Prince Props

[Brian Jackson]

Does anyone know if Prince Props has a web site? I've searched Google and came up with little besides some very general info. If someone is familiar with these propellers (the P-tip) and/or has used them on a gyro, please post a short review.

A friend whom I've since lost touch with used a 2-blade Prince P-tip prop on a Mini-Max FW and people raved about the efficiency and about how QUIET it was. Do they make a 3-blade version? Lastly, I've misplaced my car keys... Does anyone know where they might be?

Thanks,
Brian Jackson

[robertstodaro]

prince props phone 419-877-5557

[KenSandyEggo]

I have a Prince prop that I flew for awhile. It's off now because I bought an IVO cockpit adjustable prop. You can't beat it for quality, performance and quietness. And they're also pretty. I think Lonnie is just too busy to get a website going. he seemingly has all the business that he can handle.

[gyromike]

Yep.

www.princeaircraft.com (http://www.princeaircraft.com/index.html)

[KenSandyEggo]

Guess he found time, but not enough time to make the photos work.

[Harry_S.]

Mike is always there with the info...never fails?!


Cheers :)

[Brian Jackson]

I just got off the phone from a half-hour conversation with Mr. Lonnie Prince. What an amazing and nice fellow. We discussed various prop configurations, and he has a formula based on cruise airspeed, prop RPM, redrive ratio and horsepower to determine the prop he will hand-make for me. Not sure yet if it's a 2-blade or a 3-blade, but he's designing it around the criteria of a GyroBee 447. It's a wood core/carbon fibre overlay with tip vortex gens. I gave him the specs.

What an amazingly nice guy Lonnie is! And extremely knowledgeable.

We talked for a while, and in closing we chit-chatted a bit about each other's expertise and experience. Turns out he's seeking a good photographer to showcase his props for display on their new web site. I didn't know they had one until then. He asked if I had a green-screen or background isolator, which I do.

In short, Prince HQ is only a moderate drive from me, and a little "horse trading" was not out of the question... in fact it was mentioned. So Queen Bee might just get a great prop while Prince Propellers gets some incredible marketing photos.

I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks to all whom have responded.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

[banaari]

Oh to live in the same hemisphere ... i've sent him an email along much the same lines... you going with a 447?

[gyromike]

Mike is always there with the info...never fails?!


Cheers :)

Thanks Harry.
I try to take care of my little chicks.

Ken J. too. :D

[Brian Jackson]

Oh to live in the same hemisphere ... i've sent him an email along much the same lines... you going with a 447?
Yep. I know the 503 is a great engine, which if I remember correctly you are using on your ship. But I'm gonna stay with the 447 because it's a few pounds lighter and, being a rather small guy, should offer great performance. Ralph is a bigger guy than me and has found the 447 to be more than adequate. Couple that with the variable pitch blade physics of a Prince prop... I don't think power, performance or efficiency will be an issue.

This is good because I'd like to treat an experienced Gyro pilot (in type) and their family to a nice dinner if they'd test fly Queen Bee on her maiden voyage. Statistically speaking most people are larger than me, so I wouldn't consider an engine/prop configuration that couldn't perform well under a heavier load. But I'm still learning this stuff and asking a lot of questions. That's why I place such value in the opinions of those whom have flown with the equipment in question.

Love your web site, John! :) It's one of the bookmarks I check regularly. I hope to re-launch my construction diary soon, since my business partner turned out to be such a penis and closed RotoPix without telling me.

Your friend,
Brian Jackson

[banaari]

Hehe - I spent several weeks tossing the two up... came down to two issues... 1) a slightly larger-than-necessary engine, run *below* its design stress will theoretically last way longer than the converse situation... and 2) marketing: "And see honey, it's got dual ignition, just like a proper aeroplane" !!

I faithfully promise to pester you until your site is back up :)

cheers,
John
(Freshly minted PRA #40427)

[GyroRon]

Brian, get off the computer and get in the workshop. If you get it done in time for Bensen Days and bring it down, I will test fly it for you. I don't need a fancy dinner, a Double CheeseBurger meal - super sized of course - at McDonalds will do me! :)

[Brian Jackson]

Brian, get off the computer and get in the workshop. If you get it done in time for Bensen Days and bring it down, I will test fly it for you. I don't need a fancy dinner, a Double CheeseBurger meal - super sized of course - at McDonalds will do me! :)
...And how did I know you would answer this post. :D Actually I was hoping you would, since you've tested other 'Bees before mine. I would greatly appreciate your input, and was thinking more of a Lobster dinner of sorts. I'm kind of a cheeseburger guy too, so we'll work something out.

