Help with the FARs

[Vance]

I have been reading the Federal Aviation Regulations and as is often the case I am having trouble making sense out of it.

What rules, if any is a sky dive operation at an uncontrolled airport breaking if they don’t talk on the radio and don’t fly the pattern?

Thank you, Vance

[helipaddy]

Hi Vance
Here's the link for the FAA AC regarding Parachute Operations:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%20105-2D.pdf


Can you be a bit more specific regarding the question? Is the question in the Commercial written test?

Paddy

[bryancobb]

Vance,
At an uncontrolled airport, the controlled airspace begins typically 700' above the surface. Below that, it is Class G. In part 105, pilot communication is REQUIRED with ATC, before letting jumpers out because they are in controlled airspace when they exit.
Now shift gears to the plane and jumpers' behavior in the vicinity of the airport related to communications.

Most uncontrolled airports that have jump ops have a very LOOSE agreement with the Jump operator. Because revenue is at stake and profit margins are very small, and typical jump planes are VERY costly to fly, they are usually given LOTS of lattitude. Steep short field takeoffs, dives into a straight-in landing, and almost no communication are typical. No FAR's are being violated.

If a pilot is away from his home airport and will land at an airport with jump ops, you should be vigilant and give way to all jumpers at all times. Also be aware that it is no legally required to do a traffic pattern or communicate with local traffic.

[Vance]

Hi Vance
Here's the link for the FAA AC regarding Parachute Operations:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%20105-2D.pdf


Can you be a bit more specific regarding the question? Is the question in the Commercial written test?

Paddy

Hello Padraic,

To be more specific I had a jump plane flown by the jump operations owner who was not talking on the radio come within 150 feet of The Predator as he aborted a landing as I was taking off from a stop and go.

I reported that I was doing stop and goes and closed pattern on crosswind, downwind base and final. It was perhaps my 4th stop and go. I heard a noise behind me as I climbed out and turned cross wind and when I looked around he was climbing and turning very steeply inside me.

I recently had one of his pilots who is no longer working there cross the hold short line to take off as we were on short final. That one used the radio.

I had a talk with him after this most recent experience and he seemed unconcerned and unwilling to change his approach and communication. He did apologize for turning inside me but would not agree change his habits.

He was training his new pilot at the time.

I am not his only near miss and his operations are a topic of conversation during hangar flying at that airport.

I find his actions and attitude hazardous and would like to change his behavior. I have not flown into this airport very often because of his operations.

I was flying a wide pattern to give his jumpers who land just north of the runway plenty of clearance.


Thank you Brian,

You came up with the same answer I did.

Thank you, Vance

[JEFF TIPTON]

Subpart B—Operating Rules



§ 105.13 Radio equipment and use requirements.

(a) Except when otherwise authorized by air traffic control—

(1) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, in or into controlled airspace unless, during that flight—

(i) The aircraft is equipped with a functioning two-way radio communication system appropriate to the air traffic control facilities being used; and

(ii) Radio communications have been established between the aircraft and the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the affected airspace of the first intended exit altitude at least 5 minutes before the parachute operation begins. The pilot in command must establish radio communications to receive information regarding air traffic activity in the vicinity of the parachute operation.

(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft used for any parachute operation in or into controlled airspace must, during each flight—

(i) Continuously monitor the appropriate frequency of the aircraft's radio communications system from the time radio communications are first established between the aircraft and air traffic control, until the pilot advises air traffic control that the parachute operation has ended for that flight.

(ii) Advise air traffic control when the last parachutist or object leaves the aircraft.

(b) Parachute operations must be aborted if, prior to receipt of a required air traffic control authorization, or during any parachute operation in or into controlled airspace, the required radio communications system is or becomes inoperative.

§ 105.15 Information required and notice of cancellation or postponement of a parachute operation.

(a) Each person requesting an authorization under §§105.21(b) and 105.25(a)(2) of this part and each person submitting a notification under §105.25(a)(3) of this part must provide the following information (on an individual or group basis):

(1) The date and time the parachute operation will begin.

(2) The radius of the drop zone around the target expressed in nautical miles.

