake test, he was ready to test drive his vehicle. He was gone maybe 15 minutes and came back eyes as big as saucers. He complained about the handeling of the vehicle, miles, rour of the tires, and of, the cost (he won this vehicle on ebay...meaning he set the price). I epathised with him, because it is hard to tell exactly what your getting over the internet. I said, "If you fell like I have misrepresented the vehicle on ebay, or if you feel like this just isn't the vehicle for you, don't buy worry about. If you don't want it, you don't have to buy it. I'll offer it to the next highest bidder. No harm, no foul." I meant it too. I don't give anyone a hard time who is willing to drive from wherever they came from. If they don't like the car, they don't like the car.

The guy was digging in his pockets for the cash before I could finish my sentence....Another happy customer "Bustin Bugs."

John-

[Screw]

The second winner on ebay, I had a problem with. He won my 1999 for Taurus SE with only 84k miles for $3,051.00

We made contact while my first buyer was here, and all went well. We agreed to meet tomarrow 11am. Later today, the guy calls back! He tells me that he needs me to pay his sales taxes on this vehicle or he ain't gonna do the deal! In my most professional demeaner, I inform the person from TN, that I do not collect sales taxes for Out-Of-State buyers. I process the title, but your local sales taxes would be collected by the county in which you register you vehicle.

He then says, "Well you can lower your price to absorb the taxes, if you want my business." ::) Middle eastern accent this guy has.

I repeat what he said, "You want me to pay your sales taxes or falsify my legal documents to help you evad paying whatever sales taxes are due on your vehicle purchase. I told him, I can't do that. I'd rather lose you business, than my license.

So later, he calls back again and says he has a friend who is a dealer who will buy this car for him. Again, I declined stating a dealer didn't win this vehicle on ebay, you did. So now this guy doesn't want the car.

So, I say to him, "Let me get this straight, so I'll know what to tell ebay, you don't want to complete this transaction because you are just finding out that I have to sell the car to you , the winner, and at the price you bid?" Yeah, I don't think I'll be able to do it he says.

After leaving a rather nasty feedback and reporting to ebay about a non-paying buyer, I offered the vehicle up for second chance to the next highest bidder.

Some people! What are they thinking?

John-

[Screw]

Sorry Ron,

I was typing as you were posting. As you know, I'll do whatever I can to help you out. If you wanna go with me to an auction, just let me know.

The phrase you were looking for is, "More miles than the Space Shuttle!"

I will also, for no fee, offer any support I can to those of you who are currently trying to buy a car, or just need some advice.

To answer Ron, you are better protected by law going through a dealer rather than an individual, however, the dealers know the laws better than an individual.

John-

[ToddP]

John,

I think every business has its goof balls. I just got home from dinner with my wife. She is in the restaurant business and was telling me about two different incidents this evening. The first people needed all the silverware and glassware on the table replaced, because the server touched the water glass with the pitcher while filling it. The next people wanted to sit in the bar. There were 9 tables. 2 tables already had people at them and one table hadn't been bussed yet. So with 6 clean tables and 1 table that hadn't been cleaned yet...where do you suppose they sat? And then started ranting as soon as they sat down. She said it was "kook bag" night ;D.

For me I get a little taste of the bizarre with every shift at the fire dept. This morning we had a medical call at 5:30 a.m. (our 4th since midnight). Her Chief complaint was a toothache. She called 911 and wanted to go by ambulance to the hospital for her toothache. It was a pretty typical shift here's a sample of our calls yesterday: Pregnant lady was hit by a car illegally crossing the street (she was fine). Girl fell and possibly broke, but most likely sprained her ankle on the stage while rehearsing for a play. Old guy, about 85 was having chest pain, possibly a heart attack but most likely angina. Lady about 55 with lots of health problems choked on a piece of food, we did CPR and had a good strong pulse by the time we got to the ER. We had a regular drunk who fell down in a snow bank, we sent him to detox. We had a fire call downtown that turned out to be a burnt pot of food. I think we had a total of about 11 calls but I really can't remember.

I really enjoy my job. The guys I work with are some of my best friends. But like any job, whether its selling cars, managing a restaurant or anything else, there are goofy people to deal with. You can either let them drive you crazy, or just laugh a little and move on (no matter how hard it is to laugh some times).

[Screw]

Todd,

Sounds like you do have alot of fun with your job. I love my job and it doesn't get me down. If anything, it gives me alot to laugh about.

Not very many people really know what goes on in the car bizz, therefore, I hope to provide some interesting reading while all is waiting to fly.

Back to you Ron-

[Screw]

Ron,

You said you were looking for a "beater." You also said, you'd never own a ford. Do I have a great example for you:

The types of cars you are looking for as a beater....Mercedes Benz, VW diesel or any car you can use the motor for gyros after the wheels fall off. They can be found, but are often diificult to find and as you said, way to many miles for the money, or so far away, the expense of transport, however you do it, exeeds what you want. Remember my Mercedes story? I flew to Chicago to get that car because I felt, the price I bought it for was worth it. Because it was a diesel, I wasn't worried about the 205k miles iether. It was a calculated risk that didn't work out.

