Where to get a Subaru 2.5?

[Jerry Carter]

AAI is testing a 2.5 Subaru on the Sparrowhawk, and I have been considering upgrading. I have been less than impressed with the offerings on the internet. One popular company in Houston, TX looked good, but they have over 125 complaints on file with the Better Business Bureau. :( AAI charges $3,000 to upgrade to the 2.5, but they will refund you $2,500 if you don't want any engine from them. Seems like I could probably find a decent 2.5 for around that amount. Any ideas out there on a good source for these engines?

[Brent_Brown]

Do you still get the redrive from AAI? if not your are not getting in the air for 2500.

[dae]

www.car-part.com. Checked this morning and there were over 7 pages of 2.5's, Years 2000 to 2005 starting at $600. David.

[Jerry Carter]

Yes, Brent, I've got everything I need from AAI except the engine. Thanks, David, I had not seen that site.

[KenSandyEggo]

http://members.aol.com/CCRInc/RebuiltSubaruEngines.html

Try them if you don't want any worries about the engine you're getting. They have an excellent reputation on all the Soob newsgroups, and I believe someone here got an engine from them after their RAF supplied one took a dump after about 30 hours and they wouldn't make good on it. I think AAI gets their engines from them.

[GyroRon]

I am sitting here and scratching my head trying to understand this.... If you buy a Sparrowhawk kit and decide you don't want a engine, they will supply with every part of the kit minus the engine for 2500$ less than normal. But if you want to go ahead with a normal kit and "upgrade" to the larger 2.5 Subaru it is a additional 3000$ over the standard kit price? Is this right?

If so, then why? It can't cost that much more for the EJ-25, maybe a few hundred bucks for the computer and wiring harness.

Last, from what I am hearing the Sparrowhawk is a bit underpowered. This is what people are saying that have flown in them and watched them at fly ins. It would seem they might as well make the 2.5 standard for the extra power.

[Jerry Carter]

Yeah, it certainly doesn't make financial sense to do the engine upgrade through AAI. I have no idea how they arrived at the $3,000 price. From the brief bit of browsing that I have done, a low to mid mileage EJ25 can be had for $2,500 or less. Maybe they don't want to encourage upgrades since they have little experiance with this engine. I flew with Terry Eiland in his Sparrowhawk, and I thought the EJ22 had plenty of power for takeoffs and landings at sea-level from a long, paved strip. I just feel like you might be better of with a little more power in reserve, especially if the cost differential is small.

[Chopper Reid]

"the Sparrowhawk being underpowered" ...sounds a little disappointing. I'm very interested in the SH but if it needs a 2.5 to drive it satisafctorily, then it sounds as if its either too heavy or has too much drag. Once you start needing more than 150 horses to pull something through the air, then ultralights start becoming cheaper.

[GyroRon]

Brian, I can not confirm or deny if a Sparrowhawk is under powered. I have yet to go for a ride in one. I wanted to go for a ride at Bensen Days but the cost for a short ride around the patch was ridculously high and I passed. It seemed to climb out good to me - from watching them fly from the ground - but this is just the "word on the street " so to say.

One thing I can tell you IS a fact... these machines are getting awfully darn expensive. go to Trade A Plane.com or Barnstormers.com and punch in a search for all aircraft priced at or slightly under 30 grand. The results will blow your mind... Everything from Cessna 172's to Loaded Kitfox experimentals to 200 mph Thorp T-18's to well you see where I am going.

[Dean_Dolph]

Yeah, Ron, gyros in some forms can get veeery expensive. But instead of bang for the buck how 'bout fun for the buck! I think most would agree the gyro wins every time!

[barnstorm2]

Ron, I got "lots" of time in (several hours) in RAF-converted sparrowhawks. Mostly Terry's machine.

I did NOT find it underpowered.

2-place machines that I have been in tend to drive like tanker trucks compaired to single places and I wonder if this is where the opinion is coming from. Also, I thought that the sparrowhawk I took my check ride in had less power than Terrys even though they were both the same type and engine. Probably, from dif. prop/rotor arrangements I dont know.

The only two places I have been in that seemed to have 'kick' were Steves black Parsons and Gary's Lycoming Twinstar. Both are high-horsepower TANDEM machines. The Hirth-powered Tandem Air Command at BDays seemed to have the least 'umph' of any 2-place I have ever flown. My 2-Place side by side (when the engine is actually running) seemingly has (slightly)more power than the sparrowhawks with 2-person equivlent weight but still does not perform as well as the twinstar or parsons.

A slug with wings can out fly my 447.

[barnstorm2]

Price: New / Used ?