(3) The location of the center of the drop zone in relation to—

(i) The nearest VOR facility in terms of the VOR radial on which it is located and its distance in nautical miles from the VOR facility when that facility is 30 nautical miles or less from the drop zone target; or

(ii) the nearest airport, town, or city depicted on the appropriate Coast and Geodetic Survey World Aeronautical Chart or Sectional Aeronautical Chart, when the nearest VOR facility is more than 30 nautical miles from the drop zone target.

(4) Each altitude above mean sea level at which the aircraft will be operated when parachutists or objects exist the aircraft.

(5) The duration of the intended parachute operation.

(6) The name, address, and telephone number of the person who requests the authorization or gives notice of the parachute operation.

(7) The registration number of the aircraft to be used.

(8) The name of the air traffic control facility with jurisdiction of the airspace at the first intended exit altitude to be used for the parachute operation.

(b) Each holder of a certificate of authorization issued under §§105.21(b) and 105.25(b) of this part must present that certificate for inspection upon the request of the Administrator or any Federal, State, or local official.

(c) Each person requesting an authorization under §§105.21(b) and 105.25(a)(2) of this part and each person submitting a notice under §105.25(a)(3) of this part must promptly notify the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the affected airspace if the proposed or scheduled parachute operation is canceled or postponed.

§ 105.17 Flight visibility and clearance from cloud requirements.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft—

(a) Into or through a cloud, or

(b) When the flight visibility or the distance from any cloud is less than that prescribed in the following table:
Altitude Flight visibility
(statute miles) Distance from clouds
1,200 feet or less above the surface regardless of the MSL altitude 3 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 2,000 feet horizontal.
More than 1,200 feet above the surface but less than 10,000 feet MSL 3 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 2,000 feet horizontal.
More than 1,200 feet above the surface and at or above 10,000 feet MSL 5 1,000 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 1 mile horizontal.

§ 105.19 Parachute operations between sunset and sunrise.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from an aircraft between sunset and sunrise, unless the person or object descending from the aircraft displays a light that is visible for at least 3 statute miles.

(b) The light required by paragraph (a) of this section must be displayed from the time that the person or object is under a properly functioning open parachute until that person or object reaches the surface.

§ 105.21 Parachute operations over or into a congested area or an open-air assembly of persons.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or into a congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or an open-air assembly of persons unless a certificate of authorization for that parachute operation has been issued under this section. However, a parachutist may drift over a congested area or an open-air assembly of persons with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if that parachutist is at a sufficient altitude to avoid creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) An application for a certificate of authorization issued under this section must—

(1) Be made in the form and manner prescribed by the Administrator, and

(2) Contain the information required in §105.15(a) of this part.

(c) Each holder of, and each person named as a participant in a certificate of authorization issued under this section must comply with all requirements contained in the certificate of authorization.

(d) Each holder of a certificate of authorization issued under this section must present that certificate for inspection upon the request of the Administrator, or any Federal, State, or local official.

§ 105.23 Parachute operations over or onto airports.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or onto any airport unless—

(a) For airports with an operating control tower:

(1) Prior approval has been obtained from the management of the airport to conduct parachute operations over or on that airport.

(2) Approval has been obtained from the control tower to conduct parachute operations over or onto that airport.

(3) Two-way radio communications are maintained between the pilot of the aircraft involved in the parachute operation and the control tower of the airport over or onto which the parachute operation is being conducted.

(b) For airports without an operating control tower, prior approval has been obtained from the management of the airport to conduct parachute operations over or on that airport.

(c) A parachutist may drift over that airport with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if the parachutist is at least 2,000 feet above that airport's traffic pattern, and avoids creating a hazard to air traffic or to persons and property on the ground.

§ 105.25 Parachute operations in designated airspace.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft—

(1) Over or within a restricted area or prohibited area unless the controlling agency of the area concerned has authorized that parachute operation;

(2) Within or into a Class A, B, C, D airspace area without, or in violation of the requirements of, an air traffic control authorization issued under this section;

(3) Except as provided in paragraph (c) and (d) of this section, within or into Class E or G airspace area unless the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace at the first intended exit altitude is notified of the parachute operation no earlier than 24 hours before or no later than 1 hour before the parachute operation begins.

(b) Each request for a parachute operation authorization or notification required under this section must be submitted to the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace at the first intended exit altitude and must include the information prescribed by §105.15(a) of this part.

