Just brought home my first Gyro!

[Thechap]

Well, it finally came together. After a year of decision making and searching, I finally found the Gyro I was looking for. It is a 1999 Air Command with a 503 Rotax. The aircraft has a little over 85 hours. It even came with it's own customized trailer. I have to admit, the owner Bob Grove was great. He spent about four hours last night with my wife and I explaining the Gyro in detail and assisting in loading the Gyro. I want to say to Mr. Grove Thank You.

Now, I need to get in touch with Mr. Burgess and get training with him again. Also, the Gyro is locked up in my garage and I WILL not fly it until Mr. Burgess gives the go ahead.

I posted a couple of pictures and comments are welcome.

Bryan

AKA: TheChap

[Penguin]

Congratulations, Bryan!
That's a mighty sweet looking ride.
You are to be commended for recognizing the need for training.
I've been down that path over a long period of time and, looking back on it, have enjoyed it enormously.
Now that I'm flying regularly, I still make a list before flying.
I itemize the things I'm dissatisfied with from the last flight and at least one thing to try.
I never go up and just ride around - I always try to learn something and evaluate how I'm doing.
Best to you and please do share your experiences with us!
Larry

[Gyro_Kai]

Congratulations. You will not regret starting this adventure.

Kai.

[SideKick]

Brian,
Welcome to the Air Command Low Rider Family. I have always liked that Gyro even before Bob bought it and was just flying it once in awhile for the previous owner. You will really enjoy it I'm sure. Cliff Collins called me today to tell me that you had bought it. I hope you can get in enough of time with Chris in the next few weeks to be ready to solo by the time Larry's Flyin comes up next month. Just made my hotel reservations today, look forward to seeing you there.
Paul

[Minnesota_Mike]

CONGRATULATIONS to you Brian...!

I know your patience has paid off in waiting for the "right" machine....it certainly looks like you have a really fine machine there.
Your training with Chris will complete the deal...he's excellent and patient too....you'll have a blast with him.
Your best day is yet to come...sign off.

Make sure you have some one ready to snap a few photos when the moment arrives...you won't want to miss that shot for your scrap bookl..!

Have fun and keep us up to date...we all live vicariously through each other in this sport (because we'd do it all again just to live that thrill..!)
:)

M-M.

[GyroRon]

Modify the gyro to centerline thrust while you wait for training.

[CLS447]

Ron, I was wondering who was going to be first at "warning" him. You won !

[Thechap]

And what do I need to do to make it center line thrust? Thanks,

Bryan

[John Stahl]

I was wondering the same thing Chris

[SideKick]

The non centerline thrust is only one concern. Bob sold it to him with Dragon Wings.

[John Stahl]

here is a photo of a air command that has been converted to center line thrust

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28439&highlight=center+line+thrust

[Scary Gary]

I thought about saying something. But then I thought, who am I to say.
Looks real good.

[Timchick]

Your instructor should teach you the differences between a centerline thrust gyro and and one with a high thrustline like yours and what the different flight characteristics and hazards are. Don't skimp on training.

[gyrojake]

Well I'm not to bright nor do I know much about gyros. But If that was mine I would Flip the motor over 180 degrees ,can't tell in pic but would also set the gear box down, get a set of Sky wheels or old Rotor Hawks with solid leading edge or the Extruded rotors I believe Pheonix now sells and I would raise the seat three to four inches plus the mast should be about 6 feet 6 inches in lenghth. If you do this you will have a nice flying gyro.
If you leave it as is,a good pilot could fly it and make it look good. Lite rotor system and high thrust = OUCH for a newbie. Good luck and be safe.

~~JAKE~~

[Dirtydog]

Thechap : Looks good guy. I guess the work is never finished....

[Vance]

It looks to me like a very nice gyroplane Brian, and such low time!

Chris Burgess is an excellent instructor, I have learned a lot from him.

I have no direct experience with an Air Command gyroplane. Dennis Fetters, the designer of the Air Command you have purchased, feels that light blades lower the center of gravity compared to the thrust line enough to be problematic. The blades it was designed for, Sky Wheels are fiberglass and much heavier than the Dragon Wings but no longer manufactured and can be difficult to find in good condition. They are known to fly very well.

You can probably sell your Dragon Wings for near the cost of some heavier blades.

In my opinion the other modifications suggested will make her a safer more forgiving gyroplane.

Thank you, Vance

[Thechap]

So, 1st off thanks to everyone for their replies. I need to make this thing safe for me to fly! Get rid of the Dragon Wings and put what other blades on it? I'm not into flipping the engine over, ect. because I really like the way my Command looks. BUT, safety first! Can anyone help?

Bryan

"Off to spread Justice for those ill prepared"

[Midget 1]

Bryan, that's a good looking project; should have great time learning to fly. I too bought a low rider Air Command last Nov and have completed some redesign to improve Pitch Stability. The issue is Dynamic Pitch Stability; not simply where is the thrust line relative to the CG. There is the need to hang test your bird and see where you are at and then decide what changes you might want to make if any. I opted not to raise the seat but then I only weight 165lbs. All the other ideas are worth study. Regardless, proper training is the key to what not to do in any gyro. See my recent posting in General Discussion on Air Command Remake. Art

[LARRYEBOYER]

Bryan. Would you measure the legnth of your mast for me. I am working on a CLT aircommand frame and have to replace the mast.
Also, congrats on your purchase. That is a good machine. I know Bob well.
Sidekick.Looking forward to seeing you at the Mifflin County Rotors and wings flyin August 15th.Hope you are well.

[Timchick]

I'm not into flipping the engine over, ect. because I really like the way my Command looks.

Unfortunately, there are a number of pilots who had that same attitude who are no longer with us. People like Jake who are giving you advice on what changes will make your gyro safer do so with your safety in mind. You can ignore them and become a statistic or listen to what they are saying and learn why those changes will make it safer. Your low rider, high thrust line gyro was successfully flown by a lot of pilots but there were also quite a few pilots who were not so lucky. Can you learn to successfully fly your high thrust line gyro and learn to react fast enough when it's trying to kill you? Maybe, maybe not. Making some of the suggested modifications will greatly increase your chances.

