Bee Build Progress

[Brian Jackson]

Hi all.

Just thought I'd share the latest on QB's "incarnation." The photo is of her tail wheel plate attachment holes thru the tailboom. What the photo doesn't show is how I support the other end of this long tube.

I've made great use of my camera tripod, since I can adjust the height. The bed of my drill press is not dead-nuts square with the bit, so I adjust the height of the tripod until the tube is precisely perpendicular. I check it against a small 2" section of scrap square tube stock that I lay on top of the tube and press against the shank of the drill bit. When I can see no light between the bit and the scrap section, I know the tripod is at the right height, and the tube is perpendicular & ready for drilling.

In addition, I have a 2" section of angle stock that I use to support the "drilling end" of the tube. I lay it on the bed of the drill press with the bottom part of the "L" supporting and elevating the tube. This serves 2 functions. First, it negates any irregularities of the bed from the perpendicularity setup by elevating the tube. Secondly it provides a near-frictionless way to let the tube position/center itself with the bit. That's why I spend a great deal of time creating perfectly centered conical punches/divots. The bit will naturally want to find the center, but large tubes with great mass and friction may not be so apt to move at the authority of the bit. So far, using this method has produced CNC-like results.

You'll note a toothbrush in the photo. Through trial & error experimentation, I've found it to be an indispensable tool. I use it to brush the flakes and shavings out of the drill bit threads before every operation. I also brush the underside of the bit's tip to ensure there's no debris that could potentially congest or hinder its cutting efficiency. A spinning flake at the tip seriously hinders drilling by distancing the cutting edges from the hole walls.

Lastly, I received a phone call today from a very good friend whom is also a gyro builder and member of this forum. He inquired about the blue dye I use when scribing centermarks. It's made by a company called DYKEM and is called "Steel Blue Layout Fluid." It's a semi-thin, brush-on coating that dries in 5 minutes. The beauty of using this dye is that, "obviously", the scribe marks are obvious :D . But another plus is that you don't have to scratch into the aluminum itself, which could potentially create a weak spot or fracture line. Just scribe through the dye with light pressure and the bare metal is exposed, and shows up nicely. However I do like to add a little more pressure at the exact center crossing; material to be removed anyway. That gives me a "feel spot" to center the punch on.

Man, I really didn't intend to write this much about such a simple thing, but there ya go.

Thanks for letting me share.
Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

[Tom Evans]

Brian - Keep it up, it is always great reading, even though I have drilled a lot of holes over the years...

[Brian Jackson]

Brian - Keep it up, it is always great reading, even though I have drilled a lot of holes over the years...
Tom,
Thanks. I'm certainly no "know-it-all", just learning as I go and sharing my findings. If you could interject some wisdom and drilling instruction, I and many others reading would be very grateful. With the lack of "How-To" data, forums as this become valuable.

[Brian Jackson]

Wish me luck... Tonight I start the drilling for the Mast. Chances are I'll sleep on it and see how I feel tomorrow. It's a redundant mast, made of 2 1X2's. I'm not sure if I should drill straight through both tubes, or transfer-punch from opposite directions. All I know is that if I'm off by a couple thousandths in either direction from any hole, the bolt stresses will be focused at the point of greatest misalignment. That's true with any bolted structure, but probably reason enough to unitize the 2 tubes and thru-drill through all 4 thicknesses. Obviously maintaining squareness during drilling is paramount... That's what frightens me most. Any change in square and I score the interior walls with the drill bit.

[bones]

Ok shoot me down here if every one thinks i'm too hard here, but if you spend so much time on these fancy drawings, no wonder it takes so long to build your gyro, mate just go and make it and fly it, so much talk about stress points and the like, sh1t mine gets a hammering nearly everytime i fly and its still together, and i fly a sh1t load more hours than i think you would, dont get me wrong here i admire the work manship that people put into there ships, but there has to be a limit, a fair question, how many hours would you expect to fly in a year? to give an idea i spent about 65 hrs last year just to get to some of the jobs that i done, then on top of that there was the mustering time, and if something gets abit bent just rip it out measure it up make a new one and wack it back in job done...:)

[Brent_Brown]

