New and needing info!

[Sitnduck]

Total newbie here doing research and would like input on different gyro's in the marketplace.
So far the Dominator is my first choice with an Air Command Elite being
the back-up.
I've met with PRA 26 Sunstate and had the pleasure of riding in a 2 seat Dom. at this week's Wachula fly-in.
I would prefer buying something already built and a tried and proven
design. I also lean towards the pusher over tractor.
The 503 rotax was recommended as a good starter and I was told the 582 might be too torquey for a beginner.
I weigh in around 220 lb. and think I will become rapidly dis-satisfied
with the 503 performance.
To re-power the craft seems pricey down the road.
I will be training with a CFI in the future and do not plan to rush into solo since I realize inexperience kills.
Any actual comparisons on the 503 and 582 rotax in flight would be helpful. Thanks in advance! David H. :-

[GyroRon]

I was there too David and got to fly a 503 powered dominator. My last gyro was a 582 powered Dominator so I think it is safe to say I have flown both.

The 503 was surprising in it's performance to me. I saw a steady 600 fpm climb to 1000 AGL and it happily crusied along at 55-60 mph at 5800 Rpm. In ground effect at full throttle it was showing at least 75 mph.

The 582 machine I owned was loaded with extras like electric start, a pod, a larger fuel tank, more instruments, oil injection, hydro pre rotator, and I usually flew it with a full tank of gas. Performance wise it was about the same only slightly faster in top speed and just slightly faster in cruise. Climb was no better and the machine was not as nimble as the ultrawhite Ernie let me fly.

I do not agree that the 582 is better for a more advanced pilot.

Also I weight at LEAST 210 right at the moment......

I believe the 503 is the way to go only if you can live with the slightly slower cruise speed - maybe 5 to 8 mph slower - and you can also keep it simple and light. Adding electric starters, batterys, lights, more and more gadgets and do dads will make it a dog, so think about that. Of course you save alot of money going 503 basic over 582 loaded.

I haven't flown a Aircommand elite with a two stroke yet, so I can't compare them. I do know a tall tail makes a world of difference compared to the short Aircommand tails. And other than that and the much firmer suspension I bet they fly very much alike. Neither is a bad choice. I prefer the Dominator myself due to the better suspension and the fact that Ernie usually has parts ready to ship if you break something and he is always willing to help you if you need it.

[Heron]

You can also consider either a Butterfly or a Monarch!
The Butterfly is a true ultralite and can be transformed in the Monarch by adding power and pre-rotator (manual or electric)
It is easy to assemble, comes powder coated and will have many more upgrades that will make you smile very soon.
Check it out!
You can plug and play on this one . . .
thanks
Heron
Ah! The Monarch was present at the 100th aniversary of Flight and the only gyro there. It was picked to fly as one of the most significant aircraft and did 3 patterns in its time slot, per request, having flown 6 miles over open waters the crowd loved it!

[ToddP]

David,

Welcome to the forum. You will find the forums will be your best source of information. There are a million questions and most of them can be answered here. It sounds like you are definately on the right track.

Don't get in a huge rush and by all means get training.

Good Luck

[Sitnduck]

Thanks for the information.
So Ron, did you see the 3 newbie idiots wandering around on Sat.?
If so, I was the one in shorts and fire dept. shirt.
Sorry I did not get introduced!
The other 2 are also looking to get into gyros. The Butterfly is also
being looked at along with the Mosquito Hawk being bult in Lake City
by Bob Kopp.
I would like to see the craft first and talk to owners but my friends
may just go about this by pricing.
Heron, will you let me know if a Butterfly or Monarch is around the
Fl. area? My friend is a model airplane builder nut and likes the $600
plan for his finances.
I have found many kit items in life that do not fit together and am hesitant to build a gyro this early in my flying career.
This does not mean that I won't research it though and will try to
approach all designs with an open mind.
Yes, I noted the Mosquito hawk is not CLT and appears to be of
the Benson design with a large stabilizer that looks like Ernie's
design. It also comes with the Subaru EA-82 with 90 ponies.
Pro's and cons on these powerplants would be appreciated.
Thanks, David in St. Augustine.

[Heron]

David:
The Butterfly family of gyros is based in Boyd, Texas and the factory is at the Bridgeport Airport (22 miles northwest).
It consists today in 3 machines, all late gyro tech and upgradable very easy.
It will be available in Florida for demos pretty soon but, for sure at Sun-N-fun and Bensen Days where you can talk with the designer Larry Neal himself!
Right now we have kits ready to be shipped and if you start with the Butterfly, you can add the pre-rotator and new engine (582) later.
We are working the new webpage with pics and videos, specially the one around the Wright Monument and the take off hands off the stick and pattern all hands off.
Firts class craftsmanship and design on all products.
Thanks
Heron
If you order now maybe it can be delivered to you by those dates in april.

[ToddP]

Heron,

I couldn't help but notice you said "we" a couple times. Did your recent move to Texas involve going to work on the Butterfly?

Todd

[Heron]

;D Yes it does!!!
I will be spending time here working and learning with Larry and trying to do some training, weather permiting.
After much pushing and shoving I am a full time gyro person!
The idea is triangulating with Florida and Brazil and try to make the best of it . . .
Gyrowave is becoming a reallity!
Thanks
Heron

[GyroRon]

Sorry I left Saturday morning to head home. Must have missed you....

Bob Kopps machines are not bad for the money but the attention to detail is lacking in the ones I have seen. Also as you noted they are not CLT.

the Butterfly is - just my two cents - a spin off off a Aircommand. It is a good looking machine and a worth consideration. I don't know if it is any cheaper than a Dominator though.... Ernies Ultrawhites are around 12 grand built and ready to fly with a pre rotator and instruments and a nice suspension system. If you want to build it yourself or maybe just have him build it but you do the paint and instrument installation etc... he may knock the price down lower.

