sparrowhawk questions [Archive]

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ptope

01-22-2005, 08:45 AM

hello, i am getting ready to purchase a sparrowhawk in the next couple of months, (finances willing) and i had a couple of questions. one question is, is the ej 2.5 worth the upgrade. we will be flying mostly from airports close to sea level, but we want decent performance at gross weight, IE two "real" people and full tank of fuel. i know we wont get single place performance, but i would like to see 500fpm climb on 70 or 80 degree day at gross. is this bird capable of that with the ej2.2?

also i would like to know from anyone that has one or has heard if there is any recomdations, fixes, tips or recomended upgrades.

does anyone know if AAI is going to be offering any other upgrades other than listed, in the near future.

thanks for your help. just want to make sure i research as much as possible for our $30,000 investment..

teiland

01-22-2005, 10:01 AM

Patrick, I am sure Randy Coplen, our dealer in your area will be glad to help you with any of these issues, although, I suspect you may already know him.

I have now trained 160 hrs. in my Sparrowhawk with the 2.2, and am pleased with the performance. I just had a gentleman in from New Hampshire for several days training who weighed over 240. (I weigh about 185). He is an experienced helicopter and FW pilot with over 2000 helicopter hours. He was so impressed with the SH that he placed an order for a machine with the 2.2. We are at sea level, and the temp was in the 60’s and 70’s while he was here.

I have flown passengers weighing as much as 285, but that is pushing the limit.

There are likely to be some modifications down the road, but for now most of the emphasis is on getting what we are doing now right. Like anything else there is a learning curve, and while we don’t have any big issues, there are some things that all of us are working on to improve the machine, the kit, delivery process, delivery time, etc.

I personally do not “push” the 2.5 for most buyers. I am quite happy with my 2.2 in my locale and situation. Higher altitudes and higher loads can surely change that, of course.

As I tell everyone, we are not the “only game in town” but for those wanting an enclosed two place side-by-side, it is hard to beat.

ptope

01-22-2005, 11:15 AM

thanks for you comments. We are definatly going sparrowhawk. We just want to make sure we do it right the first time.I would rather spend a little more up front than have to do it again later. i appreciate your time and comments. your experience regarding performance is greatly appreciated. For some reason it is really hard to find experiences people have had with this new aircraft, IE performance, handleling charicteristics, ETC. thanks again, patrick

Harry_S.

01-22-2005, 01:13 PM

Patrick:
I'm not pushing the RAF or the SH...I agree with Terry, the 2.2 engine will, or, should provide the power you will need at sea level; in my opinion.

Cheers :)

rehler

01-22-2005, 02:58 PM

On the other hand, I would spend the additional cost for the larger engine if it is less than $1000. You can't have too much power at times and you really wouldn't want to add it later.

Several people during Oshkosh said the RAF really out performed the Sparrow Hawk, but the RAF demonstrator had a larger engine. So it was apples to oranges.

Congratulations on your choice. The Sparrow Hawk would be my choice if I were to buy a new gyro - without question.

KenSandyEggo

01-22-2005, 05:06 PM

I'll be posting some pics in another thread, but I have the Sparrowhawk conversion with a 2.2 and after-market FI and ignition systems. I flew to Ramona today to visit my buddy Reis Evans. He weighs 285 and I'm a nick under 200 and I left on the 15 minute flight with a full tank of gas. We went up in the afternoon and it was about 80 degrees and at 1394' MSL. I pitched the prop for 5400 take-off rpm, but was able to pull it back to 5,000 in cruise and about 75 m.p.h. My gyro has a lot of add-ons and is not light. We did O.K. We climbed out at around 300 fpm.

I'd only go for the 2.5 if you plan to carry this much weight or fly at high altitudes, and according to an experienced Soob mechanic I know, it's a superior engine to the 2.5. Some 2.5s have been plagued with head leaks. Soob's cure was to add their version of "Stop-Leak" to the cooling system.