All the best,
Brian Jackson

[gyromike]

Brian,

I'll beat Ron's offer and do it for a Wendys Jr. Bacon Cheeseburger and Medium Diet Coke!

$1.98 plus tax. :D

[Brian Jackson]

Brian,

I'll beat Ron's offer and do it for a Wendys Jr. Bacon Cheeseburger and Medium Diet Coke!

$1.98 plus tax. :D
Man, this is sounding like an eBay auction... Junior bacon CB eh? Sounds tempting, but think I'll hold out and see if someone will fly it for a small fry and a Frosty :D

Fortunately there's plenty of time before she's ready to take to the skies. (And why is "skies" plural when there's only one? Must be a TimeCube (http://www.timecube.com) thing :) )

John, your reasoning is sound. There's actually a gentleman near here named Bill Wolverton whom has a low-hour 503 for sale... think he's asking around $1800 for it. It's a tempting offer, especially considering Mr. Taggart is using a 503 on the new machine he's currently building. If anyone's interested I can put you guys in touch.

Cheers,
Brian Jackson

[PW_Plack]

Brian, with a 447, you need to be trolling for guys who prefer the salad menu. :)

[Brian Jackson]

Brian, with a 447, you need to be trolling for guys who prefer the salad menu. :)
Hi Paul.
I'm confused... Mr. Taggart professed to weigh in at (I believe) 220, and was getting exceptional climb rate on his prototype Bee with a 447. I wouldn't mind the extra few horses of a 503, but it would place itself out of the legal UL realm.

[GyroRon]

Brian I flew Ultracrusiers Bee for it's madien flight and it had a 447 on it. He upgraded to a 503 not really for the power but just cause it was a good deal. It flew my Fat McAss around no problem. Just keep it light and you will be happy.

[MattPearson]

Brian,
I flew one of our club members Bees. He had a 447 and 24ft RD instead of the prescribed 25fters. I weigh 200 and it was a mid 80's day in TX. It did OK, but the CHT's on the engine were climbing pretty quickly on climb out.
If I had a 447 Bee, I would at least put dual carbs on it or buy a 503 and definitely stick with the larger rotor diameter. IMO.

[banaari]

I'd like to publicly thank Brian for starting this thread. :)

I had no idea Prince Aircraft existed... and was only a few days away from paying for a different prop. (Perfectly respectable and very popular, but not quite a P-tip). Fortunately, the individual concerned (the local distributor) hasn't exactly hurried to do anything about that particular email.

I've since cancelled that, and this morning have ordered a carbon-fibre P-tip from Lonnie... to echo Brian, that gentleman has got to be one of the nicest and most helpful guys in aviation.

Down to the mailbox to wait and drool...

John

[CLS447]

John, what engine did you order the prop for?

How long is the wait & what was his price? Diameter & pitch?

[banaari]

Hi Chris,
it's going on a Rotax 503, DCDI. 60"/34"-38". Price is dependent on diameter, ~US$800. And ~30 days or so.

If you're contemplating one, you really have to talk to the man. A) so he can get all the needed information and B) because it's a very enjoyable experience.

cheers,
John

[CLS447]

I want one , but I can't afford to make that call quite yet.

After I do the head upgrade on my EA81 , I will have a better grip on the HP & what I will need.

I sure do want to hear about your prop when it comes. Will you be actually comparing it to another prop with a thrust test?

On my 447 I am running a 60" Ivo. I am very happy with that, but it would be interesting to compare with a Prince. If it works better on the little 40 horse engine , imagine what it could do with over 100 HP !

[GyroRon]

I think the Prince may make a tad more thrust on most engines over other props. In some cases it may make a good bit more thrust in others it may make a tad LESS thrust. In any case it is too much money for me to even think of using one on my gyro. They are fragile Wooden props and will not take abuse like a Warp Drive. If I were building a Bee and was looking for a good prop, I would either go Warp Drive or to save weight and money go with a simple Tenn Wood Prop - just like what is standard on Larry Neals Butterfly.

[CLS447]

Cmon Ron ! It's only money !

