Letter from raphael

[RotorTom]

GOT THIS EARLY MORNING, JANUARY 3rd:

Notice on termination of co-operation to the attention of clients, suppliers, and authorities

Dear Madam, Dear Sir,

Please be informed that I terminated the co-operation with Mr Artur Trendak as well as any production of XENON by Raphaël Celier gyrocopters in Jaktorow-Kolonia 96-313 Poland.

Currently Mr Artur Trendak has no right to use my name or CELIER AVIATION brand.

I have also definitely terminated any technical supervision of gyrocopter produced by Mr Artur Trendak from December 13, 2011. Before, I tested all produced XENON type machines on ground and in the air, myself, which was proved by my signature placed on the left side of each tested machine. I also proceeded to any technical modifications that I considered necessary.

Starting from December 13, 2011, XENON type gyrocopters and other machines made by Mr Artur Trendak are produced, tested and serviced at his own responsibility and with no relation to myself. I also inform you that I did not authorize Mr Artur Trendak to use any of my exclusive right, including copyright, know-how or use my identifications or projects. Should Mr Artur Trendak and his enterprise AVIATION Artur Trendak refer to any relation with myself or use my rights, it shall be illegal and prosecuted by any possible legal means.

I would like to thank you for our co-operation and the trust you put in me so far. I always gave priority to your security. It will be still possible in the nearest future to order XENON by Raphaël CELIER gyrocopters, yet the new production is transferred in a new building near Warsaw center.

Should you be interested in ordering XENON by Raphaël CELIER gyrocopters, thanks to communicate by mail to raphael@celieraviation.eu and to consult the website www.celieraviation.eu for fresh information.

Best regards,
Raphaël CELIER

[PTKay]

Tom, I kindly remind you of our discussion few months ago.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=410941&highlight=Trendak#post410941

I already then (March 8th, 2011, 04:31 PM), in public, informed everybody about the legal situation:

Tom, I appreciate your comments.
You made your own experience with Xenon and Raphael first hand.

I am far from "making Raphael a saint".
What I know is, that within 5 years of his and Artur activity in Poland
they sold over 125 aircraft, 97% of it for export, and created almost 40 jobs
in the region where I live. And this is something in the time of crisis.

BTW: look carefully on the certificate he published.
The commercial name of the company is "Celier Aviation",
but followed by the name of Artur Trendak, and his home address
in Michałowice, not the factory address. (Everybody can check it.)

I checked the legal situation, and formally the company is just
the personal business of Artur Trendak, from his home address.

I don't know the formal relations between Raphael and Artur,
I just read the certificate, and Raphael, besides his name in the logo,
has nothing to do with it.


It would be interesting to me to know, when you were buying your Xenon,
who was selling it to you, who signed the papers then?

[RotorTom]

As far as I know I bought the Xenon from Raphael. His "union" with Artur came later.

[Vance]

[QUOTE=PTKay;455595]What I know is, that within 5 years of his and Artur activity in Poland
they sold over 125 aircraft, 97% of it for export, and created almost 40 jobs
in the region where I live. And this is something in the time of crisis.

Hello Paul,

I am a business enthusiast and those numbers don’t make any sense to me.

A man year is approximately 2,000 hours so 40 employees gives a company 80,000 hours to spend per year.

125 aircraft in 5 years is 25 aircraft per year.

80,000 hours divided by 25 is 3,200 hours per aircraft.

The website advertises a Xenon for $50,000.

I feel it has at least $20,000 worth of parts in it.

A poor markup might have the labor cost in the Xenon at $20,000 so that leaves $6.25 per hour.

In my experience the cost of labor is at least twice what their hourly rate is so that would have the workers making $3.13 per hour.

Will a person in Poland work for $3.13 per hour or $6,250 per year?

That works out to around 2.4 euro per hour or 4,800 euro per year.

Thank you, Vance

[bones]

[QUOTE=PTKay;455595]What I know is, that within 5 years of his and Artur activity in Poland
they sold over 125 aircraft, 97% of it for export, and created almost 40 jobs
in the region where I live. And this is something in the time of crisis.

Hello Paul,

I am a business enthusiast and those numbers don’t make any sense to me.

A man year is approximately 2,000 hours so 40 employees gives a company 80,000 hours to spend per year.

125 aircraft in 5 years is 25 aircraft per year.

80,000 hours divided by 25 is 3,200 hours per aircraft.

The website advertises a Xenon for $50,000.

I feel it has at least $20,000 worth of parts in it.

A poor markup might have the labor cost in the Xenon at $20,000 so that leaves $6.25 per hour.

