Turn coordinators

[Colin Gibson]

Has anyone accidently ended up in the white stuff [clouds] and wished they had a 'Turn Coordinator [needle and ball]' as part of their instrument layout.
Colin

[rehler]

What good would it do? It would tell you if your turns were corridinated, but not if you were turning or not. I can't figure out what it would do to be of help to a pilot in a gyro.

[Al_Hammer]

I googled around and found this
>Now I've been taught that there is no way to maintain attitude and
>heading in clouds without reference to instrument flying instruments
>(ie: artifical horizon, turn indicator, heading indicator, etc.). Am I
>wrong here or is it possible to fly in clouds with just the a/s
>indicator, vsi, altimeter and magnetic compass?

... Add a turn needle & ball, & it's not that hard,
that's standard partial panel instument work every instrument student has
to learn. That's why the phrase "needle, ball, airspeed" came into the
lexicon. With a turn needle & ball, a/s, & altimeter, you should be able
to fly with no problem.

The needle and ball does more than indicate coordinated turns.

Another device you might check out is the E-gyro.
http://www.pcflightsystems.com/egyro.html
I did a 2 hour thermalling flight today with lots of steep turns. The
E-Gyro stayed solidly in agreement with my needle and ball and the real
horizon throughout the flight. I observed no drifting whatsoever.

I believe that a gyro(plane) will tend to stay upright if you pull back the stick to reduce airspeed and stay off the throttle. I've been told it will get you down out of the white stuff in a pinch.

[Colin Gibson]

Al
Thanks for that infomation. I'm currently deciding the instrument layout for my Sparrow Hawk that is being assembled by the National dealer here. There is room in the pod for another instrument after the radio and transponder is installed. I like the idea of having a 'Turn Coordinator' to inable a partial panel flight should the need arise.
Colin

[KenSandyEggo]

Yeah, a turn coordinator or slip-skid indicator is a good idea in a gyro. If I dig around, I probably have 5 of them in my hangar that I'll sell cheap.

I hope no one ever finds themselves in the soup in a gyro. That would have to be the worst planning and poorest judgment in the world.

[birdy]

You could always mount a 'cross hair' on the dash,for the gattli'n gun.

[GyroRon]

I was always told that this instrument would not work in a gyro for some reason.

I think a yaw string is all you need. If you fly into weather, just pull the stick back into a vertical decent. Gravity will take over and you will come straight down.

[KenSandyEggo]

I tried a slip-skid and it was useless. The piece of yarn is your best friend.

[Al_Hammer]

There are differences between a turn and slip indicator and a turn coordinator.
Thee turn coordinator senses rate of yaw AND rate of bank. The turn and slip senses rate of yaw only.
http://www.avweb.com/news/avionics/183238-1.html

If you are interested in staying in trim, then the yaw string can't be beat.
If you want an instrument that can help you maintain a level attitude in inadvertent IMC then the turn coordinator will definitely help, if you know how to use it. Its a gyro based instrument and will work just fine in a gyroplane. I suppose if you mounted it at the cg of the aircraft, then the ball might tend to not do much, but mounted on the panel , the ball will deflect when in a skid or slip, I'm pretty sure.
In any case, the rate of turn needle will always work because it senses yaw rate with a gyroscope.

The best indicator of all would be an attitude indicator, since it shows roll AND pitch.

There may be no excuse for ever getting into IMC conditions, but one day it just might happen.

[Harry_S.]

Or smoke...ay Birdy!!! :eek: ;)


Cheers :)

[Colin Gibson]

Birdy
The Gattling is out for me as there are no camels here giving me grief.
Al
Thankyou for your constructive reply. I accept a lot of pilots would look on a needle and ball as an unnecessary instrument however in mountainous areas as we have here, it may be possible for the safest plan to go amiss. I prefer to plan for the worst and hope it never happens. The instruments you have pictured, are they all powered from the electrical system ? [ No vacume pump needed ]
Colin Gibson

[Colin Gibson]

Ken
I read a report of a carefull pilot that was caught in a wave over a mountain and ended up in the soup along the way so it can happen.
Colin

[Al_Hammer]

Colin, I believe the turn coordinators are mostly electric,; not sure about the AI.

I found this comment by John Landry
The reason a turn and slip indicator doesn't work well on a gyro is because the airframe will always be in a slightly "rolled" atitude in flight due to the effect of propellor torque. As a result, the ball in a turn and slip indicator won't be centered when the airframe is in proper trim. A yaw string is immune from this problem.


Maybe that's why Ron was told they "wouldn't work."