2 airplanes & 1 gyro, new truck, Harley....on & on.... I bet you could afford any prop you wanted. Why not the best?

I'm pretty sure we're bringing the camper to BD's . We'll bring the thrust scale, line em up! I never thrust tested my 447 , I might haul that down, what do you think?

[GyroRon]

Chris, get a better trailer and haul em both down!

And yes it is only money, but if I had the " best " of everything - ie... the most expensive - I might not be able to have all my toys.

I have yet to have a prop that DIDN'T get a rock or bolt or something out of my pocket or etc... to go through it. Lucky for me the Warp Drives I have run just eat what you throw through them and with some super glue and baking soda I can fix it like new and It didn't ruin my day.

As for using a Prince on a gyrobee..... That is like buying cheap import car like a Kia and putting on a set of Big tall chrome wheels that cost nearly as much as the car! The gyrobee is a light simple and most importantly a Affordable gyroplane. Keep it light simple and cheap and enjoy it. Save the upgrade moneys for the next machine. :)

and remember I am just bull$hitting. Do what you guys want. I just find it interesting that someone would build a inexpensive gyro and in most cases buy a used engine with questionable history and then look at the most expensive props you could use on it.

[Brian Jackson]

Well, Ron, you'll seriously question my sanity then. :D QB's getting a Prince prop, Sportcopter blades, hub & head, and a factory new Rotax with intake silencer. It ain't so much that it's a "starter" gyro, I just love the design of the GyroBee regardless of how inexpensive the rolling airframe itself is to build.

[GyroRon]

The gyrobee is a nice starter machine for many reasons. If you want to load it up with the goodies then go ahead! It won't be a ultralight with all the stuff your going to use though, just keep that in mind for starters Brian.

And I know most people don't consider this, but please consider resale value. No matter how much goodies you put on it, a gyrobee is only going to be worth so much money. I bring up resale value because after you see other gyros perform you very likely will want to move into a Monarch or Aircommand or Dominator etc.... a year or two after the Bee is done.

[CLS447]

Ron, the SxS is coming back to ROC to blow your mind. It won't be ready for BD's. It's too far to haul my heavy metal.

If Capt. George & George Moore don't come down with me, Larry B. might. He asked if we could haul his RAF down instead. Maybe, if he is really serious.

Brian, I believe in beauty in simplicity ! That is gonna be one beauty of a Bee. You are doing alot of hard work on the airframe, why not finish it off with the best bought components, like you just said?

One question though...Why the intake silencer? Don't they rob HP ? With a Prince prop, that 447 should be plenty quite.

My 447 has been very good to me. I chose that engine to be legal ultralight but with all my extras, I don't think it was ever under 254lbs. I hope to get a dry weight for it this year.
I go about 190lbs. On hot summer days it can take a while to climb. It's a good thing the machine is nimble because I have had to abort takeoffs already by doing a quick 180 back to the runway!
My 447 is nearing the end of it's useful lifespan(without rebuilding). If I could do it over again I would choose the 503. When I replace the engine it will be a new 503.

Damn phone calls! I keep losing my train of thought. Where was I.... oh...

Take it from me ....it sucks to be underpowered ! I'm not sure how much more the 503 weighs or costs but it would be worth it. Now, I never tried the Prince but I have tried 3 props ending up with the IVO, not because of it's necksnapping thrust but because of it's simple adjustment. I like it. But I was looking for performance gains.

I even thought about spending the $500 for the dual carb setup for the 447, but they only claim 2hp gain. Not enough for the hassle.

Since you still have time to decide , you might give the 503 some consideration. I don't think that you would regret it. It worries me when I have to run the 447 wide open for extended periods of time & having to count on a headwind to climb.

[GyroRon]

Chris, we have a SeaRay flying boat at our airport. One of the guys bought it recently for about 30 grand. The owner he bought it from - the guy who built it - had your attitude when he built it. Let me list some of the equipment on this plane.

Rotax 914 Turbo engine - close to 20 grand right there -
Custom in flight adjustable prop, not a Ivo - sold new for about 5 grand -
Over 25 thousand dollars in avionics in the panel, was fully IFR and had autopilot
Special top of the line retractable gear - several thousand dollar extra
BRS chute - 4000$

And on and on.... This sucker is loaded. The owner had over 100 grand in it. It sold for what market value is on those planes. He lost his shirt on it I would say. It only had about 150 hours since new.