[Passin' Thru]

I'm not into flipping the engine over, ect. because I really like the way my Command looks. BUT, safety first! Can anyone help?

Bryan, I too love the looks of that gyro, I always have. BUT are you going to sit around and look at it, or fly the danged thang?

Here on this forum you have available the advantage of many years of experience. We all want to help you have a safer machine. If you don't heed it, you are one dumb sucker!:D

Gyrojake sez: Well I'm not to bright nor do I know much about gyros.

... Jake, your modesty is downright overwhelming!

[CLS447]

Bryan, you 've heard this stuff about the RAF gyro also haven't you ?

Would you ever take a ride in one of them ??

[Thechap]

Okay guys I am listening. I want to make this thing safe to fly. I just wished I had known what to look for when buying.

So, where do I start? Do I call Air Command and ask what it will take to make this thing safe to fly? How about some of you Air Command owners/flyers give me some suggestions on what to do. What type of blades should I be looking for? What can I get for my 23 foot Dragon Wings?

Oh hell, I am all confused. There goes tonight! I just wanted to come home and polish the blades. Hey guys, if I change my mind and decide to buff the blades, what should I use and is there a secret.

Thanks in advance!

Bryan

[Timchick]

Bryan,
I'll try to post some photos of Air Commands that have been modified. If you modify your gyro to get it closer to center line thrust you should still be able to use the Dragon Wing rotor blades.

Here's Greg Spicola flying his modified Air Command at the Bensen Days flyin. This Air Command has Dragon Wing rotor blades:

YouTube - ‪Greg Spicola flying his gyrocopter at Bensen Days 2007‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ux2qHtWNXQ)

[Penguin]

Just to stimulate some conversation, if the only thing that changed that resulted in this being a high thrust machine was changing to a lightweight rotor, couldn't that be remedied by a longer mast and/or a larger (and thus heavier) rotor?

[Timchick]

Just to stimulate some conversation, if the only thing that changed that resulted in this being a high thrust machine was changing to a lightweight rotor, couldn't that be remedied by a longer mast and/or a larger (and thus heavier) rotor?

It had a high thrust line with heavy rotors. Replacing them with lighter rotors makes it worse.

[PW_Plack]

Bryan, I'm sorry you had to hear these concerns after you'd already bought the machine, but unfortunately, that's when you asked. It was the behavior of this machine's original configuration that almost got gyros complete outlawed in the UK, and prompted the famous Glasgow University study often quoted here on the forum.

Some have pointed to the lack of training documented for many of the pilots who died in these machines, and that's a reasonable point of argument, but there have also been lots of untrained or marginally trained pilots who survived flying in more pitch-stable gyros.

When Mom used to see us playing rough she'd say, "Sure - it's fun until somebody gets hurt!" The risks involved here are not like the ones we take to get heart bypass surgery or chemotherapy. These risks are associated with a recreational activity, which means they're completely optional. Recreational flying will more fun if you make it safer.

I did the calculations on an Air Command low-rider. Changing from 25' Dragon Wings to 25' Sport Rotors only raises the CG about 0.3 inches, and that's best case with the longer "Super Thruster" mast. I suspect part of the difference people observe with heavier rotors on this machine has to do with how fast they lose and recover RPM when things do get light in the seat.

Air Command sells a kit with all the parts needed to convert this machine to the current configuration. It retails for $2250, and there are folks who say they've done the conversion themselves for about 15% of that cost in materials. But if you aren't skilled at fabrication and/or need drawings and support, the factory deal may be the way to go.

I've tried to eyeball a side-view of the post-2001 "High Command" machines that claim to be centerline thrust, and calculate the distance of the major masses from a datum line running through the prop hub. It appears to me the factory set-up actually puts the thrustline below CG, perhaps to account for the optional aux fuel tanks, which put more drag and another 30 pounds very low on the airframe.

You need advice and help from people who've actually done the conversion to decide how to proceed.

[DennisFetters]

I have an idea. Instead of hearsay, why not lets post the facts again, and just let the numbers speak for themselves, so the guy can make an educated decision;

Over many years, there have been people inside and outside of the forum that have been spreading misleading information concerning the accent rate of the Air Command gyroplanes. They throw numbers around without the facts behind them, intentionally trying to mislead people into a false conclusion that the Commander gyroplanes were dangerous and deadly to anyone flying them. When people do this, they are misleading you, in fact, it’s the same as lying to you.

What do you think about a person that is trying to intentionally mislead you by not presenting the full facts? I won’t ever stand for it, and why should you? If these people have mislead you all these years about one thing, then what else have they not been completely honest about?

In my constant effort to correct history, I have went through every listed death involved in a Commander gyroplane on the FAA data base, and created a summarized report as to the pertinent information involved in each of the 25 cases listed, and the circumstances behind as to why the pilot crashed. After all, there is a big difference between an aircraft that crashes due to poor flying characteristics, and aircraft that were flown by unqualified people with inadequate training, or even no training at all.

This reports shows the following pertinent information of the pilots competence level, and it forms an unquestionable pattern that none of these 25 events were the fault of the aircraft whatsoever, and all could have been avoided if just basic gyroplane trading would have been completed, except in two cases where the pilots crashed during incapacitation from heart attacks, and one case where the pilot was incapacitated from ice buildup over his eyes and face.

I typed this report by hand, so if anyone finds an error, or knows of other accidents that can be added, or can add additional information to any of these events, please contact me. Here is a summery breakdown of the pilot competence in the 25 reports;

How many of the pilots were Rotorcraft Rated:................None
How many of the pilots are confirmed no training:.............7of 25
How many of the pilots may not have had training:...........10 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 1 hours training:......1 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 2 hours training;......3 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 3 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 5 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 6 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 8 hours training;......1 of 25
How many of the pilots had more than 8 hours training;.....0 of 25
How many of the pilots were killed for other reasons;........3 of 25

The highest time pilot had 23 total hours in type, and was killed showing off beyond his ability during a sales demonstration. This list indicates that as many as 17 out of these 25 pilots probably didn't have any training.