Ford.....What can I tell you. The car you need to be looking for as a beater should be a car that is available a dime a dozen. I personally dislike the Ford Taurus, but they run, they are available literally a dime a dozen, and people buy them. For example: I found at an auction a 1999 Ford Taurus with 84k miles. I though this car would be more money than I was willing to spend. After going over the car really good, I found that something wasn't quite right. Everytime I reved up the motor you could feel more than hear a pop. This car rolled though the lane rather late and the crowd had thinned out considerably, To my amzement, almost in fear of what I had done, I bought the car for $1600. After buying fees, $1695. After transport, $1745. I contract with a guy to check out my cars, and it turned out to be a broken motor mount. After repair, lube, oil, filter, and detail, I had all total $2131.10 in the car!

The sale of this vehicle will pay the rent, even on ebay! The person who buys it will have a sound automobile for less than most.

I try not to buy cars that everyone is looking for, like Honda accords, Acura, ect. (Unless I can steel it)... Because People at the auctions go nuts over these cars especially Toyota....Everyone wants them, and private people as well as dealers really step into them hard to obtain them. I have found that when I have these cars, there are alot of people looking for them, but they are only willing to pay about what I buy them for, maybe a little more. This is called (Buyers market type cars and trucks).

I like selling odd ball vehicles that certain people are looking for like 1990 Suburban 4x4s, Police interceptor crown vics, Buik Park Avenues, Lincoln Continentals, old Bellsouth work vans. Although I offer a Buy Here Pay here service, most of my cars are sold over the internet, or cash deals to people who are looking specifically for those type cars.

You can buy a late 80's model Mercedes Benz Turbo Diesel between 1500-2500 depending on condition, but who knows what you'll have to do to it to maintain it to the point it would be worth it to you.

Another thing to consider when it comes to guestimating conditions of vehicles is previous owners....not specifically, but who would have owned a certain car. For example, Who do you think would have owned a 1995 Lincoln Continental and how well do you think it would have maintained verses say a 1995 Toyota Camery? Answer:

The 1995 Lincoln Continental most likely was owned by an older man or woman and was likely very well maintained and traded in on a newer one.

The 1995 Toyota Camery was most likely owned by a younger family with kids and was the primary driver. This vehicle will probably have more miles and was maintained when needed (Oil changes every 3-6k miles). This vehicle too was probably traded in on a newer vehicle.

Book Values on these vehicles are as follows:

Lincoln Continental...1150 rough 3900 clean 2500 adverage

Toyota Camery SE ...2450 rough 4650 clean 3475 adverage.

As you can see, these two vehicle are world apart both in type and value, but which one is more bang for the buck can be argued.

John-

[GyroRon]

John I don't know..... I am sure I can trust you and I know there are some deals at auction, but I have been tainted for that kind of stuff.

First off I used to be best friends with a kid whose Father was a owner of a Buy here, pay here car lot. - He was also a pretty high ranking bookie in our area too but that is another story - Anyway I spent a few years of my life either working or hanging out at that car lot and saw the crap that went on byhind the scenes. If there was a mechanical problem it was fixed the absolute cheapest way possible. No repair had to last long just long enough to get the car a buyer. The prices we charged for downpayment more than covered our investment in the car. Every weekly payment afterwards was gravy. We bought all our cars at auction and about half of them were pure junk once we got them back from the auction. The other half were okay for old junkers. Sometimes we would end up with a decent car, but nearly all of the good ones we got were big american cars, cars like Buick Park Aven. Oldsmobiles, etc.... Anyway in retrospec most of our customers got what they deserved in a way, quite often we would have to repo our car back and it would always be thrashed.

I personally had bad luck at the auction. I took a family member there to buy a cheap car a few years ago. I walked around and walked around and finally found " THE " car for her. It was a Olds tornado, one of the last years they made it with a big V8 engine and front wheel drive. Anyway it checked out at auction and ran flawlessly. I drove it up and down the rows of cars and made sure it wasn't burning oil and that everything worked. Well we bid on it and won the auction and went to pay for it. We had to come back the next day to take it home and it never made it out of the parking lot. It threw a rod as it sat there warming up. Apparently the seller had put something in the oil to quiet the knocking and it lasted just long enough to sell.

I also know a friend who worked for a business that would buy wrecked and or broken down late model cars from auction. They would fix the cars as cheaply as they could. Many times re using head gaskets, or using several gallons of bondo to fill dents, or yanking a high miles engine - 100plus thousand miles - out of a wrecked car and putting it in a car with low miles and a good clean body but a blown engine. All of these cars would end up back at auction where a quick hassle free sale could be made for a quick profit.

I also knew a friend who was a car salesman and to hear the stories he would tell about how people who wanted to lease instead of buy a car, the sales staff would up charge the car and sell it for several grand over sticker price. Since there was so much paperwork in the lease they never understood that the lease payment is still based on the price the car sold for. And it was easy for the salesmen to pull off this scam.

I also buy alot of new cars - 11 since 1993. I hate how I can sit down for a whole afternoon and the dealers best price can get lower and lower as time goes on. I thought the best price was the best price? The first time I asked for a best price, what did they quote me???? Anyway it is funny how If you get the days best price - after hours of negotiations - and leave and go to a few other dealers to get their best prices, someone else will always beat the deal and once you get a even better deal at another dealer, if you go back to the first dealer and show him the price to beat, he will beat it. But I wonder how could they beat it if they had already given me the best possible price.

And don't get me started on trade in values!! >:( >:( >:(
this is the big rip of car dealers.

