Sport Pilot Question

[Kandace]

I have a PPL with a current BFR and Medical about 170hrs flying time but no gyro rating. Based on the current regs it is legal for me to fly an experimental gyro solo. FAR 61.31(k)

I do not wish to renew the medical next year due to the expense ( I just got my medical back after some medical issues so it is only valid for 1yr)

Can I fly a gyro solo under the Sport Pilot Regs (Drivers License) and be legal?

I have about 6hrs training so far......in a 2 place under the ASC exemption.

What would I have to do to be a legal Sport Pilot Rotorcraft-Gyroplane?

If any additional info is needed please let me know.

Thank you :confused:

[Al_Hammer]

My guess(from reading the paragraphs below) is that you would be ok to fly a gyro under sport pilot assuming you let you current valid medical expire.

http://www.sportpilot.org/sportpilot_rule.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/avr/arm/rulemaking/SportPilotRule7_19.doc

from 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration

[A medical is not required for gliders and ballons - RWI]

(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's
license. (1) A person must hold and possess either a valid medical
certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a current and valid U.S.
driver's license when exercising the privileges of-

(i) A student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges in a
light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon;

(ii) A sport pilot certificate in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider
or balloon; or

(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating while acting
as pilot in command or serving as a required flight crewmember of a
light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon.

(2) A person using a current and valid U.S. driver's license to meet the
requirements of this paragraph must--

(i) Comply with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person's
U.S. driver's license and any judicial or administrative order applying to
the operation of a motor vehicle;

(ii) Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third-class
airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application
(if the person has applied for a medical certificate);

(iii) Not have had his or her most recently issued medical certificate (if
the person has held a medical certificate) suspended or revoked or most
recent Authorization for a Special Issuance of a Medical Certificate
withdrawn; and

(iv) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would
make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.

[skyguynca]

As long as your medical expires then you can apply for the sport pilot license still needing a full written exam and check ride for Sport Pilot in the aircraft you wish to be signed off in. Now if you have a know medical problem and are denied a medical or had a medical revoked then the answer is no. In the reg it plainly states if you have a known medical condition you may not operate under a sport pilot license.

[pwendell]

Kandace,

I believe that in order to exercise Sport Privileges using your PP certificate and a driver's license instead of a medical, you are limted to flying light sport aircraft only in any category and class for which you hold a rating, unless you ceive instruction and an endorsement from a SP instructor. In other words, if you want to fly without a medical and hold a PP certificate with Airplane Single Engine Land rating, you will only be able to fly light sport airplanes. In order to fly light sport gyroplanes, you will need additional training as outlined in FAR 61.321 which reads as follows:

§ 61.321 How do I obtain privileges to operate an additional category or class of light-sport aircraft?

If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek to operate an additional category or class of light-sport aircraft, you must—

(a) Receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor who trained you on the applicable aeronautical knowledge areas specified in §61.309 and areas of operation specified in §61.311. The endorsement certifies you have met the aeronautical knowledge and flight proficiency requirements for the additional light-sport aircraft privilege you seek;

(b) Successfully complete a proficiency check from an authorized instructor other than the instructor who trained you on the aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation specified in §§61.309 and 61.311 for the additional light-sport aircraft privilege you seek;

(c) Complete an application for those privileges on a form and in a manner acceptable to the FAA and present this application to the authorized instructor who conducted the proficiency check specified in paragraph (b) of this section; and

(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from the instructor who conducted the proficiency check specified in paragraph (b) of this section certifying you are proficient in the applicable areas of operation and aeronautical knowledge areas, and that you are authorized for the additional category and class light-sport aircraft privilege.

[Kandace]

Thank you to those of you who replied I appreciate you taking the time.

skyguynca... I hate to point this out, but you are incorrect...due to the fact I have a PPL a certificate higher that Sport Pilot I do not need to take any written test. Nor would there be any checkride needed. Just a proficiency check with another instructor.

I would also like to mention that..... beleive you me I am fully aware of the medical requirements and as such I've not been denied I have a medical. I just don't want to renew it next year if I don't have to.