As you can see, the pattern is clear. None of these people had enough training, or no training at all. It would not have mattered if they were flying a HCLT or CLT, they simply did not have enough experience to be flying any type of rotorcraft. I have looked at the few accident reports out of the U.K and Italy, and all fall into the same category as above.

An important factor is to remember when I owned Air Command; we were selling 97% of all gyroplanes being manufactured at the time, which was also an 80% increase of gyroplanes being put into the realm of aviation. It was only natural that the gyroplane accident rate would rise with this 80% increase of gyroplane activity, and accidents had greater odds of being a Commander simply due to our overwhelming dominance of the market.

Today’s gyroplane accident rate had decreased mainly due to around an 85% decrease of gyroplane activity since I left the market.

For those that require the full account of each event listed, you can go the following FAA link and search with the date and location: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

I know that to some people these inconvenient facts go against what they want to believe about the Commander Gyroplane, but more importantly, they go against what they want YOU to believe about the Commander Gyroplane. But facts are facts, and reasonable people will see that.

Air Command FAA Accident Analysis Summery Report;

Report #1;
Name:.....................Joseph R. Benjamin
Date:......................06/26/2005
Location:.................Highgate, VT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...First flight.
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident: ....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #2;
Name:.....................Arthur Vernon Close
Date:......................12/03/2004
Location:.................Wilmont, OH
Killed:......................2
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...UNKNOWN
Winds:.....................8
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to avoid power lines.


Report #3;
Name:.....................James F. Gear
Date:......................01/01/2003
Location:.................Lansing, IL
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..UNKNOWN
Winds:....................16 gusts to 21
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training. Factor to the
.............................accident was the wind gusts.

Tom Milton added: I witnessed this fatality. The pilot had recently soloed himself, on a very calm day, without his instructor's consent. The fatality occurred at our club's Polar Bear event on Jan 1st. He claimed he had no intention of flying and was going to taxi his gyro down to the party. With his seatbelt and helmet unfastened, he took of on a very gusty day and was dead within seconds.


Report #4;
Name:.....................Anthony Spagnoletti
Date:......................09/12/1999
Location:.................Conroe, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................582 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:.10 (Not flown one year prior to accident)
Winds:...................Calm
Cause of Accident:...Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added: I believe the brother of the accident pilot is a member of this forum.


Report #5;
Name:.....................Gary Falen
Date:......................06/12/1994
Location:.................Georgetown, OH
Killed:......................1
Type:......................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:..8
Winds: Calm
Cause of Accident: ....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #6;
Name:.....................John Rains
Date:......................09/26/1992
Location:.................Eureka, CA
Killed:......................2
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........2
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds:.....................5
Cause of Accident: .....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #7;
Name:.....................Barney Schmidt
Date:......................08/29/1992
Location:.................Dumas, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........NONE
Total Hours in Type:.2
Winds:...................5
Cause of Accident:...Pilot's failure to acquire proper training. Factor to the
............................accident was 6600 density altitude.


Report #8;
Name:.....................Royce R. Rutter
Date:......................05/31/1992
Location:.................Washburn, IA
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........3
Total Hours in Type:...7
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #9;
Name:.....................Garry A. Lindsey
Date:......................08/04/1991
Location:.................Libby, MT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...NONE (First flight)
Winds:.....................Calm
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #10;
Name:.....................Donald R. Lee
Date:......................07/13/1991
Location:.................Quitman, MS
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:..5
Winds:....................3
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #11;
Name:.....................Charles R. May
Date:......................01/15/1991
Location:.................Tomahawk, WI
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....UNKNOWN
Training Time:..........NONE
Total Hours in Type:.12
Winds:...................2
Cause of Accident:...Factor to the accident pilot loss of control, had no
............................goggles and had ¼” of ice buildup over his eyes and
............................face after ground impact.

Tom Milton added: I spoke to a customer of mine that witnessed this accident. It's true about the icing. It was one of his first actual flights in the gyro.


Report #12;
Name:.....................Robert Lewis Demarco
Date:......................04/07/1990
Location:.................Okeechobee, FL
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........15 minutes
Total Hours in Type:..1
Winds: Calm
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #13;
Name:.....................Carl E. Hittle
Date:......................04/07/1990
Location:.................El Paso, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........2
Total Hours in Type:..2.1 (First flight solo, not flown 6 months after training)
Winds:....................6
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #14;
Name:.....................Guerra Oscar J, Jr.
Date:......................02/17/1990
Location:.................Hearne, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................447 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........6.5
Total Hours in Type:..7 (First solo flight)
Winds:....................Calm
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added:I witnessed this fatality at the PRA convention, as did many others. This accident helped lead to the P.A.S.S. card system at the PRA conventions.


Report #15;
Name:.....................Julian A. Sheimo
Date:......................01/22/1990
Location:.................Munster, IN
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..13
Winds:....................12
Cause of Accident:....Pilot making advanced maneuvers showing off beyond
.............................his ability.

Tom Milton added: This was only his second pattern after 2 or 3 runway passes. His instructor, John Potter, told him NOT to leave the runway. He wasn't ready for a pattern.


Report #16;
Name:.....................Preston E. Stanger
Date:......................01/11/1990
Location:.................Hansen, ID
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..23
Winds:....................8
Cause of Accident:....Pilot making advanced maneuvers showing off beyond
.............................his ability for sales demo flight, made abrupt right turn
.............................to low and impacted ground.


Report #17;
Name:.....................William E. Fifer
Date:......................11/13/1988
Location:.................Sullivan, IL
Killed:......................1
Type:......................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........6
Total Hours in Type:...6 (First flight solo, not flown 4 months after training)
Winds:.....................12
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added: I talked to a family member who told me that the pilot wasn't comfortable flying a gyro yet. He decided to "try it" solo.