Drill one 1x2 in one pass with a 3/16 bit. then put the other one under it transfer the holes to it. Before I drill to 1/4 I put the plate under it and drill it to 3/16. flip it over and do the other plate. bolt it all up with junk 3/16 remove one bolt at a time and drill it to 1/4. I use a step bit to bring the 3/16 hole to 1/4 in the top plate, then use a 1/4 to blow through it all. the last pass can be done with a hand drill. It takes time but you know it will fit when you done. Call me if you want. 910- 892- 4743

[Brian Jackson]

Ok shoot me down here if every one thinks i'm too hard here, but if you spend so much time on these fancy drawings, no wonder it takes so long to build your gyro, mate just go and make it and fly it, so much talk about stress points and the like, sh1t mine gets a hammering nearly everytime i fly and its still together, and i fly a sh1t load more hours than i think you would, dont get me wrong here i admire the work manship that people put into there ships, but there has to be a limit, a fair question, how many hours would you expect to fly in a year? to give an idea i spent about 65 hrs last year just to get to some of the jobs that i done, then on top of that there was the mustering time, and if something gets abit bent just rip it out measure it up make a new one and wack it back in job done...:)
Hi Mark.
You're right... I probably sweat the details way more than I need to. Guess I just get a little nervous about doing everything right. The CAD model has helped a lot though, which I refer to as I'm building. With any luck I should have the lion's share of the airframe bolted together by the end of the month.

Thanks,
Brian

[Brian Jackson]

Done!

Man am I glad I waited a day before drilling the mast. I was ready to drill last night but held off because I wanted to think about all the steps in the procedure. The added complication is that it's a redundant mast in lieu of a single-tube one.

My worst fear was scoring an interior wall, thereby ruining the entire tube. So over the past 48 hours I designed a procedure I was comfortable with. Several hours were spent truing up the drill press bed.

I decided to drill the cluster plate area of the mast tubes in a 4-part operation, starting with the outside surface of the left side. Using blue layout dye I scribed the centermarks with a micrometer. I then dropped lubricating oil through the holes onto the interior surface. The smooth shank of the centering bit allowed me to use the hole I'd just drilled as a guide to drill through the opposite side of the tube.

Once drilled and checked, I used a screw-clamp to unitize both tubes after placing the non-drilled tube under the first one. It put equal pressure on their edges which had a centering effect.

From there I used the "drilled" tube as a centering jig to place the pilot holes in the other tube. I then un-clamped and removed the left mast tube, and drilled the inner side of the right mast tube based on the pilot hole centers. Once those were drilled I thru-drilled the tube.

The attached image shows the precise alignment. Though probably not entirely necessary, I was very pleased with the results.

Thanks,
Brian Jackson

[Brian Jackson]

By the way, the blue paint inside the top tube came from the manufacturer.

[RotoTony]

Brian I always learn from your posts. Keep it up!
Thanks Tony

[Brian Jackson]

Brian I always learn from your posts. Keep it up!
Thanks Tony
Tony,
Thanks, but I'm just learning too. The real credit goes to the PRA folks.

Best wishes,
Brian Jackson

[Brent_Brown]

That looks good, keep going.

[StanFoster]

Brian: Years ago when I was hand building Kentucky longrifles from scratch..there was one bolt that had to go through the barrel tang...through the narrow wrist portion of the gunstock and out throught the trigger plate.

This was a 10-32 bolt and it had to come out perfect. These rifles are all complex variable curves and there simply was only one way to jig it up so the drill would start at the top and come precisely out the bottom exactly centered. This technique could be utilized in drilling your mast.

I would drill a small hole exactly centered in the upper barrel tang...and also in the lower trigger plate. I knew that the bolt had to start through this top hole and had to come out at the bottom hole.

I would set up my drill press with an indexing block which I would run the stroke on the drill press and drill this index block with a small bit. Through this smaller than desired hole...I would place another drill bit in this index block so that it would automatically index the exiting point for my drilling operation. This index block by the way is clamped in place.

Then...the gunstock would be put in place..with this indexing drill bit aligning my jigs...setting me up for the main drilling.

