little wing vs raf2000

[bshamblin]

flyers,

i have 4 hours training in raf2000 ( excellent) and want to consider flying a little wing?? what would be the differences in proceedure for flying fron a grass strip?? what are takeoff/landing/ cruise differences for a tractor design. i weigh 250 lbs. thansk,

much to learn in nc

[barnstorm2]

Bshamblin,

Did the RAF have a horizontal stablizer?

[Harry_S.]

There's a bit of difference between the two...for an experienced flyer.

I would suggest you get experienced in one or the other, say 100 hrs. and then transition to the other.

Experience in both is great but mixing training for a newby is not a good idea.


Cheers :)

[bshamblin]

i flew in 2 different raf 2000's and neither had a horizontal stabilizer. both flew very well, although im aware of the horizontal stabilizer issue.

my issue is thinking i can afford to build a 1 place 582 littlewing and trust the dual ignition rotax.

genarally im hearing the tractor design is more stable re any pushover issues. what about landing stability?

much to learn in nc

[pwendell]

There's a bit of difference between the two...for an experienced flyer.

I would suggest you get experienced in one or the other, say 100 hrs. and then transition to the other.

Experience in both is great but mixing training for a newby is not a good idea.


Cheers :)


What Harry said :)

[richard lidke]

Hello B.Shamblin Littlewing Booster Rich here. I don't know what ratings you now have, but I'm sure with your comments you are interested in having safe flights whatever you fly. I have flown fixed wing for over 200 hours, in low wing high wing, multible wing, hot air baloons, Goodyear blimp, Stearman, pietenpole etc. I have been at it for over 10 years. I now have my ground instructors license, and about 10 hours training in the RAF2000. When I first saw the Littlewing, it became clear to me that this was the aircraft for me. I like the non-stalling characteristics of the airframe, and the pitch stable length of the airframe with its wide tail and nice big vertical fin. This is one item which helps eliminate the PIO's and other problems common to short coupled frames with little stabilizer surface. When I am building the surfaces, I can assure you that the horizontal stabilizer almost takes up a full 4 x 8 sheet of plywood in its jig form. Combine this with an aircraft length of over 18 feet with its front pulling engine, and you have one heck of a longitudinally stable aircraft. I will seek more instruction in my aircraft, fortunately with two seats this is easily accomplished with the Littlewing. Put the instructor in the back seat, and you upfront, and you have a winning learning combination. By the way, you will also find it is a lot less confining then training jammed up against the instructor as when you would be in an RAF. If you have the video of Ron flying his LW, you can easily see how stable this unit is, also go to Mentone this coming year and see it fly. You will be convinced of the airworthiness of this performance oriented flying beauty. Have fun in building, and keep us posted of your progress. Littlewing Booster Rich. :) :)

[Ruidoso Ron]

Richard,
I will be building an LW-4 for those very reasons. Haven't seen anything yet from anybody who has completed a 2-place, flown the restrictions off, and carried a passenger. No doubt that it will do it; just haven't seen any yet. Do you know any? I know that Andy Keech carried 300# of fuel on his long distance flight. I hope to come visit the "factory" soon, and see your progress.

[richard lidke]

:) :) Hi Ron. As far as I know Andy Keech's Littlewing was a two place, he had removed the fromt seat to put the big gas tank in for his long cross country. I'm sure that that tank weighed a lot more when full then the "average guy". I hope you will build a littlewing, and you are welcome here at any time. Look on the Yahoo Maps stuff to find my house. My address is 10296 North Range Road, Rolling Prarie Indiana 46361. I'm just off highway 39 which runs between New Buffalo Michigan and La Porte Indiana. It is directly adjacent to exit #1 on Highway 94. And three miles north of us 20 between Michigan City, and South Bend Indiana. If you are on highway 39 (239 in Michigan), look for road 1000 North, turn and go east to the first road which goes north, it is on a county line jog, and there is a sawmill sign with my name on it as "engineer". This is about one mile south of the 94 exit in Michigan, where you will then be in Indiana. My phone number is 219-778-2708. Have fun and hope to talk to you soon. Littlewing Booster Rich. :) :)

[Ruidoso Ron]

Richard, I will take you up on that offer! I had previously corresponded with James, and he put me on to this site. It has been a valuable asset for a newbie. It looks like you guys have settled on the Great Plains VW conversion, and it appears to be a great choice. I would be leaning that way if it wasn't for my 7,000' field elevation. I have recently stumbled on to the Wilksch Airmotive WAM-120 Turbo Diesel, which looks very promising. I think I would prefer it over the Rotax 914, if I can reconcile the weight. It has a lower specific fuel consumption, and would be convenient to fuel enroute with either Jet A or diesel fuel. I have a lot of time to worry about that because I haven't even started construction yet. January 29 & 30 I am going to Oshkosh for the EAA oxy/acetelene welding school, and will probably pass through Chicago both ways on the crowd killer. May try to jump ship there, and drive over to visit. If you see Oprah, ask if she has a vacant seat on her helicopter. Happy Thanksgiving!