Report #18;
Name:.....................William A. Cameron
Date:......................10/14/1988
Location:.................Hixson, TN
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...4 (First flight solo, not flown 4 months after training)
Winds:.....................Calm
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #19;
Name:.....................Robert M. Heibel
Date:......................09/21/1988
Location:.................Cottage Grove, WI
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........3
Total Hours in Type:...8
Winds:.....................8
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and pilots
..............................failure to meet the manufacturers requirement to have
..............................a minimum of 50 hours in type before attempt to fly
..............................532 Commander Two-Place solo.

Tom Milton added: If I remember correctly, the accident pilot had only a pattern or two of dual in this machine with an instructor that had only flown an A&S 18-A. I believe this crash was on his first solo and without his instructors permission. A customer of mine witnessed this accident.


Report #20;
Name:.....................Robert L. Glens
Date:......................07/23/1988
Location:.................Baytown, TX
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds: 4
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #21;
Name:.....................Jerome Lamb
Date:......................11/04/1987
Location:.................Meriden, CT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........8
Total Hours in Type:...9
Winds:.....................9
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and failure to
..............................control aircraft.

Tom Milton added: Jerome was a great guy but didn't want to come all the way back to Lansing for more training. (I don't think he had anywhere near the 8 hours listed, maybe 1 or 2)He had a local gyro pilot that was going to "watch him" and guide him through. According to a witness that I talked to, his local guy was late and Jerry decided to fly the runway, he "over ran his blades" and rolled into the ground on rotation.


Report #22;
Name:.....................John L. Watts, SR.
Date:......................07/27/1987
Location:.................Davenport, IA
Killed;......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...13
Winds:.....................18 gusting to 26
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and flying in
..............................high winds beyond his ability.

Tom Milton added: Watts was another great guy. John had free training with his purchase. Sadly, John was having a real bad time over-controlling the gyro. He was supposed to come back and fly with our CFI some more,(a forum member) but decided to try it at home. I talked to an eyewitness who described severe over-controlling and bunt. I really doubt this training time as well. I think he only flew with us for 2 afternoons (John, do you recall?)


Report #23;
Name:.....................Kenneth Ray Crews
Date:......................06/28/1987
Location:.................St. Francisville, LA
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...21
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident:.....Suffered heart attack during flight, and lost control.


Report #24;
Name:.....................David P. Langr
Date:......................05/15/1988
Location:.................Dodge Center
Killed:......................1
Type:......................447 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds:.....................12
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added:David got only enough dual to give him the urge to try it alone. His dual was free, but he never came back for the rest of his training. David called me the day before his fatal accident and told me he was flying and doing wing-overs. I encouraged him to come back for more free lessons and not to fly. The next day his hangar partner called to tell me he died doing a wing-over.


Report #25;
Name:.....................Wilter C. Samuels
Date:......................02/01/1987
Location:.................Paducah. KY
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..5
Winds:....................7
Cause of Accident:....Suffered heart attack during flight, and lost control.


There were five deaths in Commanders in the UK, and all five were being flown by people with no more than 5 hours of training, and then on very windy days. They all fit right in with the US accident report, right down the line. No training, or not enough, and flying in conditions exceeding their abilities.

I have always been very upfront about the dangers involved with maintaining, flying and obtaining proper training. I have always made proper training a top priority. Even though, people would still ignore even the harshest of warnings and the result is an accident or one waiting to happen.

There is much more to flying than learning to control an aircraft. Training is not just to show you how to control the vehicle; it is also about learning how the vehicle works, and why it works. Training is also to teach you to safely operate within the aviation community with other aircraft. It is an essential part of safe flying, and necessary for every type of aircraft.

Remember; Man is a two dimensional creature, while flying is a three dimensional task, of which man must learn.

.

[Kevin_Richey]

That list, while informative, does not include all fatalities in Air Commands.

I was told by fellow chapter members of one such that occured at the Albany, Oregon, airport in the time frame around late 1980's-early 1990's.

An attorney, previous flying time unknown, bought an A/C kit (whether from the factory or another private-party, is unknown). Built it, and then invited chapter members who also owned and flew A/C's to inspect his work. They did the brotherly gyro flier thing and pronounced the machine was built right.

This attorney proceeded to fly his creation, and shortly ended his life while doing so. His widow's attorney came sniffling around these fellow gyro fliers to try to blame them for their help in causing her husband's demise. Thanks a lot!

Dennis: You have posted this info several times over the years on this forum, and usually claim people are lying, and that they are deliberately mid-leading others by what they say.

I say you must consider that some people don't lie, and that when some express their opinion, they aren't trying to sling mud at you, or are even lying. This is a third dimension you should consider regarding what folks say.

You are to commended to show the lack of available training that these fatalities were a result of. You and the A/C dealers pleaded with people to get the required training.

But, with these listed guys, those pleas fell on deaf ears. I believe they wanted to fly as you did in your amazing video, like Superman! And, they didn't wanted to obey the laws of safe flight, which include adequate training, which takes lots of time and patience.

I have not flown an A/C or Bensen gyro. I have only balanced on the mains in an A/C, and found it very easy to do, compared to a Vancraft or Sport Copter gyro. I believe this is due to the shorter wheelbase of the Bensen/Brock/Air Command gyros enabling balancing quicker.

Stick movements could keep it balanced even when a puff of wind hits you and slow you down enough to start sending the nose wheel back down onto the runway. Just pull back on the stick, and the nose wheel comes back up, even if the nose wheel was almost down on the ground again. Cant' do that with a longer wheelbase gyro.

I have learned from others that the control movements of the stick in flight of those type of gyros are basically all within the diameter of a US quarter. To me, that is a hot stick. Pilots of A/C's in our local chapter told me that they found wind gusts while flying caused un-commanded inputs to the controls if they hadn't had their forearm tightly pressed into their thigh.

I wonder how many of those fatalities would have been prevented if only they had received the available training as well as less sensitive controls...

I'm not even going to comment on the high thrustline vs centerline thrust issue. Others have done so very extensively previously.