[Heather Poe]

Colin,
I hope to purchase a Sparrowhawk kit this spring. This is what I am thinking of using for a turn coordinator (http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/elitemain.php). As a plus, the moving map will help me never to get lost.
Heather

[Colin Gibson]

Heather
That looks very expensive and will be doubling up on some intruments supplied in the Sky Dat that will be with your Sparrow Hawk kit. I will be allowing for a map reading GPS in the budget after my kit is flying to help in cross country navigation.
AL
Will the propellor still have the same Torque on the airframe when a tall tail is used as with the Sparrow Hawk? If not then the Turn Slip should work normally. I thought that was the idea of the tall tail, to counter propellor torque.
Colin Gibson

[Jerseywing]

The ball can be adjusted for S&L flight conditions and will look off when on the ground. But it's when you're in the air that it counts...

[Colin Gibson]

Thankyou Jerseywing.
That is what I figured but are still unsure whether the tall tail will provide the same torque effect.
Colin Gibson

[Al_Hammer]

Jerseywing, thanks for the info. Problem solved.

Colin, yes, the tall tail should reduce the torque effect, so you might not even need to adjust the centering. :)

[Colin Gibson]

Thanks AL.
Did you find out if the Attitude indicator you recomended was vacume driven or not?
Colin

[Al_Hammer]

Colin, no, I don't have any specific units in mind. May I suggest google. avionics, attitude indicator, etc.
Good luck and let us know what you find.

[birdy]

Yeh Harry,besides,instruments arn't worth jack sh*t if you can't see them,wich is wot happened in the smoke.

[Colin Gibson]

Birdy
What was there first, you or the smoke? If it was the smoke, then how did you end up in it? Or is this one of those badly planned things Kenny was talking about that should never happen.
That gyro of yours looks well kitted out with instruments, how about a picture and comentary on what you have there. I'm looking at the thumbnails with your posts.
Colin

[birdy]

The smoke rose up from under me Colin,was clear sky then noth'n,just smoke.You could have called it bad plan'n,but more like bad luck and 'sleep'n' on the job.I woz distracted by the chatter on the VHF too.

All them instruments are for decoration,except for the engine monitoring ones.I'm rarely look'n at em.

Thumbnails??????

[Chopper Reid]

Not much time to look at instruments when you're busy :) and if you do happen to look, you probably arent going to like what you see :) !!

Thumbnails Birdy is the pictures of your neat gyro up in the top left hand corner of your posts.

[ventana7]

Another option is a Garmin 196 or 296 GPS. Both do all the functons of the best moving map gps plus you can display a typical instrument cluster. I don't imagine it could give you slip/skid info but with altidude, airspeed and directional gyro indications you should be able to stay right side up.

As someone else here mentioned you should be able to reduce power and get into a vertical descent- as long as you regained airspeed well above ground you would be OK. (Assuming the clouds did not go to ground level).

Rob

[Al_Hammer]

Another option is a Garmin 196 or 296 GPS. Both do all the functons of the best moving map gps plus you can display a typical instrument cluster. I don't imagine it could give you slip/skid info but with altidude, airspeed and directional gyro indications you should be able to stay right side up.

By golly, you are right, ventana7.
Here is the inst page of the 296
http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap296/gallery/pt-GPSMAP296Large04.jpg

From Plane&Pilot article on Garmin GPSmap 296:
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2004/sept/tech_talk.html

The pseudo instrument page is similar to the one on the 196, and it’s just as capable, but the tripled processor speed won’t have much effect on instrument readouts. The horizontal- and vertical-position refresh rate is limited by the frequency of GPS updates, one per second. Garmin incorporates the information seamlessly, so the needles move smoothly, but it’s important to remember there is a slight delay from control input to instrument indication.

Also, keep in mind that what looks like an artificial horizon at lower left isn’t intended as a replacement in case your attitude indicator develops a bad attitude. The instrument is a pseudo rate-of-turn indicator with no pitch information. The pseudo panel page offers instruments more as individual backups rather than for full-panel replacement. In the unlikely event that you lose altimeter, airspeed, VSI, HSI and turn coordinator plus all nav information at the same time, the 296 could theoretically serve as a backup, but only with very gentle inputs and in soft IFR.

[gyromike]

There's always the solid state gyro setups like Control Vision's (http://www.anywheremap.com/pages/Section_AI.aspx). It's based on a PDA, so you can use it for more than just instruments.