The drill bit would pass through the exact starting hole which was already drilled in the top barrel tang...and then simply go on through the gunstock. It would automatically exit the bottom hole perfectly as it was in perfect alignment. All that had to be done was increase the drill size to the desired hole size..and one final ream out and presto...an exactly started and terminated hole clear through the gunstock. This works everytime as you control the exact starting and exiting points...and then just jig up and drill between.

Stan

[Tom Evans]

Brian:

Some folks approach a job different than others - A friend of mine can do a great job in the worst working conditions imaginable. I can't. A clean well lit shop and methods such as you discribe are the key to a superior job for yours truly. I know you are not an experienced builder, but none the less, you are setting a standard for those that want the satisfaction of producing a result that meets their expectations and helping many of us that enjoy the build as well as the flying. My vote is to keep it up.

Tom Evans

[PW_Plack]

Hey, Bones...

Your comments make me chuckle! I imagine the disdain of a guy who uses dogs to herd livestock everyday, when he watches all the preening and prissing at the Westminster Dog Show! :eek:

Remember, Mark, it's winter up here, and we recreational fliers have too much time to contemplate aesthetics.

Brian, you're proving yourself a true gyroplane addict. Not every pilot thinks a gyroplane could ever be a thing of beauty, no matter how hard the builder tries!

[Doug Riley]

Brian: Are you creating small pilot holes before finishing with the full diameter bit? Small bits around .060 -.080 pick up punch marks very well. A larger bit is more apt to wander once it has eaten the punch mark away.

After some years of doing this, I now drill 2x2's and double 1x2's all in one pass from one side. If the hole edge distance is selected to allow for the typical variations on wall thickness, plus a little, wall scoring shouldn't be a concern. Nevertheless, I look down the tube at the bit's progress while drilling to make sure. Some tubing isn't perfectly square (more of a parallelogram) so it does pay to watch.

After drilling through the nearest wall of a tube, use extra-light pressure to start the hole on the inside of the next wall. This is where the bit will bend and wander if significant pressure is applied. I use a few light momentary touches of the bit to get a divot started before adding pressure.

BTW, blue layout dye can also be bought in spray cans.

[Brian Jackson]

Brian: Are you creating small pilot holes before finishing with the full diameter bit? Small bits around .060 -.080 pick up punch marks very well. A larger bit is more apt to wander once it has eaten the punch mark away.

After some years of doing this, I now drill 2x2's and double 1x2's all in one pass from one side. If the hole edge distance is selected to allow for the typical variations on wall thickness, plus a little, wall scoring shouldn't be a concern. Nevertheless, I look down the tube at the bit's progress while drilling to make sure. Some tubing isn't perfectly square (more of a parallelogram) so it does pay to watch.

After drilling through the nearest wall of a tube, use extra-light pressure to start the hole on the inside of the next wall. This is where the bit will bend and wander if significant pressure is applied. I use a few light momentary touches of the bit to get a divot started before adding pressure.

BTW, blue layout dye can also be bought in spray cans.
Thanks, Doug,
The "centering bits" I've been using for much of the angle stock are working extremely well on the tube, for all of the reasons you mentioned in your post. They have a tiny politing point with a length of smooth shank that extends down well past the finished diameter shank. So once the tiny pilot portion is engaged into the material the bit stays put exactly on target. I do however back the bit out once I've got a good pilot hole with some vertical wall to it to add lubricating oil.

I hear ya about the slight geometric inaccuracies regarding so-called "square tube," which are usually tight-tolerance parallelograms. Most things are (my house is a prime example of no-tolerance parallelograms :D ). Wall thicknesses can vary too because the inside portion of the extrusion die is a separate piece from the outer, so I mic the wall to figure the exact inset distance of the hole.

I've spent a great deal of time practicing this on scrap material to make sure things go smoothly, micing the holes from every diametral direction to ensure perfect roundness, and every nearby edge to check precise location. I'm leaving nothing to guesswork or eyeballing. Amazingly, even under high magnification the holes are true and mirror-smooth. That being the case, would reaming have been better if both methods produce these results?

