View Full Version : project update- beaty airframe with schneider landing gear
02-10-2005, 10:43 PM
I've had a couple of people ask me where I'm at with my project so I thought I'd run around the shop and take some pictures. I didn't do much cleaning up and yes, those are rabbits in the back corner .. long story- moral is "never say 'sure' if the teacher asks you to look after school pets over the summer."
922 - What I'm working on tonight; tack welding the replacement engine mount.
923 - The tack welded mount. Cross bars are made of 1" x 1.5" 065 wall rectangular wall tubing. Tangs on the nose of the mount haven't been tacked yet because I am making sure everything is straight before I lock it down. The gussets in the first rectangle will be welded on after the 45 degree joint is completed. The side rails are about two inches oversize now, they will be cut down after the bushings for the keel/mount and mount/boom struts are welded in place. Everything was square after tack welding .. yeehaw!
924 - The original mount I bought from Ernie B. Ernie made the mount to spec and replaced the machined aluminum crossbars when we realized they had been drilled backwards- the Hirth 3203 has a one of the forward bosses for mounting the engine about 4cm closer to the centerline. After got the struts I realized that I had exacerbated a problem that Chuck had on his machine .. interference between the keel/mount strut and the rear most washer. You can see the scallop I cut out of it trying to get clearance. I redesigned the mount to use standard lord bushings but kept the basic dimensions.
02-10-2005, 11:02 PM
Chuck's machine uses wheel barrow wheels for the mains with streamline tubing for the landing gear leg with a-arms that go back to the keel. A fiberglass spring with scratch built shock absorbers gives the machine very forgiving tracking over bumps. The nose wheel is free catering with a detuned nylon spring to prevent shimmy.
I decided to use off the shelf atb bicycle components like Carl Schneider has on his GyroCycle.
925 - The 20" front tire (the mains are 24" .. it's a rickshaw I tell ya) is a cane creek chronos. The rim is 7075 machined aluminum with a channel cross-section built in- a very stiff wheel. The fork has 3.5" of travel and I plan to use the nose brake mount for the centering/detuning spring. The short tube is the head tube .. based on the recent discussion about a failed head tube I'm welding a doubler inside it.
928 - The 7075 aluminum landing gear. I'll be taking this to John Landry's this weekend to drill it for the axles. The 4 black tubes on the table are the mast/boom and boom/mount struts with the boom bracket attached. The boom is standing up against the rack in the far right. The green box on the floor is all the chemicals- etch, alodine, etc.
930 - The headset bearings and bracket for the nose wheel. The axles for the mains are on the right.
02-10-2005, 11:10 PM
To simplify setting up the controls I am going to be using double push/pull cables for cyclic and rudder. This will let me run the rudder cables easily in the boom. I still need to figure out a universal joint for the stick.
929 - Rear view. The black stripe on the mast is an aluminum clamp that holds the ends of the boom/mast struts and the shoulder harness. On the lower cluster plates the upper black bar is an aluminum bracket the engine mount bolts to. Down low you see the keel/mount struts hanging from the rear of the keel. The boom is standing up against the rack next to a pair of 2.5 gallon air command bomb tanks. These will fair in attached to a plate that mounts to the bottom of the engine mount partially under the landing gear.
02-11-2005, 12:51 AM
that is a good job !
now i know what you were welding ;).
What is the mountain bike fork for ? looks like you gonna use the pedals axles.. for the wheels ?
i like this kind of use ..they are clean parts.
let me know
02-11-2005, 01:24 AM
Great stuff Larry, and thanks for the pics. The old 1000 words eh?
I would be interested in your universal joint/mixer arrangement for the stick when you have it designed.
Aussie Paul. :)
02-11-2005, 02:29 AM
Here is a pic of a cable arrangement of a morse cable assembly. Maybe this will help. I am not sure who's gyro this is I just save all the pic's to a file here.
02-11-2005, 02:38 AM
how do these cables work compared to rods ? are they a little more slack ? or are they precise ?
02-11-2005, 06:36 AM
The Flexdyne push-pull cables have a little flex in them, but the company has come out with a new line called the EXTREME flex system. they added
ribs to the outside of the inner tube. these new ones have much less slop
and just happen to be what I am planning on using on my build.
I am mounting the cables in the same location that the tubes usually get attached. (t-bar style) and for redundancy, I will mount a third cable directly to the rotor hub bar end. this way any 1 cable could fail, and the other two will still function properly to get you back on the ground !
These cables are used on todays high-end jetskis, and really give good contol of the jet nozzel !