Ron, I agree gyro kits are expensive but we have just come out with the 'second generation' of gyros (CLT) and with a smaller market and a poor used marked we have to pay off some R&D and pay for our 'exclusitivity' (small market).

I don't the gyro market compaires well to other aircraft because of our lower numbers. I see friends drop $13-$18K on a friggen PPC and only fly it 4 times a year cause of winds and hassle. Whats with that???

I am getting way off track... sorry..

What I wanted to say was.. If we get more gyro pilots/builders and build up a better market (used and new) EVERYTHING gyro will get cheaper, better, easyer.

Sparrowhawks are expensive but GBA needs to make a profit and the product is GREAT. I cringe at the thought of having to choke up $30k but then when I look at new car prices I cringe even more!

[Harry_S.]

Tim:

I believe the RAF AAI conversion will perform better than the AAI SH with the 2.2 due to the larger cabin of the SH.

Speaking of prices...while driving in town today, I was waiting at a red light and saw a beautiful black Chevy (logo on the tailgate) pick-em-up, that was on the turntable at a used car lot. It was gorgeous. It had very little grill garbage and the cab and glass was a smooth curve from the hood all the way to the bed sides. I don't know anymore about it other than the price that was on the windshield...$36,795.00. Now, that's much.

John or Ron probably can tell us what it was. It was beautiful, but what a price!!!


Cheers :)

[Chopper Reid]

[QUOTE=Harry_S.]Tim:

I believe the RAF AAI conversion will perform better than the AAI SH with the 2.2 due to the larger cabin of the SH.



This is my point Ron, the larger the cabin, more than likely it will create more drag. Also, the price is getting up and thats another reason a FW is becoming better value. I know that nothing fly's like a gyro but but cost eventually starts to become a factor, even fuel burn becomes a factor, a lot of kit aircraft use the Rotax 912 or Jabiru motors burning as little as 12 litres per hour or roughly, three gallons an hour. The SH is starting to get close to a C172 in fuel costs.

We need you Ron to buy a SH and see if you can get it to perform like your present gyro !! :) :)

[GyroRon]

I can understand companies got to turn a profit, but the way I look at it is this. I can buy two single place gyros and a TWO place Powered Parachute or Trike for what a two place gyro is beginning to cost. For me that second seat is not worth it.

Harry I think you must have saw a Chevy SSR. It is a new " truck " that looks like a Old truck from the 50's. If that is what you saw then yes it is expensive.

Truth be told, my Chevy truck had a 42 thousand dollar sticker price. Stuff is getting darn expensive these days. But my truck has heated leather seats, four wheel drive, a 285 horsepower V8, a 6 disc CD changer, seating for 5, every power option imaginable, and can tow a trailer loaded with 10 sparrowhawks! And it gets better MPG and will out run it too!......... not to mention Financing was easy with zero percent interest and insurance is not too bad. Biggest negative is the thing depreciates like crazy, something a Sparrowhawk is not going to do - as long as they keep jacking up the price as often as they have been! ;)

[CLS447]

I am probably gonna get a bigger engine for my 2 place. the 81 works great up to 1000 lbs gross. If I add another 200 lbs it just ain't cutting it.

Anyway I had Shar call Colorado Component Rebuild. They claim to be the sole supplier for AAI.

EJ-22 w/ Stratus cams & FI & ECU......$3250 no core

EJ-25 w/ cams & FI & ECU......$6500 no core.

They also told us that if the timing belt slips on the 25 it will munch valves the 22 will not.

I think I prefer the 22. Any thoughts on this?

[barnstorm2]

Chris,

when you say FI and ECU does that mean already converted for use on the gyro? Can I assume for that price the engine is ready to bolt on the gyro?

Any idea what they give you for a core and how much for shipping?

[Greg Lockhart]

"They also told us that if the timing belt slips on the 25 it will munch valves the 22 will not."

>I was told by several subaru mechanics that the belt/valve problem existed with the older Dual OverHead Valve engines but was solved when they went to the Single OverHead Valve design (on both the 2.2 and the 2.5).
>I ordered the 2.5 with my SparrowHawk and was told that it would be the SOHV design.
>I hope I was informed correctly.

Greg Lockhart

[CLS447]

Tim, FI= Fuel injected, ECU= that gold box with a million wires coming out of it to control everything. You would have to do the harness strip & of course wire the thing.

I would like to get the fuel injection setup & store it away for when I got nothing better to do than wire up that thing & change my fuel pumps. In the meantime I would get the RAF carb intake with the Holly & use the carb heat setup.

If I go 2.5 I may have to get a 4 bladed prop. I don't think I need that much HP($).
I need more info on both of the engines, that's what I am fishing here for!