What I'm trying to find out is why as a Private Pilot I can fly my gyro solo, but as a sport pilot I need to meet FAA requirements, to me this makes no sense whatsoever.

Thanks again

[pwendell]

" What I'm trying to find out is why as a Private Pilot I can fly my gyro solo, but as a sport pilot I need to meet FAA requirements, to me this makes no sense whatsoever. "

Kandace,

I do think it makes some sense. Private Pilots are held to higher standards and must receive more training than Sport Pilots. They are, therefore, given more privileges than Sort Pilots. As a Private Pilot with an ASEL rating you can fly ANY SEL airplane. A Sport Pilot can only fly the aircraft, or the 'set' of aircraft, in which she has trained and endorsed. A Sport Pilot may be able to fly one light sport airplane, but not another.

Up until September of this year, any private pilot was allowed to cary passengers in any experimental aircraft, including those in a category/class for which he contained no rating. I think most of us would agree that it would be really stupid for a PP-ASEL to take his buddy up in a Rotorway Exec with no training. Up until a few months ago it would have been perfectly legal to do so.

[Heron]

Can anyone kindly post the limits on wheigth for LSA, also speed and range if there are limitations?
Thanks
Heron

[skyguynca]

Oh but you do if you only have a fixed wing PP which is what you said you have and with a expired medical you really don't have a valid PP either for you must maintain your medical to operate under your PP-ASEL so if your medical is expired your license is termporary void and you must maintain currency for your PP-ASEL to be valid so if your medical is expired and your not exercising your priviledges then you really can't use it as a basis to fly under SP either. To fly a gyrocopter under SP you have to pass the gyro written and practical for rotorywing - gyrocopter - Sport Pilot because your fixed wing rating is not rotory wing................PP is only good for experimental (but then you need a medical) and that is no longer true either. Now since the change you need type also for PP to fly experimental ie rotory wing for gyro and helicopter, I even read on the FAA site that for all the guys who bought the jets from Europe that a high performance rating is not enough anymore, that they also have to get a type rating to fly their own personal jet. I wish it were not true for I only have a PP-ASEL and now will have to get a gyro add-on which they just won't give me without the gyro written and check ride. I checked with the Oakland FSDO and then with several flight schools and that is the story I get. Got to believe the feds, they wrote it.

[pwendell]

Oh but you do if you only have a fixed wing PP which is what you said you have and with a expired medical you really don't have a valid PP either for you must maintain your medical to operate under your PP-ASEL so if your medical is expired your license is termporary void and you must maintain currency for your PP-ASEL to be valid so if your medical is expired and your not exercising your priviledges then you really can't use it as a basis to fly under SP either. To fly a gyrocopter under SP you have to pass the gyro written and practical for rotorywing - gyrocopter - Sport Pilot because your fixed wing rating is not rotory wing................PP is only good for experimental (but then you need a medical) and that is no longer true either. Now since the change you need type also for PP to fly experimental ie rotory wing for gyro and helicopter, I even read on the FAA site that for all the guys who bought the jets from Europe that a high performance rating is not enough anymore, that they also have to get a type rating to fly their own personal jet. I wish it were not true for I only have a PP-ASEL and now will have to get a gyro add-on which they just won't give me without the gyro written and check ride. I checked with the Oakland FSDO and then with several flight schools and that is the story I get. Got to believe the feds, they wrote it.


David,

I did a little research and here's what I found.

First of all, you absolutely don't need a medical to exercise sport pilot privileges with a Private certificate. If your medical has lapsed, you can't fly as a Private Pilot, but you can as a Sports Pilot. It's just like if you have a commercial certificate and only a third class medical. You can excersise private privileges with the third class medical, but not commercial privileges. (FAR 61.303).

Second, you do not need to take an additional knowledge test for a Rotorcraft-Gyroplane add-on to a private certificate. (FAR 61.63)

Private pilots do not require a rotorcraft-gyroplane rating to fly an amateur built experimental gyroplane solo, whether or not it qualifies as a light sport aircraft. As of 9/1/2004, they do require a category/class rating, or an alternative signoff, to carry a passenger. (FAR 61.31 k ii B

A PP-ASEL will need additional training and a signoff to fly a sport gyroplane without a medical, i.e., as a sport pilot. I really don't believe he will need to take another knowledge test, however. (FAR 61.303)

Check out: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

[pwendell]

Can anyone kindly post the limits on wheigth for LSA, also speed and range if there are limitations?
Thanks
Heron

1320 Lbs maximum gross, a bit more with floats. Max level flight speed is faster than any light gyro can currently fly, 120 knots.