[richard lidke]

:) :) Hey Ron, when you swing through this area (I don't know where you are coming from) I live close to Ophra's house. Just a small trivia note. Please let me know when you will be in the area, so that I can host your visit. Littlewing Booster Rich. :) :)

[Ruidoso Ron]

Thank you Rich, I will. Will be a while. Will let you know. Did you look at the WAM-120 site. Curious what you guys think.

[richard lidke]

Ron, try this one too. VW Engine center USA. See my post on this somewhere in the forum, or on my name file. http://usa.vw-engines.com/ Diesel Air Limited http://www.dair.co.uk/ I like the sound of a diesel too, could you please post or send me the e address? pilotnow2003@yahoo.com Thanks Littlewing Booster Rich. PS look for my seats in phots Jim McNielly will be posting soon on the LW 2+2, they turned out real nice.

[Ruidoso Ron]

Rich, the site is www.wilksch.com. I heard back from Seppo Vihavainen, in Finland, today. He has built a beautiful LW-5, and sent some photos of it. Not sure how to post them, but I'll try. Says he has had the engine on order since early 2003, and still doesn't have it. Doesn't sound too encouraging.

[The Rock]

Wilksch put a WAM-120 in a Thorp T-211 (a two place, fixed wing pictured in my avatar). I used to own the type certificate for this aircraft and am still doing some work for the current owner, IndUS Aviation. Wilksch had the T-211 with the WAM-120 at the 2003 PFA Rally in England, and I had hoped to fly it there, but the company was reluctant to let me do so. I did talk to some of the engineers at Wilksch and found out that in order to maintain the proper weight and balance that they added in excess of 30 lbs of lead to the tail. The T-211 was certified with an O-200 Continental that weighed approximately 230 pounds firewall forward, exclusive of the prop. So, I "guestimated" that the WAM-120 installation must have weighed in excess of 270 lbs. It is my understanding that this was an early prototype engine and they have since decreased the weight, but I highly doubt that the engine installation could ever come in less than the Little Wing's recommended maximum engine weight of 200 lbs.

[Ruidoso Ron]

Cliff,
I am going to Dallas next month, and hope to go by Indusav and hopefully see the Thorp there. I corresponded with the fellow in Finland who was going to put the WAM120 in his Little Wing. He has been waiting since early 2003 for the engine, and still doesn't know when to expect it. I asked what he was going to do to get the weight and balance in line, but haven't heard back from him yet. I think you are correct regarding the weight.

[The Rock]

Ron,

Ram Pattisapu, owner of IndUS Aviation, has flown the T-211 with the WAM-120, and can give you more information on the engine than I can. The T-211 with the WAM is based in England, not in Dallas.

[Ruidoso Ron]

Thanks for the info. You saved me some time!

[richard lidke]

:) :) I have looked at the WAM product, but not in great detail as of yet. I like what I see. A two stroke (no valves or tappets to adjust), three cylinder unless there are more hiding somewhere, and a top crankshaft which helps keep centerline thrust easier. I didn't yet notice the price. It's pretty obvious that a diesel will weigh more than a gasser. The pistons and crank and rods are usually heavier because the compression ration is much higher in a diesel, thus compression heat of combustion. One nice thing about a two stroker with a blower, it is less sensative to altitude deration as naturally aspirated engines are. Don't think that because the weight is over 200 it is the end for the Littlewing, Ron's radial is over 200 also. You just move the landing gear ahead to compensate for the change in cg. I would suggest checking with Ron on the actual weight and the forward cg revision, he would be your best source of information in this regard. Did your friend clue as to what the price of the WAM was? I'd sure be interested. Here's an interesting note, ever consider pontoons, diesel and Littlewing? Boy wouldn't this be an attention getter! Have a good day gents. Tailwinds Friends, Littlewing Booster Rich. :) :)

[Ruidoso Ron]

Rich, the listed price for the WAM is 12,000 British Pounds, which equates to approx. $23,000 at the current exchange rate, or about the same as a Rotax 914. It's not clear if this includes the engine display and data logger (neat stuff!) The weight is about 220 pounds, but this includes everything except the prop. Generally, a diesel will require a larger battery, so this will add a little more, but it could be moved further aft for weight and balance considerations. I intend to find out if it is possible to mount a hydraulic pump on the vacuum pump drive. Hydraulic pre-rotator appeals to me. I also like the Diesel Air product (100HP), but it isn't offered with turbo-charging, and is already pushing the weight limits. They say they will turbo it in the future, and estimate the rating at 150 HP. Maybe, by the time I have to make this decision, there will be several options. Meanwhile, there is always the 914! Pontoons would be fun, but there's no water in New Mexico! Maybe skis?