[BEN S]

I don't have a dog in this fight. What I will tell you is there are other companies STILL producing kits that have different flight charicteristics than the lowrider a/c that have much better safety records as per fleet hours. Do some research and you will see who they are and how their machines differ.
As for who and who not to take advice from on this board, I have always found Paul's posts to be intelligent, insightful and relevant. Some of the others seem to me to have an emotional basis for their advice.
Good luck, make the right decisions. If you don't know which is the "right" decision...do more research until you do. As we used to say in the service.."You got the rest of your life to get it right"
Ben S

[DennisFetters]

That list, while informative, does not include all fatalities in Air Commands. I was told by fellow chapter members of one such that occured at the Albany, Oregon, airport in the time frame around late 1980's-early 1990's..

As I did mention in the post, "I typed this report by hand, so if anyone finds an error, or knows of other accidents that can be added, or can add additional information to any of these events, please contact me.

So, if you can provide me the names, dates and details along with some proof to validate the event, I will be happy to add it to the list.

Dennis: You have posted this info several times over the years on this forum, and usually claim people are lying, and that they are deliberately mid-leading others by what they say.

That is a fact. There are some people on this forum that have lied about the Commander accidents, or exaggerate, which is as good as a lie. I have posted the facts here a few times, and will continue doing so when someone tried to distort the facts, intentionally or unintentionally.

I wonder how many of those fatalities would have been prevented if only they had received the available training as well as less sensitive controls...

Thats the first time anyone has commented that the Commander's controls are too sensitive. In fact, everyone always comments on how well the controls handle. Maybe you should finish your training in the Commander and actually fly it, then make a comment.

[PW_Plack]

They throw numbers around without the facts behind them, intentionally trying to mislead people into a false conclusion...in fact, it’s the same as lying to you...

Since this possibility has been raised, a couple of other facts might be helpful.

In this era, many single-place gyroplanes were flown without FAA registrations, and many mishaps never showed up in the NTSB database, despite aircraft damage which legally should have required a report. It is reasonable to assume that the NTSB records are far from complete.

The logged hours of gyroplane pilots in the 1980s and 90s in many cases were a small fraction of their actual experience flying gyroplanes. Hours flown in ultralights, gyrogliders, and even Marchetti and Parsons trainers without N-numbers aren't counted by the FAA. Basing a conclusion about the total training or flight experience of any of these guys on their official logbooks is shaky.

Air Command itself issued a service bulletin in 2001 which states, in part:

"Air Command International, Inc. has concluded through extensive flight testing that the centerline thrust design imparts increased pitch stability, less drag, and makes the machine easier for beginning gyronauts to learn to fly the single place Air Command autogyro."

This suggests to me the manufacturer has determined that a high thrustline relative to CG makes the machine more difficult for beginning gyronauts to fly the single-place Air Command autogyro.

But maybe most important, the low-rider configuration of the Air Command has not been sold since the 2000 model year. That means there is no one on this thread who is in competition with these machines in any way.

There is, however, one person on this thread with the motive of a legacy to salvage.

Like Ben, I don't have a dog in this fight. But I've learned that it's important to discern biases among parties in a debate as a step to figuring out who's got correct information. And I'm immediately skeptical when someone repeatedly cuts and pastes 2000-word propaganda pieces into threads just to make it more tedious to scroll to the comments of others.

[DennisFetters]

Since this possibility has been raised, a couple of other facts might be helpful.

In this era, many single-place gyroplanes were flown without FAA registrations, and many mishaps never showed up in the NTSB database, despite aircraft damage which legally should have required a report. It is reasonable to assume that the NTSB records are far from complete..

As I said, you are welcome to POST THE FACTS. Rather than speculate, just POST THE FACTS. Please, post any accedent here that is not in my report, along with the time, place and person involved, and some kind of proff, rather than speculate.

Air Command itself issued a service bulletin in 2001 which states, in part:

"Air Command International, Inc. has concluded through extensive flight testing that the centerline thrust design imparts increased pitch stability, less drag, and makes the machine easier for beginning gyronauts to learn to fly the single place Air Command autogyro." This suggests to me the manufacturer has determined that a high thrustline relative to CG makes the machine more difficult for beginning gyronauts to fly the single-place Air Command autogyro.
But maybe most important, the low-rider configuration of the Air Command has not been sold since the 2000 model year. That means there is no one on this thread who is in competition with these machines in any way...

The new owners of Air Command was in the hole after acquiring the company from the people I sold it to. They saw this as an opportunity to make money from people's hysteria, and they made a LOT OF MONEY selling CLT kits. Hell, I wish I would have thought of it and done it before I sold the company. They had nothing to lose and all to gain.... at that moment in time, and in fact, that was the largest amount of money they ever made off of Air Command, and pulled them through a dry spell. And sure, they have to sell the machine with the CLT conversion now, they cut their own throats in the long run. Now they can't sell that ugly machine.

There is, however, one person on this thread with the motive of a legacy to salvage.

And that is true, thanks to a few people that has mislead the public. The difference between what I write and what you write is simple. What I write has facts, dates and numbers, and what you write has none.

[Earthboundmisft]

Who cares about the records from the past. We did the before, and after hang tests.
Numbers don't lie.

[DennisFetters]

Who cares about the records from the past. We did the before, and after hang tests.
Numbers don't lie.

No one is arguing that the classic Commander is not a CLT.

The past is what we build on for the future. Forget the past, and you lose 97% of all knowledge.

[brett s]

No one is arguing that the classic Commander is not a CLT.

That's the point folks are trying to make - high thrustline + large pod + tiny hstab = susceptible to PPO.

When a design deficiency is known & not hard or expensive to fix, why not do it?

[Monarchist]

My take on it is as follows. Yes, CLT machines are more forgiving...but that doesn't necessarily mean HTL machines are inherently unsafe. People have flown and continue to fly HTL machines safely. For example, watch Birdy in his feral gyro on YouTube...HTL and he doesn't even have an H-stab, and it's just amazing to watch. Pure gyro porn.

An airplane analogy would be, say, high-wing vs. low-wing. High wing designs like a C-152 are more stable, much more forgiving in a stall, and very hard to make spin. A low-wing design like the Cirrus SR22, on the other hand, has an abrupt pitch-down in a stall and will spin in a heartbeat if you're not careful. I'd definitely wager more accidents happen in low-wing airplanes than high-wing airplanes. Yet low-wing airplanes are flown every day...safely...because people are trained in them and know how to stay away from dangerous situations.