In my experience the plane would have sold for just as much with the much cheaper 80 horse Rotax and a VFR panel and no extras. The guy at my field who bought it stripped the panel out and sold everything, plus the prop and got nearly 15 grand for all that stuff and now has a nice SeaRay with the top of the line engine for about 15 grand investment.

I know a gyrobee is not the same but it is.

[scottessex]

Power is Good! Go with the 503, My new soma has a hirth 2706 65hp, it has LOTS more power to spare than the old 65 hp Arrow, power is good!

[banaari]

...They are fragile Wooden props and will not take abuse like a Warp Drive.

Those props are nowhere near as fragile if you order the carbon-fibre sheathed version.

...I just find it interesting that someone would build a inexpensive gyro and in most cases buy a used engine with questionable history and then look at the most expensive props you could use on it..

Hehe... no one's doing that as far as I know.... in my case, Delta Echo's got a brand-new engine, no history questionable or otherwise. And the cost of the prop is small percentage of the total aircraft. In any case, unless you're in it commercially, a relationship with a flying machine is always going to be 99% emotional, constrained only when strictly necessary by financial reality. It's an aesthetic thing. :D

[CLS447]

Ron, I feel bad for people who have to sell their toys & take a beating on it to. That is why I hardly ever sell anything....

Why did that guy have to sell that plane?

On some items you must realize that you will not get your money back if sold. I don't think that anybody is planning on selling something that they are now building to their own specs. Unless you just like giving away your hard work at a loss. Personally, I don't work for free, do you? It's great buying something for pennies on the dollar, even if the seller is not happy about selling for a loss. It's a cold , hard world but money talks.

[PW_Plack]

Ron, resale is only a big consideration for someone who trades frequently, like you. If you fly a GyroBee for 4 years and 400 hours, that Prince prop is mighty cheap per hour for the difference in performance. Some fliers also have to worry about noise.

You said: "As for using a Prince on a gyrobee..... That is like buying cheap import car like a Kia and putting on a set of Big tall chrome wheels that cost nearly as much as the car!"

Huh? The wheels will make, at best, a negligible improvement in a Kia's performance. I think this is more like the guys who buy a stripper two-door hardtop with rubber mats and no frills, but with a high-performance drivetrain. A really efficient prop on a machine powered by a 447 or 503 makes perfect sense to me.

But, 20-inch wheels and Prince props are similar in one sense...when you go to sell, you can remove either one and save it for your next project, or sell the parts separately.

GyroBees aren't always being selected for their low cost, but because of all the plans-built machines, the 'Bee may be the most appealing design for low-time amateur machinists with limited tools. Hey - John Landry's got a transponder on his!

[GyroRon]

I know what your saying guys and I am not trying to be the ugly guy here!

Chris, don't know why he sold but I got the feeling he wanted another airplane and couldn't afford to keep both. Why does anyone sell? I am not the only one who sells their aircraft from time to time!!! Go to Ebay, Barnstomers, Trade A Plane, etc.... There is thousands of aircraft for sale at any given time.

Banarri, The carbon version will be a stronger prop but still easily ruined. Just be careful. The Carbon prop is about what... 1000$ ??? How much is a nice three blade Warp drive?

Barrys Gyrobee - Ultracruiser41 - has a 503 and a two blade warp drive. It is very quiet. most of the noise you hear is the intake and exhaust on the engine, very little prop noise. I have a 3 blade warp and a stock 582 and several people have told me I got one of the quiestest gyros they have heard.

Paul, I am not talking about performance wheels on a Kia, I am talking about the kind that keep spinning when you stop! The Bling Bling wheels! :)

Look I am not trying to be a party pooper. I know people want to make their machines as perfect as possible, and resale is the last thing in a builders mind. If it makes you feel better to spend 2-3 times as much on the prop, then go for it! If you think you will never sell your gyro then you might as well put every last red cent into it...

[banaari]

Ron, relaaaaaaaaaxxxxx mon - I wasn't taking you seriously. :)
The carbon-fibre P-tip prop works out ~US$830. The Ivoprop would have been ~$440, and the non-carbon-fibre P-tip at ~$540.

[Brian Jackson]

Ron,
I hear what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense. Though I have no intentions of ever selling my GyroBee, I've learned never to say never. Who knows what the future holds.