All of these things make me doubt trusting the typical car sales place.

I do trust you John, wish you were closer, I might would give it a try.

[Screw]

Ron,

Those are not very uncommon stories, and unfortunately, it sound like you have had some very bad experiances. Unfortunatley it also sounds like you had front row seats to a shady BHPH (buy here, pay here) place.

I too have been the victom of a crafty mechanic that literaly has cost me thousands of dollars.

As you know, when you go to an auction, this is the first time you see some of these cars. I'm no mechanic, but I do know some things to look for in certain models. Even so, I been bit more than once after having a car transport to my lot and find out it is junk. As a business, you have to make a decision on what to do about it. I prefer to stitch them back up and run it back through the auction and lose a hundred or two, than try and fully repair the vehicle and retail it out.

When I have a car checked out, and repairs are noted, I've already invested more money than I paid for it. So, the question is: Will the car hold up BHPH style? What will it take to get it there? Is it worth it?

When cars quit running, people stop paying. Funny how that works. I am still fairly new in business, but not new to buying and selling cars. Word of mouth goes alot further than most people think, so I do try as hard as I can to always do the right thing.

John-

[Screw]

As an added foot note:

In a new car dealership, the sales department is divided into three seperate depts. New cars, used cars, finance. Each Dept has a manager that is responsible for making money in that department. You have to combat each department one at a time to be sucessfull.

Most people want to buy there new car for what the dealer paid. Sell there car for it's reatail value, and reap the benifits. You've even heard dealers say, "I can't sell you my car for wholesale and trade with you retail." I have to give you wholesale for your car too. Wholesale to wholesale or retail to retail.

Most people don't know what wholesale values are therfore, they get into a fight with very little to fight with other than an idea. I say fight with facts and come out on top. Use the dealers facts against them.

Buying new cars is simple. The formulat is: Retail to Retail minus rebates:

1. Go to any website like www.kbb.com (Kelly Blue Book) or edmonds ect. and find the RETAIL value of your car. Be honest as to condition and print the page. *What you owe on a vehicle has nothing to do with value*

2. At this point decide wheather you are in a position to trade. Compare retail value of your car verses payoff (if any). If you owe more than what your car is worth, be prepared. You already owe that money. If less than, you have equity ;D

3. Decide on make and model of the new vehicle you would like to purchase with all options you would like to have.

4. Locate a dealer with desired vehicle and say the majic words to your salesperson, "I will buy today, If all figures are agreeable." This saves time. The salesman will demo you in the vehicle and you can verify that this is the new vehicle you would like to own. If this isn't the right one, tell the saleperson and maybe they can help you find the right one. Remember, the saleman don't get paid until you buy, so at this point, they want to help. If this is or you find the right vehicle based only on vehicle and options (not price) repeat those majic words.

5. This part will floor you and the salesman: Tell the saleman when he asks "Where do you want your payments?", "We are not to that part yet. I'll buy your car today for STICKER, if you buy mine for STICKER too." And give him a copy of that Retail value you printed out on your computer. The saleman will look at you funny, get the keys to your car and have the "Used Car manager" look at you car. The used car manager looks at your car as if he is looking at this at an auction, and will only put a value he believes he could buy it for if he were the only person at that auction. You probably won't ever see this value because he will write it down on a secret piece of paper and pass it to the "Desk (New Car) Manager" (this is the guy that will structure you deal). The desk manager will look at and roll his eyes and try to beat up the used car manager for more money on the spot. If the deal happens then the used car manager will own your car for the value that is on that paper. To make money for the "Used car Dept," he will try to keep this figure as low as possible. The "Desk Manager or (New car manager)," in an attempt to make money for his department will try to get the Used Car manager to inflate the value given. All of this is going on while you wait patently. The salesperson eventually comes back to you with four peices of information: 1) Sticker for new car minus any rebates, 2) Very low trade value for your car, 3) Very high Down payment, 4) Very high monthly payments. This is designed to send you to the roof. Did it work? How many of have walked out at this point? Waiting for the best deal only to be shown a deal that the dealership would like to have. SOBs should be shot. Most folks blow up on the salesperson, and then a "Floor Manager" comes out and tries to close the deal.

6. Maintain control and remove you emotions. Wheather your talking to the sales person or a manager doesn't matter. Simply repeat those majic words, "I don't have a problem with paying sticker for your car, but we won't be able to do business today if you won't pay sticker for mine too. As far as payments and down payments go, I'd rather discuss that with your finance manager, or my bank." A statement like that will send the "Floor manager" or salesperson running back to the "Desk Manager." While they are in conferance behind closed doors, stand up. This will put a sense of urgency in the managers to make a decision. The management team will likely try to infate the value of your trade by using the rebates. Rebates are yours, given to you by the manufacturer, not the dealer. Don't let them use the rebate to inflate the value of you car. If the management team is unwilling to trade with you retail to retail minus rebates, find another dealer who is. If they agree to your terms, they will send you to the finance office to discuss payments and monthly payments.

It is alway a good idea for you to sit down with your bank prior to shopping, and get an idea of exactly what you will qualify for. Have your bankers phone number handy.