[Sitnduck]

Thanks for the replies.
I'm still struggling with powerplant issues vs. range of flight, ease of
maitenance and upgradeable craft.
What if I want to add a radio? A front enclosure for better lower drag
resisitance?
Does it seem dumb to target a Dominator with a 582 and have a more
upgradeable aircraft?
Also, I have got to ask why I don't see motorcycle engines being
converted for these aircraft? It's probably a dumb newbie question
but... gotta ask! :-[ ;D Thanks!

[Heron]

Ron:
I've got problems with my wireless connection thats why I did not reply earlier . . .
Spin off Air Command? You always did you home work well . . .what happened this time?
David:
Just wait a little longer and I think we can acommodate your gyro needs pretty soon and with some gravy too!
Heron
Do Butterflies have more fun?

[GyroRon]

Heron please let us all know what is significantly different between the butterfly and the Clt aircommand gyros? I have not seen a BF in person but judging from the pictures it looks very much the same.

Also not to knock the butterfly as it is a legal ultralight and a nice one at that. But we all know nearly ALL ultralighters push the weight limit by a little - sometimes a lot - and by adding a pre rotator to the butterfly, the Butterfly would compare more evenly to Ernie Boyettes " UltraWhite" 503 powered Dominators.

As of right now Ernie is offering a completely built, painted, test flown, turn key, Brand New 503 powered Dominator for between 12-12.5 grand.

Comparing the two gyros....

1, the Dominator offers a Pre rotator for the same price as the Butterfly without.

2, the Dominator is already built, test flown by the factory, and ready to enjoy. the Butterfly is a kit and the builder is typically the test pilot.

3, the Dominator offers a tall tail which cancels out the P factor effect which is IMHO a safer configeration over the shorter half span tail the Butterfly uses. ALSO the Horizontal stab on the Dominator is fully centered in the slipstream where the BF's stab is much lower and also flat plate rather than airfoil shaped. In a nut shell the Dominators tail wins.

4, the Dominator uses a long travel suspension that really smooths out rough field operations. It also is configured to allow the " Stop and Drop " landing, this is where you come to a flare and full stop a few feet off the ground and allow the gyro to drop vertically onto the gear. This type of landing is useful if your landing on a surface too risky to allow a normal roll out landing. The Butterfly I am not sure even has suspension of any kind - I am really not sure - But assuming it does have a suspension it is likely the Rubber bushing type suspension which is not very effective at softening the ride and certainly not going to take the hit of a Stop and Drop type landing.

5, the dominator comes standard with Basic instruments including a RotorTach. I am pretty sure the BF does not.

6, The Dominator comes standard with High performance Dragon Wing rotorblades. The Butterfly appears to come with Rotordynes or Rotorhawks - both good blades but not as high performing as the DW's.

So like I said the Butterfly is a great machine. I am not 100 percent sure a UltraWhite Dominator will meet the Part 103 weight limit without the Pre rotator - although I feel pretty certain it will - I am also not sure how long Ernie will keep selling these machines at this price. But as it stands I think the Dominator is the better buy. If it isn't please tell me why it isn't. 8)

[CLS447]

Heron

When I first saw the Butterfly at the Texas convention, I thought it was a CLT copy of the AC. I did know that Larry Neal was somehow associated with AC. From what I have been told Larry designed the CLT upgrade and CLT elites for AC. I thought it was strange that Larry was now competition for AC. Does anybody know the story?


I was just looking for my pictures, from the Texas convention, that I took of the Butterfly. When I find them I will scan and post. If my memory serves me, correctly it was very much like an AC; same rudder pedals, same rudder, same seat tank, same joystick, same nosewheel assembly, round tubing, etc., etc. After visiting the website today, I noticed alot of changes that make this machine unique.

Congratulations, on your new job and to Larry on a fine looking set of machines.

Ron,
I guess you could say all gyros are spinoffs of the Bensen.

[Heron]

As I said Ron, not the best home work of yours!
First:
It is Larry's creation the Air Command CLT, and I think Kerry Cartier's was the first one.
Second:
It does look like one another, they have the same basics and choice of materials. If you trade aluminum for chromoly you will have a Dominator look alike. Dominator has become a brand name for the tall skiny gyros.
Third:
It uses Dragon Wings with a pre-rotator (the manual already in use) and Brock's for better hand start. (known issue, no demerit)
Forth:
Complete instrument panel!
Fifth:
It will be non-elegant to compare products, the potential customer have now one more choice and arrangements can be made for options.
As the temperature goes up, so are the options and I will have to leave at that for the moment!
If you have the itch, come check and maybe you will leave as our area instructor/salesman (if the trip is not worth I will reinburse you gas)

Chris:
I do not have all the scoop on Larry/Air Command's actual status, sorry!
I do know Larry is working to grow the Butterfly family to a few models, each one with special features and lot of smiles on the way.
I hope I can add to this "gyro come to age" process!
We want the same: more, bigger, better, cheaper, agree? ;D
thanks
Heron

[Brent_Brown]

I think the MZ 202P would be lighter more power and cost less than the 503. Looking for a brack in the weather so I can put more time on my 202. IF it can fly my two place 410 pound gyro and me at 240 pounds and 36 pounds of gas it should do great on any thing lighter.

[GyroRon]

Heron I may have to come sometime and check you guys out..... We will see.

Brent, I flew over to Maxton the other day on one of my solo cross country flights and the guys there said no one flys gyros out of there. Maxton had a bunch on old airliner jets scattered about with two or three 747's. Is this the place you were telling me you fly out of?