With the ongoing help of knowledgeable builders like yourself, Scott Sessex and a great number of others here, I'm learning, practicing and experimenting every day with the hopes of getting better at this truly unique and enjoyable artform... Better than oil painting; we get to fly our works :)

With great admiration,
Brian Jackson

[Doug Riley]

Brian, Bensen recommended reaming to nominal minus a couple thou'. That's in line with the typical AN bolt's actual shank diameter, EXCEPT that the bolt shank is often full nominal (or more) right above the threads. That's the spot where the thread-rolling process has "squozen" the metal out a bit. Especially on 3/16 bolts, often a full 3/16 hole will be an interference fit at just this point on the bolt. Forcing the bolts in past an interference fit will scrape the plating off them.

I have never bothered with reaming, based on advice early on from Ron Menzie. Ron has so many workmanship trophies by now (after 35-plus years) that he probably needs a separate house for them.

It IS possible to compulsively obsess excessively.

[Brian Jackson]

It IS possible to compulsively obsess excessively.
Doug, I love that quote! And I'm guilty as charged... just overly paranoid I suppose since this is my first gyro and trying to maintain a critical eye. The devil's in the details as they say (whomever "they" are :) ).

Update: Following Mr. Taggart's direction I purchased some temporary "hardware store" fasteners and QB bolted together flawlessly. What a thrill it is to finally see her taking shape! The transfer punching worked great, and everything fits together like a Swiss watch. The redundant mast continuity was my biggest concern, and I'm happy to report it's now unitized, and every thru-hole is true, square and concentric. I didn't have the luxury of a machinist's square when truing up the bed of my press, so I used a plastic CD case on it's side (hey, ya do the best you can with what you have to work with). The reason I was originally having difficulty getting the dowel pins passed at both ends was due to minute sagging because of how the tubes were supported. When laid flat the pins pass smoothly through both tubes with only a tiny amount of friction. It's nerd-poetry! I also purchased a machinist's square 2 days ago to check the drilling squareness and it's within a tiny fraction of a degree. Needless to say I'm elated.

I also purchased a disc sander. Since the inside corner of T6 angle stock is radiused approx. 1/10" for strength, I wanted to fillet the tangent edges of the angle-stock parts that nested inside them, for example the tank mount diagonals and crossmembers. The attached photo shows one such radiused union for the right rudder pedal arch brace. Sorry for the crappy photo; I was in a hurry. BTW, the blue stuff is layout dye. I just haven't cleaned that off the parts yet.

Anyway, I'll try not to be so anal about esoteric details in the future, as many have vocalized, and for good reason. It's just that the questions I raise here sometimes prompt responses that get me thinking in areas I hadn't considered before. I'm sure that's a good thing where aircraft are concerned. And though I'm still quite ignorant of many aviation disciplines, I'm incredibly thankful for every nugget of wisdom I'm offered by the great folks on this forum.

Thanks,
Brian Jackson

[Brian Jackson]

Tonight I started fabrication of a pair of temporary cluster plates from 1/8" T6 AL. The final plates will be 1/8" Stainless Steel as per Mr. Taggart's documentation. But I've gone as far as one can possibly go in construction without having these plates to unitize the airframe. There are many holes that simply can't be drilled with any certainty unless it's assembled.

Since I had just enough extra T6 plate stock I decided to cut and file the 2" X 7" cluster plates for the purposes of:
1. Test-fitting the airframe
2. Aligning the structure for precise transfer punching of remaining parts
3. Dry-run practice... These are very critical parts of the airframe.

The "dry-run" part is interesting because it's a logic puzzle of sorts. I drilled the tubing at the cluster plate area first because I wanted to maintain the correct bit clearance from the inside walls, which can fluctuate with wall thickness variations. So transfer-punching onto the cluster plates through the tube holes made more sense. But to ensure the alignment doesn't slip I'm only punching one upper-corner hole, then drilling and fastening it. Once fastened and the opposite corner clamped, I'll then transfer-punch the remaining holes. That first fastener will serve as an anchor point.