7. The Finance manager will try to sell you everything under the sun from credit life ins, GAP ins, maintenance plans, and extended warrenties. You have to decide for yourself which products you could use or not. Since I personally finance most new cars with very little down payment, I prefer GAP ins, in the event I total the car prior to obtaining equity. Don't buy into the more products you buy, the lower your intest rate will be. That is a scam.

8. The finance manager will be very ambiguis about what your payments and interest rate will be especially after hours because he has no approvals from any bank yet. He will try to structure a deal based on guidlines he/she has from these banks with HIM making the most money. What do you do? Buy cars during business hours.

9. Interests rate do vary based on the amount of down payment. Putting money down is not a bad thing and often times helps you obtain interest rates better than you thought. Tell the finance manager how much money you want to put down if any. Obtain the exact amount to be financed and excuss yourself from his office and call your banker. You banker will work for you and tell you what they can do based on the money you are willing to put down effects the overall amount to be financed.

10. Go back to the finance manager and tell him what your bank says they can do. Whenever he gives you a payment and a rate, ask to see the approval and the BUY RATE from that bank. This might even make him mad, because the buy rate is exactly that. This is the rate that bank will buy the loan from the dealer for. This is the rate you want to pay. It's ok if the finance manager gets mad, this is your money. If he is competitive with your bank, you decide what to do. If he is unwilling to compete with your back, have him fax your banker the "Buyers Order," and they will work out the details of exchanging the funds. Or you can take a copy of the buyers order to you banker and get the funds yourself.

The end. "Coffee is for Closers" ;)

John-

This formula also works on used cars too.

[ToddP]

John,

Excellent explanation of the car business. I will definately point some people towards your post. Monday through Friday, if I'm not at the Fire Dept. my 2nd job is CFO of the Spokane Firefighters Credit Union http://www.firecu.net . Over the years I've seen some people walk in with horrendous deals they've made. I've always tried to explain to people they are essentially working on 3 different deals. 1. Negotiating a new car price 2. Negotiating a trade in of their vehicle 3. Finance arrangements. Unfortunately car dealerships are a "one stop shop" that can do everything for you. Its difficult to get them to lock down one number or the other. You have to be very careful about everything they offer. They'll meet your price, but they'll give you nothing for your trade in. They'll meet your payment request, but you'll be paying for 72 months and most often at a much higher interest rate.

Fortunately it seems like car dealers are becoming much more ethical. There don't seem to be the games like there were 10 years ago. It seems like they're offering their best price fairly early and thats it. If its more than you want to pay, thanks for coming in. My brother in law was the GM of a large Ford Dealership in town. He told me several times that new car sales were nearly break - even. The dealership made most of their money in service. All sales people were required to take their new customers back to the service dept. and introduce them in an attempt to establish a long term relationship.

Anyway, this was much more long winded than I had intended, I just wanted to say thanks for the great explanation.

Alright, now how about some more stories of Bizarre customers?

Todd

[Screw]

Todd,

You hit the nail, right on the head. New car purchases are really break even, used car purchases are much better money wise for the dealer. Salespeople are free to the dealer because if they don't sell cars, they don't get paid. Finance Department rake in a ton by manipulating rates, terms, and then using your credit, or your lack of knowledge about what you qualify for, against you to justify the deal.

By far, the most profitable department in any dealership is the service department. Warrenty work pays dealers well. Doesn't cost you much but a deductable. How much up front (when you buy the car) are you willing to pay or have financed to protect your new vehicle or give you peace of mind if something breaks? How often will that something break after 70k miles, and how much will you still owe on it?

Food for thought.

No bizarre customers today....Balancing books and paying taxes.

John-

[PW_Plack]

John, Todd...

I admire the method my brother uses. His last six or so vehicles have been new Ford pickups. He drives them to 150K miles or more, buys a new one, and keeps the old one for a second vehicle. His process is as follows:

(1) Research the truck he wants, and exactly what he thinks he should pay.

(2) Get pre-approved at the Navy Credit Union, and actually get a cashier's check made out for the full amount of the vehicle, with only the dealer's name to be filled in.

(3) Start dealer-hopping, tell each salesman exactly what he wants, show them the check, and make it clear that he'll fill in that blank at SOME dealer that day.

The reaction is...well, like mice on meth in a treadmill!

[ToddP]

Paul,

I really like that system. It seems like a great way to make your deal. The problem I'd have is this. I'm pretty reluctant to send off a member with a $25,000.00 cashiers check that is not filled in. Its as good as cash and until a deal has been struck, its $25,000 that is unsecured by collateral. Of course we'll do pretty much anything for our "good" members and obviously your brother is in that situation at Navy CU. Which by the way is the largest Credit Union in the World. They're HUGE. ;D

Todd

[GyroRon]

the dealer would rather give you a loan than take that check Paul. your brother is cutting another profit the dealer wants to make.

but on the flip side they see the check and know that at least if they get the numbers right, they will have a sale and everyone will make a few bucks for the day.

Just like the best deals come at the end of the month. They want to close out the month with as many sales as possible and they will be more agressive on the last few days of the month

[GyroRon]

Also, I have always had " good " credit. To be honest my credit has been more than good compared to many average folks, so I should get a " good " rate right?

Well in all the times I have bought stuff, only once did I get a better rate than the dealer from a local bank. It was for a motorcycle which normally can be quite a high rate through the dealer.