(c) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, air traffic control facilities may accept a written notification from an organization that conducts parachute operations and lists the scheduled series of parachute operations to be conducted over a stated period of time not longer than 12 calendar months. The notification must contain the information prescribed by §105.15(a) of this part, identify the responsible persons associated with that parachute operation, and be submitted at least 15 days, but not more than 30 days, before the parachute operation begins. The FAA may revoke the acceptance of the notification for any failure of the organization conducting the parachute operations to comply with its requirements.

(d) Paragraph (a)(3) of this section does not apply to a parachute operation conducted by a member of an Armed Force within a restricted area that extends upward from the surface when that area is under the control of an Armed Force.

[JEFF TIPTON]

91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=4afb1d1679716feef7a3345acedd4a80&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.7

[JEFF TIPTON]

91.111 Operating near other aircraft.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight.

[bryancobb]

I reiterate, at an untowered field...

they don't have to talk, the airport manager lets them do as they please because they buy a lot of gas, the pilots are accustomed to being bitched at and usually let it go in one ear and out the other, and they ALWAYS work under HARD VFR conditions. Their pilots view it like "those little guys out for fun can adjust their flying around mine, I'm here making money!"

The FAA kind of looks away too because parachute operators usually piss off the other pilots everywhere they go, and the FAA is tired of hearing it. Unless a complaint includes a BLATANTLY UNSAFE AND RECKLESS ACT, if it's against an Ag' or parachute operator, forget getting any support.

[pancho]

91.111,(a) still applys and will be enforced if a formal written complaint is issued.
there are ways to make it extremely uncomfortable for folks who insist on endangering others.
Please keep it in mind also that there is no requirement for two way radio communication at airports in class G airspace. Nor is there any additional safety risk when proper traffic rules are adhered to. A radio is used all too often in place of our God given ocular detection devices. Also " there ought to be a law" mentality is the reaso that we are in the political mess we are in. So let's only take a case to the Feds when there is no other recourse.

[brett s]

Sounds like the pilots Vance is dealing with are a-holes unfortunately - a little courtesy on their part would go a long ways, regardless of what's legal.

I did some flying at an uncontrolled airport that was home to both a helicopter school & a skydiving operation (with their LZ on the airport grounds too).

The pilots there weren't a problem though - one of them actually was a part-time CFI for the helicopter school too which probably helped, everybody played by the rules & tried to be considerate of other pilots. So it all worked out ok...just a bit weird.

I still hated flying the pattern or even sitting on the ground with blades turning, always watching out for a chute in the wrong place.

[barnstorm2]

Maybe I am reading this wrong but Vance does not seem to have a problem with the jumpers, but with the JUMP PLANE.

That is a completely different bowl of noodles.

Vance do you have an FAA Safety Team Volunteer at your airport or that you know locally?

If not I can help you find one.

.

[Vance]

Thank you Jeff, as always you are a fountain of knowledge.

You seem to have reached a similar conclusion.

91.113 and 91.111a seem to be the only remotely applicable regulation.

Thank you for your perspective Brian, I suspect it is reality based.

Thank you Frank,

I concur with your observations.

I cannot imagine how to put pressure on this pilot to be more safety conscious.

I found that this experience and interaction took some of the joy out of an otherwise particularly lovely day of warm weather flying in a very nice corner of the world.

Thank you Stan,

I had a similar experience in my first hundred hours as pilot in command and it has caused me to generally avoid this particular airport.

I have some friends who hangar there, it is a long runway and there was a steady breeze straight down the runway. I have been trying to sharpen my engine out landing skills and during most of my flying there was no one in the pattern. I flew a wide pattern to five the skydivers plenty of room.

This person has been doing this for 22 years and as far as I know has not killed anyone yet.

The two closest airports to SMX where I am based have parachute operations Lompoc (LPC) and Oceano (L52) have parachute operations. They share the CTAF so I hear “jumpers away” a lot.

When I fly to San Luis Obispo I am listening to SBP ATC as I pass Oceano. I have no way to know when they are dropping skydivers. Their landing zone is several miles north of the airport on the beach. That is part of why I want to have a radio that will monitor a second frequency.