So the difference is training. I would wager that even though there were doubtlessly a LOT of gyro accidents that were not reported as Dennis says, I'd wager that 99% of them are also "pilots" attempting to fly their craft with little to no training.

The machines look so simple that a lot of these people thought "how hard can it be?" The results were very predictable.

The same thing happens (though less frequently) with small helicopters. YouTube - ‪Stupid man attempts to fly a helicopter with no experience‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5BivSNiH8s)

I sincerely believe that CLT (and the H-stab) is probably the greatest thing to happen to gyroplanes in the last 30 years. But I think an HTL machine when flown by a properly trained and appropriately skilled pilot is not unsafe. But that training IS required.

So in summary, and back on topic...I definitely strongly recommend you convert the machine to CLT. It will make them machine easier to fly and more forgiving, and ultimately more sellable should you decide to trade up later.

-John

[DennisFetters]

That's the point folks are trying to make - high thrustline + large pod + tiny hstab = susceptible to PPO.

When a design deficiency is known & not hard or expensive to fix, why not do it?

It is not a design deficiency, it is a characteristic of type that you don't even concern yourself with after becoming proficient with proper training, like in any aircraft.

A tail dragger will ground-loop, but it's not a design deficiency, it's a characteristic of type.

Yes, all new gyroplanes of the future will benefit from CLT design. Mine does.

[SideKick]

Brian, I have been flying my lowrider A/C for three years now and I love it. It is just like yours except for the pod and I use the much heavier original SkyWheel rotors. I have been wanting to put on a pod but have decided not to in it's current configuration. I weigh in a 210 and did a double hang test on mine and it showed that my cg was 7" below the thrust line and that is after I raised my seat 4". So I think this winter I will try flipping the motor upright and rehang it to see if that raises the cg enough to put a pod on. I will talk to you further at Larry's Flyin.

Paul

[StanFoster]

John- That guy trying to fly that helicopter without training just made me cringe. I cant imagine even thinking of doing such. I am surprised he got as far as he did in that video. Luckily he wrecked down low, instead of getting a lot of altitude in it. He was throttling back and everything.

Stan

[Monarchist]

Stan, you got that right! Fortunately with helicopters at least it's not likely you'll get high enough to kill yourself (usually) when you crash. (The REALLY dangerous ones are the ones with a "little" training that can manage to somehow get out of ground effect!)

Gyros, on the other hand, are pretty easy to get off the ground and attain some serious altitude before things go to hell in a hurry.

So that poor schmuck wrecked his helicopter...I'm glad he did before he actually DID get training, because it's the mental attitude towards safety that would ultimately have been his undoing.

[Thechap]

Just thought I would bring everyone up to date. The gyro is still locked up in the garage. I have been taking lessons from Mr. Burgess and am scheduled for more training at 0800 hours this morning. Just one thing to say. I LOVE IT and I AM SO HOOKED!

Bryan

[stolking1]

Bryan,
Wow, you opened a flurry of emoitions from all. As I was reading I was wondering how long it would be before Dennis got into it. My thoughts are for what they would be worth..
You goal is to be safe. That is all that matters. You don't want to leave your wife with a memory of what life was with you around.
I think Dennis will always believe it is a safe design. But the CLT units seem to be a better opitions for living longer. It is not a fact if you were trained for a hundred hours or 10 hours..
Change your bird to the CLT and live a long and happy life..

Dennis, why did you sell the company?

JD

[choppergabor]

Wow I never thought I will type these words...........phew let me breath deeply....I think Dennis has built an exceptionally great machine at the time when clt was not a standard and the testings were not as elaborate and extensive and the results were not understood in the depth they are understood nowadays. Trust me I like nothing more than seeing him hammered (it's a personal thing going back to my beginning days on the forum) but I believe he has done a marvelous job with the AC and the proof is that it is still a sought after aircraft in Mod or Standard form. Even the best machine will be crashed when flown by idiots! Geeeeeeeeee I feel dirty now....did you guys have to make me defend him?????

[dineshkkk]

I am still a student (Australia) and I get what it means by CLT & HS. The beauty is when in flight I just dont feel any impact of applying power. More than this during my landings (still trying to master them:wacko:) I dont get worried about applying power to arrest my descent rate. Isnt this called safety.
I agree that not being CLT is end of the world, but the trick is being smart in getting aroud being non CLT.

[stolking1]

Gabor,
I see your point... Reading all his post sorta made me think of Obama.
Blame everything and everyone else.. I was waiting for him to tell me it was Bushes faught. Heck he still might.
He built a nice looking machine. CLT was not a key factor in design then.
However to fight that battle today once CLT is now understood better and to know if there is a simple way to bring them into that world why defend them but rather state the bird in its day was a key player but there has been improvements which make it a much safer ride.. hence you care about the person wanting to fly.. not something that killed a lot of people becsause you did not fully understand CLT and build it into the machine..
SAFTY is the key word...
Push safty.. keep this guy alive for to help others who follow his path..

[choppergabor]

CLT is now understood better and to know if there is a simple way to bring them into that world
Precisely! We have a much better understanding now. We have come a long way and at time I thing we do over react to certain things. Try to bring up RAF ROFL.............. sorry guys :) Anyways..... Every pilot has a different risk threshold and different flying skills. Therefor we can not generalize in this matter too much. All we have is statistics that can be twisted any which way. Just look at the community organizer in the White House. His team does all the spinning on even a 0 job creation/month statistics LOL!!!!!!!!!!! The way I see it a beginner pilot will have the best chance to make it if he is learning in a very stable and proven safe machine. (it is like having someone learn in a real helicopter Hughes 269 or a hobbycopter R22 "eat your hearth out Stan" :) ) The chances are greatly increased for a better outcome with the safer more forgiving aircraft as all newbies will make a bunch of potentially deadly mistakes. So if you own an AC and it is not CLT make it to be one! The ones who fly it standard probably swear by it. And they are probably right because their flying skills are good enough not to get into trouble like a newbie would just by not knowing any better. Not to say they are not safe aircrafts but to say if CLT is possible why not make it that way? But again. It is the owner's choice. Just as we choose to drive a Yugo or a Ram 1500. We do it for different reasons. One is great on fuel economy the other one is great on protection in a crash. All we can do is encourage the safety aspects and hope they will listen and consider :)

[stolking1]

We can only hope that safty prevails and not letting the desire to save money over rule a good decision.