[richard lidke]

:) :) Ron, looks like WAM is WAMMING me out of its class because of cost. I could get that good old round engine for this much money, and then some. Too bad. A lot of us would really be interested if the price were in our ballpark. Boy the possibilities are sure good, but then, I must build within my limits to complete the project on time and in budget. Thanks for posting the response to my questions. I'll try to post as I come closer to a confirmation of the direction I am headed. Looks like Jim McNeilly is headed towards a VW with redrive from out west. Lots to do. Will stay in touch. Tailwinds, Littlewing Booster Rich. :) :)

[Ruidoso Ron]

Rich, I agree with you about the price. The density altitudes at my airport are almost always in excess of 10,000' by noon during the summer. I looked at the performance specs on several two-place gyros, and they almost all show a service ceiling of 10,000'. I decided that if I was going to build a gyro, I would also like to be able to fly it! After reading hundreds of postings on the Subaru, I don't think I want to trust my life to one here in the mountains. So I guess I'll have to bite the bullet, and pay the price to play. This leaves the 914, and (possibly) a turbo diesel. Jukka Tervamaki has calculated that everything should work (W&B, etc.) with the LW-4 and the WAM120, assuming it ever becomes a real product. I would sure welcome the input from anybody who has any other recommendations. I have been flying for 40 years, and I don't consider myself a bold pilot. I guess that means that I'm just an old pilot, and I'd like to keep it that way!

[richard lidke]

:) :) Ron, I have a friend who has restored two corvairs. He formerly owned a Chevrolet garage. ONe of his cars has a turbocharged six cylinder aircooled Corvair engine. If you want, I could ask him what power output that the charged model had, maybe this would be a winner for your project too at your altitude location. Let me know friend. Booster Rilch. :D

[Ruidoso Ron]

Rich, You bet! I would appreciate any input that I can get. As I say, this all may be a bit premature, but eventually I am going to need an engine. Will come see you next month.

[gyromike]

Here's the source for all your Corvair info:

William Wynne - The Corvair Authority (http://www.flycorvair.com/)

[Brent_Brown]

Do not use the turbo for flying the valves will not last. I have a corvair now sitting on my tractor project. weight with oil 225 ready to fly. 69" warp drive. should pull as hard as any 100 HP motor made today. William is doing some R&D with a turbo but on the 110 heads he had it on the test stand and it pulled like a mad go to the web site anf see. William is a great guy and sells complete motors if you are not into that. My motor is at $4000 buck still need the wire and that will put it at 4500 ready to fly.

[Ruidoso Ron]

Brent and Mike,
Thanks for the input. I'll start to research the Corvair. I think it will take a whole lot of positive input to overcome my suspicion of auto conversions. I really feel that I am going to need a turbo here, and reliability is my primary concern. Mike, I used to live in Lafayette, and kept my Super Cub at Abbeville for a while. Say hello to Ron and Dawn Wolf, and Don Gillam for me. Is Peyton Enlow still flying gyros?

[gyromike]

Brent and Mike,
Thanks for the input. I'll start to research the Corvair. I think it will take a whole lot of positive input to overcome my suspicion of auto conversions. I really feel that I am going to need a turbo here, and reliability is my primary concern. Mike, I used to live in Lafayette, and kept my Super Cub at Abbeville for a while. Say hello to Ron and Dawn Wolf, and Don Gillam for me. Is Peyton Enlow still flying gyros?

Ron,

Peyton is still flying gyros, and he still has his Breezy. Peyton bought a two seat side by side gyro a couple of years ago from Micheal Stump.

I see Ron and Dawn all the time at the airport. Is your Super Cub the one that Ron is currently restoring?

Here is a picture of peyton I took a few months ago:

[Ruidoso Ron]

Mike,
I have sent you a pm.
Ron

[richard lidke]

Rich, You bet! I would appreciate any input that I can get. As I say, this all may be a bit premature, but eventually I am going to need an engine. Will come see you next month.
:D Ron, will see Bill or call him in this regard for you. Looking forward to seeing you when ever you can come. I'm still looking at engines too! There are so many to choose from, but price and reliability are my two main concerns. Keep in touch friend. Littlewing Booster Rich. PS you will see something worth visiting for! :) :)

[Ruidoso Ron]

Rich, I corresponded with Ron H. about this WAM, and he feels it's not a real product yet, besides being too heavy. I emailed sales at Wilksh last Friday requesting an update, and haven't received a reply yet.............Not a good sign.

Brent, Thanks for the comment on the turbo Corvair valves. I am going to research this more.

Have shifted my thought process back to the 914 for the moment, but am keeping an open mind.