[StanFoster]

Peter: In post # 9...you mentioned having "an alternative sign off to be able to carry a passenger."

Do you have any more information on what this would be? I have a PP SEL and do not have any other ratings. I would like to carry passengers legally again.

Stan

[skyguynca]

So, what you are saying then as long as my PP-ASEL is valid and I keep my medical then I can fly whatever I want experimental and carry passengers and it is legal?? And if I let everything expire, medical, bfr out of date and so on then I can just fly aircraft that fit sport pilot category and it is legal???? I just got off the phone with my local FAA and they say no way. IF your PP is lapsed in any fashion you don't have a license you can operate under. The only way to fly sport pilot acft is if your PP is valid, medical in date then your PP is current and you can operate a sp acft ,your saying if your PP is out then you can just jump in a lower class acft and fly because you are still operating under your PP, which in fact is not a valid license because you let your medical lapse, just the class of acft is different. I was told you just have to get a sp license if your medical lapses, but once it does your PP is not valid and you can not fly any acft but a ultralight legally........call your fsdo's I did because saying your operating a different class of airplane has nothing to do with your PP lapsing. If you choose to read below it shows that your PP is not valid and you can not exercise any priviledges of that including flying a lower class of airplane if your medical is out of date hence no license at all. Just because the airplane is a sp and you hold a invalid PP you can not fly it.


Federal Aviation Regulation



Sec. 61.23
Sec. 61.23

Part 61 CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS
Subpart A--General

Sec. 61.23

Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

[(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person:]
(1) Must hold a first-class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of an airline transport pilot certificate;
(2) Must hold at least a second-class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate; or
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate--
(i) When exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate;
(ii) When exercising the privileges of a recreational pilot certificate;
[(iii) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate;
(iv) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate, except for a flight instructor certificate with a glider category rating or sport pilot rating, if the person is acting as the pilot in command or is serving as a required pilot flight crewmember; or]
(v) Except for a glider category rating or a balloon class rating, prior to taking a practical test that is performed in an aircraft for a certificate or rating at the recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot certificate level.
[(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a valid medical certificate:
(1) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking-
(i) A sport pilot certificate with glider or balloon privileges; or
(ii) A pilot certificate with a glider category rating or balloon class rating;
(2) When exercising the privileges of a sport pilot certificate with privileges in a glider or balloon;
(3) When exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate with a glider category or balloon class rating;
(4) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with-
(i) A sport pilot rating in a glider or balloon; or
(ii) A glider category rating;]
(5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(6) When exercising the privileges of a ground instructor certificate;
(7) When serving as an examiner or check airman during the administration of a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device; or
(8) When taking a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device.
[(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's license.
(1) A person must hold and possess either a valid medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a current and valid U.S. driver's license when exercising the privileges of-
(i) A student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon;
(ii) A sport pilot certificate in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon; or
(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating while acting as pilot in command or serving as a required flight crewmember of a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon.
(2) A person using a current and valid U.S. driver's license to meet the requirements of this paragraph must--
(i) Comply with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person's U.S. driver's license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle;
(ii) Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third-class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate);
(iii) Not have had his or her most recently issued medical certificate (if the person has held a medical certificate) suspended or revoked or most recent Authorization for a Special Issuance of a Medical Certificate withdrawn; and
(iv) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner. ]
(d) Duration of a medical certificate.
(1) A first-class medical certificate expires at the end of the last day of--
(i) The sixth month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate for operations requiring an airline transport pilot certificate;
(ii) The 12th month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate for operations requiring a commercial pilot certificate or an air traffic control tower operator certificate; and
(iii) The period specified in paragraph (c)(3) of this section for operations requiring a recreational pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate (when acting as pilot in command or a required pilot flight crewmember in operations other than glider or balloon), or a student pilot certificate.
(2) A second-class medical certificate expires at the end of the last day of--
(i) The 12th month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate for operations requiring a commercial pilot certificate or an air traffic control tower operator certificate; and
(ii) The period specified in paragraph (c)(3) of this section for operations requiring a recreational pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate (when acting as pilot in command or a required pilot flight crewmember in operations other than glider or balloon), or a student pilot certificate.
(3) A third-class medical certificate for operations requiring a recreational pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate (when acting as pilot in command or a required pilot flight crewmember in operations other than glider or balloon), or a student pilot certificate issued--
(i) Before September 16, 1996, expires at the end of the 24th month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate; or
(ii) On or after September 16, 1996, expires at the end of:
(A) The 36th month after the month of the date of the examination shown on the certificate if the person has not reached his or her 40th birthday on or before the date of examination; or
(B) The 24th month after the month of the date of the examination shown on the certificate if the person has reached his or her 40th birthday on or before the date of the examination.