Like anything else in a sale of a car, the interest rate is not set in stone. I have seen the rate go down two points just so my payment would be where I wanted it - told them once in the finance office I had changed my mind and the only way I would do the deal was to shave off 20 or 30 a month on the same vehicle and get up to leave. Dropping the rate 1 percent makes a big change in the payment!

Right now I can't complain though. Both my 03 Chevy Avalanche, and 03 Chevy trailblazer are financed with GMAC and I got 60 month loans at zero percent on them both! ;D Can't beat zero!

[Screw]

All righty now!!! We some some discussion going on!!!

First up Paul,

Your brother does it right!!! With the check in hand he demonstrates to every dealer he sees, "I have the power to buy....RIGHT NOW!!!" Mice on Meth is mild till you hear what happened to the saleperson that let him go.

Ron,

Are you sure 0% is the best deal for you? Most large dealers offer 0% or a Rebate. Sometimes both if the model isn't selling well. I'm not second guessing you and I'm sure you got the right deal for yourself, however, some people think that 0% is a helava thing...It aint.

If you have "Good Credit" and normally qualify for prime rates at the banks with new vehicle purchases, chances are your finance charges would be less (over the term of the loan) than the amount of the rebate to begin with. Example:

New any make and model has $3000 cash back or 0%. Say the vehicle lists for 30k. 30k over 60 mo @ 0% is $500 per month. Interest paid is 0. Or use the 3000 rebate and buy for 27k over 60 mo @ 3.9% is 496.03 per month. Total interest is 2,761.72. A couple hundred less than the rebate. But the upside is your not paying interest, just more for the car than you had too ;D

John-

[GyroRon]

Yeah I know that for some people the rebate is better. especially on the cheaper cars. But for me it was n't the better deal. Just do the math....

Truck is 650 per month for 60 payments
Suv is 625 per month for 60 payments

I could have gotten a regular rate and took a 3 or maybe 4 thousand dollar rebate. The only way I saw it was better for me to have taken the rebate was if I was planning on traing in in three years or less. Elsewise the 0 percent was the better choice.

Did you get my private email I sent to you tonight?

[Screw]

No on the Private email Ron,

I'm sure you made the best deal for you. I was just blabbing about the "0% deals" aren't as good as most folks would think.

Common Error in peoples thinking: What will this cost me now? How much per month? The answers to thoses two questions will often times close a deal.

The question should be: What is the best way for me to afford this vehicle now and down the road? The answer is unique for everyone.

I prefer leasing vehicle rather than buying them. That's me. I like driving new cars to about 30-36k miles. I don't worry about maintenance. In the past when I wanted to trade, I was up-side down in my loan because, like most folks, I would put $0-1000k down and low monthly payments. Then I could trade but I'd have to roll alot of negative equity into the next vehicle and use my good credit to finance the next outragous amount. I hadn't paid for a single car, yet I hear people say, "at least you own it." I didn't know my name was on the board at the bank.

Leasing provides me a way to keep my payments low, and yes my insurance is a little higher, but at the end of 36 mo. I turn in the keys and pick out my next ride. If I'm over on my miles, It's ok, no where near the amount I was upside down at the same time when I was buying.

Differant strokes for differant folks. Dealers can often times use leases to un burry people, but in a way that is way more harmful to there finances, and some dealers have just made alot of people hate leases. Again, this is a subject that needs to be explorered before trying to obtain a lease from a dealer you don't know.

Your banker can explain the ups and downs of leasing vs buying, but you have to take the initiative. Most folks who get hurt in leases only see the two previous asked questions and didn't know anything about leases until they signed the papers.....Bad move.

John-

[GyroRon]

John I am looking a little truck and wanted to know if you had a service that checks the VIN number to make sure the car isn't stolen, that the miles are right, and it hasn't been in a bad accident.

Here is the number 2cnbe18uxn6939755

[Chuck Irby]

Ron,

Have I got a beater for you!!!!

It's a 95 Geo 2 door, 4 cylinder, automatic with only 40 or 50 thousand actual miles (I'd have to look). I have only driven it a few times since I hit a dear with it 3 to 4 years ago. It runs out great. It is sitting out behind my barn. If you're interested, I would let you have it for $2,000

[GyroRon]

Hit by a deer? Sounds like it might be slightly dented!
The little truck I am looking at is a Geo Tracker - I always wanted one of those - and has 58 thousand original miles - need to make sure it is true miles - Price.... 1500$ and it doesn't have a dent or scratch anywhere on it. It has two or three small door dings and a few interior trim pieces are loose and the engine looks like it could use a new valve cover and oil pan gasket, but otherwise it is pretty nice.

I also would like to find a old Geo Metro with the three cylinder engine to chop up and get the engine for a airplane powerplant.

[Chuck Irby]

Ron, if the miles are right, the Tracker sounds like a good deal. Re my Metro: If it had a 3 cylinder in it, I would have already taken it out for the same purpose.

[Screw]

Alright Ron,

You ain't gonna like it....I recommend Run...........

Problem Found! database for this 1992 Geo Tracker (2CNBE18UXN6939755) found history events that indicate a significant automotive problem. These problems can indicate previous car damage, theft or other significant problems.