I see you live in Port Orange... I use to live in NSB... flew my gyro out of there 25 years ago when Bill Parsons use to come over there. Then he moved to Flaggler..

Great place... took of one time and there was a water spout over the inlet just south of the inlet.. It was so cool to see from the Gyro...

JD

[choppergabor]

Yes Sir :) Nothing beats flying the ocean shores! Constant eastern wind and wide flat surface area in case of $hit happening! New Smyrna huh? 15 minutes from me :) Well Flagler isn't too far either. Lots of nice airports in the vicinity. Ormond, Flagler, New Smyrna, Daytona, even St.Augustine is only 50 minutes of flight. I love it here :)

[SideKick]

Bryan are you just now getting back to training and if so, are you going to be ready to solo by the time Bob's flyin comes?

[SpyderMike]

A low-wing design like the Cirrus SR22, on the other hand, has an abrupt pitch-down in a stall and will spin in a heartbeat if you're not careful.

Yikes. I don't know what SR22 you have been flying, but you might want to have it checked out. The stall characteristics of the SR22s I have flown are the OPPOSITE of what you are describing.

Mike

[RotorTom]

I second what SpyderMIke says ... I have nearly a thousand hours in SR22s and they are very docile. I have no idea what Monarchist is talking about? The platform is so stable that in a stall almost nothing happens.

[RotorTom]

So the difference is training ... But I think an HTL machine when flown by a properly trained and appropriately skilled pilot is not unsafe. But that training IS required.

The dangers of an unstable gyro can NOT be overcome by training. Poor stability and aerodynamics are not improved by training. Good training keeps many from doing stupid things ... but when power fails or certain turbulent pressures take hold ... all the training in the world will not stop instability from eating your lunch.

The biggest myth in aviation is that poor design can be overcome by training.

[Thechap]

Sidekick,

Yes I have been going to training. I think I have a couple things to learn yet before he will let me solo. I think I am getting close though. I did pass my written though.

When is the next fly in?

Bryan

[Monarchist]

@RotorTom: MTO Sport and Magni are both HTL designs, and having flown an MTO Sport just the other day, I know for a fact that it flies very easily and feels very stable.

So is it that all HTL machines are unstable or could it be that some machines are simply designed better than others?

I just don't think it's right to make an overarching assertion that "HTL is bad" when there are so many excellent examples with exemplary safety records.

-John

[SideKick]

Bryan, Bob Grove has his flyin this month. I'm not sure what the exact date is, It's usualy about a month after Larry's at Bob's Airport. Last year he had brought flyers when he came to Larry's Flyin, he didn't do that this year.
This time if you remember he went around and had everyone write down their contact info in his book. If I don't get a call soon from Bob I will give Cliff a call to find out and let you know.

[Steve Osborne]

October 1st Centre Airpark, N16, Centre Hall, PA

Congratulations on passing the Test Bryan

[Thechap]

Thanks Steve!

You be safe brother!

Bryan

[Redbaron]

One went down at my local airport in 2009! The faa reports it as mental problems and the pilots poor health for the pilots crash. I have no idea how they fly.

http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/ewp4uwntjizlfr55xlo5k4n21/M09172011120000.pdf

I second what SpyderMIke says ... I have nearly a thousand hours in SR22s and they are very docile. I have no idea what Monarchist is talking about? The platform is so stable that in a stall almost nothing happens.

[RotorTom]

Link not working.

[Redbaron]

should work now, atleast is does for me.

http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/ewp4uwntjizlfr55xlo5k4n21/M09172011120000.pdf




Link not working.

[OuterMarker]

I don't know about the CLT conversion on a 503 engine gyro. It is only going to fly around 40-45mph. Wouldn't it be better to run the VCG program and see where the VCG vs. engine thrust line is before changing anything? Also, even if the engine thrust line is a bit high, if you know by how much before you fly then you just don't fly in high windy, gusty days...fly within the limits of your gyro. Depending on the pilots weight, and with all the stuff on the gyro, on a hot humid day this gyro might not be able to get very high anyway....

Getting proper training......and the first 20 hours of solo time do with winds down the runway at less than 10 mph, which is mostly early mornings or evenings. Just enjoy the flight and get to know the gyro. I bought a low rider style and didn't have plans on converting it. I was "scared" into it… so I can't compare it to a low rider style. Educate yourself and ask questions before changing anything. Some changes make sense and other changes make me ponder. After reading what causes a bunt over, I now feel that with proper training, the Rotax 503 won't fly you fast enough to get the gyro into a critical situation airspeed-wise(rotor angle) especially on a day with light winds and no turbulence.

If you rotate the engine up you will need to move the engine back....many inches....so a new engine mount will have to be made. This WILL move the horizontal CG back. Make sure you move the engine back far enough so the control tubes don't touch the pull starter...ask why I know this...

Lastly, when I converted my gyro to clt, I also raised the engine to be able to accept a larger prop, knowing one day I would want to fly with a larger engine/prop package. This meant rotating the gearbox down.....do you see what is happening here? Every change I made effects other components......ask questions, challenge the answers, educate yourself BEFORE you change anything...in the end you will have a safe gyro designed for you because you thought through the issues before you cut one piece of metal. An example...what is the minimum clearance you want between the prop tip and the keel? Say you feel the distance is too close. If I want more safety in that area by increasing that distance, how will it affect another area? Do I want to be able to use different length props? If so, what does a larger prop diameter give me?

[Thechap]

OuterMarker,

Thank you for the advice. I appreciate it. I will continue my training and when my CFI feels I am ready he will sign me off. Hopefully soon!