I'll share some photos as I go. Since clearances are so tight I just wanted to really think this through before making a move. Man it's sounding like a Chess game :D

More later,
Brian

[B8MFlorida]

Could 1/4" T6 aluminum cluster plates be substituted instead of 1/8" Stainless Steel?
John
B8M
Gyrobee

[scottessex]

Remember, when you drill stainless, the drill bit must turn slower, alot slower, to cut. Otherwise you will dull the bit and it will heat up.

[RotoTony]

StarBee uses 3/16 T6 for there cluster plates. Although I made mine out of 1/8 SS I wonder how much lighter the T6 plates would be.
Tony

[Brent_Brown]

After 5 drill bits I know that now.


Speed is time, time is speed.

[Brian Jackson]

Thanks for the heads-up on the stainless drilling speed, Scott.

John, as Tony mentioned, StarBee has the option of using 3/16" T6, which may be a tad lighter than the SS. The reason I'm sticking with the 1/8" stainless is that a thicker material will spread out the distance between the tank mount diagonals (shown in picture), since they attach flush with the outside surfaces of the cluster plates. To make up for this, you would need to add 1/16" spacer washers where each diagonal bolts to the underside of the tank mount. Not a huge deal, but I'd prefer to have that area nest up flush.

Brian

[B8MFlorida]

Brian-
That's exactly what I wanted to know. Don't think it will be a big deal to work around that. Great drawing..colors jump right out of my monitor.details are perfect........It's almost as its alive! Got to see Rick Martins Gyrobee upclose and in flight yesterday and must say he did one great job... really inspired me to get my project moving along.

[Brian Jackson]

Brian-
That's exactly what I wanted to know. Don't think it will be a big deal to work around that. Great drawing..colors jump right out of my monitor.details are perfect........It's almost as its alive! Got to see Rick Martins Gyrobee upclose and in flight yesterday and must say he did one great job... really inspired me to get my project moving along.
Thanks, John. I, too, would love to see Ricks gyro in person. There's photos of it in the StarBee Gallery and it looks very nice.

Brian

[REDHORSE556CES]

I've looked at a cross-slide vise for the drill press table. One with the capacity for our purposes can be had for $65 to $100.

[Jazzenjohn]

My advise for drilling stainless is drill at a speed where you can see the flutes ie. superslow with heavy pressure and oil. Use a sharp drill bit. You don't really need cobalt or carbide, HSS works fine if it's sharp but it'll dull fast if you're speeds are too high. If you're having trouble slow the speed down and push harder.

[Doug Riley]

You don't need to use stainless, BTW. 4130 sheet is excellent for this purpose, and it won't wreck your drill bits. It's actually less likely to react chemically with aluminum than stainless. You should paint or powder-coat the plates even if you use stainless, to reduce the chance of galvanic corrosion of the aluminum.

Bensen specified the same procedure that Brian is using: locate the holes in the tubes first, the transfer to the plates. This eliminates the errors associated with the loose dimensional tolerances typical of extruded tubing.

[gyropilot]

A lot of the parts on my Sport Copter are laser drilled. The alignment and fit/finish is spectacular. Maybe it could save you some grief?I bought a laser pointer pen on eBay, chucked it up in my milling machine, and tried to drill holes with it. For some odd reason it doesn't work!

I can't figure out what's wrong. I even put new AAA batteries in it.

John L.

[B8MFlorida]

Doug-
Approximately what thickness of 4130 would be needed to substitute for the 1/8" SS plate?

[ToddP]

I bought a laser pointer pen on eBay, chucked it up in my milling machine, and tried to drill holes with it. For some odd reason it doesn't work!

I can't figure out what's wrong. I even put new AAA batteries in it.

John L.

More Power John...try a 9 volt battery :)

[Brian Jackson]

Doug,
Wow, that's good to know I was on the right track with Bensen's hole-transfer procedure. Had I known earlier it would have saved me a little head-scratching time :D

Charlie,
For what it's worth from a first-time builder still learning, I've had better results drilling by "feel" thus far than by using clamps and sliding-bed vices on the drill press. I've practiced with both methods before beginning the airframe. What has worked best for me (and only speaking for myself) is using a very good calliper micrometer, layout dye, magnifying glass, and spending a little time making excellent punches. I did a pictorial write-up of this on the forum. When using Centering Bits (with the pilot built-in, per Scott Sessex's recommendation) the parts will self-center to the bit. You can feel them align with the punched divot. If the parts are clamped down then they're not able to self-center if you're off by just a little with respect to their location to the bit.