History:

1. Abandoned Records found 01/14/2000

2. Odometer problem found On 02/01/1996 52,209 miles reported to DMV. On 01/14/2000 41,031 miles reported to DMV

3. Title exeeds mechanical limits on 01/10/2002

4. Lien recods found on 10/13/2003 in Florence SC

If you have a fax number I can fax you the full report, but those are the highlights. Run man, Run!!! Unless you wanted to buy it to sell parts.

John-

[Chuck Irby]

John,

It looks like you just saved Ron from getting a POS. Thank you for offering to help us all as you just did Ron. I just sold out my used car business in Arlington, TX five years ago. Like you, I was totally honest in my dealings with both dealers and the public.

The biggest problem with you in that business is that you can't count on dealers, wholesalers, or the public to be honest with you. Be extremely careful whom you trust, especially with your money. I lost a small fortune by trusting the wrong people, I don't know how long you've been in the business, but if I can ever help you, all you have to do is ask. Sincerely, Chuck

[Screw]

Thanks Chuck,

That was extremely kind of you. I too have lost good money to the wrong people with my trusting ways, but I've learned from it. I started selling new autos in 91. Although, I work for a few companies in that timeframe, my favorite product to sell has always been Chrysler. When I left the Big Dealers to start my own, I left a Gold rated Chrysler employee, and always finished every month in the top two....exepct for that one month my wife gave birth to our son, I finished third.

Anyways, I opened up late in 03 and going strong. Found a little nitche with ebay, and as long as I can keep buying them right, I do ok on ebay and homeruns in my backyard.

One of the areas that I feel like money is pouring rather than dripping is the part Ron mentioned the other day about half of the cars you get out of the auction is for sh*t. The problem is....By the time I get the car to me, and find out that it is sh*t, I already have $130-150 into it. On adverage, the cars I'm running back through the auction, I'm iether breaking even, or losing $100-200 on. I can't keep that up.

Solution I implemented today with my buying staff: Me one employee.

1. Show up to auction early and select vehicle based solely on outward and inward appearance. Missing windows, and busted lights are ok.

2. Of the cars that look ok, conduct appraisal type walk around, to include and drivability and thin the herd. At some of these auctions you can't drive the cars, but you can put'em in gear and gas/brakem.

3. Of the cars left, record vin # and via radio (nextel) to third party with computer for vehicle history and black book values. Establish value. The only exceptable problems found would be emmisions.

4. Purchase or walk from vehicles based on bids strickly adhearing to book values. Purchase only 4 at a time.

5. Once the vehicles are purchased, come back the next day and drive the vehicle out of the auction for a road test. If the vehicle doesn't pass test or scares the h*ll out of me, I go back to the aution and leave it to be ran through the next week. If the test drive really goes well, I'll drive it to the lot elliminating the need for transport.

As an added footnote....I have found that most of my sh*t vehicles that I have purchased, are comming from one or two sources (dealers) at the auctions. To further elliminate the chance of buying junk, I will no longer buy anything from iether of the 2 sources. They are illeminated at the appearance round.

John-

[Screw]

BTW Ron,

Rather than spending $1500 on that geo,

I got a 1990 Mazda 929 LE with a broke timing chain I could let you have for $900. Clean title, Vehicle history checks out. Doubt it would cost you $600 to fix. Better car and less than $1500.

John-

Did I mention V-6 with a sun-roof too.

[GyroRon]

Thanks John for the heads up. I had a feeling this thing had a surprise or two. The owner has 3 or 4 Bibles open in various places in his house and says he wants the deal to be a good deal. He told me about the lien which was one of those places you get a cash loan on your car title, but says it is paid off and it signed off as paid on the title. The miles he swears have to be right because he is the second owner and the first owner was his brother in law and he has known this truck since new. He says it has sat around with out being driven.... a lot.

Anyway I am fairly mechanically minded and gave it a very good looking over and it looked like it had to have more miles that is shown, but still looked to be in great shape - except for some oil leaks on the engine. I may try to get him to come down even lower on the price and still buy it. My main concern was it is not stolen, doesn;t have outstanding liens and to see if the miles are right.

I appreciate the help and the Mazda offer. I don't want something that needs work right off the bat and don't want a complex vehicle. Lift the hood on a Mazda 929 and your looking at a zillion hoses wires and stuff. I want a simple vehicle even I can figure out how to reapir when the time comes. I will keep you posted on what I do.

[Screw]

ok Ron,

You do know:

1. That Geo is a turd. If you pay 300 for it, It's still a turd.

2. You will have to do work on it "right off the bat."

3. My offer is way too good to pass on.

4. That Mazda (when running) retails for 3500.00, whole sales around 1500-1800. I'm offering to you because it's broke, you'll have to put about 300 in a mechanic to replace the timing chain, and I don't want you in a turd.

5. I respect you wishes of course, but I know whats right and wrong with my cars. Your man is swearing the miles be right!!! But we both no it isn't so, nor do we know what else he lying about (why abandoned????Was it stolen or hidden from a repo guy???). I know my car will work out great for you, besides...If I aint gonna make no money, I'd rather sell it to a friend.

6. I'm planning to repair it anyways, Just offered it like that to save me some trouble and you some money, but, If you like, I can have it repaired, and put the repair cost on the 9hun (with the receipt of course).....that way she's running when you get it ;D Would you like me to have the car cleaned as well? Say no more.....Did I mention the well maintained tan leather interior?

7. I told you I sell cars for a living didn't I.

Purchasing a beater, is a fine line balancing act between Up front cost, drivebuility cost, and long term mainenance.