I feel if I don’t do anything but stay away I am not doing my part to promote aviation safety.

Thank you Bret,

I feel I didn’t approach him well because I was frightened by the proximity of his aircraft and got a good dose of adrenalin. I really wanted to knock him down and I am sure it was evident in my manner. I found his unwillingness to use the radio on approach inflamed me further. I am not sure I would have accepted his safety council well either so he may be a perfectly nice fellow that has gotten carless over the years.

Thank you Tim,

That is an excellent suggestion.

I go to as many of the FAST meetings as I can and know the couple in charge well.

I am trying to get back to my unfettered love of flying yet I don’t want to abdicate my responsibility to aviation safety.

It looks nice out so I think I am off to SBP in about an hour.

It is my fantasy that as the wheels lifts from the runway my attitudinal challenge will diminish with altitude.

Thank you, Vance

[bryancobb]

...Also " there ought to be a law" mentality is the reaso that we are in the political mess we are in. So let's only take a case to the Feds when there is no other recourse...

Here's the absolute best example of "y'all play nice now, and if you cain't do nuthin' but fight, I'm gonna make you come in the house." (What my Momma used to tell me)

I was a safety pilot for a rich arrogant friend who was working on his instrument rating. He was under the hood and under ATC control, shooting the ILS/DME RWY 1 into Rome Georgia (untowered field). It was a HARRRRD VFR DAY which brings out all kinds of hazards to a rich pilot with a " there ought to be a law" mentality. The skydive school was in full swing, as were the gyro guys, the ultralighters, and the helicopter flight school.

As you probably know, ATC provides absolutely NO separation service between IFR Aircraft and VFR Aircraft, on a VFR day. In plain English, This airport was BIZZZZ--ZZEEEEE and my rich friend thought he OWNED THE SKY there because he was talking to ATC. We had shot several approaches at different airports and ended them with a low approach and the missed. I had NO IDEA he was going to land at Rome and go take a leak.

On this approach, there were 10 chutes in the air, a diving jump plane, 2 gyros, a helicopter, and us. I was monitoring all of them and knew they were NO FACTOR to us doing the low approach we were on. When I said "RUNWAY NOT IN SIGHT, DO THE MISSED," He yanks the hood off and screams "WHAT HAVE YOU GOT ME INTO, I WAS LANDING?" After doing an aerobatic landing that included a 90 degree bank, he jumps out of the plane and runs over to the jump plane and threatens to CALL THE FAA and GET HIS LICENSE PULLED, while using words that would make a Sailor blush.

He said to the pilot "I'll have you know, I was on an ILS approach, this was my airspace." The old crusty jump pilot had about 20 jumpers, his boss, and all curious onlookers behind him. He reared his head back and laughed with GUSTO! Then he hocked a loogie on the ground about 6" from my rich friend's shoe and said, "Go right ahead. We've been doing this here since before you were born! And... It won't be the first time the FEDS have had to drive up here to straighten out an ass like you!"

The Feds were called, they straightened out the ass and they all lived happily ever after...
...until he called them ON ME for doing maintenance for hire in my barn without an A&P License.

Once again...The Feds were written, they came this time, and straightened out the ass by saying what I was doing was OK, and we all lived happily ever after, except he's NOT my friend any more.

Morals of THIS story. We all play in the air, let's get along. Work out your disagreements the way friends would. Keep the FEDS out of it at all cost. If you can't get what you want by being nice, chances are you are NOT gonna get it by being NOT NICE. Accept things that you can't change. The world doesn't revolve around you. One guy's "unsafe" is another's "fun," and one gals "reckless" is another's "free-spirit."

[Vance]

Nice story Brian.

My primary fear is that I don’t do something and someone gets hurt.

That is the reason for the post.

I don’t want to pull out my gun if it has no bullets in it.

On the other hand I would like him to change his behavior and I feel that his attitude is dangerous.

I have already flown to this airport less because of his presence.

This is my first encounter with him but not my first encounter with his company pilots.

I have friends based there and I feel it is a nice facility.

I learned from my stop and goes and Santa Maria and San Luis Obispo are a little busy for this sort of practice most days. Santa Barbara is not very accommodating, and Santa Ynez is a little short and very noise sensitive as is Oceano. Camarillo is way too busy.