[pwendell]

Peter: In post # 9...you mentioned having "an alternative sign off to be able to carry a passenger."

Do you have any more information on what this would be? I have a PP SEL and do not have any other ratings. I would like to carry passengers legally again.

Stan

Sure Stan,

It's in FAR 61.63. Here's the relevant section:

(k) Category class ratings for the operation of aircraft with experimental certificates: Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person holding at least a recreational pilot certificate may apply for a category and class rating limited to a specific make and model of experimental aircraft, provided—

(1) The person has logged at least 5 hours flight time while acting as pilot in command in the same category, class, make, and model of aircraft that has been issued an experimental certificate;

(2) The person has received a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who has determined that he or she is proficient to act as pilot in command of the same category, class, make, and model of aircraft for which application is made; and

(3) The flight time specified in paragraph (k)(1) of this section must be logged between September 1, 2004 and August 31, 2005.

So, the way I read it, this section provides a means to get a category/class rating for your RAF 2000 that will allow you to carry a passenger under 61.31.

When this first came out in September, no one knew what what kind instructor was authorized to provide the endorsement. I still don't, but, hopefully, your local FSDO does by now, or maybe one of the gyro DEs or CFIs does.

You certainly qualify for this.

[Cobra Doc]

61.31 k ii B specifically says "solo". I really wish everyone would forget that reg exists, it's a real killer. I've already proven that. For a Private Pilot to exercise Sport Pilot all they need to do is operate a Light Sport qualified aircraft. 1320 max t-o and 120kts straight an level are correct. If a pilot HAS NOT had a medical revoked or denied, they may let the medical lapse and exercise the privleges of Sport Pilot in aircraft for which they are are qualified. Last time I checked with the FAA, which was last week, at the moment there are only production aircraft currently qualified to be operated by Sport Pilots. These aircraft still have to be maintained as "Standard Airworthiness". If the rest of these half-truths and speculations keep being spread more people will end up dead and even worse, their estates are going to face some major law suits. No wonder gyros have been uninsurable for so long.

[pwendell]

[QUOTE=skyguynca]So, what you are saying then as long as my PP-ASEL is valid and I keep my medical then I can fly whatever I want experimental and carry passengers and it is legal?? And if I let everything expire, medical, bfr out of date and so on then I can just fly aircraft that fit sport pilot category and it is legal???? I just got off the phone with my local FAA and they say no way. IF your PP is lapsed in any fashion you don't have a license you can operate under. The only way to fly sport pilot acft is if your PP is valid, medical in date then your PP is current and you can operate a sp acft ,your saying if your PP is out then you can just jump in a lower class acft and fly because you are still operating under your PP, which in fact is not a valid license because you let your medical lapse, just the class of acft is different. I was told you just have to get a sp license if your medical lapses, but once it does your PP is not valid and you can not fly any acft but a ultralight legally........call your fsdo's I did because saying your operating a different class of airplane has nothing to do with your PP lapsing. If you choose to read below it shows that your PP is not valid and you can not exercise any priviledges of that including flying a lower class of airplane if your medical is out of date hence no license at all. Just because the airplane is a sp and you hold a invalid PP you can not fly it.