Right now the geo is probably more attractive to you because it runs. Your probably thinking if he'll come down to 800-900 or even 500, I'll buy it! The guy is probably so desparate to get ride of it, he probably won't fight much. He can't pawn the title again cause there is at least one more lien on it. Any amount of cash you give him is more than he has now and better than looking at that turd another day. There was more than one title lien...I think three in all...I'll fax you the report on the geo and my mazda. Anyways, the problem is, running that vehicle, will cause damage to the parts that were meant to run, but have been sitting for years. Example: Wheel bearings, any bearings, all internaly lubricated parts in the engine, transmission, and drivetrain. These parts under stress of working after abuse of sitting, will give.

The Mazda has been a runner to my knowledge, had a few owners, miles are right, roof don't leak, and the drivers seat is the only seat with wrinkles, good tires, steering wheel don't squeall and nothing pops....Timing chain is broke. $40-$60 part, lots of labor.

Just giving you the facts...your choice...no pressure here 8)

Peace out-

[GyroRon]

I need you phone number John. Email me asap.

[Chuck Irby]

John, it sounds like you have learned one of the most important things about the car business... You make your money when you buy, not when you sell..... When speculating, you have got to buy them right. I have had many a customer come in and express an interest in a vehicle. If it was a POS, I would tell him up front "You don't want that POS". Then if he still wanted it I would tell him everything that was wrong with it. Being honest will pay off for you.

[GyroRon]

I know I was warned, but I am still going to try to give this Geo a shot in the morning. Thanks to john I know much more about this vehicle than I did this morning. Heck I had already got a cashiers check made out to this guy for the price we settled on of 1500$ - goingto have to cancel that! -, and was ready to meet him in the morning and give it to him.

Now after talking with John on the phone and getting a better handle on what is up with this thing there is a few issues to deal with. One is can I get a clear title in my name from the seller without any liens? The other is the fact that if I buy this thing, I have to live with the assumption it has a zillion miles cause it certainly doesn't have 58,000 like the odometer shows. Three I have to live with the fact that this vehicle will always show a bad title history.

So to clear up problem #1, I am going to have him meet me at the airport tomorrow after my checkride. The Dmv is a block away, and we will go there and if the Dmv will issue me a clear title then that problem is out of the way, If not then the deal is off.

Problem #2 is not a big problem to me. It ran good enough and if it breaks I will just have to fix it. For $1500 or less your just not going to find a car that isn't bound to have problems crop up mechanically sooner or later.

Problem # 3 is also not a big problem to me. I personally don't care much about the vehicles history. It is only a problem if I go to resell it later or trade it in to a dealer. I doubt I would ever try to trade it in so it is just the resale I have to worry about. Well my opinion is 90 percent of the shoppers, for a car or truck in this price point, just care that it runs and doesn't look like a tree fell on it and that is it. I will tell them the miles are unknown and that is was abandoned at some point. But hey.... It sure runs good! But I am not buying this with the intentions of reselling. I just need a cheap car to drive back and forth to the airport to keep from adding so many miles to my Chevy.

Anyway I called the owner tonight after talking to John and he still wants to put a deal together. I now have the selling price down to 800$ - thanks John!!! - and feel I could press him harder and maybe even get it for a hundred or two less. And since the body is in great shape, it runs good, everything works, and it will have a free and clear title, then I feel 7 or 8 hundred bucks is a good deal. I do have to put another 200$ in it right off the bat cause it needs a new soft top, so I will have a true 900- 1000$ in it at this point. So we will see.....

First thing is to make sure I can get the title in my name with no strings attached. If that can't happen then I guess I will have to keep looking....

[Screw]

Obtaining a free and clear title is worth more than the car itself. Good luck to you and glad to help.

John-

[scottessex]

I just hate selling stuff, I like to find good deals as well as the next guy, problem is I have found so many good deals, I now have to sell something. I sold the Dodge conversion van, everything went well, still haven't sold the clean 87 caddy with less than 60kmi. Had a guy come out to look at the Harley and he test drove it and crashed it!!!!!
Yes he is going to buy it. But what a pain it the butt!

Found a good deal on a convertable mustang for the wife. And another mustang GT for my son.

After this round of selling I will still have
2 trucks
3 cars
3 street motorcycles
1 gyrocopter
5 dirtbike and scooters
Still trying to sell the house!!!!!! just dropped the price another $5000.

[Screw]

Hey Scott,

Deals on the current mustang will continue to get sweeter as Ford is gearing up for the new body style.

John

[GyroRon]

I hate fords. but the new Mustang and the new F-150 could possibly convert me.

[Screw]

Not meaning to change the subject Ron, but your post in the wanted section about Jamie's blades tickled me. "Dicker with Sticker." Remindes me of what I would say is a joke, but is common practice to check a salesmans stones.

Most of you know, and if you don't know you'll find out, selling cars for big dealerships is an emotional rollercoaster for the consumer (that's why most people hate it). Most things are done to effect the consumer from an emotuional point of view. Example: Salesman will show you several vehicles; try and figure out which one you like the most and work you "numbers" on that one. When you balk on any of the presented numbers, they'll "Switch" you to the car you don't want (take it away). When you get upset, a "Floor Closer" will come out, and close the deal by giving it back to you at figures everyone can live with. (extremely short version considering 4 hours has passed at this point.)