Jerseywing

01-22-2005, 05:22 PM

We went up in the afternoon and it was about 80 degrees and at 1394' MSL.

Go ahead rub it in Ken...

Timchick

01-22-2005, 05:43 PM

Yeh, Rub it in. It was only around 70 here today.

GyroRon

01-22-2005, 07:52 PM

it was a balmy 31-33 degrees here today. Spent the day int he freezing rain - with a cold and no sleep to boot - making improvements to my hangar, replacing the doors. Yuck! Tommorow is to be just as cold but windy as well...

KenSandyEggo

01-22-2005, 10:39 PM

Wait'll you see the pics I'm about to post.

r.coplen

01-23-2005, 08:50 AM

Ken,

I understand that you tried an Ivo prop on your AAI mod RAF. Can you give us a report?

Thanks

Aussie_Paul

01-23-2005, 09:47 AM

.... "a nick under 200"

Yeah right Ken!!!! LOL ;)

Aussie Paul.

KenSandyEggo

01-23-2005, 07:34 PM

I am!!! A small nick, but nevertheless a nick under. I've lost about 8 pounds over the last few months. I'm getting a haircut tomorrow, so Ill weigh even less! I took some Metamucil, so.......never mind.

automan1223

01-27-2005, 05:34 PM

Word got out you visited N carolina, sorry I missed you guys but the winter is not the best time to visit .

When will you be making another trip ?

Jonathan
Oriental NC

automan1223

01-27-2005, 05:38 PM

Talk to me about how the 2.2 does fully loaded in 95 degree heat I would take the 2.5.

There is no replacement for displacement. I would go with the 2.5. They have updated the head gaskets. They also have adjustable rocker arms for valve adjustments ! If you have an older engine, it is really nothing more than a days work to install a new set. Stop leak is s.o.p for any aluminum engine as they ALL have porosity issues.

Jonathan

KenSandyEggo

01-27-2005, 09:45 PM

I'll be in the Charlotte area sometime this year, hopefully not before too long.

Aussie_Paul

01-28-2005, 11:11 AM

Patrick, with the heavier weight of the S/H over a Raf, you would be wise to install the SOHC ej-25.

Aussie Paul. :)

ptope

01-28-2005, 12:27 PM

thats what we were thinking, but i wasnt sure if the extra 17 hp was worth the 3 grand. does any one know what the difference in thrust is between the 2.2 and the 2.5? if we use thrust to compare the 2 then we should be closer to comparing apples to apples..thanks.

jos

01-28-2005, 12:29 PM

Hello,

Gyroplanefun is equal to the amount of invisible magic coming out of a crankshaft called horsepower.

JOS

Timchick

01-28-2005, 04:55 PM

I think he's trying to say what Tool Man Tim says, "More power!"

Chopper Reid

01-29-2005, 05:30 PM

How much heavier is the 2.5 over the 2.2 ??
The S/H appears extremely heavy. How much lighter is the RAF ?

Jerry Carter

01-29-2005, 06:30 PM

How much heavier is the 2.5 over the 2.2 ??
The S/H appears extremely heavy. How much lighter is the RAF ?

AAI lists a dry weight of 850 lbs, Gross wt. 1350 lbs using the EJ 22 listed at 148 hp.

RAF shows a dry weight of 760 lbs and "category weight" pf 1540 lbs. They show their EJ 22 producing 130 hp.

MichaelBurton

01-30-2005, 06:04 PM

160 hp for the ej22 with the cam mod.
190 hp for the ej25 with the cam mod.
Thats 30 hp for only 8 lbs.