As for weight, I'm not loading the ship up with "goodies" at all. The Prince should weigh no more than (or very close to) a standard wood prop, and the SportCopter blades/bar/head for the 'Bee, from what I've learned from multiple sources, are only about 4 lbs. over the same Dragon Wings setup. The weight being high on the mast helps with CLT slightly. Instrumentation will be basic, and it may not even need an intake silencer. If I decide to add one later, they're very light. Since the vast majority of the airframe will not be painted or powder coated, there's perhaps a pound of savings right there.

I'm really trying to keep her as light as possible, and resisting the temptation to add any "goodies"... it's just not that kind of ship. I'd love to put strobes on her, but that would involve an electrical system and associated hardware that would more than likely push her over the UL class.

Eventually I'd like to build a 2-place once I've got a year or two flight experience and a PPL, where I can add such extras. Until then I'm keeping a very minimalist attitude. There's still a long way to go before she's ready for flight, but I'm just planning ahead.

Cheers,
Brian Jackson

[GyroRon]

Barry loves his bee. He thought he had the machine of his dreams till the other day when we flew together. As I am trying to reduce speed to allow him to keep up with me, he is running full power to keep up. I am out of the wind blast behind my pod, he is freezing his butt off in the wind. I am climbing out at about twice the rate of climb and I am able to land and take off from less than 300 feet and he needs at least 1200 feet minimum. I can cruise at 80 mph quite easily he can barely do 50 mph.

Now Barry wants to start building a Dominator. He will have to sell the bee at some point to help buy parts and engines etc... for his dominator.

[Doug Riley]

"Barely do 50?" Something's wrong there. Even with a 447, it's hard to keep a 'Bee or other light gyro from being capable of busting the Part 103 speed limit of 63 mph.

[Friendly]

Brian
your project is great. A gyro is like a Harley. Everybody has an ideal of what they want. While Ron has pointed out some good thoughts that people face as they grow in the sport yours may still be right for you 5 years down the road or what ever. Keep us posted on the progress. Our first projects always seem to say alot of who we are rather than what it is. Yours is a great picture of a great little gyro. I believe the gyro bee has made it possible for many begininers to enter the sport of gyros. It is good to see the craftmanship devoted to these gyros as well as the better known performace models. Keep those pictures coming.

[GyroRon]

Doug I was indicating 50 mph asnd leaving him in my two stroke dust! When we de briefed after the flight he told me he was turning over 6200 RPM to try to stay with me. Maybe something ain't right with his machine.... Rick Martins gyrobee also did not want to go much faster than about 50-55 mph. I am sure both can go faster but at full throttle and the machine does not feel like it likes running that hard or fast.

[RICK MARTIN]

Ron,
Remember that my prop was pitched at 6400 static.

[GyroRon]

Yes Rick, but my point was every machine - from my Piper to your gyrobee - has a cruise speed that is comfortable. on the gyrobees I have flown 40-50 mph is thaty sweet spot. It is 65-75 in the Dominator. Both machines would be turning the same rpms at that speed. Barry did not like seeing me leaving him in my wake. He borrowed my plans and assembly manual to look over to see if he wants to start his own Dominator now. It is no different than me trying to piece together a deal on a VANS RV-4, because I am tired of my friends leaving me in their av-gas dust when I am flying my Pacer and they are flying RV's and Harmon Rockets and so on. I got the need..... The need for Speed!!!

[Dale Young]

My Bee cruises at around 50, but that's fine for me. Anything faster feels uncomfortable. Not for the Bee,but for ME. Kinda like hangin your head outta car door. I used to fly with a full face helmet,and even then all I could comfortably tolerate was about 6o. My Grumman allows the cockpit canopy to stay open up to 120 :eek: , Although I've never tried it

[Dale Young]

By the way, To this day, I still have'nt ran my Rotax full throttle in-flight for more than 5 seconds. It took off and up like a rocket(kinda scared me!) Barry may just need a little prop adjustment. I usually cruise at 50 at around 5800 rpms.

[GyroRon]

Dale how much do you weight? And your machine, what does it weight? Barrys prop pitch is right on the money, and it climbs out fine, just half as fast as mine! ;)

[Dale Young]

I'm around 198, and the Bee is around the limit (254 I think).But even with 25ft Rotordynes ,I still have no trouble getting to 60+. I have a three bladed Ivo, and a 503dc.