02-11-2005, 07:31 AM
>What is the mountain bike fork for ? looks like you gonna use the pedals axles.. for the wheels ?
Hi Victor- I'm using a pedal powered prerotator with variable gearing ... I got the idea from a video game called "Prop Cycle." (http://www.bmigaming.com/games-videositdownrefurb-nr.htm) You pop weather balloons released by Mary Jane and the gang as you fly overhead. (Hey MJ- If I get the new contract I'm going for I may be coming to B-daze but otherwise I need to save my nickles for an engine, hopefully this year.)
(Kidding- the fork will be free castoring with a detuned centering spring. Steering on the ground is with differential brakes and rudder. The brakes are spiral stop ATB bicycle disk brakes.)
>Here is a pic of a cable arrangement of a morse cable assembly.
Thanks Mike- that 1000 words that Paul mentioned! This setup is using a pair of cables (one changes rotor plane in pitch and the other in roll) .. Ron Herron suggested double cables where each axis has two cables which prevents backlash and also adds redundancy (and cost and weight) ... I'm wondering if I could use a commercial off the shelf universal joint from lovejoy for the stick- John's been great about machining parts but I don't want to wear my welcome out in his shop!
>how do these cables work compared to rods ? are they a little more slack ? or are they precise ?
My understanding is that they hide some if not all of the stick shake which is a tradeoff- stick shake is part of the feedback from the rotor. RonH or others who've flown with cable controlled rotors may have some feedback on cables. Any pictures, hints, dire warnings, etc are welcome. Thanks very much for the flexdyne pointer .. more reading!
02-11-2005, 08:07 AM
Larry.... make it easy on yourself and just go with a overhead stick. Takes care of cyclic and gives you a place to mount the throttle. If your concerned about the backwards motions of a overhead, just reverse the controls at the rotorhead. Couldn't get a simpler, lighter, cheaper, or better way to do a cyclic than a overhead.
02-11-2005, 10:24 AM
>make it easy on yourself and just go with a overhead stick...
I had originally planned to do this and have had two hours of OH stick training with Scott Malone but I really found the joystick more comfortable. I also wanted to be able to feel comfortable with the "if you're fool enough to fly it I'm fool enough to let you" thing for foolish gyropilot friends and there aren't a lot of people who are comfortable with an overhead. Throttle will be a locking motorcycle twist grip like Chuck uses on a left hand side stick that forms the forward lip of the seat support. I agree about an overhead being a much more KISS solution .. when are you planning to change your joystick out? =)
Larry and Ron,
Can you steer car down the road if you hold the steering wheel at the 6 o'clock position with one hand?
Most drivers can steer okay that way, even though you have to move your hand to the right to get the car to turn left. Mental control reversal, eh?
Just use the mental control reversal on the overhead stick. Simple.
02-11-2005, 12:51 PM
>Just use the mental control reversal
I've flown two hours with an overhead stick after ten hours with a joystick and like the joystick. I used a homemade t-bar attached to an old joystick to fly the X-Plane gyro; flying the carter copter with an overhead was fun. My personal experience in an open frame soma side-by-side was that I had a great deal of difficulty holding a line and doing s-curves with the overhead. This may have been from the position of the bolted on OH stick or a failure to make the 6 o'clock/12 o'clock shift. I'm not sure that the analogy of turning a steering wheel locked into one plane is a fair one to moving a lever in 3D- see the "rub your belly and pat your head" thing Ron posted awhile back for an example of something that sounds simple but isn't.
Anyhow, I'm lazy. A joystick moves the head at a higher control-to-head motion ratio (there has to be a word for that) and so I can rest my arm on my leg and not have to hold my arms out in front of me for an hour. These are my rationalizations and your own milage may vary.
02-11-2005, 03:10 PM
Larry, I really want a overhead stick on mine. One of these days I am going to add one and keep the normal stick until I get used the the overhead.
02-11-2005, 05:34 PM
>The Flexdyne push-pull cables
Hey Tim- I've searched flexdyne, flexidyne, flexadine, "EXTREME flex" .. all came up empty. Any ideas where to look?
02-11-2005, 06:18 PM
He undoubtedly meant to say Teleflex not flexdyne.
(I searched on push pull cables) :D
02-11-2005, 10:40 PM
Larry, you mention weight...
Are 24-inch bicycle-wheel mains not overkill for such a light design? What is their effect on CoG and center-of-drag?
02-12-2005, 05:22 AM
>He undoubtedly meant to say Teleflex not flexdyne.