In my experience the cost of labor is at least twice what their hourly rate is so that would have the workers making $3.13 per hour.

Will a person in Poland work for $3.13 per hour or $6,250 per year?

That works out to around 2.4 euro per hour or 4,800 euro per year.

Thank you, Vance

Well Vance ill simplify it for you, when they started out over 5 years ago, they had 5 employees, and surprise as they grew they needed more workers, so it all ended up as to a total of about 40 now.
When i was there a few years ago, the jobs viared from assembly, to guys working part time cleaning the floor, polishing machines, and helping package for freight ect, but they are all jobs the factory created.
I do not know the exact details now though.

As far as I know I bought the Xenon from Raphael. His "union" with Artur came later.

My understanding of it was Artur was the financial backer from the start, hence the reason the move to Poland,I might be wrong though

[Vance]

[QUOTE=Vance;455709]

Well Vance ill simplify it for you, when they started out over 5 years ago, they had 5 employees, and surprise as they grew they needed more workers, so it all ended up as to a total of about 40 now.
When i was there a few years ago, the jobs viared from assembly, to guys working part time cleaning the floor, polishing machines, and helping package for freight ect, but they are all jobs the factory created.
I do not know the exact details now though.


Thank you Mark,

I feel it is a challenging business and I marvel at their apparent success.

How many are they producing annually now?

In my experience having manufacturing, marketing and warehousing all in the same location escalates the challenge.

I am not clear on the distribution path. Is there a true dealer network with inventory on the floor and local customer support with parts and service?

I don’t know what a worker expects to be paid in Poland and what sort of taxes and benefits are attached.

Thank you, Vance

[PTKay]

Vance,

you forgot in your calculations the topics you might have overlooked
on the Celier Aviaton page over the years.

This was not just production company but an R&D venture.

You might have remembered from the old web site a helicopter under the wraps
present there for over 2 years and then disappearing.
Yes, almost 2 years of R&D and no product.
Also you might remember the XeWing, a Xenon cabin with a folding wing on top.
Just one build, many modifications, flight tested and eventually sold as a running
project...
Also kindly remember the almost 2 years of the KISS adventure...

And these are the ones I know about, there might have been many others
under-way, of which we will never get any hint...

I dare to guess, the split we are witnessing now is on the production vs. R&D line.

As Mark suggests Artur might have been behind the story with financing,
and he might just have been fed up with financing R&D instead of increasing
production and expanding marketing.

As I said, just my guess.
We shall wait an see.

[PTKay]

I don’t know what a worker expects to be paid in Poland and what sort of taxes and benefits are attached.


Vance the average salary net to the employee in Poland is $10.000 per year,
the total cost for the employer, including taxes and mandatory insurance
(full health, social, unemployment) is double, app. $20.000 per year.
This is the country average which includes top managers earning millions and
floor workers earning the dimes...

But many of the jobs in this case, as mentioned by Mark, were
part time, with lower rates and lower taxes, like e.g. students, were the
government pays all the insurance.

Little different than US....


In my experience the cost of labor is at least twice what their hourly rate is so that would have the workers making $3.13 per hour.

Will a person in Poland work for $3.13 per hour or $6,250 per year?

That works out to around 2.4 euro per hour or 4,800 euro per year.


So, yes, from what you read above, they almost will.
I have a student (almost finished, 5th year engineering study) working for me now
paid €3 per hour and very satisfied. Costs me altogether just €3.5/h.

When permanently employed after leaving the school will cost me €6/h... :(

[RotorTom]

I do not know the form the company will now take ... but when I dealt with them ... the system worked like this:

1. Sales were made through US Distributors. Distributors received shipments, had the DAR inspections done and issued Airworthiness Certificates.
2. Gyro then shipped to or picked up by customer.
3. If you had an issue you would call the distributor, who would call Raphael, and Raphael would say he had never heard of that problem before and it must be the customer's fault.
4. Then he would offer to sell you parts.
5. You then waited months for parts and paid exorbitant shipping costs.

[Vance]

Vance,

you forgot in your calculations the topics you might have overlooked
on the Celier Aviaton page over the years.

This was not just production company but an R&D venture.

You might have remembered from the old web site a helicopter under the wraps
present there for over 2 years and then disappearing.
Yes, almost 2 years of R&D and no product.
Also you might remember the XeWing, a Xenon cabin with a folding wing on top.
Just one build, many modifications, flight tested and eventually sold as a running
project...
Also kindly remember the almost 2 years of the KISS adventure...

And these are the ones I know about, there might have been many others
under-way, of which we will never get any hint...

I dare to guess, the split we are witnessing now is on the production vs. R&D line.