AirgyroAviation

02-05-2005, 07:55 PM

Groen Bros does not currently offer the EJ25 with the Cam grind upgrade. However, once you get your engine you can get the upgrade done which will add the additional horsepower as Mike posted. 20 horsepower extra is worth the 200 bucks for the cam grind! All of the EJ22's that are sold with the Sparrowhawk basic kit come with cam upgrades as we understand and make them sweet little performers. We are operating at an airport with a field elevation of 4500 ft and have been running a successful flight school since September 2004. We have flown 200 + hours with our EJ22 and are just now upgrading to the 2.5 for added range and carrying capacity. We have flown with 6.5ft 280lb. students (Pilot weighs 190lbs.) fine however we are looking forward to the larger engine performance improvements for shorter takeoffs, better climb rates, more carrying capacity, faster top end speeds (variable pitch prop. - The IVO Magnum with inflight adjust would be nice as well...KenSandyEggo is the expert on the prop. upgrade...we are working on hub and clearance issues there before we upgrade)

BSAFER

02-07-2005, 09:07 AM

Is weight and cost the only downside with the Cam upgrade? I'm not an engine expert but I would expect some other downside (i.e. Heat, fuel consumption, life of engine, etc).

I'm in Denver and want every horse I can get, although horses cost allot and take alot of time. :o

Does AAI support the mod?

Brent

rfi

02-07-2005, 03:09 PM

Brent,
With the cam grind you will burn a little more fuel, even at the same power because there is a considerable amount of valve overlap. Of course, you will burn more fuel if you are developing more power. That is the only downside that I know of. I found out about the Stratus grind a few years ago and have probably sent at least a hundred people to Delta Camshaft who does the grind. I haven't had any complaints from anyone so far.
The EJ22 has been dyno tested in two locations and the same results were obtained. The stock engine makes 130 hp at 5400 rpm. With the cam grind the engine develops 150 hp at 5400. At 5700 the recammed engine cranks out 158 hp.
The EJ25 has increased performance with the same cam grind but I don't know of any dyno tests, but it is estimated that the SOHC EJ25 will make around 190 hp at 5700.

jos

02-07-2005, 03:45 PM

Hello,

The different cam timing improves the volumetric efficiency at the higher revs.
The higher cylinder fillings give more power and and improve the power to weigt ratio.
In the midrange rpm the valve overlap will create a loss in volumetric efficienty because some of the mixture will dissapear through the open exhaust valve. This mightreduce in midrange ( cruise )rpm the economy.
In this rpm band the cam timing does work less good for the gas speeds.
Almost all changes to internal combustion engines make the engine behave different as well in the low as midrange as in the high rpm's.
Like small pitched prop push hard at low speeds and the bigger pitch does it at high speeds.
It's all a matter what one wants.
The EJ series of engines have proven worldwide to widtstand a lot if installed properly.
I have one concern about these high hp numbers.
Which prop brings the power of the engine into thrust in an efficient way?

JOS

ptope

02-17-2005, 10:12 AM

Kevin_Richey

02-17-2005, 12:42 PM

well, we are getting a little closer to getting a sparrowhawk, and this monday, im going to be going to seattle with my partner and taking our first flight in a sparrow hawk.. ill document the experience on here for anyone wishing to read about it.. see ya next week..

Is Nick McClesky your partner?
I saw the Air Command gyro you posted for sale, and recognized it as being formerly owned by Leo Boyer.

ptope

02-17-2005, 04:04 PM

yes, nick mccleskey is my partner.. and yes that gyro was leo's, nick and nicks brother bought it from him a few years back.. how do you know him? want me to forward a message to him? he reads these posts every now and then, but he isnt currently a member..

ptope

02-18-2005, 06:08 PM

only 2 more days till the sparrowhawk adventure, ( can you tell im excited)... ;)

gab76

02-20-2005, 06:28 AM

I have a 97 Soob outback car that is now leaking anti-freeze/water. I may just call the dealership and inquire.

FYI, I am putting a Soob 2.5 on my Air Command tandem that I am building at Air Command and we are **** canning the Hirth. I am putting a planetary redrive on it too. Should be about to lift all the fatboys.

Greg

Texas Armadillo

02-23-2005, 05:15 AM