I was successful at modifying an aerobatic pilot’s low level aerobatics along the shoreline and several pilots have thanked me for it. I am certain that threatening to send the stack of pictures we had of him coming out of the bottom of a loop directly toward us at 500 feet to the FAA influenced his behavior. I had bullets in my gun then and he could see them.

Thank you, Vance

[Jason O]

Hello Vance,
I understand your concern for your safety and the safety of others and it is good you want to do something about safety at that airport. From the wording below, it seems that you want to go about changing his behavior by blackmail. Since your first attempt at conversation failed, you feel your only option is load the "gun with bullets". I agree that this may be the quickest and most personally gratifying route (after all he did scare the crap out of you), but might you just try to fly to that airport more often, go to the airport meetings and bring up the subject and then listen to what others have to say (instead of saying what dirt can we get on him to threaten him with). Over time a very elegent solution might present itself and you will meet a lot of great people along the way including the pilot of the jump plane.........

or, it could just go all to heck on you and you end up trying to find dirt on him, but at least you tried.

Jason


Nice story Brian.

My primary fear is that I don’t do something and someone gets hurt.

That is the reason for the post.

I don’t want to pull out my gun if it has no bullets in it.

On the other hand I would like him to change his behavior and I feel that his attitude is dangerous.

I have already flown to this airport less because of his presence.

This is my first encounter with him but not my first encounter with his company pilots.

I have friends based there and I feel it is a nice facility.

I learned from my stop and goes and Santa Maria and San Luis Obispo are a little busy for this sort of practice most days. Santa Barbara is not very accommodating, and Santa Ynez is a little short and very noise sensitive as is Oceano. Camarillo is way too busy.

I was successful at modifying an aerobatic pilot’s low level aerobatics along the shoreline and several pilots have thanked me for it. I am certain that threatening to send the stack of pictures we had of him coming out of the bottom of a loop directly toward us at 500 feet to the FAA influenced his behavior. I had bullets in my gun then and he could see them.

Thank you, Vance

[barnstorm2]

I think Vance knows what I was talking about in my post but for those of you that do not...

This is a good situation in which to consult with a local FAASTeam Representative.

This is NOT bringing in an FAA lawman but rather a person trained in safety administration that has the tools to examine a situation and suggest improvements in safety culture.

Should a pilot still continue to practice unsafe behavior, and no resolution can be reached these representatives can then use the tools at their disposal to make changes that WILL stop unsafe behavior.

You can learn more here:http://www.faasafety.gov/about/mission.aspx

This sounds like a text-book perfect situation for a rep to be involved in IMHO.

.

[Vance]

Hello Jason,

Thank you for your excellent advice, I admire your maturity.

I have a lot of friends at that airport and most of them have a story about this pilot.

It is a very small and casual airport.

I used the NTSB search feature and went back 30 years and there have been very few accidents at that facility.

I then looked up mid air collisions in the last 30 years all over the country and I could not find one with a jump plane.

I then asked ATC at SMX to make a similar approach, a high base entry at 90 kts and found that I could see traffic remarkable well.

I suspect that I am overestimating the danger. It wouldn’t work if everyone was using that approach and not using the radio but if only one is using a non standard approach and only listening on the radio it is probably safer than I imagine.

I work so hard at entering the pattern correctly and making complete radio calls that I probably overreact to people not having that focus.

I fly there less often because of the jump operations and it feels a little like a dark cloud as I plan my flights.

I suspect this is not the end of my challenges with this pilot.

I did blackmail the aerobatic pilot and I knew from speaking to others that this was the only way to change his behavior. He still does stupid things, just not there.

Thank you, Vance

[Vance]

I agree Tim; the FAST team representative is an excellent resource.

I know the FAST team at Santa Maria well and I am often used for comic relief at the meetings.

It has also allowed me to become personal friends with several members of the Van Nuys FSDO and this has helped several times.

When I was at the Copperstate fly in I attended some Fast Meetings and they seem to have a particularly cooperative relationship with the FAA.

If someone has any desire to be a safer pilot I would think that they would respond to someone on the FAST team who only has airplane safety and the health of the aviation community in mind.

Thank you, Vance