Do Carter Struts Reduce Roll-0vers?

[Heather Poe]

Would "dampened" Carter-style landing gear reduce or eliminate either pilot induced lateral oscillation and/or roll-over incidents? Will Crisp reports for the Monarch: "the G-Force Landing Gear was able to absorb 1,200 feet-per-minute landing impacts with a 3000 lb gross weight with no damage".

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/sh...ighlight=carter

How well does this type of landing gear work when the landing touches down on only one wheel? I would appreciate hearing from anyone with experience with this type of landing gear design.

[Heron]

I think the most capable to answer that question is Matt Pearson.
Heron

[MattPearson]

I would email the Carter Aviation folks for some info on their design. They have incorporated thier strut into a Monarch they bought from New Horizons Components. It looks nothing like the way Larry had it incorporated into the G-force landing gear. I have seen it with my own eyes and all I can say is I would not fly it as configured.
Now if you want to talk about The Monarch with the G-force landing gear, I would highly recommend that gear to a new pilot. Chris Wilson will vouch for that.
The reality is, with decent training and practice as with any aircraft, the issues you raise will become non-issues. Now if you are planning on buying and self-teaching...well lets not go there. I don't see how any gyro can be immune to bad technique.

[Chopper Reid]

Well said Matt, good training and practice should keep you right away from lateral oscillations or roll over unless you have a mechanical defect.
A gyro has to be landed a lot differnently to a FW with tricycle undercarriage. There really isnt much excuse for a well trained gyro pilot to bend a gyro landing, even with a lot of cross wind as you have so much controll authority in your hands and feet.

[Udi]

It goes without saying that good training is a must if you want to stay out of trouble. HOWEVER - some gyros may be more newbe friendly than others when it comes to landing. Can anyone honestly say they have never landed an aircraft with a crab?

Some aircraft can be landed with a greater sideways vector (crab) than others, without rolling over. Although I can't remember landing my gyro with a crab, I can testify that a C-152 can recover quite nicely from a crabbed landing.

Who hasn't seen a Dominator "dancing" on the runway after landing? Some people have bent their landing gear, and some rolled over. Sure, it's the pilot's fault - they have landed on one wheel first, or slightly crabbed. But some gyros would take the same landing without any such dancing (or the worst case scenario rollover).

Heather's question is specific to the G-force landing gear that Larry Neal developed for gyros. I assume that David's rollover accident with an AAI-modified RAF (Ruby) was the trigger for this question. I can't say for certainty that this specific rollover would have been prevented with a G-force - type landing gear, but I suspect it would have.

1. Any kind of vertical damping in the main gear system would have helped dissipate the energy instead of bouncing the gyro back into the air after the first contact. A G-force - type landing gear would do that, although there are other ways to damp vertical landing.

2. Was the high CG location a factor?

3. Is the gyro CG too close, laterally, to the wheelbase? If it is, a landing with a crab (with the gyro leaning backwords) may place the landing wheel ahead of the CG – and that’s a no no.

I think both the Dominator and the SH are great gyros but, although they are very stable in the air, they can be made more newbe friendly with a more forgiving landing gear design.

Udi

[Heron]

Matt . . .what do you think of a landing in one wheel having the G-Force?
Since I saw this guy landing in one wheel I keep thinking about it, is it a practical maneuver in regards to crab and can solve this problems or just a show of habilities?
It was a fairly windy day and I notice he always tilted the machine downwind, or wind from left, gyro to right and vice versa.
Cool stuff indeed!
thanks
Heron

[MattPearson]

I really want to give the most informed and intelligent answer to this question, but I would have to actaully go and try it specifically to give any feedback.
The G-force gear does firmly plant the gyro with no bounce at all. Since the left and right side do act independently of each other, the times that I have had cross wind landings in the Monarch, one side will give until both wheels are level even though the aircraft may be leaning one way or the other. Also, the gear is so wide, I would imagine it would take quite a bit of force to roll the aircraft over. I would imagine that the type of blades you are using would make a difference as well based on the "inertial bleed off" of rotor RPM after landing. Sport Copter blades speed up "slowly" and bleed off the same way. Dragon Wings are exactly the opposite. However for an identical rotor diameter and rotor rpm, the DW's will be creating more lift.
This is why it's hard to give a "gospel" answer. There are so many factors.

[Heron]

It is good enough to me, matches my thoughts on the matter.
I was thinking if you landed that way some correction should be made to avoid tipping to that side, since the suspension is giving and leaning the machine.
So it will level up when the other wheel hits?
Thanks
Heron

[MattPearson]

It levels once the other side bottoms out assuming you made no other control input.

[Heather Poe]

If I understand what is being said in the forum:

A horizontal stabilizer reduces tipping forward and backward during flight. More stable flight increases safety for novice pilots, but experienced pilots don't need it because of their increased skill level.

G-force - type landing gear reduces tipping left and right during landing. More stable landings increase safety for novice pilots, but experienced pilots don't need it because of their increased skill level.

Hmmm… Is this a pattern?

[MattPearson]

Heather, I don't think I would put it that way exactly.
A fixed horizontal on a gyro dampens the pitch axis of rotorcraft flight. It works the same way on a helicopter. Ground adjustable horizontals allow the operator to set the incidence for their optimum flight conditions.
A gyro that has centerline thrust may be flown perfectly fine without a horizontal stabilizer, but would require more control input by the pilot to counter wind gusts, turbulence, airframe drag at different speeds, etc... The stabilizer is just that, it stabilizes the aircraft there by making it more enjoyable to fly. You will find that there is even debate about where to put the horizontal.
If I had to chose, I would take centerline thrust, but why not have both.

I would feel pretty confident in saying that the G-force gear would not prevent a roll over the way you are intending it.
It might even make things worse if a new pilot did not master "normal" landing techniques before dabbling in the graces that the gear allows.
What the G-force gear was designed for and does very well is absorb higher than normal impacts caused by intentional or unintentional high decent rate landings.
I don't want to ramble so let me know if this is unclear. :confused:

[Heron]

Most of the discussions here end up in what I think rather than what is the rule.
Down in Brazil the guys I visited with say there is no need for stab or CLT (what is this CLT thing? they say) and that gyros are this way and that is it.
There is a discussion going on about the Mustering Gyro and it looks to me like they are talking the same thing as an acrobatic airplane that is built for a purpose and most pilots can not fly.They need a gyro that can respond quick and sacrifice something to achieve it, replacing it with piloting skills.
I hear some stupid coments about the Monarch and one is Who's going to slam a gyro in the floor like that?
NO one that does not need it, but just in case the capability is there, your gyro will be in pieces if it happens.
People tend to make up escuses for not doing what could or should be done, and sometimes the grapes are sour.
thanks
Heron

[Chopper Reid]

Matt, you answered Heather very well and I'm learning as well and you made a very important point about a new pilot needing to master "normal"landing techniques first.

[Heron]

I second that!
Heron