Thechap

[OuterMarker]

I really like the trailer......I'd like to build something like that...do you have plans for it? How are the blades stored?

[Thechap]

OuterMarker,

Yes, the trailer does make it nice for loading and unloading. As for the blades? I have a blade box and I transport them in the back of my truck. I would like to have something like the ladder racks on trucks than I could attach to the trailer. Load the gyro, hook on the racks and then place the box holding the rotors.

Thechap

[Thechap]

As for plans? No, the trailer was made by someone else and came with the Gyro.

[SideKick]

outerrmaker, i'm curious where you get the 45 to 50mph. My lowriderr AC with a 503 is just like the Chaps ecept that I have heavier blades and no pod and I can easily run 60 and 65 sometimes 70mph. his shoule go faster with the pod and light DW Rotors.

[Gyroforme]

outerrmaker, i'm curious where you get the 45 to 50mph. My lowriderr AC with a 503 is just like the Chaps ecept that I have heavier blades and no pod and I can easily run 60 and 65 sometimes 70mph. his shoule go faster with the pod and light DW Rotors.

I was wondering about the speed too,I have a unmodified,low rider,with the 447,and thought it would be faster than that.Still have lots to learn tho!!!:wave:

[SideKick]

I was wondering about the speed too,I have a unmodified,low rider,with the 447,and thought it would be faster than that.Still have lots to learn tho!!!:wave:

When I had the 447 on mine with the heavy skywheel rotors and myself at 200lb's I only got 40 to 45mph wide open but the 503DCDI made all the difference in the world. Now I can back off the throttle to about 5800 and cruise at 50 to 55.

[OuterMarker]

you can see the photo of my gyro. A converted A/C upgrade to CLT. I am 220 lbs and fly behind a Rotax 503 with Skywheels rotor blades turning at around 375 rpms. My airspeed indicates 40-45 mph running the engine at 6350 rpm. I also use a Garmin GPS for flight instruments which confirms the airspeed indicator is accurate. If you look at the 503 specs, I am operating the engine at peak everything. The gyro will fly hands off and feet off. It is well balanced and fly’s wonderful...but that is the airspeed....and yes, I use a piece of yarn to always try to fly as clean as possible.

[SideKick]

you can see the photo of my gyro. A converted A/C upgrade to CLT. I am 220 lbs and fly behind a Rotax 503 with Skywheels rotor blades turning at around 375 rpms. My airspeed indicates 40-45 mph running the engine at 6350 rpm. I also use a Garmin GPS for flight instruments which confirms the airspeed indicator is accurate. If you look at the 503 specs, I am operating the engine at peak everything. The gyro will fly hands off and feet off. It is well balanced and fly’s wonderful...but that is the airspeed....and yes, I use a piece of yarn to always try to fly as clean as possible.

Max is 6800. My Ivo is pitched to 6200 static and 6500 in the air. My skywheels are 23' and only turn 335rpm. My air speed has also been calibrated with my GPS. The only thing I can figure is maybe you are not producing the torque you should be for some reason. Like I said I cruise at 50 to 55 at 5800rpm. I was in PA. last month at Larry Boyers Flyin. A bunch of us went on about a 45min trip thru the valley and since most of the guys were in RAF's with soobs cruising at 80mph, I opened mine up to try to keep them in sight. My AIS stayed sightly over 65 and on occasion went to 70.

[OuterMarker]

I grew up in NSB...still go there every year. Did my fixed wing training in NSB and Daytona...back in the mid-70's.

Sidekick..at 5800 rpm you are out of the power band for a 503 and you would be able to fly a bit faster because of the pitch of the prop....unless you meant to say 6800 rpm....then, the operations manual says to only use 6800 rpm for one minute. Have the drag of aux tanks slows me down a bit and adds rotor rpm also...even more if they are filled.

[SideKick]

I meant 5800 that is what I cruise at. Like I said at 6500 I can run 65 and sometimes 70mph AIS. I would love to have more fuel capacity than my 5gal seat tank, but if those side tanks cause enough drag to loose 20mph I will do without.

[OuterMarker]

I guess you have one heck of a flying machine then if you are flying that fast with the standard configuration instead of CLT. What type of prop and pitch are you running? A 503 burns 5.3 gallon/hr and with only a 5 gallon tank, that doesn't give you much time in the air if you land with reserves. That works out to about 12 minutes/gal.

[SideKick]

I'm running an IVO three bladed prop. I haven't measured the pitch. I tie my gyro down to my bobcat and open up the throttle and keep adjusting the pitch until wide open gives me 6200rpm then when I fly I get between 6500 and 6550. I think my 5gal seat tank actualy holds about 6gal. When I go anywhere i only fly for 45min. at a time. I have come back to my airfield after 45min and flown the pattern for another 15min just to get an hour off of a tank and still had a little fuel in the site gauge. So it must be about 6gal.
I still think you must have a thrust problem becuase before The Chap bought his AC, the previous owner and I had flown together when I had a 447 on mine and ran 40 to 45mph wide open and I couldn't come close to keeping up with him. He told me that he was only running at 6000rpm. So I know Brians will at least keep up with mine or even go faster because of the pod, the light dragon wings and I weigh in at 210 and I think he is about 170.

[OuterMarker]

I guess the prop, rotor and AUW differences can be the differences. I am using a 60" warp drive prop, Skywheels rotor and weigh 220 on a good day....

[hjajr]

I had a 447 back in 1984 on my First Aircommand and it didnt have anything but a air speed and it would cruise 60 MPH with the ultras prop and 23' Mc Cutchen rotors. I also have a low rider one just like it right now with the same set up but no prerotor which I need one and it is flying about 55 MPH at 6000 RPMs. I am sure I am a little heaver like 185 now as 170 back then. Once it is in the air it does very good. I would think that the warp drive prop might help me out that I am going to put on it soon. 60" but have no idea what pitch to set it yet. When I get ib the Aircomamnd EA 81 Subaru it is like getting into a race car compared to the 447. Harry