As Mark suggests Artur might have been behind the story with financing,
and he might just have been fed up with financing R&D instead of increasing
production and expanding marketing.

As I said, just my guess.
We shall wait an see.

I didn’t forget them Paul, I was trying to keep it simple.

I marvel at their apparent success.

In my experience with the budget process for a motorcycle manufacturer which I feel is a similar business involves lots of choices and the driver is sales. I feel that everything needs to be sales driven and when the sales are unknown and the margins are marginal it makes growth even more difficult.

In my experience the balance between cheap labor and expensive experienced craftsmen is particularly challenging to optimize.

The sales won’t happen if the product is too expensive. Customer support and the future of the company will suffer with slim margins so tracking and reducing costs is critical.

Tom’s experience and perspective is not unusual.

R&D was a part of the budget and needed to be justified with potential sales.

Engineering change orders, warrantee expense, customer service, parts supplies, accessory development, marketing, advertising, sales and distribution all require some percentage of the sales.

The manufacturing process itself is very complex with supply chain, tooling, line down time and labor costs to consider.

It is a delicate balance and most successful businesses in this country net around 5% of the gross so there is not much room for error.

I love business and continue to struggle to be confused on a higher level.

Thank you, Vance

[Fred Thomas]

I am Fred Thomas in Luxembourg and new to this forum. My interest is in the Xenon GIII. I have over 600 hours of flying various types of microlights all over Europe and did around 9 hours training on an MT-03 earlier last year as a coneverting pilot. I found the MT-03 slow and full of vibration, plus uncomfortable in cold and wet weather. I also test flew a Calidus in Germany, which for my size was very cramped, although it performed well. Late last year I flew the Xenon GII and for me it was far superior to the others from many aspects.
The GIII looks even more impressive especially with the variable pitch prop. This aircraft just has to be a success in the long term. It is spacious, comfortable to fly, the controls are all in the right place and it can cruise too. A great combination and long may it continue.:wave:

[twistair]

I found the MT-03 slow and full of vibration

You're just unlucky with particular machine, Fred (welcome to the forum!).
MTOsport is practically same speedy as Xenon is and - of what I had a luck to fly - probably the most agile and pilot friendly. Open cockpit or enclosed cabin -just a choice of individual habits ;) Heated clothes make it very comfortable.

[PTKay]

;) Heated clothes make it very comfortable.

Sorry Alex, I couldn't resist:

heated gloves and heated clothes are really handy in
an open cockpit gyroplane especially when you want
to read a paper map or drink a cup of coffee
handed over to you by your passenger.. :)

I think, we should effectively stop comparing closed cabin,
side-by side machines with tandem open cockpit,
the same as we do not compare cars with motorcycles.

Motorcycles are certainly more agile and fun, but still
most people drive cars.

"Horses for courses" as Birdy says... :)

[twistair]

Sorry Alex, I couldn't resist:

heated gloves and heated clothes are really handy in
an open cockpit gyroplane especially when you want
to read a paper map


Wide of the mark, Paul :) When one prepares to fly open cockpit he should prepare his maps, coffee etc for the open cockpit.

I didn't try to compare enclosed cabin and open roost since I know the difference(s) quite well flying both breeds regularly =) I've just replied to Fred's disappointment with MTO.

[PTKay]

flying both breeds regularly =) .

You are a brave man, taking into consideration the climate. :)

Fly safe.

[twistair]

I just like these birds. And use to dress accordingly :D
Flying in an open cockpit is much more fun for me. When I'm in a cabin I feel myself like a part of the machine. Open cockpit feeling is completely different - you feel much more like free bird and a machine is just a small though necessary addition to your flying ;)

Первые полеты автожира MTOsport в Ð*оÑ�Ñ�ии - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE4XhW0Lh68)

[PTKay]

Really (n)ice!

:)

[Resasi]

A good distinction Alex. Flying is a passion that can be indulged in in a variety of ways and all of them bringing us great joy.

I did like the idea that one can remove the door on a Xenon which may well bring a more open cockpit feel while still not having to dress up to fly it.

Presently planning to downsize housing, and should that go well, have two potential contenders. The three seat Xenon or the Arrowcopter. The Xenons now seem to have time under their belt, and the more proven of the two designs, but the AC10 is still a wonderful machine to behold.

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Alex,

Open cockpit....LMAO!:lol: That's luxury!

This is an open cockpit.:drum:

Best In Flight Video Three Camera Positions 25th Nov 2011. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r-CBLy1KyY)

In all seriousness, I take your point and agree wholeheartedly.

Flying like a bird is what it's all about....:)

Cheers,

Mitch