Since selling cars is a people business and reading peoples emotions, salespeople get bored too, and occasionally screw with people. (Not me, of course...I've just seen it done). After selling cars a while, experianced salespeople know pretty quick wheather they have a car deal or "Mental Masturbation." Everybaody is differant but most people "shop" cars like this:

1. Show me car
2. Get me keys
3. how much

It is a neverending cycle, that usually ends with some lame excuse for not buying. Here are some examples:

1. I need my wife/husband
2. This is the first place I've stopped
3. Waiting of tax returns/insurance settlements/birthdays ect.

#1 is by far the most popular, and other salespeople egg other salepeople to try differant things. Most common responces to #1 by salespeople is:

1. "Let's take it to her/him and see what they think."
2. "take it overnight, yall go to dinner and discuss it. Bring it back tomarrow, and if you like it, we'll work you a deal...You know we won't lose anyones business over price."

By far the funniest responce I've ever heard given to a customer who "needed their wife" was, "Get her down here and we'll dicker!"

John-

[Screw]

Another funny responce to a color objection is:

"Will you take it in the Brown?"

John-

[Screw]

Well, It's been a while:

Went to an auction a yesturday looking for SUV's. Bought a couple, but the one I like the most, I paid the least for and I think is in the best condition.

When you go to an auction, you have to be carefull....There were people all over this 1993 Toyota 4 runner SR5 4x4. Until it made it's way to the final lane where they announced that it has a clear title, but had a Salvage title in the past.

Once the announcement was made, people walked away. I don't understand it, but I hope to benifit from it.

I know what a "Salvage Title" is: Two or More Major Component Parts replaced due to accident or Theft. I have to disclose the information prior to sale in writing. No big Deal. Cars get wrecked and totaled daily in Atlanta.

The trick is having a new title issued to it: The vehicle has had to have been completely rebuild and ultimateley inspected for safety and operation prior to being issued a new title in the State of Georgia. Where others run and hide, I get a great vehicle at a steal of a deal.

1993 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4x4. Leather, Sunroof, powered up, "Honey Dripping Cream Puff with new paint in the wrapper!" $3100

Retail-$7500....Rough condition (which it aint) $5k.

To my customers......1500-2000k down, $250-$300 per month or $63-$75 a week.

Proud of this one....Everyone want a Yota!

John-

[Echo]

Do you guys know where the new Pontiac is coming from?
This may suprise a few........ Australia.General Motors Holden build a 2 door car named Monaro, 5.7ltre,6 speed Aus made manual box. It is rebadged & sent to North America. Check out www.hsv.com.au
Eric

[Screw]

That is news.

John-

[Screw]

Found a Cute "Retail Red" Porsche 914 with some body damage for cheap....Don't know about "GyroRon Cheap," but cheap nevertheless. I drove it, and loved it. I might have to buy it just to add some color to the lot, or restore for fun.

Maybe replace the Vw engine on my gyro with that Porsche Engine 8) Might have to get Brent Brown to help out with the installation.

John-

[GyroRon]

The Pontiac GTO is what Echo is talking about. It is a Holden over there in his neck of the woods. Those guys have a lot of cool cars and little Trucks.

The 914 John your looking at has a 100 percent pure VW engine in it. Vw made the whole car for Porsche. It would be a larger and more powerful engine than you got on the gyro though......

[Echo]

My new Holden ute for towing gyros. I was looking at pics elsewhere with the snow..... it is currently 114 deg here in Parkes. I went flying this morning ,7.30am , & it was even hot at 1500'.
Eric

[Echo]

Wrong pic, that one is my mates(5.7 ltr V8 SS ).
This one is mine.

[Screw]

I want one.

John-

[PW_Plack]

"Take it home overnight..."

John,

I laughed a few posts back when you talked about that car dealer tactic! In 1992, I had looked at all the small pickups, wanted something new but really inexpensive, and decided I wanted either the Isuzu or the Mazda (last year before it became a re-badged Ranger.) I had looked at Isuzus, and went to the Mazda dealer. They were total jerks, and wouldn't tell me the price on the truck, only what the payments would be.

I had decided to walk out, but just before I did, the salesman said, "You know, I don't think you're convinced yet that you really want the vehicle. Here are the keys...why don't you take it home for the weekend?"

I took the truck, and drove it right back to the Isuzu dealer. They asked if I was trading it in, and I told them their competitor had just loaned it to me for the weekend. They almost tripped over each other to deal. I ended up buying the Isuzu, with air conditioning, for $8300, $1700 below sticker.

[GyroRon]

My first new car - I think I was about 20 or 21 - was a brand new 1993 Toyota truck. It was a basic bare bones model that I ordered with carpeting and cloth seat, A/C, power steering, a rear bumper and a right side mirror. It didn't have much else not even a radio. The Sticker was aorund 12 grand even and I had my dad there to help me - I needed a co signer - and he got the price down to 9400$ out the door. That was a heck of a deal I was later told by the salesman who I became friends with a few years later. I guess I learned to wheel and deal from Dad...... works out pretty good though.

[Screw]

Just thinking about the "Car Business" tickles me. If you've never seen the movie "Sucker," I highly recommend it. It is a comedy, and some stuff in there isn't accurate, but it sure is close!

John-