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Brian Jackson
02-27-2005, 01:22 PM
Hi Folks.

Please pardon me because this will probably be a big question, but I’ll be as concise as possible. Here goes:

Last night I finished the preliminary drilling of my GyroBee Mast. It is a redundant mast with two 1x2 tubes, typical of many gyros. To ensure all holes were thru-drilled to precisely line up, I inserted zero-tolerance dowel rods through all existing thru-holes and clamped both tubes together. I took every conceivable precaution before and during drilling. I spent days doing “dry runs” just to make sure nothing was left to chance.

So last night I thru-pinned and clamped the cluster plate holes, side-clamped and compression-clamped the rotorhead area and, after triple-checking every facet, proceeded to drill the finest 16 holes of my life (4 holes X 4 walls.) The results were pure poetry. Tolerance pins could be inserted and removed with light, smooth, uniform force.

The next morning I double-checked the uniformity of the 2 mast halves and noticed something alarming… when one end was pinned the other end was a thou or two off and the opposing pins could not be passed, and vice versa.

Question 1: With such tight tolerances, does thermal expansion come into play? .002” over six feet seems like it would.

Question 2: Could the bending moments of a toleranced redundant tube impose excessive loads? (See Attached Image). Since the bolt is so much stronger than the aluminum surrounding it, would it not make sense that cyclic fatigue is being introduced in a no-tolerance situation?

Lastly, I’m not aware of any failures due to this directly. But is it not conceivable that some mast breaks could have been attributed to weakening of material by metal fatigue? Redundant mast, crystallized metallurgy via fatigue and “no room” tolerances, the brittle nature of metals under those loads, the propagation of cracks under those loads, and a sudden load from any direction.

I’m not an aeronautical engineer, just some guy building a gyro myself. I’m not an idiot though.

Brian Jackson
02-27-2005, 01:35 PM
Sorry, I thought I'd attached the image. It's an over-dramatization.

Harry_S.
02-27-2005, 02:17 PM
Hi Brian:

I'm no engineer, metalurgist or whatever...but I have built I think, 7 gyros. Other than the ones I stuffed up...they're still flyin'. I was very critical with holes...I reamed almost all to size.

I'm amazed at the critical detail your performing on your gyro. It is your project and I'm not one to criticize it. That is going to be...if possible...the best amateur built gyro in the world,; seriously, I mean that. IMHO Brian...you're being overly critical on non-critical items. I hope you take this the right way?!

A late friend of mine...a machine shop Supt....I saw him scrap the whole right wing of a Mustang Two he was building because he made an error on two holes at the attach point with the carry thru spar. All he had to do was go oversize on the hole and bolt...no problem but...being a dedicated machinist, it's got to be perfect. He couldn't see replacing the attaching spar, he had to do it perfect. I admired that man and his integrity.

I admire your approach towards everything you attempt, Brian.


Cheers :)

StanFoster
02-27-2005, 02:33 PM
Brian: I was wanting to post exactly what Harry so eliquently stated. I didnt because I am not fluent enough to correctly say it without ruffling feathers.

I would like to say that you can be real tight on all your building tolerances and have the best ship in the world...ok? Its all fine to have a perfect ship...but I feel there is a balance between practicallity and theoritical.

More important is when you start flying this beauty you are creating. There are so many variables that you have to be relaxed so you can adapt to....in other words....you have to fly practically instead of theoritically.

I hope my addition here is taken correctly....I know it could be said simpler and cleaner...but I dont know how.

Anyway..just keep on building that beauty to those tolerances,,,,,just so you realize that flying wont be as scripted. You just have to adapt to looser real conditions. Then.....your beautiful machine you are creating will stay that way. Happy building and flying Brian...see you at Bensen days,

Stan

Harry_S.
02-27-2005, 02:41 PM
Thank you Stan...well said.


Did you fly today?


Cheers :)

GyroRon
02-27-2005, 02:47 PM
I did. Not in a gyro though..... Flew in the Skybolt today, wore my butt out doing aerobatics!

these pics are all from before, but same plane. In the 2nd pic you can see we are inverted! :D

StanFoster
02-27-2005, 03:02 PM
Harry: I got my gyro back in the hanger...started her up...and gave her a good ground check. The humidity was ripe for icing...I know when to stay down. I will be up soon. I have to get my medical done tomorrow.

Ron......way too cool of pictures. You are one flying dude....


Stan

Brian Jackson
02-27-2005, 03:19 PM
Thank you all for the feedback. Being as new to this as I am I have no right to second-guess anyone. It just seemed logical that by enlarging the holes of the webbing slightly we could elimanate the shearing forces without adversely affecting the clamping force of the bolts. But again I'm still learning, so thanks for the feedback.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

automan1223
02-28-2005, 01:20 PM
you said
"The next morning I double-checked the uniformity of the 2 mast halves and noticed something alarming… when one end was pinned the other end was a thou or two off and the opposing pins could not be passed, and vice versa."

as long as the masts go together and were drilled as a matched pair then you should have not problem. the best milling machine has an error built into it, no tube, round, sq, or rect is a perfect shape. it is off by a LOT. As per bensen construction manual if you take his lessons to heart you will soon find out that the BOLTS you are working with are a sloppy second to the "perfect" ground dowels you used to pin your masts per reference.

just mark them and keep the ends and faces the way they were when you drilled them.

The head of the bolt, the shank is slightly thicker and will not always slide thru like your dowel, right down to the head. Either ream the hole, or sand the bolt. But either way you are making us CRAZY ! just dont do such sloppy work that you use a regular wood bit to drill the hole for your aircraft bolts. You should be fine. Do not make your first machine such a show piece that you will shoot yourself if you wack it up during its test flights. Nobody ever scratches an old tired paint job on an old wreck of a car. Get my point ?


Jonathan

Tom Evans
02-28-2005, 04:53 PM
Brian, Aluminum does funny things. A part that was in tolerance yesterday may not be in tolerance today or tomorrow. You might have had the one mast toward the warm side of the room, been hoding it too long in your hand or whatever. It will be fine.
Tom Evans

Doug Riley
03-05-2005, 10:15 AM
Brian, if a Bensen-style gyro were not so over-designed, you might have a legitimate worry. However, when you start looking at the numbers, you realize that you probably could make the mast out of a couple 2x4's and stove bolts and never break it in normal use.

Examples: a single AN-4 bolt loaded in double shear has a breaking load of about 4000 lb.

A redundant mast has a cross-sectional area (accounting for the loss occasioned by two 1/4" holes) of 1 square inch. 6061-T6 has an ultimate tensile wtrength of about 40,000 psi. That's a lot of G's or, to put it more realistically, that's a huge amount of reserve strength to allow for fatigue and workmanship issues in your 500 lb. gyro.