[barnstorm2]

Chris, Yea, I have the original FI/ECU system off of the stock auto engine. I was wondering if the CCR engine you were talking about had already been converted for aircraft use.

[Friendly]

Kenny J, that was a great link you posted, I called Rick Johnson and talked quiet a while about the soob engines. He seems very sharp on the the soobs and he doesn't mind giving you his time to talk motors. I was very surprized at his prices. About $1700 for a 2.2 with a 3 year warranty. Thats a smoking deal.

[KenSandyEggo]

Mark, I wonder why Chris was quoted a higher price. Did you get a price without the FI and ignition? For my money, I would just get the basic block without the computer-brain and all the sensors and stuff and add an Airflow Performance FI system and 1 or 2 Electroair ignitions. That's simplicity and reliability at it's best. Actually, that's what I did after I removed the carb system. :p

I have never read anything negative about CCR in any of the Soob newsgroups. I'm glad to see Jim and AAI followed my recommendation. Hey! Where's my cut?? I should be on the payroll of Custom Aircraft Parts (exhaust manifolds), CCR, the Super-Trapp Company and Sportcopter. I've made each of those guys a small fortune by opening my mouth at the appropriate time. Not to mention Electroair and Airflow Performance who also made a few bucks through me. I shouldn't have to be riding my bike 4 miles to the beach every morning and collecting cans and bottles to survive. :rolleyes:

[barnstorm2]

Chris, what are you going to use as a re-drive?

Considering the cost and poor choices of soob redrives, I wonder if a 2.5 with direct drive might be the way to go?

[CLS447]

Funny you ask that Tim. Souza will make me an adapter plate to put my redrive on the 2.2 . I need more info & references before I go with that.

RAF redrive ? I would have to lower engine.....real pain! But prerotator would be easy.

AAI redrive?.... I would have to raise engine...not as bad.

I need more money.....I think I'll keep working while I think this through.

Don Parham likes the idea of the direct drive EJ-25. Please let me know if it works for you....ha ha.

[GyroRon]

Or..... make it back into the sweetest Single place Aircommand that ever was and go buy a nice used two place that has shown itself to be successful at flying two big people. Just my humble opinion... :)

[Jerseywing]

I don't think the Soob has the power curve for a direct drive. Driving the engine (with high load) at prop speed at the low end of the power curve will result in an ultimate Lbs/HP that is on the order of a Mack truck.

The issue with the RAF and SH is that you are pushing a brick through the air. Then add the fact that the prop efficiency is poor as it's partially blocked by the cabin.

I think the same cross section in a tractor config would be a different ballgame.
(Just a sorta educated guess)

[Mike Hook]

Chris and Tim

Here is a page that may have some info on the EJ-22 that may help you in your conversions. They have some data on fooling the computer.

Mike

[Greg Lockhart]

"They also told us that if the timing belt slips on the 25 it will munch valves the 22 will not."

>I was told by several subaru mechanics that the belt/valve problem existed with the older Dual OverHead Valve engines but was solved when they went to the Single OverHead Valve design (on both the 2.2 and the 2.5).
>I ordered the 2.5 with my SparrowHawk and was told that it would be the SOHV design.
>I hope I was informed correctly.

Greg Lockhart

Hello Again,
What I was told by the mechanics at the local Subaru shop was apparently incorrect. I talked to CCR today and was told that both the SOHV and DOHV 2.5's will sustain major damage in the event the belt slips or breaks. However, if the belt slips or breaks on a 2.2 there is no damage at all. So now I am very concerned about using a 2.5 on my SparrowHawk. I am wondering what the chances are that the belt will slip or break (on either engine). If that is something that happens "every once in awhile" I don't like the thoughts of destroying a $6000 engine (the forced landing would be bad enough to deal with). I am rethinking the possible benefits that the 2.5 would give me over the 2.2 (148 Hp vs. 165 HP). Will 17 HP make that much difference on takeoff from a short field at 800-900' elevation?
What do you guys think?

Greg Lockhart

[GyroRon]

I think the extra power is well worth the risk. The belts don't slip or fail very often, it is very rare to see one fail. As part of the regular maintance you change the belt every 60 miles or so, or perhaps every 500 hours on a gyro.... Either engine if the belt fails you will have a engine out unless it just slips and then the engine would run poorly if at all.

[animal]

Or..... make it back into the sweetest Single place Aircommand that ever was and go buy a nice used two place that has shown itself to be successful at flying two big people. Just my humble opinion... :)
I agree there Ron, I still drool everytime I watch the ROC. video, of the "BEAST" in flight. btw Ron I will be sending you a copy of that Video soon, I had to get another VCR to make copys with.

If I ever sell My Scorpion helicopter I would want a gyro like the BEAST.that was one bad Gyro.