Federal Aviation Regulation


[QUOTE/]

David,

Before 9/1/04 any private pilot could legally fly any experimental and carry passengers unless specifically prohibited by the aircraft's operating limitations, and there was some debate about that as well. This was discussed many, many times on Norm's forum and at least one member got a written ruling from the FAA confirming it. After 9/1/04, a PP can no longer carry a passenger, but they can fly any experimental solo. 61.63 is very clear.

There is a table in FAR 61.303 that clearly shows that PP may fly a LSA of the category/class in which he holds a rating with a valid US drivers license and no medical. In this case he will be flying as a sport pilot and will be limited to day VFR, a single passenger, 10,000' MSL, etc. The FAR is unambiguous and several people have already been flying under this rule. The EAA mag had an article about an older private pilot with a lapsed medical that flew his J3 (which qualifies as a LSA) legally on September, 1st.

You are correct in saying that without a medical, you can't exercise private privileges, but you can exercise Sport privileges.

This link points to 61.303. It is clear.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=3a7538acf807c7b1af08567fbad26ffb&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.10.1.2&idno=14

[pwendell]

61.31 k ii B specifically says "solo". I really wish everyone would forget that reg exists, it's a real killer. I've already proven that. For a Private Pilot to exercise Sport Pilot all they need to do is operate a Light Sport qualified aircraft. 1320 max t-o and 120kts straight an level are correct. If a pilot HAS NOT had a medical revoked or denied, they may let the medical lapse and exercise the privleges of Sport Pilot in aircraft for which they are are qualified. Last time I checked with the FAA, which was last week, at the moment there are only production aircraft currently qualified to be operated by Sport Pilots. These aircraft still have to be maintained as "Standard Airworthiness". If the rest of these half-truths and speculations keep being spread more people will end up dead and even worse, their estates are going to face some major law suits. No wonder gyros have been uninsurable for so long.

Cody,

I don't necessarily think that 61.31 k B is a good regulation, but it is the rule. Anyone flying a gyro should have received adequate training, but it isn't required if they fly solo in an experimental gyro, or a helo for that matter. I have a gyro rating. I think anyone who plans to fly gyros should get a gyro rating from a quality instructor, but I didn't write the rules.

What half-truths and speculations am I spreading?

[StanFoster]

Peter: Thanks so much for clearing that up. Looks like I just need to get an instructor to sign me off. I have one I in mind I will contac.

Two last questions....does this instructor have to be certified for gyroplanes? or can a fixed wing instructor suffice?

Stan

[pwendell]

Peter: Thanks so much for clearing that up. Looks like I just need to get an instructor to sign me off. I have one I in mind I will contac.

Two last questions....does this instructor have to be certified for gyroplanes? or can a fixed wing instructor suffice?

Stan


Stan,

It's wasn't clear that a CFI is authorized to make this signoff, since it will actually add a new category/class (make and model) rating to your certificate. If you find out what is required, let everyone know.


Stan,

I have a question. Why don't you just go ahead and get you're rating? Since you own your own 2 seater, it should be pretty cheap and easy. It only requires 9 hours of dual (only 6 if you don't want to fly at night), 10 hours solo with some x-country, and a practical test. I'm sure you've logged all the solo time already. If you can get an instructor to teach in your machine, it shouldn't cost more than $50 an hour. With a rating you will be able to fly any gyroplane anytime with however many passengers are required. You will also be able to fly any sport gyroplane without a medical if you decide to let yours lapse. (Of course, since your much loved RAF is not a light sport gyro, I don't expect you to give up your medical anytime soon!) A rating might also make it easier/cheaper to get insurance when it becomes available.

I'm just curious

[Heron]

Thanks Peter
Heron

[StanFoster]

Peter: You are right... I should just go and get my rating....but....if I can get just signed off....that will do for now.

Stan

[Cobra Doc]

Peter;
At one time that reg had a valid reason to exist: there was no training available for gyros. Now it's just an excuse for some one to ignore Part 91 entirely and go kill themselves and sometimes a friend or relative.

Stan;
Either give the guys at AAI a call about training requirement for additional ratings. They made everthing thing easy put the FAA requirement in their training programs.