Hi Al- Teleflex TFXtreme series 40 cables were what I was planning on using; I need to remember that sales people spell "extreme" differently and that the suffix "-dyne" often appears unannounced when it comes to anything mechanical.
> What is their effect on CoG and center-of-drag?
Hi Paul- The aluminum landing gear and axles are heavier by about eight-ten pounds over what Chuck did including the a-arms. The wheels themselves aren't much more than the wheel barrow ones (steel rims) and their weight isn't all down low. I went for the larger wheel because it cut off 16"+ of 3/4" x 3" 7075 from the bottom of the landing gear over three 20" wheels and saved two or three pounds all down low. The 20" and 24" cane creek chronos wheels are designed for heavy side loads and are used by bmx/atb stunt riders. I'll see the effect on CG when I do the hang test. Plan to check the center of drag in an open air wind tunnel but I have a longer moment arm (+2' I'd guess) on a larger horizontal than Carl has so I'm hopeful it won't bob or weave.
02-12-2005, 05:31 AM
Who makes the aluminum gear?
02-13-2005, 05:20 PM
And how did you research and compare bicycle rims (strength and side load)? I've tried searches a couple times and found manufacturers to be tight lipped. (Maybe I have to try somebody besides Shwinn and Huffy :) )
02-13-2005, 05:48 PM
This is a reply I received on a Brent Brown thread on his gear. They look the same. 2-4-04
The was maade by Grove Aircraft LGS,inc. $815.This gyro will be 750-800 gross. They can make you anysize you need.
03-06-2005, 09:51 PM
I had missed these- sorry.
>And how did you research and compare bicycle rims (strength and side load)?
I'm doing monkey-see-monkey-do on the bicycle wheels and picked the strongest ones I could find. If they fold up we have a home depot with wheelbarrow wheels down the road.
>The was maade by Grove Aircraft LGS,inc. $815.This gyro will be 750-800 gross.
I think it was Grove. My machine should have an all up weight under 450 lbs.
Here's the latest. I finished welding the engine mount two days ago except for a pair of 1/8" triangular gussets at the front. Today I cleaned out the bushings and bolted all the struts, the mount, and the airframe together for the first time. The interference from the rear engine crossbar is not a problem anymore and the engine is level and a two inch twist I previously had in the boom has been fixed. Very happy.
03-07-2005, 04:29 AM
Larry - now I remember... your the larry I spoke with about chuck's design!
I'm the goof-ball that was working on turning chuck's design into a square tube bolt-together-design.... you had done some cadd models of the design as you were/are going to build it !
Small-world. Glad to see you are now building parts ! as you can see I used some of chuck's concepts and then "went off into left field" with it !!!
I have had fun.. so I guess thats what counts !
I got your E-mail from John. As long as the committee is O.K. with the addition then I feel it is a great match !
I will send you the info you requested at lunch time (12:30 here)
Keep up the good progress on the build !!
03-07-2005, 07:24 AM
>Glad to see you are now building parts
Hiya Tim- I've been building/aquiring parts for four years. ;) I gotten despondent about my progress from time to time after a set back but always seem to wander back. Made the tail wheel forks (twice) in 2000. I never would have made any progress at all without friends like John Landry harassing me and offering help in the same breath.
03-07-2005, 07:42 AM
Hello Larry, Your tenacity is very impresive. I was wondering how long it typicaly is from the decision to build to the first flight on a gyroplane. I once worked on a project for eight months and then sawed it up, is this typical? Thank you, Vance
03-07-2005, 07:50 AM
Larry - I know what you mean. I have had a huge amount of encouragement myself. When I moved up here to the Mentone area, and became a club member of chapter 81 things just kinda took-off !
Keep workin away at you build and before you know it you'll be flying !
Don Shoebridge and I work together on our respective projects, and keep each other motivated with the "my builds better then your build" arguments!
Keeps the building fun, and it's nice having someone else looking over your shoulder and pointing out your mistakes sometimes BERFORE you actually make them !!!
Any help I can throw your way .... just let me know.....
03-07-2005, 09:27 AM
>I once worked on a project for eight months and then sawed it up, is this typical?
I have several interesting sculptures in my garage but most of the time the destructive aspects weren't planned. Did you know that a holesaw, a drill press, and a long piece of 3" diameter tubing make a dandy screw cutter? :eek:
-Larry "fingers are important- hang on to them"
05-04-2005, 04:09 AM
Iím big fan of chuck's concepts gyro, your project is very impressive. I like bicycle wheels concept.
Larry, also I would really appreciate if you could send me the drawings of yours airframe and same basics dimension.
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