Again, every builder will discover what method works best for them, and with their unique tool/shop setup. I'm just conveying the technique that's producing CNC-like results in my particular case.

Thanks a bunch guys!

Brian Jackson

[Brian Jackson]

I bought a laser pointer pen on eBay, chucked it up in my milling machine, and tried to drill holes with it. For some odd reason it doesn't work!

I can't figure out what's wrong. I even put new AAA batteries in it.

John L.
John,
Try reducing the drill speed. When the laser pointer spins too fast the photons get dizzy on their way down to the material. Remember that laser light is also called "coherent" light. When they're dizzy they become "incoherent" and forget what their job is by the time they reach the drilling surface.

[PW_Plack]

John, slowly, slowly, and lots of oil. Try 3-in-1, I've heard it described as "a light oil." Obviously the best choice for photonic drilling.

Brian, I can clamp parts, and my bits still self-center, because of the slop in the bearings on my 10-year-old $99 Delta drill press!

[Brian Jackson]

I've heard it described as "a light oil."
A "light" oil. Good catch, Paul! :D

Brian, I can clamp parts, and my bits still self-center, because of the slop in the bearings on my 10-year-old $99 Delta drill press!
Sweet! And here I was saving up for a $400 press at one time, then feeling lucky to get great holes on my $59 Chinese model. :) Guess my wife was right when she said it ain't whatcha got but how you u ... hey, wait a minute...

[Doug Riley]

1/8" 4130 can substituted for 1/8" SS.

[gyromike]

Brian,

Another way to do it, or actually to add an additional step, is to use a drill press clamp to hold the piece frimly to the table after you self-center it.

I normally align the centering bit with the punch mark, and then hold the piece flat on the table with a little pressure from the bit and swing the clamp over and lock it down. That way if the part can't start spinning on you.

I whacked my thumb with a piece of flat bar once, and decided I didn't enjoy it very much! :rolleyes:

They aren't very expensive either.
http://www.ptreeusa.com/Peach%20Graphics/drillpress_clamps.jpg

http://www.ptreeusa.com/drillpressacc.html

[Brian Jackson]

Just a brief update on where QB is at. Last night I assembled the airframe, minus the gear, and she fit together beautifully! Still have a couple of transfer-holes to drill for mounting the seat brace diagonals; the airframe had to be partially assembled before I could get their exact placement, so they're just clamped at the mast point for now.

I'm so thrilled! It's lookin' like a gyro! Of course it also looks a lot bigger now that it's occupying our entire living room. That just thrills my wife to no end...

I'll share some photos this afternoon.

Cheers,
Brian Jackson

[B8MFlorida]

I just bought a "Speed controller" for my little new 10" Delta Band Saw to adjust the speed. Plan on using it with my little ol' craftsman drill press too!

[Brian Jackson]

Cool beans, John! A band saw would have been nice, but mine was stolen some time ago. So I had to cut everything with a hacksaw and a file, then later I trued up the parts with an old table saw I restored. WAY too much work!

Are you currently a pilot or builder? It didn't say in your Bio. Are you building a Bensen or a Bee?

Cheers,
Brian Jackson

[B8MFlorida]

Brian-
I had $350.00 of t6 aluminum sheets stolen by the movers. This was the thick good stuff I was going to use to build my Sonex(whoops I forgot I'm on a Gyro forum) Anyhow that was the last and only aviation item I ever had stolen.
To get back to your question, I always have 2 or 3 projects going at once. Fixed wing(experimental and ultralights) and Gyros.
I have a B8M and I'm building a Bee. Slowly accumulating parts and material for it. The Bee is something I squeeze in when I'm not working or building my fix wings.
My next tool on my wish list is a "compound miter saw" I use a Dewalt at work and I'm getting attached to it, will come in handy for those nice crisp angle cuts on aluminum angle stock. Researching now on the best blade to use.
Been following your progress closely.
John
Naples Florida
PS: (a shameless plug) don't forget Bensen Days next week!