They also have setups for moving map diaplays, and in-flight weather used on the same PDA.

http://www.anywheremap.com/Images/slices/sec_ai/AI-Shot.gifhttp://www.controlvision.com/Images/screenshots/awm02.gif

[Colin Gibson]

Wow
Now theres some good feedback. A Garmin 196 or 296 was going to be the GPS I will research for purchase after my kit is flying. At the moment I'm unsure what price they are here in New Zealand. I've only read about them in Aviation News.
My personal preference is not to be to reliant on a GPS for infomation and be still able to cope if it were to fail for any reason.
Artificial horrizons and Directional gyros are out as I believe they require Vacuum. I can make do with the magnetic compass for heading, a piece of string for a slip indicator, but still need the Needle part of the Turn Slip indicator.
This would be adequate for some Partial Panel instrument flying practises and the GPS fits nicely into the luxury catagory.
What say ye all to that for a plan?
Colin Gibson

[gyromike]

Colin,

If you need a vacumm source for instruments, you can always install an external venturi:
http://store.wagaero.com/aaaStoreFronts/Wagaero/Images/a-014-000.gif

This one was at Wag-Aero (http://store.wagaero.com/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-query-Show***EBF-BCB-169169169170178175-1443***-eProducts***-***shopping(directory)***.ws4d?shopping/results(S).html).

[Colin Gibson]

AL
I have just found an electrically powered Attitude Indicator, a Mid-Continent 4300
Cost nearly $4000 which is way out of the budget. That goes in the can't have everything bin.
Colin

[Colin Gibson]

Mike
I'm not intending to install vacuum instruments although I appreciate the info about the external supply.
Thanks.
Colin

[Al_Hammer]

Yet another choice. This one runs on an iPAQ
http://www.icarusinstruments.com/Media/PCEFIS.jpg
http://www.icarusinstruments.com/microEFIS.html
$1,495.00


Colin, an electric AI for around $1800 (RC Allen)
http://www.gyrohouse.com/catalog/items/item551.html

[Chopper Reid]

Best idea is to keep clear of the white stuff !!The turbulence that the white stuff can potentially generate isnt the place I would desire to be in a gyro !! Also, you seem to get the odd IFR aircraft operating in the area.:)

[Colin Gibson]

Chopper
Thats sound advice. I do however like the idea of being able to practise the Partial Panel tecnique. You never know when it might come in handy.
AL
I take it the $1800 is U.S. dollars. I will make some inquires here when I buy my radio and transponder.
Colin

[Jerseywing]

Keeping clear of the white stuff isn't always an option. There are no guarantees when it comes to the weather. It's best to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. You may leave your airport only to return and find it's not there anymore. Mother nature doesn't always play fair.
Meterology is the only job in the world where you can have < 60% accuracy record and not be fired.

[Colin Gibson]

Jerseywing
Thanks for that post. They are very well placed comments and are exellent encouragement. Thats the kind of example I want to follow with my flying.
Cheers
Colin

[KenSandyEggo]

"Keeping clear of the white stuff isn't always an option."

Guess I forgot that I live in Paradise, with no snow, hardly any rain and sunshine almost every day. :o

[Chopper Reid]

Not much white stuff around here either Ken. Unfortunately]
With a gyro, you have options a FW doesnt have ie, of being able to land anywhere at a very low forward airspeed so that allows you a way out to keep clear of the white stuff.
You read crash reports ever now and again of FW pilots entering the white stuff and becoming a crash report. Unless you have an instrument rating I would advise very stongly against even contemplating entering cloud to get back to your home airport.
I well realize there are no quarantees with the weather but you do have a nearly quaranteed flying machine in a gyro that can get you on the ground safely.

[Colin Gibson]

Chopper
I frequently have debates with people about the safety of gyrocopters and yet the same people would willingly get into a single engine fixed wing and fly over terain they can't land on. [But a gyrocopter can.]
Colin

[Chopper Reid]

:) I know the problem well Colin !!!
When I first started flying gyros one fellow who WAS a FW owner and pilot said I was a "tempory Australian", he stopped flying his C172 and sold it cause he got a "fright" and I am still flying a gyro and have over 4,500 hours up now and love flying gyros. The Fw fellow told all and sundry how dangerous gyros were yet got himself into a situation in a "stable" C172 that scared him enough to give away flying all together.
Keep debating Colin. :)

[Colin Gibson]

Brian
Usually by the time I'm finished with them I get a half convinced look. Its often followed up by a request to go up in my Sparrow Hawk when 'it' and my training is completed.
Colin

[Al_Hammer]

I saw this link on the glass cockpit thread...
http://www.para-aviation.ca/

http://www.para-aviation.ca/images/TriosmallCouleur.jpg

[Colin Gibson]

AL
I like the look of the attitude indicator and tried to download the manual but my old computer doesn't have the file path to open it. Can you tell me how they work. They look very light and compact. Do you know of anyone useing these instruments that may recomend them as doing everything advertised?
Colin